"Teams" or "School House"

Basenshukai · 03-19-2004, 20:26

Current active guys might know the background here.

Given the power and authority to make the decision:

If you had to choose between manning the operational SFODAs, or manning the "school house" with experienced instructors whom have had "team time" so they can produce more members for an ODA, which option would you implement?

Now, the rules are that you can't have it both ways. You have a limited pool to choose from (current active SFODA members) and any transfer of personnel from there will ultimately leave the teams with less men. Take into account that it is not a one-for-one swap. It will take time for the "school house" to turn out enough trained SF soldiers to make the shortfall. It is a choice between short term and long term goals and vision.

Now, I have my own opinion and it is biased since I'm on an ODA. But, which would you choose and why?

NousDefionsDoc · 03-19-2004, 20:33

We are at war.

**Team Sergeant** · 03-19-2004, 20:37

And it would seem we will be at war for a good long time. I would man the school house. It is just as important as an SFODA and becomes more important as they are the only ones that can produce more SF soldiers.

There is another option, close down an SF group.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-19-2004, 20:43

Another option. Let the FOGs run the school house.

Surgicalcric · 03-19-2004, 20:43

If I am out of place here please accept my apology.

That said, what about rotating NG SF soldiers thru the Schoolhouse as instructors in addition to using AD Groups?

**Team Sergeant** · 03-19-2004, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Another option. Let the FOGs run the school house.

Now that I agree with, with one exception all the FOGâ€™s in a teaching position have to have been 18 series.

(Crip jumped in between posts!)

**Team Sergeant** · 03-19-2004, 20:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
If I am out of place here please accept my apology.

That said, what about rotating NG SF soldiers thru the Schoolhouse as instructors in addition to using AD Groups?

Theres a reason they are NG in the first place. They do not want to spend 24/7 on AD. You've any idea how long it takes to train up a good SF instructor? Not an option in my opinion.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-19-2004, 20:53

He does that. That's what I mean 18 series FOGs running the whole thing with AD senior management. Colonels and CSMs.

**Ambush Master** · 03-19-2004, 20:58

OK, how about SOG-FOGs !! Then all the rest would need to sweat what was being taught to the Newbies !!!

**The Reaper** · 03-19-2004, 21:19

There are Reserve component all over the Training Group working as IMAs.

IIRC, Guard soldiers are occasionally brought in for courses, but not normally as Primary Instructors (PIs). The NG Groups are busy enough with deployments that I suspect they have other things to do while they are back home. If an NG soldier wants to be an AD soldier, all he has to do, in most cases is to ask.

It takes approximately six months to put an AD E-7 or E-8 on the platform as a PI.

FOGs already fill many of the jobs in SWCS, from old soldiers, guys with profiles, guys who just need to be back home for a while to recharge, retirees back as contractors, guys who are back as GS employees, etc. If the schoolhouse was restricted to AD SF soldiers only, we would have to shut down half the courses, cut student load in half, or cannibalize an AC Group to man the positions. LR1947 is one of our FOGs, as is ODA 564, I probably qualify as well. The senior civilian within SWCS, probably half of the GS positions, and most of the contractors are prior AD SF personnel. This will be hard to maintain as overseas contract work becomes even more financially lucrative. I think there is a major exodus underway right now by guys who are eligible to retire and take the overseas positions. The next few months should tell.

When the Germans stripped their schools to fill their units, the war was pretty much already in its final stages. We let the Schoolhouse slide for many years, dropping from six to four SFQC Classes per year, cutting instructor manning and authorizations, etc. This was done to maintain the manning in the Groups, which is an extremely myopic plan. The followup plan was to zero out one ODA per SF Company so that the remaining teams could be manned fully, as well as SWCS. This also failed. This culminated in graduating a grand total of about 250 soldiers in 2000 or so, which was about 1/3 to 1/2 of our requirements. Numbers have improved significantly since then by a number of methods, which did not include lowering standards. Big actions and big money are currently underway to produce 750 SF soldiers per year within the next few years. This is requiring additional resourcing, to the tune of an additional 500 permanent party personnel. Hey, anyone remember that old saying, "Competent SOF cannot be created overnight"? It takes SF soldiers to make SF soldiers, and it is a very manpower and contact hour intensive process.

FYI, SWCS enrolled over 10,000 students in some course last year, and if you count total students, cadre, and contractors for the year, had more people assigned or attached than the 82nd.

HTH.

TR

**Ambush Master** · 03-19-2004, 21:32

On a serious note, I was trained by SF-RVN Vets (some of whom went BACK over with us after we were Flashed) and then in country we were trained (in One Zero School) by experienced Recon Types that all had BTDT in a Big Way !!! It worked, and the payback can't be measured. I will say that I am here today because of those people, all the way from Phase I to One-Zero School, they taught us the real deal stuff and it worked !!

The people running the show and in constant contact with the students, need to have BEEN THERE AND DONE IT !!!

The confidence and the belief in what you are being taught is directly proportional to the Validity and Background of the Instructors !!!

**Eagle5US** · 03-20-2004, 01:14

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
There are Reserve component all over the Training Group working as IMAs.

IIRC, Guard soldiers are occasionally brought in for courses, but not normally as Primary Instructors (PIs). The NG Groups are busy enough with deployments that I suspect they have other things to do while they are back home. If an NG soldier wants to be an AD soldier, all he has to do, in most cases is to ask.

It takes approximately six months to put an AD E-7 or E-8 on the platform as a PI.

FOGs already fill many of the jobs in SWCS, from old soldiers, guys with profiles, guys who just need to be back home for a while to recharge, retirees back as contractors, guys who are back as GS employees, etc. If the schoolhouse was restricted to AD SF soldiers only, we would have to shut down half the courses, cut student load in half, or cannibalize an AC Group to man the positions. LR1947 is one of our FOGs, as is ODA 564, I probably qualify as well. The senior civilian within SWCS, probably half of the GS positions, and most of the contractors are prior AD SF personnel. This will be hard to maintain as overseas contract work becomes even more financially lucrative. I think there is a major exodus underway right now by guys who are eligible to retire and take the overseas positions. The next few months should tell.

When the Germans stripped their schools to fill their units, the war was pretty much already in its final stages. We let the Schoolhouse slide for many years, dropping from six to four SFQC Classes per year, cutting instructor manning and authorizations, etc. This was done to maintain the manning in the Groups, which is an extremely myopic plan. The followup plan was to zero out one ODA per SF Company so that the remaining teams could be manned fully, as well as SWCS. This also failed. This culminated in graduating a grand total of about 250 soldiers in 2000 or so, which was about 1/3 to 1/2 of our requirements. Numbers have improved significantly since then by a number of methods, which did not include lowering standards. Big actions and big money are currently underway to produce 750 SF soldiers per year within the next few years. This is requiring additional resourcing, to the tune of an additional 500 permanent party personnel. Hey, anyone remember that old saying, "Competent SOF cannot be created overnight"? It takes SF soldiers to make SF soldiers, and it is a very manpower and contact hour intensive process.

FYI, SWCS enrolled over 10,000 students in some course last year, and if you count total students, cadre, and contractors for the year, had more people assigned or attached than the 82nd.

HTH.

TR

Tremendous insight and POV TR..thanks for sharing...

Eagle

longrange1947 · 03-20-2004, 07:37

Most of the points have been made. While it will not rape the teams, you need to have time in SWC to spread your expertise AND experiences to the newbs.

I too went kicking and screaming to my SWC Assigment as a new E8. Had orders to El Sal cancelled to go to SWC and hated it.

However, you must have expreience to train new troops or you ahve the computer problem of GIGO, Garbage in Garbage out.

While the idea of FOGs working the school is excellent, there is a problem wiht point o view being lost as no new perspectives are coming into the school house. That would be a crippling loss.

While I work at the school house, I know for a fact that i have an old view point that may miss some of the new info out there. That is why we have each Group represented on our commitee so as to manitain a deverse view for updating training. It also prevents the desert/jungle/urban/mountain ideas form becoming a dominate force in training. While my course is advanced skills, the pipeline is just as important.

The pipeline must be maintained by active duty guys that are experienced with what is happening right now, not some old crusty guy talking about SEA. Just as I did not want to hear about the Big one WWII when I was going through training group. I wanted to know about SEA.

If we do not keep the expereince coming into the pipeline then we will have a generation of newbs coming on to the teams that have been essentially short changed.

Sorry Basenshukai, but you need to do your time in purgatory!

I will tell you that all the guys on SOTIC want to get in to the fight as fast as possible, but they also know that they have a job to do.

As a past thought, there was a time when they assigned promising grads right form Tng Grp into Tng Grp. It was a disaster and some never saw team time. Not a good plan, it is called inbred training, one mistake becomes doctrine and it is hard to get out of the system.

End my thoughts, kill the messenger!

Oh yes, there have been NGs assigned to our Company as trainers for two year stints.

Basenshukai · 03-20-2004, 11:26

Quote:

Originally posted by longrange1947

Sorry Basenshukai, but you need to do your time in purgatory!

This is not the reason for the post. I am not anywhere near the "crosshairs" of SWC.

Quote:

Originally posted by longrange1947
As a past thought, there was a time when they assigned promising grads right form Tng Grp into Tng Grp. It was a disaster and some never saw team time. Not a good plan, it is called inbred training, one mistake becomes doctrine and it is hard to get out of the system.

This has happened again within the last year. In fact, I saw a few friends go from the Q Course, right into SWC duty. One of them is a senior E-6.

**Team Sergeant** · 03-20-2004, 16:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Basenshukai
This has happened again within the last year. In fact, I saw a few friends go from the Q Course, right into SWC duty. One of them is a senior E-6.

Now that I disagree with. Big mistake and the wrong way to start an SF career.