NYC Ground Zero Mosque

[Richard]

I've found it is always so much easier to justify otherwise intolerable behavior in myself when I've been convinced it is either morally or socially acceptable to hate someone enough to do so. I've become harder to convince than I was in the past.

And so it goes...

Richard's $.02

[Sigaba]

Some say that the residents of individual states, communities, and municipalities should determine what goes on in their localities. Yet for many, that sensibility seems to go out the door without any qualifier, explanation, or acknowledgment when certain buttons get pushed.

IMO, this glaring intellectual inconsistency, as understandable as it may be, will have profound (albeit unintended) political consequences down the line.

My $0.02.

[Maytime]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Some say that the residents of individual states, communities, and municipalities should determine what goes on in their localities. Yet for many, that sensibility seems to go out the door without any qualifier, explanation, or acknowledgment when certain buttons get pushed.

I'm no political whiz, but could the construction (or prohibition) of the mosque at Ground Zero be solved democratically i.e. as a bill in the upcoming elections in November? I think then we will see what the people really think. I shudder to think about the implications if the people of NYC allowed it to built though...

[akv]

Originally Posted by Maytime

I'm no political whiz, but could the construction (or prohibition) of the mosque at Ground Zero be solved democratically i.e. as a bill in the upcoming elections in November? I think then we will see what the people really think.

I would defer to the lawyers here, but my guess is it would get voted down in a heartbeat, but then be overturned in higher court as a clear violation of constitutional rights of freedom of religion, and applicable personal property laws. We would have to change our laws first?

[Todd 1]

Church Destroyed at Ground Zero Is Still at Square One

By CHARLES V. BAGLI
Published: March 18, 2009

The tiny St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is once again at the forefront of the myriad disputes that plague the rebuilding effort at ground zero.

The fate of the church, a narrow whitewashed building that was crushed in the attack on the World Trade Center, was supposed to have been settled eight months ago, with a tentative agreement in which the church would swap its land for a grander church building on a larger parcel nearby, with a $20 million subsidy from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. This would have allowed work to begin at the south end of the site.

But the two sides never came to final terms. After months of negotiations, the Port Authority, which is overseeing reconstruction at ground zero, ended its talks with the church on Monday, saying that the church had sought increasingly costly concessions.

Complaints, of course, abound on both sides.

The authority now says that St. Nicholas is free to rebuild the church on its own parcel at 155 Cedar Street, just east of West Street. The authority will, in turn, use eminent domain to get control of the land beneath that parcel so it can move ahead with building foundation walls and a bomb-screening center for trucks, buses and cars entering the area.

“We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” said Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

Last July, the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Church announced a tentative plan to rebuild the church just east of its original site, at Liberty and Greenwich Streets. The authority agreed to provide the church with land for a 24,000-square-foot house of worship, far larger than the original, and $20 million. Since the church would be built in a park over the bomb-screening center, the authority also agreed to pay up to $40 million for a blast-proof platform and foundation.

In recent negotiations, the authority cut the size of the church slightly and told church officials that its dome could not rise higher than the trade center memorial. The church, in turn, wanted the right to review plans for both the garage with the bomb-screening center and the park, something the authority was unwilling to provide. More important, authority officials said, the church wanted the $20 million up front, rather than in stages. Officials said they feared that the church, which has raised about $2 million for its new building, would come back to the authority for more.

The termination of negotiations is a major setback for the little church, a parish of 70 families that is nearly 90 years old. St. Nicholas officials had hoped to build an impressive structure, with a traditional Greek Orthodox dome, and a nondenominational center for visitors to ground zero. That will not be possible on the church’s original 1,200-square-foot lot, although church officials say they hope for reconciliation.

“We consider the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Church a sacred obligation to the victims of 9/11, to the city of New York, to the people of America and in fact to the international community,” said Stavros H. Papagermanos, a spokesman for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. “We will continue to discuss in good faith and we believe that all parties involved are well-intended, and ultimately we will overcome any obstacles that have arisen.”

One person who was involved in the negotiations on behalf of the church, and who insisted on anonymity so as not to inflame the situation, criticized the Port Authority, saying it had made constantly shifting demands on St. Nicholas. Still, he said, the remaining issues were relatively small.

But it does not appear that the Port Authority is posturing. And while the Bloomberg administration expressed regrets about the impasse, officials said it was far more important to proceed apace with building a memorial, a transit center and other projects at ground zero.St. Nicholas, a four-story church, became a symbol of resilience after it was destroyed, with George E. Pataki, then the governor, and Archbishop Demetrios, primate of the Greek Orthodox Church in America, vowing that it would rise again.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/ny...urch.html?_r=1

[sf11b_p]

Originally Posted by akv

I wonder how anyone could know this, or pragmatically why the Japanese who are often polite to the point of saying no with a yes, would suddenly in moment of extreme western candor reveal their actual inner thoughts to an American veteran, they just met at Pearl Harbor, while visiting Hawaii?

I suppose it would be fairly easy for an American, veteran or not, who speaks and reads Japanese. I suppose it would be as easy for a Japanese to feel they were safe to say anything they choose in their own language as they might believe, as you seem to, that Americans are too ignorant to understand them. Probably why a Japanese in Osaka smilingly insulted me while he handed me the bowl of noodles I'd ordered in English.

Say your in Italy talking on the train, you aren't meeting and greeting but the locals are listening to you talking to your friends. More than a few Europeans speak English.

By the way, my understanding is the Japanese were very polite to Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and bowed as they left his office December 7th.

[Richard]

A surprising perspective...but something to think about whether one agrees with Mr Friedman or not.

Richard

Broadway and the Mosque
Thomas Friedman, NYT, 3 Aug 2010

There are several reasons why I don’t object to a mosque being built near the World Trade Center site, but the key reason is my affection for Broadway show tunes.

Let me explain. A couple weeks ago, President Obama and his wife held “A Broadway Celebration: In Performance at the White House,” a concert in the East Room by some of Broadway’s biggest names, singing some of Broadway’s most famous hits. Because my wife is on the board of the public TV station that organized the evening, WETA, I got to attend, but all I could think of was: I wish the whole country were here.

It wasn’t just the great performances of Audra McDonald, Nathan Lane, Idina Menzel, Elaine Stritch, Karen Olivo, Tonya Pinkins, Brian d’Arcy James, Marvin Hamlisch and Chad Kimball, or the spirited gyrations of the students from the Joy of Motion Dance Center and the Duke Ellington School of the Arts performing “You Can’t Stop the Beat” — it was the whole big, rich stew. African-American singers and Hispanic-American dancers belting out the words of Jewish and Irish immigrant composers, accompanied by white musicians whose great-great-grandparents came over on the Mayflower for all I know — all performing for America’s first black president whose middle name is Hussein.

The show was so full of life, no one could begrudge Elaine Stritch, 84, for getting a little carried away and saying to Mr. Obama, seated in the front row: “I’d love to get drunk with the president.”

Feeling the pulsating energy of this performance was such a vivid reminder of America’s most important competitive advantage: the sheer creative energy that comes when you mix all our diverse people and cultures together. We live in an age when the most valuable asset any economy can have is the ability to be creative — to spark and imagine new ideas, be they Broadway tunes, great books, iPads or new cancer drugs. And where does creativity come from?

I like the way Newsweek described it in a recent essay on creativity: “To be creative requires divergent thinking (generating many unique ideas) and then convergent thinking (combining those ideas into the best result).”

And where does divergent thinking come from? It comes from being exposed to divergent ideas and cultures and people and intellectual disciplines. As Marc Tucker, the president of the National Center on Education and the Economy, once put it to me: “One thing we know about creativity is that it typically occurs when people who have mastered two or more quite different fields use the framework in one to think afresh about the other. Intuitively, you know this is true. Leonardo da Vinci was a great artist, scientist and inventor, and each specialty nourished the other. He was a great lateral thinker. But if you spend your whole life in one silo, you will never have either the knowledge or mental agility to do the synthesis, connect the dots, which is usually where the next great breakthrough is found.”

Which brings me back to the Muslim community center/mosque, known as Park51. It is proposed to be built two blocks north of where the twin towers stood and would include a prayer space, a 500-seat performing arts center, a swimming pool and a restaurant. The Times reported that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Muslim leader behind the project, who has led services in TriBeCa since 1983, said he wants the center to help “bridge and heal a divide” among Muslims and other religious groups. “We have condemned the actions of 9/11,” he said.

I greatly respect the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 — which was perpetrated in the name of Islam — and who oppose this project. Personally, if I had $100 million to build a mosque that promotes interfaith tolerance, I would not build it in Manhattan. I’d build it in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. That is where 9/11 came from, and those are the countries that espouse the most puritanical version of Sunni Islam — a version that shows little tolerance not only for other religions but for other strands of Islam, particularly Shiite, Sufi and Ahmadiyya Islam. You can study Islam at virtually any American university, but you can’t even build a one-room church in Saudi Arabia.

That resistance to diversity, though, is not something we want to emulate, which is why I’m glad the mosque was approved on Tuesday. Countries that choke themselves off from exposure to different cultures, faiths and ideas will never invent the next Google or a cancer cure, let alone export a musical or body of literature that would bring enjoyment to children everywhere.

When we tell the world, “Yes, we are a country that will even tolerate a mosque near the site of 9/11,” we send such a powerful message of inclusion and openness. It is shocking to other nations. But you never know who out there is hearing that message and saying: “What a remarkable country! I want to live in that melting pot, even if I have to build a boat from milk cartons to get there.” As long as that happens, Silicon Valley will be Silicon Valley, Hollywood will be Hollywood, Broadway will be Broadway, and America, if we ever get our politics and schools fixed, will be O.K.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/op...me&ref=general

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Maytime

I'm no political whiz, but could the construction (or prohibition) of the mosque at Ground Zero be solved democratically i.e. as a bill in the upcoming elections in November? I think then we will see what the people really think. I shudder to think about the implications if the people of NYC allowed it to built though...

What would such a bill say? Do you have some sort of zoning regulation or building code in mind?

Once such legislation/regulations pass, what would be next? What if, a few years from now, a majority of Americans start calling for laws that forbid statutes and monuments that pay tribute to the CSA and those who fought for it?

(FWIW, in my experience, a good way to derail a project is to push the issue of parking requirements.)

[Saoirse]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

What would such a bill say? Do you have some sort of zoning regulation or building code in mind?

Once such legislation/regulations pass, what would be next? What if, a few years from now, a majority of Americans start calling for laws that forbid statutes and monuments that pay tribute to the CSA and those who fought for it?

(FWIW, in my experience, a good way to derail a project is to push the issue of parking requirements.)

Oh those of us who live or have lived in NY know what an issue that is. No doubt they have planned for that with undergound parking. Here is one to think about....the noise pollution. How long with the "call to prayer" be played over loudspeakers and how often until the local populace gets fed up with the disruption to their lives. You are not even suppose to honking your car horn in the city.

But putting that aside, I do not see this Tower of Terror being built. You have the unions to contend, you have the FDNY/NYPD/Port Authority who lost brothers/sisters on 9/11, hell, you even have the mob to deal with. If they make any progress on building, it won't last. And I hope it doesn't!!! I hope with every board that gets nailed up, it gets burned down! With any concrete that gets poured, it gets vandalized.

[Tristanada]

This is unbelievable. I'm a huge advocate of letting people practice any religion that they want to but to put a religious gathering place so close to a sacred spot is no short of a disgrace to the freedom that gives us that opportunity. The people approving this should be ashamed to call themselves american. I normally only read these threads but this one grinds my gears.

T - it is not that we do not want to hear from you - BUT - you do need to go to the following link and follow the directions provided before doing anything else on this BB.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ead.php?t=3452

Welcome to PS.Com.

Richard

[Richard]

Here is one to think about....the noise pollution. How long with the "call to prayer" be played over loudspeakers and how often until the local populace gets fed up with the disruption to their lives.

There are Mosques around here and one does not hear any calls to prayer from them on any day of the week. Other than the normal traffic sounds, it's only the fire station testing its disaster warning siren daily at 1200 or the local Catholic church playing its bells to announce certain calls to worship several times a day - and then there are the periodic teens in their cars with their stereo systems cranked up until a police officer hears them and either warns or cites them for violating the noise ordnances.

...but to put a religious gathering place so close to a sacred spot is no short of a disgrace to the freedom that gives us that opportunity...

I was always under the impression the area around the WTC was a financial district which - to me - sounds like a poor place for ANY religion to want to place a structure...except maybe for money worshippers.

Would cost us tax payers a lot of $$ to remove all those religious gathering places which are so close to sacred spots in this country - especially all those which actually sit on such sites.

And I hope it doesn't!!! I hope with every board that gets nailed up, it gets burned down! With any concrete that gets poured, it gets vandalized.

Now that's the ol' Christian and American thing to do - nothing like a return to those goode olde dayes of yore. I'm guessing there's a conflict with some between the 1st Commandment and the 1st Amendment.

Once such legislation/regulations pass, what would be next? What if, a few years from now, a majority of Americans start calling for laws that forbid statutes and monuments that pay tribute to the CSA and those who fought for it?

Never happen - those were just gawd fearing Christians following holy scripture, not some Muslim horde seeking to enslave all who won't submit to their scribbled version of the truth.

Personally, I think the whole idea of pushing for a mosque on lower Manhattan is a BIG mistake and a HUGE PR disaster for the American Muslim communtiy - and it also could cost us dearly if we don't handle it well.

And so it goes...

Richard

[Maytime]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

What would such a bill say? Do you have some sort of zoning regulation or building code in mind?

I really have no idea, I just don't know how these things work. I don't think outright asking, "Are you for or against a mosque being built..." is constitutional, but hey, a federal judge just found California's gay marriage ban unconstitutional, and that was voted on by the people.

[GratefulCitizen]

I have a compromise for them.

There should be a building constructed with multiple stories, owned by the city.
The mosque can occupy the first level.

The first level ceiling/second level floor should be made of sturdy glass which can be walked upon.
A memorial area for 9/11 can be on this second level.

Visitors can see the mosque first hand (beneath their feet) and learn tolerance for islam.

The area to the southeast of the building should be cleared and grass should be planted.
It can be a "pet area" so peoples dogs won't leave piles on the street.

There should also be a food area which serves plenty of pork.

Tolerance is a two-way street.

[akv]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

There should also be a food area which serves plenty of pork.

Tolerance is a two-way street.

I've read of half frozen pigs with IBS spotted running around that part of the city. They might come wholesale in this recession..

[Penn]

http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/20...under-shariah/

I am intolerant, but not without VALID reason.

"Recently, the SLA notified three businesses on West Broadway that it is moving to revoke their liquor licenses. All four establishments (Bars) are in the vicinity of Masjid al-Farah a Sufi mosque in a nondescript two-story building at 245 West Broadway. According to the state’s Alcohol Beverage Control (ABC) law, liquor licenses are prohibited for establishments that are on the same street and within 200 feet of a building “occupied exclusively as a school, church, synagogue or other place of worship…” The SLA learned of the mosque—and began an investigation of bars in the area—after Angerosi’s neighborhood opponents brought it to the agency’s attention at a hearing last May."


This also occurred in the Grammacy section of Manhattan, where a restaurant was forced to cover its windows due to the musox across the street. The restaurant had been there 15 yrs prior to the musox. The cab drivers have made the street unpassable with empty cabs as they worship in their make shift room.