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Old 06-06-2006, 20:47   #46
Jack Moroney (RIP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl.Masters
I do however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents...
I have a mutual aquaintance of ours I can recommend for delivery of them to the insurgents if you can arrange the transport. Hell, I'm sure he still has his bogus carry permit
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Old 06-06-2006, 21:01   #47
Karl.Masters
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Roger that Sir. But I don't think he could handle the 48lbs in size XL....
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Old 06-06-2006, 21:43   #48
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Quote:
I do however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents...
Hah! I freakin' knew it. That was funny. Thanks for the non-G2.
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:49   #49
Karl.Masters
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Should have some more non-G2 later this week. May was a very interesting month....

v/r
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Old 06-07-2006, 12:58   #50
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Mr. Masters,

I've been informed that you completed less than 1/3rd of the scheduled tests (8 out of 30) on Dragon Skin.

Is this information correct? If so, why did you stop the tests?

If the information I received is not correct, can you tell us how many tests you did complete?

If you have stopped the testing before completing all 30 tests, are you going to resume it? If you are going to resume, when do you plan to do so, and what conditions must be met in order to do so?

Mr Crane,

Next time you post on this forum you will identify yourself to whom you are asking a question or you will be gone. Anything printed here is copyrighted, remember that. Also you are not immune to the rules of this board and I suggest you read them before you post again.

Team Sergeant


Karl,
Mr Crane writes for an internet military news website that has a keen interest in anything new or in development.
TS

Last edited by DefRev; 06-07-2006 at 13:05.
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Welllllll.
Old 06-07-2006, 13:40   #51
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Welllllll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DefRev
.......I've been informed that you completed less than 1/3rd of the scheduled tests (8 out of 30) on Dragon Skin.

Is this information correct? If so, why did you stop the tests?

I'm no news junky and am not searching the internet for news on this subject but as I recall, as reported in the Army Times, the testing was kind of like school. You had to pass a step before going on to the next grade. If you flunk the 5th grade you don't go on to the 6th grade.

As the story said it didn't pass the first round of tests so there was no reason to continue. I can wait for the "Official word" to come down.

Pete
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Old 06-08-2006, 00:02   #52
Karl.Masters
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TS: Appreciate the advisory.

Pete: 5x5.

Mr. Crane: After reviewing your web site, I see that you have already determined the military utility of Dragon Skin for the Army. Fortunately, that's my job-not yours. I also note that you feel free to demean those who have views different from yours. That's a non-habit forming technique in this forum.

The Army has a cautious and deliberate process to field personal protective equipment. It is impossible to "hype" your pet body armor onto the backs of Soldiers. Leaflet drops on capitol hill, smear campaigns, and glossy brochures with rosy performance claims are not going to get Dragon Skin through the ESAPI first article test protocol. In the absence of ballistic performance data that will support a Soldier safety release, Dragon Skin is a NO GO for fielding.

I recommend that you do some more research on the product you advocate. I invite your attention to the Federal Trade Commision website. A search on body armor will illustrate that the FTC has taken a rather dim view of body armor manufacturers that misrepresent the National Institute of Justice compliance status of their products.

The sun is about to shine on the Army's rationale for issuing the body armor Safety of Use Message. Get your suncreen ready.

I'll be watching to see if you set the record straight, or if I will have to do it for you. Welcome aboard.

Karl
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Old 06-09-2006, 04:02   #53
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Welcome aboard to you, as well, sir. I see you joined PS after I did.

With all due respect, Mr. Masters, I must say that I find it troubling that the "acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor" is in charge of testing SOV/Dragon Skin body armor, considering that SOV-3000 Level IV Dragon Skin appears to be the #1 threat to the Interceptor Body Armor/ESAPI program. How do you avoid a conflict of interest, there?

Also, why do you not recommend SOV-3000 Level IV Dragon Skin for use against 7.62x54R AP ammo? It's my understanding that you didn't shoot the SOV-3000 with any type of 7.62x54R during the latest tests. If my information is correct--and please let me know if it isn't, as I realize that's possible--how can you know? With regard to the 7.62x54R, did you test the ESAPI (Level IV) plate against the 7.62x54R round, specifically, or did you test it against a surrogate? I'm not asking for any test data/results.

It's also my understanding that the ESAPI's magnesium backing burns pretty intensely when it gets hit with an API round (The SOV-3000 Dragon Skin doesn't have this problem.). So, if the enemy is armed with PKMs and 7.62x54R API ammo, even if the operator's ESAPI plate stops the round, he's still going to get burned pretty severely, right? Magnesium burns pretty hot.

TS, since you've already identified me to Mr. Masters (above), and he's already addressed me by my last name (and visited my site), you mean the next time I reply to a different person or in a different thread, right? Just in case you don't...

I'm the owner/editor of DefenseReview, Mr. Masters.

Last edited by DefRev; 06-09-2006 at 04:56.
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Old 06-09-2006, 05:56   #54
Jack Moroney (RIP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefRev
How do you avoid a conflict of interest, there?.
I am not going to claim to have any expertise in this discussion, save one. While Karl Masters is not going to say this because of the type of person he is, I am just so you have a better insight into the person to whom you are talking. He is a consumate professional, I know this because he worked with me when we were in the same organization. He has also walked in the boots of the soldiers he has choosen to continue to serve as a program manager so he has a personal stake in continuing to look out for his men as a former Special Forces Officer. This, and I mean this as no criticism for those that have not served with us for one reason or another because this commitment is for a select few, is an obligation and calling that those that have not served with these outstanding men will never understand. His professionalism, and his concern for making sure that the troops get the best product available, would absolutely ensure that he has no conflict of interest.
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Old 06-09-2006, 07:45   #55
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Mr Masters,

I would like to see any information that can be released to other DOD agencies. My survivability combat developer would be very interested in any insight that you have in this matter.

You can send the information SIPR and it will be handled at whatever classification level that you choose.

I can PM you a SIPR adress if you can assist.
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:18   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefRev
Welcome aboard to you, as well, sir. I see you joined PS after I did.

With all due respect, Mr. Masters, I must say that I find it troubling that the "acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor" is in charge of testing SOV/Dragon Skin body armor, considering that SOV-3000 Level IV Dragon Skin appears to be the #1 threat to the Interceptor Body Armor/ESAPI program. How do you avoid a conflict of interest, there?
Mr. Crane, I'll say this once because you have zero military experience, zero LEO experience and zero credibility as a defense advisor as far as I'm concerned;

The next time you find something "troubling" seek professional help. The next time you question a Special Forces soldier integrity you will be gone.

I find it outrageous as a tax payer and a professional that you, with zero experience, consult/advise for Homeland Security. I have read articles on your website and find some of them as interesting as the super market tabloids.

Think before you post again.

"Welcome aboard to you, as well, sir. I see you joined PS after I did."

AS a person that keep an eye on noteworthy dates you may find interesting that Dr. Vails article was first posted on this website, and not yours as your "exclusive" headline suggests.

You have my full attention.

Team Sergeant
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Magnesium in ESAPI ????
Old 06-09-2006, 10:43   #57
Karl.Masters
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Magnesium in ESAPI ????

DefRev:

I control the configuration baseline of the US Army ESAPI plate. I know that there is no magnesium in any production ESAPI plate.

Why do you think that there is magnesium in ESAPI? How did you arrive at this "understanding"?

Let me know if this is just an element of the Dragon Skin media campaign or if there is somebody you know actually making bogus ESAPI with magnesium backing material in it.

If so, I'd like to know their grid coordinates ASAP to take appropriate action.

I know it's hard to believe, but there are body armor manufacturers that make performance claims that can't be backed up on the range. They sometimes even mark their products as NIJ level 3 certified when they are not, or distort facts relating to fielded systems to make thier own product look more attractive.

Yup, looks like there is a "conflict of interest" here - between marketing spin and the facts.

Karl

Last edited by Karl.Masters; 06-09-2006 at 10:51.
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Old 06-09-2006, 11:25   #58
Karl.Masters
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Basicload,

As of yesterday I am authorized to release test report and findings on the US Army Dragon Skin SOV 3000 test to any DoD agency. PM with a NIPR and SIPR address and I will send it out.

If any other members serving within DoD are interested in a copy, PM w/a DoD NIPR and SIPR email address and I am happy to forward it.

Karl
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Old 06-09-2006, 11:54   #59
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The next time you question a Special Forces soldier integrity you will be gone.
...he has a personal stake in continuing to look out for his men as a former Special Forces Officer.


Thank you TS and Col M - you beat me to the punch.
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Old 06-09-2006, 12:51   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefRev
It's also my understanding that the ESAPI's magnesium backing burns pretty intensely when it gets hit with an API round (The SOV-3000 Dragon Skin doesn't have this problem.). So, if the enemy is armed with PKMs and 7.62x54R API ammo, even if the operator's ESAPI plate stops the round, he's still going to get burned pretty severely, right? Magnesium burns pretty hot.
Having personally witnessed a nearly unfortunate incident where the wearer of an E-sapi plate was struck in the plate by a 7.62x54 API round, there was no burn at all and the plate stopped the round cold. I'm not sure how you find your sources, as I remember when you were called out on the carpet elsewhere when you erroneously reported that the USMC had purchased 10,000 GLOCK G37 .45 GAP pistols.
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