Schmidt Bender Short Dot

[brianksain]

Are any of you using these? Opinions?

My take:

Pluses - Awesome glass, true multi-task optic, tough.

Minuses: EXPENSIVE, heavy.

In a Larue mount, with the #7 reticle ... it's the shizzle for a cop sniper's AR.

BK

[NousDefionsDoc]

What are you running it on?

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by brianksain

Are any of you using these? Opinions?

My take:

Pluses - Awesome glass, true multi-task optic, tough.

Minuses: EXPENSIVE, heavy.

In a Larue mount, with the #7 reticle ... it's the shizzle for a cop sniper's AR.

BK

How many cops use an AR as a "Sniper Rifle" ???.................wouldn't an Remington 700, or H&K PSG be the rifle of choice for SWAT/SRT snipers ???

[Sinister]

I love the (MILSPEC) version of the Short-Dot with one exception: eye relief is critical (too close or too far and you get severe shadowing).

I've found the best mount for it is probably the Larue.

Dave

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Sinister

I love the (MILSPEC) version of the Short-Dot with one exception: eye relief is critical (too close or too far and you get severe shadowing).

I've found the best mount for it is probably the Larue.

Dave

The LaRue SPR mount?

TR

[Tuukka]

Having used the Short Dot at ranges from 1 - 350 metres. The optic quality is typical excellent S&B quality. At ranges from 1-100 metres the sight is very fast to use. But, due to to the reticle being in the first focal plane and the reticle type, the field of view is "busy" at longer ranges than 100 m, especially on smaller or or badly visible targets.

The new 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE, in essense a Short Dot II, should be arriving here in a matter of weeks. It has a slightly longer tube and most importantly, the reticle is in the second focal plane and the reticle is also the FD7.

[FearTheCats]

Brian, great to see you here. I get my gear intel at 10-8 Forums (where I've been lurking forever, someday I'll scan my ID and ask to be let in). When I bought my patrol carbine last year and had enough ching to get any optic I wanted, I knew from 10-8 that I had to move heaven and earth to find a Short Dot. I'm only a part-time auxiliary deputy and have to come up with my own equipment, and I'll only need a rifle once in the next 20 years probably, but that one time, I'll really need it. I had to call literally a dozen Schmidt & Bender dealers to find the only factory-new Short Dot in-country last August, and I'm glad I did.

It works very much as advertised and the only problem is that when it goes from a cold car trunk to a warm humid building, the lenses fog over as would any scope. No prob--just use the sling to lever off the LaRue SPR-E, flip up the iron, and drive on. At first I had my Short Dot in a regular SPR, but my Neanderthal eyebrows were colliding with the scope tube, so I went with the -E. I've mounted and dismounted probably 50 times without losing zero.

I have the CQB reticle with the mil dots, actually hashes, in the center. With 11 illumination detents on the rheostat, the red dot is visible in any light. 8 is the default setting, 7 is better for night, 9 for bright day. I looked through a Nightforce 1-4x in daylight and could hardly tell which part of the reticle was supposed to have been illuminated. Not so with the Short Dot--you can see that dot anywhere. With the dot off, the reticle itself is good to go during daylight, or at night with my SureFire 910 white light.

I'm no LE sniper, and 82ndtrooper is right that precision marksmen are better off with Rem 700s etc. (very few departments have or can afford a $9,000 H&K PSG), and my carbine is a Smith M&P-15 M4gery with the service-grade chrome-lined barrel--not the epitome of tackdrivers. However, in our rural county, SWAT is what you do to flies when you are trying to sleep. Whoever's on duty must handle whatever goes down, with whatever is in the patrol car. So, I occasionally work on head shots at 100m, at low and high magnification, dot on or off, with both duty loads and match loads. Especially with the latter, I'm confident that if Johnny Jihad shows up with a bulky vest, I can interrupt his train of thought while staying out of range of flying nuts and bolts.

I took Larry Vickers' basic carbine class in October and my Short Dot helped me fire quickly while actually HITTING STUFF, which Larry seems to feel is important for some reason. He is also the one who pushed S&B to give us the Short Dot in the first place. When we backed up to the 100yd line, he acknowledged that those who had irons, EOTechs, Aimpoints etc. might be at a disadvantage to those who had scopes, but that's life in the big city. I agreed, as I cranked the ring to 4x. One of the other guys took a long look through my Short Dot and exclaimed in wonder, "it's so CLEAR!" That's the best thing you can say about a piece of glass.

I can live with the weight because I know it adds to durability and waterproofing. Only two picky things would I change: keep the dot small at all magnifications because on 4x it covers too much space, and extend the auto dot shutoff to 12 or better yet 24 hours so I can turn it on at the beginning of the shift and know it'll be there later. As it is, I have to remember to tell the deputy I'm riding with to "whoa, pop the trunk, I gotta turn my scope back on." Sight alignment and trigger control works with any sight, but you're only as good as your equipment allows you to be, and I'll take all the help I can get.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

How many cops use an AR as a "Sniper Rifle" ???.................wouldn't an Remington 700, or H&K PSG be the rifle of choice for SWAT/SRT snipers ???

Not necessarily. You might want to watch this discussion for a while. You may learn something.

Tone is hard to determine on the internet, so I am wondering why you put quotation marks around sniper rifle. And if you really want to discuss the way they do things, I've found they respond better to "LEOs" than "cops".

Now, if you have a question reference the S&B Short Dot sight, feel free to ask. If you want a class on Selection of Sniper Weapons Systems for Law Enforcement use in the United States, start another thread. I'm sure Brian and others will be glad to assist.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by brianksain

Are any of you using these? Opinions?

My take:

Pluses - Awesome glass, true multi-task optic, tough.

Minuses: EXPENSIVE, heavy.

In a Larue mount, with the #7 reticle ... it's the shizzle for a cop sniper's AR.

BK

Do you want a marksman or an assaulter?

Expecting both with a "multi-task optic" IMO is not a good idea. Especially with the amount of training (or lack thereof) some departments accomplish yearly.

Assault, support & security.

Why don't we make all the assaulters marksmen and wait the bad-guys out? (oops, we tried that at WACO)

FearTheCats,

I'm no LE sniper, and 82ndtrooper is right that precision marksmen are better off with Rem 700s etc. (very few departments have or can afford a $9,000 H&K PSG),

Very few departments require/need an HK "PSG". 99.99% of the countries LEO's would do just fine with bolt guns sold at Wal-Mart.

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Not necessarily. You might want to watch this discussion for a while. You may learn something.

Tone is hard to determine on the internet, so I am wondering why you put quotation marks around sniper rifle. And if you really want to discuss the way they do things, I've found they respond better to "LEOs" than "cops".

Now, if you have a question reference the S&B Short Dot sight, feel free to ask. If you want a class on Selection of Sniper Weapons Systems for Law Enforcement use in the United States, start another thread. I'm sure Brian and others will be glad to assist.

Tone was not intended to be sarcastic, merely that designating an AR as a precision rifle intended for "Sniper" use would appear to be a poor choice, unless that rifle was a Crane/Knights Mk12 or Mk11 SPR system. The average Leo carries an Armalite or Bushmaster. As was stated, not the epitome of precision rifles for longer distance precision fire. The task could, I suppose, be done with an AR, but with an AR platform that was task designated for "Sniper" use utilizing a Harris bi-pod and higher powered glass, a heavy bull type barrel and most likely a Leopold. But, this would not be an entry weapon system platform. Hence the question of the use of the AR as a designated sniper system.

Would the S&B Short Dot be the best choice for a sniper ?? From what I've read and it's design specs, It wouldn't be my first choice for sniper duty. But, then again, I'm only speaking from the aspect of my hunting experience with high powered scopes and limited experience with red dots and hollowgraphics. So yes, I'm out of my depth with a multi task optic. It would seem that for the cost of the S&B Short Dot, a police dept could purchase two AR's and Two ACOG's for the cost of two S&B's.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I believe the average engagement distance for police marksmen is somewhere around 75 meters.

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I believe the average engagement distance for police marksmen is somewhere around 75 meters.

With that distance, then an AR should be just fine. As for the use of the S&B, that's another question. Parallax and eye relief would be my first concern, even at 75 meters. In daylight, I'd want a 4x with 1/4 MOA and a rather large objective lens adjustable to varying distance. I'm relating this to hunting game, not any experience as a military or LEO sniper duty. The targets are both organic and moving none the less.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I believe the average engagement distance for police marksmen is somewhere around 75 meters.

NDD-
If 75m is the range for most engagements, lots of practice wit hiron sights at ranges over that (100-200m) would be great to get the muscle memory prior to fitting optics, wouldn't it. Actually at that range, you could throw your pointy stick with the nail and get 80% accuracy. I'm way out of practice, and a bit old school - but still think that good iron sight marksmanship, to train yourslelf to get a good picture is crucial before moving over to optics, create the good habits prior to adding technology.

just my .02, fire away.

[FearTheCats]

Yes, x_SF_med, I agree with learning irons first and training on them regularly. I shoot highpower competition with my match AR so I get practice at 200, 300, and 600 yards. I still stick with irons when shooting bullseye pistol, not least because that is what you must master to go Distinguished. If you can do irons, you can DO optics, but not always the other way around.

82ndtrooper, the Short Dot is among the more forgiving optics in the eye relief department. You can move it fore and aft in the LaRue mount, and try different collapsible stock positions, until you find the sweet spot. It's true that you can buy about two ACOGs ($900-1100 list price) for the price of one Short Dot ($2200 list price). This is not always how to make a good purchasing decision, e.g., I can buy eight Lorcin .380s for the price of the TRP 1911 I carry on duty, but why would I?

I have no experience with the ACOG and therefore no opinion on the ACOG, other than to note (1) all models are fixed magnification. The USMC RCO is 4x and not what I would prefer for 25m and in. Compact ACOGs are available in 1.5x which is not what I would prefer for 50m and out; and (2) ACOGs are tritium powered and battery-free, but they are not immortal. Short Dots use a $7 watch battery that lasts for months. Should the battery run out, I can replace it in one minute. Should I not have one minute or another battery, my Short Dot is still a riflescope with a simple helpful reticle. I think I've made the right choice and I'll bet my Short Dot outlives any weapon I put it on.

I can't comment on LE precision rifles and optics, having no experience with those either. Then again, it's academic because I'm not authorized to carry bolt rifles on patrol. Whether or not my AR is optimum for every task, it's the only game in town and I must learn to win with it. I know I can reliably hit opponents located anywhere from the end of the flash suppressor to 100m downrange with what I have, so I'm deliriously happy.

I just try to get the most suitable equipment I can, and learn to win with it at any task I might encounter. This thread is supposed to be about the Short Dot, and based on my experience so far, my Short Dot is a reliable force multiplier for my patrol carbine; I'd buy it all over again; and I'd recommend it to anybody for that mission.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

With that distance, then an AR should be just fine. As for the use of the S&B, that's another question. Parallax and eye relief would be my first concern, even at 75 meters. In daylight, I'd want a 4x with 1/4 MOA and a rather large objective lens adjustable to varying distance. I'm relating this to hunting game, not any experience as a military or LEO sniper duty. The targets are both organic and moving non the less.

Tone -as I said, hard to read on the 'net. No big deal.
Shoot a lot of organic game through glass partially obscured by curtains while they are holding a hostage do ya?

I don't know if the S&B is the best glass for it either. I would guess that would probably be up to the guy laying behind the gun.

They do things differently than we do.