LINE [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

Warrior-Mentor

01-30-2006, 21:46

This is a joke right? :eek:

No. Ron Donvito is legit. He's trained several SFQCs, and been contracted by 7th SFG to run courses as well. While I was the 1st SWTG(A) S1, the Group Commander contracted him to run LINES instructor training in the SFQC. Was good to get Warrior Skills like this into the SFQC...gotta have it...it's in the song right? Anyway, the Group Commander had Mr. Donvito run a course for him and his Battalion Commanders to get them qualified as well (I suspect they enjoyed hurting one another).

LINES isn't a bad foundation for someone who's had no training. It's designed for military units to be able to train large group of soldiers in hand to hand combat by getting them in, well, lines. The applications are designed to work when you're smoked and wearing combat gear. When C/3/7 SFG contracted him to run a course for them, they had to do the training in their assault gear, complete with body armor.

LINES "stands" for Linear Infighting Neural-override Engagement System. It's basic idea is to break an arm and shake so the nervous system shuts down and goes into survival/self-preservation mode. Arm Bars and head stomps are key.

He runs CCI in Fayetteville, NC and last time I was there, any SF Qualified guy was welcome to train at his facilities for free.

JM

The Reaper

01-30-2006, 21:52

Warrior-Mentor

01-30-2006, 22:05

The man has no neck.

I'd be impressed with anyone who could put a choke on him.

Kyobanim

01-31-2006, 04:42

The one thing was that he ran training at full speed
TR
That's how Krav Maga is taught

Ammodawg

01-31-2006, 06:21

Thank you for clearing that up for me Sir's, his web site seemed a little "over-the-top" to be real, but I suppose if you think about it, most of the things that our SF troops do could be deemed too amazing to be true :lifter

mffjm8509

01-31-2006, 13:41

I've often wondered why this hasnt come up here before.

Ron is legit, and used to come to the first LINES class taught during Phase II for each class. Really what he did was give his wolves vs sheep speech and a background of the system. Also his son Mike would come out and assist at training often. Mike was a Muchado BJJ purple belt, has trained with Ken Shamrock, and a competitive MMA fighter on the east coast last I spoke with him.

LINEs is a course that Ron developed while a hand to hand instructor in the USMC. SWC adopted his program in 97-98 I believe, and began sending instructors through the USMC course. When I left in 2003 the objective was to get all students that graduated the SFQC to be certified by Ron as instructors. While most of us disagreed with him at the time, the program continued. I dont know how well its played out.

My team used the POI to teach my G's in Iraq last year. More than anything it got them to be physical with each other. Techniqes were simple enough to to teach through a terp and for them to retain through repitition. When I left they were teaching the techniques to others in thier unit.

NDD, believe it or not SOME people show up at the Q-course as limp wristed as Clay Aikens. Everybody doesnt show up with a high school wrestling background and many of these kids have never been in a fight. The LINE system was easy to learn and TEACH, and required no resources to train. We also structured it in a way to be physicaly demanding and provide good PT during combatives. Obviously, if someone showed up with other skills then it didnt provide them with much.

When Ron retired he moved to Fayettville and opened up the school there. Now its on Yadkin at the old water slide property. The good thing is if you're in Group, TDY at school at Bragg, or have ever went through one of his courses you can train with them for free. He also lets your wives train there for free.

mp

Razor

01-31-2006, 16:52

mffjm8509

01-31-2006, 17:22

M,

Does Mr. P still instruct combatives out your way?

On another note, I believe you're right about the LINES timeframe being 97-98, as MAJ Whalen (commanding A Co) was sending cadre down to LeJeune in early 97 to become instructors to teach the officer students during morning PT.

Yes Mike still has a contract with 10th Group. From what I know he is only available during PT hours in the ISOFAC. Unfortunately as a Kempo guy, his techniqe really requires a lot of practice and repitition wihtout much physical exersion. Consequently most of the ODAs dont sacrifice thier PT time to learn this.

Last year Pat Flatley got the Group Commanders approval to build a training room next door to the existing mat room. Bottom floor is covered wall to wall and up 4' on the wall in mats. One of the guys in 2nd Battalion has trained with Ralph Gracie since he was a kid so three days a week he was conducting classes there, (deployed now). Upstairs Pat has a pretty extensive Mui Thai room with speed bags, heavy bags, and all of the force on force equipment to run some pretty exhausting sessions.

mp

Razor

01-31-2006, 21:14

Between the improvement in weight equipment I've heard about and what you just described, that ISOFAC has really come a long way! Glad the boys have something like that available.

NousDefionsDoc

01-31-2006, 21:37

Well then, I apologize for laughing at him. I might be a little jaded, having lived through the Maaaaster Savelli era in the same unit Reaper mentioned.

This however, still cracks me up:
"Linear Infighting Neural-override Engagement System"

Since you guys say he is good to go, I'll be nice.

gtcrispy

01-31-2006, 22:10

Like Surgicalcric said, it is taught during Phase 2. In Language they school they took volunteers then forced others to go through the course to meet their quota of 50 guys. I think they spent 2 weeks training for 4hrs in the morning before class and became LINE instructor qualified.

Warrior-Mentor

02-01-2006, 01:36

[QUOTE=NousDefionsDoc]
This however, still cracks me up:
"Linear Infighting Neural-override Engagement System"
[QUOTE]

It's a silly acronym and Ron will admit that. He named it Lines because the students train in lines. The acronym LINES came later...

resonant evil

02-02-2006, 19:06

I first came across LINES while in the Corps. We did LINES 1-3 in MCT at Camp LeJeune, in '94. I went back for some TDY in '99 and went to his school for a couple of weeks. Did the instructor course at Bragg in '04.

Would I use any of it in a fight, I think your fight style is a culmination of everything you have learned and practiced, so uh... (OK maybe not the Line II stuff) A tool for the box, not everything is a top shelf grab.

Came in real handy as PT and motivational tool for the Iraqi Army. Very easy to teach! You get very good feedback from students, and you can teach alot of students. I think that is the biggest benifit.

Monsoon65

06-27-2007, 17:29

I just read in the AF Times that LINES is going to be taught to some of the Airman now. TACPs and SPs are being taught this program and I think it might open up to more. The big question was why the AF is adopting a program that the USMC and SF dropped in the past.

I'm all for teaching some sort of H2H to Airman. It's worth the time and money if it helps some guy getting jumped outside a bar while on leave or prevents a female Airman from being raped some night.

Leozinho

06-27-2007, 17:48

I heard Donvito no longer has the contract to teach combatives at SWCS. Maybe someone will tell us what is being taught now.

NousDefionsDoc

06-27-2007, 18:59

I will never understand why we feel we have to keep re-inventing this wheel.

x-factor

06-27-2007, 19:02

Does anyone have any experience with or an opinion on the Dieter CQD system?

Surgicalcric

06-27-2007, 19:25

...Maybe someone will tell us what is being taught now.

In the Echo course and the Delta course they were teaching grappling last I heard, which was current as of 2 weeks ago.

I concur with NDD.

Crip

504PIR

06-27-2007, 19:53

x-factor,

I did Dieter's course in 05, its a very simple, reasonably effective system. Its not the end-all, be-all some folks say it is. But it is "another tool for the toolbox", decent PT, you will get your bell-rung doing it, overall if you have a chance to go....definitly worth doing.

3SoldierDad

06-27-2007, 19:56

In the Echo course and the Delta course they were teaching grappling last I heard, which was current as of 2 weeks ago.

I concur with NDD.

Crip

Yeah, I read somewhere that the grappling is a form of the Gracie brothers Brazilian Jujitsu...Hand-to-hand with lethal intent usually goes to the dirt for the choke. It's hard to beat the Brazilian Jujitsu school for that.

Monsoon65

06-27-2007, 20:04

I will never understand why we feel we have to keep re-inventing this wheel.

NDD: I agree. How come the services can't sit down and come up with something everyone can use? Something that can be tailored so you can go lethal or nonlethal, depending on the situation.

The Reaper

06-27-2007, 20:33

The best one I ever heard about it was that the guy who usually wins the hand to hand fight is the one who has a buddy show up first with a loaded weapon.

I believe it.

TR

x-factor

06-27-2007, 21:29

I did Dieter's course in 05, its a very simple, reasonably effective system. Its not the end-all, be-all some folks say it is. But it is "another tool for the toolbox", decent PT, you will get your bell-rung doing it, overall if you have a chance to go....definitly worth doing.

Yeah, I did it in mid-2005 too and that was my take on it pretty much exactly.

3SoldierDad

06-27-2007, 21:38

The best one I ever heard about it was the guy who usually wins the hand to hand fight is the one who has a buddy show up first with a loaded weapon.

I believe it.

TR

A knife trumps a man's hands...a loaded weapon trumps a knife...

kgoerz

06-27-2007, 22:12

Bill Harsey

06-28-2007, 07:54

A knife trumps a man's hands...a loaded weapon trumps a knife...
That all depends on who's first.

Going to the ground and choking someone out only works for "one at a time" opponents.

3SoldierDad

06-28-2007, 08:58

That all depends on who's first.

Going to the ground and choking someone out only works for "one at a time" opponents.

Yes exactly - And, I suppose in a hand-to-hand confrontation - the matter of speed to your knife versus speed to your rifle/pistol matters as well...A knife can theoretically trump a loaded weapon - I'm thinking about the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German soldier kills the GI with a knife when a weapon jams (or out of ammo can't quite remember) and other weapons are otherwise out of reach (one soldier stands petrified outside the door with his loaded weapon) - Although the actual scene was fiction veterans say this combat scenario was not necessarily uncommon as a potential reality in both urban and jungle warfare. It seems victory often depends on a Warrior's readiness and the dexterity of his hands to get to his knife or even better - his gun.

Lesson: A ready loaded weapon trumps an unready and/or unloaded weapon. In the rock/paper/scissors of close promity man-on-man combat the ready rock will always break the unready scissors.

Experts say that lethal hand-to-hand grappling skills, although very rarely if ever to be used, that the skills increase confidence in the individaul Warrior - He knows that if things ever went baseline primal - one man's body to another - that the Warrior could engage and prevail.

It's a fitness thing - both mental and physical. And, it's a contigency that provides a contribution toward peace of mind.

An analogy: 18Es having their PACE - primary, alternative, contigency, and emergency ways of making communications - defaults for possible failure scenarios. In the real world, you'll probably never need contigency or emergency. But, it's nice to know that it is there.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

.

NousDefionsDoc

06-28-2007, 09:06

Ok Chuck,
That post is full of "stuff" - comparing a movie to life, theory, seems, experts, probably...

Let's tone it down a bit neh?

3SoldierDad

06-28-2007, 09:28

Ok Chuck,
That post is full of "stuff" - comparing a movie to life, theory, seems, experts, probably...

Let's tone it down a bit neh?

You're putting a knife to my analogies, huh? ;)

Roger that.

Team Sergeant

06-28-2007, 09:42

Yes exactly - And, I suppose in a hand-to-hand confrontation - the matter of speed to your knife versus speed to your rifle/pistol matters as well...A knife can theoretically trump a loaded weapon - I'm thinking about the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German soldier kills the GI with a knife when a weapon jams (or out of ammo can't quite remember) and other weapons are otherwise out of reach (one soldier stands petrified outside the door with his loaded weapon) - Although the actual scene was fiction veterans say this combat scenario was not necessarily uncommon as a potential reality in both urban and jungle warfare. It seems victory often depends on a Warrior's readiness and the dexterity of his hands to get to his knife or even better - his gun.

Lesson: A ready loaded weapon trumps an unready and/or unloaded weapon. In the rock/paper/scissors of close promity man-on-man combat the ready rock will always break the unready scissors.

Experts say that lethal hand-to-hand grappling skills, although very rarely if ever to be used, that the skills increase confidence in the individaul Warrior - He knows that if things ever went baseline primal - one man's body to another - that the Warrior could engage and prevail.

It's a fitness thing - both mental and physical. And, it's a contigency that provides a contribution toward peace of mind.

An analogy: 18Es having their PACE - primary, alternative, contigency, and emergency ways of making communications - defaults for possible failure scenarios. In the real world, you'll probably never need contigency or emergency. But, it's nice to know that it is there.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

.

Chuck,

Just who are these "experts" you are quoting?

I've never actually seen or heard of any martial arts instructor, IPSC master, or any law enforcement officer going behind enemy lines and killing anyone with his bare hands, I do know Special Forces soldiers that have done so.

Let's keep the "hearsay" to zero. Unless you have walked the walk, keep the "talk" to a minimum. Remember where you are.... this is not military.com.

Team Sergeant

3SoldierDad

06-28-2007, 10:09

Chuck,

Just who are these "experts" you are quoting?

I've never actually seen or heard of any martial arts instructor, IPSC master, or any law enforcement officer going behind enemy lines and killing anyone with his bare hands, I do know Special Forces soldiers that have done so.

Let's keep the "hearsay" to zero. Unless you have walked the walk, keep the "talk" to a minimum. Remember where you are.... this is not military.com.

Team Sergeant

Counsel taken...

I re-read my note and I'm not saying that anyone was behind enemy lines killing someone with their bare-hands.

The experts that I'm referring to are D-Day vets and I'm speaking about accounts of hand-to-hand involving knives, hands and guns - both loaded, within reach, out-of-reach, and otherwise inoperable.

My father's best friend is Roy Creek noted D-Day hero of the 507the PIR - He was spoken about in several of Stephen Ambrose's books - especially about the capture and securing of the bridge at Chef-du-Pont (Roy is quite famous in military circles - I wouldn't be surprised if most of you men over 40 haven't heard of him - perhaps, even know him). I made the trip to Normandy with my Dad, Roy and a group of men from the 507 - heros all. The Spielberg/Hanks movie was coming out about this same time... These men related a variety of stories about weapon-on-weapon hand-to-hand combat - knives, guns, and hand-to-hand wrestling - not unlike that depicted in the film - I refer to the film since it is a famous potrayal of a hand-to-hand situation involving knives and guns.

I did nothing for a week except sit around and listen to their first hand stories. I would hope these men qualifiy as experts...Needless to say, it may be I'm not qualified to say the things I did without more specific citations with whom I am referring to as experts. And, even then this may be the wrong time and place to speak about it - I'm still learning a little situational awareness here.

These men were the primary witnesses to whom I am referring.

Nevertheless, TS, I get your drift...

Thanks.

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

.

Go For Broke

06-28-2007, 11:14

I heard Donvito no longer has the contract to teach combatives at SWCS. Maybe someone will tell us what is being taught now.

WRT SWCS...no clue.

But when I signed in to the 1st Group back in '02, they were teaching combatives - specifically, the thought processes (to differentiate from style or school) of Kelly Worden (Renegade JKD) and Marcelus Alonso (Gracie family BJJ). Nowadays, they are using the thought processes of Chief D. / COL W. / and numerous other guys with martial (military) arts training. The other Groups use other ideas of combatives. It is all good...

I agree that the L.I.N.E.S. / Modern Army Combatives / or whatever "style" is taught, is good for the force. For those in the 1st Group, it has the added benefit, in that it helps to give credibility to us on JCETs with HN forces as I found out when discussing the merits of Pikita Tersia in the Philippines with a PHILMAR.

My only caution would be that we do not get too tied to a system / style that we forget we work in (a) different environment(s), e.g. going to the ground to apply a triangle lock / arm bar - works great in training, until your "partner" steps on your head multiple times or when whipping out your knife when a simple hammerlock would work.

Just my humble $0.02.

On a seperate note - Mr Harsey, how much input did you get from the 1st Group on the design of the Pacific? Looks like there were some Asiatic influenced features i.e., the the curve of the handle and the striations on the pommel.

V/R,

H2H

07-04-2007, 15:43

I heard Donvito no longer has the contract to teach combatives at SWCS. Maybe someone will tell us what is being taught now.

It is my understanding that Ron and Mike have re-located to FL looking for an Air Force contract. There is a great article about Lines vs. Modern Army Combatives in last week AF Times.

SWCS recently had a great group of soldiers graduate from the Level III Modern Army Combatives Instructor Course. I was able to watch the progressing of many of the soldiers starting with the Level I course, then level II and then finally to the 4 week Level III course. As a whole, they were a very skilled group.

I would not want to make any assumptions, but the SF Community is giving a commitment to the MAC Program with training instructors, which could lead to MAC being taught in SWCS.

Maybe there are a few guys from the Level III course on here that could weigh-in with experiences from the course.

Jeff

7624U

07-04-2007, 20:25

It is my understanding that Ron and Mike have re-located to FL looking for an Air Force contract. There is a great article about Lines vs. Modern Army Combatives in last week AF Times.

SWCS recently had a great group of soldiers graduate from the Level III Modern Army Combatives Instructor Course. I was able to watch the progressing of many of the soldiers starting with the Level I course, then level II and then finally to the 4 week Level III course. As a whole, they were a very skilled group.

I would not want to make any assumptions, but the SF Community is giving a commitment to the MAC Program with training instructors, which could lead to MAC being taught in SWCS.

Maybe there are a few guys from the Level III course on here that could weigh-in with experiences from the course.

Jeff

Phase II is going to be teaching Army Combatives now, this group of students in Phase II are the last to be instructed in LINES, Mike and his dad are moving down to Fort Walden Beach FL. They do have the contract with the Airforce now.

Source for this info is myself talking to Mike last month.

ghille45

02-28-2008, 18:41

the army is using the modern army combatives skillset that Matt larsen designed now.

Team Sergeant

02-28-2008, 19:31

the army is using the modern army combatives skillset that Matt larsen designed now.

Thanks, We'll let Matt know.;)

(IIRC He's a member of this board.:D)

TS

Razor

02-28-2008, 21:57

the army is using the modern army combatives skillset that Matt larsen designed now.

I think I heard that somewhere...

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12596&highlight=macp

Defion69

02-29-2008, 00:30

I watched Ron with C/3/7 and Training Group and his skills were sharp. He also seemed to be a pretty good teacher.

The one thing was that he ran training at full speed and there were a lot of fat lips, busted noses, and black eyes, as well as the usual muscle aches and pains, but the application was pretty impressive.

TR

I was in C 3/7 when Ron came down and gave us the courses....it was some good fun beating on each other! :D Good PT as well. Even with the phrase "the safety for this is...." there were still broken noses, ribs or other mashed parts.

Again, as any H2H system it will have it's critics but take the good from it and drive on...better than sitting on one's rear doing nothing.

In the end a true SF soldier does not accept just one method as the end all in anything he does. Whether it is shooting techniques, making commo or the myriad of skill sets required of a QP; we still look for ways to expand and improve. So you new guys learn all you can and find other stuff out there that some of us older guys haven't discovered yet and bring it to the table.

Take care,
JM