05-09-2006, 15:24
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#1
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Quiet Professional
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Bonds and The Babe
Bonds is one away, what do you guys think?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-09-2006, 15:33
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#2
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Bonds is one away, what do you guys think?
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I think Bonds is a juicer who should be banned for life.
Let's review; a great player betting on baseball, BAD, a mediocre player getting himself a record through better chemistry, GOOD!
He is nowhere close to the Babe (or Hammerin' Hank) in talent or personality.
If Bonds were on fire in front of me, I wouldn't piss on him to put it out.
Other than that, I like him just fine.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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05-09-2006, 15:36
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#3
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
If Bonds were on fire in front of me, I wouldn't piss on him to put it out.
TR
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I second that. Talk about the biggest prick in baseball too. I say wipe the record...he's truly no where near the Babe.
This is an interesting article I read over the weekend: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594 Sure Barry, I bet you had no idea what they were.
Last edited by The Dave; 05-09-2006 at 15:43.
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05-09-2006, 15:51
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#4
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Ok, from what I have read, The Babe wasn't exactly a model citizen either. It is not a popularity contest, it is about knocking the ball out of the park.
As for the juicing, I am digusted yet offer this:
If they had been available back in the day, is there any doubt the old guys would have done it? Ty Cobb I know would have, he didn't care about anything but winning. Would The Babe not have?
At the end of the day, it is illegal, so he shouldn't be allowed to hold the record. But should they be illegal?
"mediocre" player? COME ON Boss! He may (probably) be an ass. He may not deserve the record. But mediocre? The juice may help, but the fact is he has hit 713 of them, that ain't in dispute. I could go to the plate with an IV of the stuff running wide open in both arms and not hit 7 in 20 years. Cal Ripken Jr. could juice all day long and not hit 713. The man can play ball.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-09-2006, 16:05
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#5
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Dave
I second that. Talk about the biggest prick in baseball too. I say wipe the record...he's truly no where near the Babe.
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Just sticking to Hall of Fame caliber players, the biggest prick in baseball history is undoubtedly Ty Cobb. Among the current crop, Pedro Martinez stands out in assholiness.
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Airbornelawyer is offline
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05-09-2006, 16:17
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#6
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I remember when Bonds used to play at Three Rivers stadium, he was a decent hitter then, kindof wish he still played for the Pirates. 
I think another factor to consider is how many other players are juicing that can't approach the HR record. I'd estimate around 25%, just looking at the physiques of baseball players now compared to 20-30 years ago. Plus how many pitchers have intentionally walked Bonds? Given all that, I'd say Bonds is a pretty phenomenal player.
This might be a sore spot, but in anythiing challenging, people who have been there before always say how much harder it was before such and such. This may be true in some cases, but it doesn't necessarily discredit the accomplishments of the current contenders. Just my $.02
edited to add: I think Bonds accomplishment is still noteworthy.
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05-09-2006, 16:21
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#7
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
"mediocre" player? COME ON Boss! He may (probably) be an ass. He may not deserve the record. But mediocre? The juice may help, but the fact is he has hit 713 of them, that ain't in dispute. I could go to the plate with an IV of the stuff running wide open in both arms and not hit 7 in 20 years. Cal Ripken Jr. could juice all day long and not hit 713. The man can play ball.
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That may well be so, but if you are going to compare Ruth and feel that he would have a weakness for the same excesses, might he not also have profited from better training, treatment, care, etc.?
Look at Ruth's record, as the below article does, I think that you will see that the Babe was an outstanding player in many aspects, Bonds seems to have had one singularly great season. Natural, or chemically enhanced?
Gotta love the intro paragraph.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12522172/
"Ruth better than Bonds in every way
Babe was superior hitter, won 7 World Series — and was great pitcher
Babe Ruth may be passed by Barry Bonds on the career home run chart, but Ruth was a superior player to Bonds, writes NBCSports.com's Michael Ventre.
COMMENTARY
By Michael Ventre
NBCSports.com contributor
Updated: 1:26 p.m. ET May 8, 2006
I disagree that Barry Bonds couldn’t carry Babe Ruth’s jockstrap. Because of a unique but controversial training regimen, Bonds is strong enough to carry Ruth’s jockstrap, even with the Babe still in it.
But that’s not really one of the feats of power that a baseball fan realistically would point to in determining if Barry Bonds is worthy of cracking Ruth’s 714 home-run plateau. Nor should it be.
Simply put, Bonds isn’t the baseball player that Ruth was, nor did he have the impact on the game that Ruth did.
Let’s not forget that Ruth was in the process of establishing himself as a Hall of Fame pitcher before he became a slugger. In six seasons, from 1914 to 1919, Ruth went 89-46. He posted records of 18-8, 23-12 and 24-13 in a span from 1915 to 1917. In ’17, he had an unthinkable 35 complete games in 38 starts. Aside from his 1914 rookie year, when he only had three starts, he never registered an ERA above 3.00 during his prime pitching years in Boston. Ruth’s pitching was the primary reason why the Red Sox won the World Series in 1916 and 1918. He posted 29 consecutive scoreless innings of World Series play, a record that stood for 42 years.
possible to compare and haggle over batting statistics between Ruth and Bonds for days, weeks, months or years. Some of the most pertinent are these:
Bonds became baseball’s first 400-400 player in 1998 — 400 homers and 400 stolen bases.
Ruth led the American League in home runs 12 times and in slugging percentage 13 times.
Bonds hit a record 73 home runs in 2001. But that was a career anomaly and most certainly achieved through enhancement. He had never hit more than 49 before or after that.
Ruth hit 60 home runs in 1927. But he hit 50 or more three other times, and 40 or more seven other times.
Perhaps the more important aspects of this argument come under the heading of intangibles.
Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds were the most celebrated players of their times. But Bonds is more of a negative and villainous force. He takes the field with a chip on his shoulder and a surly scowl, and while immensely popular with the fans in San Francisco, everywhere else the sentiment ranges from mild dislike to outright loathing.
The Babe certainly attracted his share of boo-birds. Every great player who threatens to wreak havoc on an opposing team surely does. But overall the affect of Ruth’s presence was largely positive. He personally resurrected the national pastime after the Black Sox scandal of 1919. He transformed the game from one in which runs were routinely scratched out into one that featured the electricity and excitement of the long ball. Yankee Stadium is still referred to as “The House That Ruth Built.”
Bonds definitely seems to thrive by sticking it to critics. But if he had played today, Ruth would have channeled the Michael Jordan level of hero-worship that is present today into even more extraordinary achievements, because his ego would accept no less.
But perhaps the biggest difference between Ruth and Bonds comes in the area of jewelry. Ruth played in 10 World Series, winning seven. Bonds played in one, winning none. Maybe it’s unfair to compare what Ruth had around him in Boston and New York with Bonds’ supporting casts in Pittsburgh and San Francisco.
But Bonds’ postseason numbers overall don’t measure up to Ruth: .245 average, 9 homers, 24 RBI in 48 games, with a slugging percentage of .503. And much of that was polished by his one breakout 2002 postseason. Ruth batted a whopping .326 in 41 World Series games, with 15 home runs, 33 RBI and a slugging percentage of .744. Even if you cut Bonds some slack for not having a Lou Gehrig in the lineup with him all those years, it still looks like he’s been slacking off in the postseason.
And last but not least, Major League Baseball announced it will not have any official celebration should Bonds tie or pass Ruth at 714. That’s just the latest reminder that the bigger-than-life qualities associated with Bonds may have gotten bigger in an unnatural way.
Even without substances, Bonds had a brilliant career, but Ruth had the more legitimate and impressive career.
Yes, Bonds could have carried the Babe’s jockstrap, but in every other significant way he doesn’t measure up."
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
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The Reaper is offline
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05-09-2006, 16:29
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#8
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer
Just sticking to Hall of Fame caliber players, the biggest prick in baseball history is undoubtedly Ty Cobb. Among the current crop, Pedro Martinez stands out in assholiness.
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Winners! 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-09-2006, 16:36
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#9
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I'm not arguing that Bonds is better than Ruth. I never saw Ruth play and your article pretty much lays that to rest. All I am saying is Bonds is not mediocre.
He still has a ways to go to catch Hank - two maybe 3 seasons. If they let him play.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-09-2006, 16:49
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#10
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
He still has a ways to go to catch Hank - two maybe 3 seasons. If they let him play.
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I think that if Bonds has to pass regular drug tests, he could play ten more years and not catch Hank.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-09-2006, 16:51
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#11
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I'm of the opinion that Ty Cobb was just mean enough, to compete without steroids. It would be a source of pride with him that he ran more bleachers and pushed more iron than the competition.
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05-09-2006, 16:58
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#12
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Steriods don't do you much good if you don't do the work. They ain't magic.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-09-2006, 17:37
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#13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Bonds is one away, what do you guys think?
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I think it should not be a record if just one HR was steroid induced.
I'd bet on my grandmothers grave that many of bonds HR's were steroid induced..... Not the kind of mentor I would want my kids to take after.....
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Team Sergeant is offline
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05-09-2006, 19:41
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#14
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
I think it should not be a record if just one HR was steroid induced.
I'd bet on my grandmothers grave that many of bonds HR's were steroid induced..... Not the kind of mentor I would want my kids to take after.....
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Absolutely.
I think the problem I have with all of this is that this is a frigging game where the playing field should be level in that everyone brings to that game the skills and talents developed through training, desire, and heart. If you are going to use the benefits provided through better chemistry it should be limited to those situations where life, limb and someone's destiny other than your own is involved.
The second problem I have is that, like it or not, these losers are role models for kids. This has already produced a generation of youngsters in competitive sports that are suffering heart attacks and ruining their lives because of shitbirds like Bonds.
If Bonds, and the other clowns that are juicing, can take credit for anything it is the demise of what was once a great sport.
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Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
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05-09-2006, 20:43
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#15
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Area Commander
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I agree with Col. M and TS, Bonds and his fellow juicers have destroyed the statistical aspect of the game. What the hell are the talking heads on the four letter network going to yell about now, when they can't compare numbers from different eras anymore?
I just love the fact that Bud Selig and his fellow hypocrites in MLB will have to stand up and cheer when Bonds passes Ruth, even though they know he's a cheater.
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