Bad guys testing the limits, or something else?

CPTAUSRET · 08-23-2006, 10:53

An orchestrated attempt to test the limits, or something less sinister? Too soon to tell.

http://www.business-standard.com/com...IN&autono=4644

CPTAUSRET · 08-23-2006, 10:59

Follow up. Twelve passengerss detained from plane.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._Diverted.html

mugwump · 08-23-2006, 11:11

Fox says they were all "accessing cell phones."

CPTAUSRET · 08-23-2006, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugwump

Fox says they were all "accessing cell phones."

Mere stupidity...or something else?

CPTAUSRET · 08-23-2006, 13:18

Follow up.

That was enough to cause U.S. air marshals aboard the flight to break their cover. Fight attendants ordered the passengers to heed the orders of the marshals, the official added.

An airline source in Amsterdam said the passengers who were arrested were looking into plastic bags and were busy with their cell phones.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/23/schiphol/

CPTAUSRET · 08-23-2006, 13:39

Testing the limits!

Certain groups test the limits to see if they can get the FAM's to give themselves away, and to see just how far they can go before the FAM's show their hand. That may have been what transpired aboard this aircraft, too soon to know, though.

Big Daddy · 08-24-2006, 04:23

I agree. This was not an act of stupidity but more of a testing of the system IMHO.

**Eagle5US** · 08-24-2006, 06:09

Either way...

Good on them for stepping up with a "show of authority" if not a "show of force".
Stuff like this just pisses me off-like the two "Asian" (i.e. Muslim / Arab living in Asia) students escorted off the aircraft after a virtual passenger mutiny last week-"We're just a couple of lads wanting a little fun and excitement" when they were speaking in Arabic and disobeyeing the instructions of the ground crew in pre-flight.

All these sorry bastards need a clearer message

Eagle

smp52 · 08-24-2006, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle5US

Either way...Good on them for stepping up with a "show of authority" if not a "show of force".

Agreed.

Quote:

Stuff like this just pisses me off-like the two "Asian" (i.e. Muslim / Arab living in Asia) students escorted off the aircraft after a virtual passenger mutiny last week-"We're just a couple of lads wanting a little fun and excitement" when they were speaking in Arabic and disobeyeing the instructions of the ground crew in pre-flight.
Eagle

From what I've pieced together reading through articles on Google news, an old lady who observed the duo speaking in a foreign language got nervous (they were speaking Urdu, not Arabic. They didn't know Arabic) and she approached them asking what they were travelling for. The guys replied they were making a day trip and the lady thought that was odd. She got up and left and talked to more passengers resulting in a domino effect. None of the articles are really consistent with lots of he-said, she-saids in there.

I didn't read where the dudes disobeyed instructions of the ground crew.

In any case, once you have a mob dynamic going with people getting paranoid and hysterical, from a business perspective the only option unless you want to fly a whole aircraft for 2 guys, is to get them off, check em out, maybe give a coupon or so for their inconvinience and re-book them.

The Becker Posner blog had some interesting econ based analysis on profiling. One of the suggestions was to profile, but also make it pleasant/with incentive; Those pulled aside for more scrutiny but innocent get some kind of minor compensation.

**Eagle5US** · 08-24-2006, 11:13

Thanks for your clarification-after reading two articles that were "similar" I read no more regarding their circumstance.

Eagle

Cincinnatus · 08-24-2006, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by smp52

The Becker Posner blog had some interesting econ based analysis on profiling. One of the suggestions was to profile, but also make it pleasant/with incentive; Those pulled aside for more scrutiny but innocent get some kind of minor compensation.

I don't know how incentives would work, though I'm all for trying them. Just being polite and competent would go a long way.

In the late eighties, I was living in Heidelberg and flying through Franfurt fairly frequently. I have dark hair, was tan, wore a moustache, and was usually travelling alone. That was apparently enought to trigger their profile and I was taken aside, questioned, and my luggage searched (with me watching) several times. The German security folks were invariably polite, pleasant and professional and put things back where they found them.

TSA, with some exceptions, has been rude, condescending and inept, once missing a weapon that I'd forgotten was in my bag (so their ineptness does have it's upside

), another time apparently thinking that the spare batteries for my flashlight were some sort of detonater. They have also left my belongings scattered all over the counter (on one occasion intermingled amongst those of another passenger), and been insulting to my father (NEWSFLASH - eighty year old men with badly swollen legs are going to be a bit slower putting their shoes back on. Yelling at them is unlikely to help the situation.)

Courtesy and competence would probably suffice, though coupons might be a good idea.

smp52 · 08-24-2006, 11:57

Quote:

Just being polite and competent would go a long way.

I totally agree. When authorities get tensed up, people tend to react similarly. A smile, calm words, easy going nature, etc. go a long way in making an experience pleasant. Hell, even handing a bottle of cool water after a pat down or a drink coupon for the bar would put a smile on someone's face, too.

The twelve arrested have been released. People need to follow instructions and authorities took the right measures. I was on a domestic flight and a dude got up as soon as the plane landed and started to unload stuff from the overhead compartment. Flight attendents issued a stern warning and ran up to put him back in the seat.

The two dudes kicked off are being compensated.

Don't know if alcohol could have been a factor in any weird behavior, they did booze up on their day trip. Another option for the pilots could have been to announce they were taking control and checking the guys out, a minor delay would occur. If everything checked out, they would be flying out with them (as I believe has occured on US flights at times). If people are running around paranoid with no authority figure taking charge soothing their fears (after all the proper SOPs have been followed) then remaining passengers with concerns need to get off. In both cases, either taking the passengers off, or leaving them on after a pat down (they didn't have any luggage), confidence in their [pilots and security] actions and measures need to be validated to calm the paranoia. Individuals are free to make their own choices of staying on or getting off at that point.

Speaking of misunderstandings, I really don't know what to say about this one from Chicago.

Quote:

He later told officials he'd lied about the item because his mother was nearby and he didn't want her to hear that it was part of a penis pump, Scaduto said.