Automatic Assault Rifle Schools

**Team Sergeant** · 06-22-2006, 13:32

Here's a question for all:

Where in the United States does anyone teach/instruct the use of "fully" automatic fire for an assault rifle or submachine gun to non-military personnel (Fed State Local LEO's)?

Has anyone out there been to a school and received a diploma in the use of "Fully Automatic Fire"????

(US military excluded)

Team Sergeant

azmg · 06-22-2006, 13:42

TS-

I have taken a class from Tactical Response (out of Camden, TN). Class and Diploma listed as "Tactical Sub-Machine Gun". If I recall it was a two day class and utilized suppressed M-4 platform weaponry supplied by a vendor local to you (I took the class here in Tucson).

Endorphin Rush · 06-22-2006, 13:46

Been to the NRA's Select-fire school. The course did not deal with auto fire only, but did require the use of fully auto weapons. One of the qualifying standards was to be able to demonstrate placing one 28 round magazine onto an 8 1/2 x 11 inch target at 10 meters.

If this is relevant to what you seek, I'll be happy to provide any info that I can.

**Team Sergeant** · 06-22-2006, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endorphin Rush

Been to the NRA's Select-fire school. The course did not deal with auto fire only, but did require the use of fully auto weapons. One of the qualifying standards was to be able to demonstrate placing one 28 round magazine onto an 8 1/2 x 11 inch target at 10 meters.

If this is relevant to what you seek, I'll be happy to provide any info that I can.

This is exactly what I was looking for....

(Sorry azmg, a tactical shooting taught by many that have never been in harms way doesn't cut it. Hope you enjoyed the course.)

NRA Select-Fire Instructor

This school is designed for the select-fire firearm with full-automatic capability and applies to both submachine guns and rifles. Classroom presentations cover how to teach basic fundamentals of marksmanship, handling, zeroing, practical range drill development, and liability issues. Range work covers marksmanship, operating techniques, use of cover, various firing positions, pivots and turns, use of the safety circle concept, reloading under stress, firing on the move, multiple threats, decision-making, reduced light threat identification and firing, semi-automatic, burst and automatic firing trigger control, and handgun transition techniques. Students design a tactical course of fire and are responsible for developing a lesson plan and running fellow students through their course at the end of the week. In addition to the above mentioned equipment, the following are ALSO necessary for this school:

Duty-type, law enforcement select-fire rifle or submachine gun capable of being fired single shot and full-auto, equipped with a sling.
At least three magazines with a capacity of 20 rounds or more.
1,500 rounds of duty or training rifle ammunition.
100 rounds of duty or training handgun ammunition.

I'm going to send a few emails to the NRA LEO training staff and ask some hard questions.......

TS

Warrior-Mentor · 06-22-2006, 15:17

Why does anyone not Military need this?

**Team Sergeant** · 06-22-2006, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Why does anyone not Military or LEO need this?

The US military (conventional) does not employ automatic assault weapons fire (3 shot burst only). It's just not effective and definitely not discrimatory.

My question is what situations does civilian Law enforcement think its necessary to employ full automatic fire?

jbour13 · 06-22-2006, 17:19

I have a friend that does a class in the Northern Va area. His is oriented towards the consumer that would otherwise never get a chance to rock'n'roll full auto. He's very thorough and safe. His classroom time is about 10 times longer than the range portion.

**Team Sergeant** · 06-22-2006, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbour13

His is oriented towards the consumer that would otherwise never get a chance to rock'n'roll full auto.

I have nothing against this sort of venture. It's very entertaining!

TS

Smokin Joe · 06-22-2006, 19:12

TS,

Just FYI, I do know an LEO who has used an M-4 on full auto in an Officer involved shooting. It was effective...beyond that, I would rather fill you in on the details via PM or phone.

jbour13 · 06-22-2006, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

I have nothing against this sort of venture. It's very entertaining!

TS

He loves it, makes him some bookoo bucks. Pretty suprising the amount of macho men that think it's easy until they crack off about 10 rounds and stitch the ceiling.

As an NRA certified instructor, I prefer teaching women. They listen well and don't try to impress me. My favorite thing is teaching a husband and wife at the same time and showing Mr. Tough Guy that his wife is a force to be reckoned with.

They (the man) learn to be really nice from that point on.

CoLawman · 06-22-2006, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Why does anyone not Military need this?

I know of several instances where Law Enforcement agencies were engaged in fights with individuals also using fully automatic weapons. I can speak personally of two incidents.

The need has always been there and is becoming more prevalent with the use of fully automatic weapons by gangsters. It is well documented that the military has been infiltrated by gang members and they are coming out with training that makes them formidable opponents to law enforcement. A recent shooting in California, involving a gang member with military training, resulted in the death of the officer. The gangster was armed with a fully automatic weapon and the officers, initially, were armed with their handguns.

Fully automatic weapons have been part of LE arsenal since the Thompson machine gun. The MP5 was a popular choice for SWAT during the 80's and is still quite prevalent in LE.

The ATF agents on this site can speak to the percentage of gangsters with fully automatic weapons. I can only speak of my community, and the weapon of choice is the sawed off shotgun, but the badguys arsenals include fully automatic weapons.

Our officers now have the choice of carrying a shotgun or an AR15 (with training and quals.) This is the norm. Automatic weapons are generally in the hands of SWAT.

TS I will research what training they receive. When I was SWAT it was through the FBI and LAPD. At that time we trained with short bursts. Have no clue on what is being taught and by whom the last 10 years. Will get back to you on it though.

CoLawman · 06-22-2006, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The US military (conventional) does not employ automatic assault weapons fire (3 shot burst only). It's just not effective and definitely not discrimatory.

My question is what situations does civilian Law enforcement think its necessary to employ full automatic fire?

TS, I do not believe that law enforcement is contrary to the military. I know of no qualification course where point and spray is used.

I do recall the LA shootout with the bank robbers, where the SWAT team arrived in a car and jumped out using this method as suppressive fire to get the badguy to stop his point and spray method. It worked and was captured forever on video.

Basicload · 06-23-2006, 04:39

Actually the LAPD SWAT officer was firing an MP-5 and he was not suppressing the guy, he was engaging on automatic into the street under the car in order to skip the rounds into the target. he was extremely successful, striking the robber in the inner thigh where the robber had no IIIA coverage like he had on the front of his legs and causing a femoral bleed which incapacitated him almost instantly.

Automatic fire as a primary method of engagement with 9mm sub-guns is widely taught. The lack of terminal effects and controlability the MP-5 series on auto lends itself to automatic fire. That being said, I'll take a 5.56 on semi-auto any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

HK training division teaches full auto and burst fire in their Sub-gun course as well, Team Sereant.

**Team Sergeant** · 06-23-2006, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basicload

HK training division teaches full auto and burst fire in their Sub-gun course as well, Team Sereant.

Basicload,

No kidding, I wonder why they do that?

In my 20 years of combat arms all teaching with subgun and assault rifle to the man (instructor) all said the same thing, automatic fife from these sort of weapons is not effective and definitely not discrimatory.

Do all you LEO's posting really think that every local, state and Fed's get enough "fully automatic fire" training to employ this sort of fire?

Does anyone want to venture a guess why no one in the military uses automatic (assault rifle) fire in battle?

TS

06-23-2006, 08:14

I would guess...

You need to account for every round. Fighting in populated areas, you don't want stray rounds hitting someone who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If support fire is needed I would imagine a SAW or CAS would be more useful if available?

Conserve ammo because if you dump all your ammo on one threat, another might be right around the corner? I'm guessing for LEO this is less of a problem.

j