Scenario (fight in full gear w/ rifle in hands) [Archive]

Smokin Joe

01-11-2006, 11:20

ROE: Unless you detect a deadly threat you cannot shoot the individual

Scenario: You are in full battle rattle with your M-4 in your hands. You have someone at rifle point there are no visible weapons on the individual but you have Intel that they just stabbed someone. Individual is very non-compliant with your verbal directions in fact they start throwing there hands in the air and challenge you to shoot them. Individual starts walking towards you while challenging you to shoot them. This escalates into a hands on fight, again the individual does not produce a weapon and you have a(n) M-4 (or AR-15) in your hands. What would you do?

Environmental factors: It is night time with limited visibility and your teammates are close but not close enough to assist you in the fight.

Reminders: No OPSEC violations and no super secret TTP's.

What I'm looking for: Dialogue on combative techniques while in full battle rattle with your rifle in your hands as well as efficient down and dirty techniques that will work on a range of individuals from half your size to twice your size.

If you would like to respond me by PM I will sterlize it and re-post it for you.

aricbcool

01-11-2006, 11:54

Smokin'

Have we fixed bayonets? Assuming full battle rattle, we can assume optional items like flashlights, knives, etc.?

I'm glad you posted this. These scenario threads are great.

Regards,
Aric

CPTAUSRET

01-11-2006, 11:57

We were taught to use the vertical butt stroke with the M-1 Garand, (same same M-14) which was sturdy enough to do serious damage, depending on how much force you put behind the blow.

I presume you could use the M-4 in a similar manner.

Terry

Razor

01-11-2006, 12:08

LEO or Mil? I ask, as I don't know if an LEO is allowed by ROE to muzzle strike the guy rapidly in the snoot a couple times to reduce his visibility/will to fight. If that's allowed, then do that, and depending on your battle rattle, you can transition from rifle to Taser or baton/ASP to continue educating him on his bad choices in life. As a non-LEO, I'd interpret the sudden rush at me as deadly intent and shoot him in the grape then and there.

CPTAUSRET

01-11-2006, 12:30

Smokin Joe

01-11-2006, 13:25

LEO, MIL, PMC, or PSD doesn't matter to me; I purposely left it open as to not restrict the information or dicussion flow. We all know what we can and cannot do. So if you can or want drop kick the guy in the nuts I say "right on"; The only hard rule I would like on this scenario is that you cannot shoot them until you detect a deadly threat....interpet that however you would like.

Smokin Joe

01-11-2006, 13:33

Smokin'

Have we fixed bayonets? Assuming full battle rattle, we can assume optional items like flashlights, knives, etc.?

I'm glad you posted this. These scenario threads are great.

Regards,
Aric

Whatever you would carry.

If you have a bayonet fixed then so be it.. however I don't know of any LEO agencies or SWAT teams that allow fixed bayonets also I haven't seen any photo's of Soldiers in the box walking around the streets with fixed bayonets so guage your own realism. If it is prossible and PROBABLE then go with it if not check yourself.

Also use what little info I have given you to sum up your answer. Because this will be all you would normally get in the real world (actually you would be luck to learn that the guy may have just stabbed someone ;) )

Trip_Wire (RIP)

01-11-2006, 13:55

Perhaps now days, most LEOs would have a Taser and use it. If not the old kick in the gonads would do it for both LEOs and Military. Of course, there are the ASP type clubs too; however. with rifle/carbine in hand this isn't easy to do either.

Yes, the M-1 Garand or M-14 would be great for a butt stroke; however. I wouldn't trust an M-16 type weapon to do the same job as they would. I'd be more apt to use the muzzle pokes to the solar plexus or face/head.

Perhaps, we should think about fixing bayonets in the military, when on patrol in areas where close contact with people is common. Nobody likes the idea of getting stuck with the old "cold steel!"

Kicks are great; however, IMHO they often expose one to a lot of good defensive tactics by the subject.

There is also MACE or Pepper canisters that could be used; however, I have witnessed the use of these weapons many times, where the gas blew or bounced back into the face of the person using it. One has to be careful when using these.

Of course, there is always the 3 Cell Mag-light! :)

VelociMorte

01-11-2006, 14:10

OK, I've got good intel telling me he's a bad guy, and he's non-compliant....if he's half my size, I'm raming him in the solar-plexus or throat with my rifle muzzle a couple times. He'll comply when he starts having trouble breathing. If he's twice my size and coming at me, I'm not too keen on being disarmed and shot with my own weapon, so I'm inclined to disconnect his central processing unit, somewhere around C1, with a round through he face. I'm getting too old to be wrestling around with someone twice my size.

aricbcool

01-11-2006, 15:37

Whatever you would carry.

If you have a bayonet fixed then so be it.. however I don't know of any LEO agencies or SWAT teams that allow fixed bayonets also I haven't seen any photo's of Soldiers in the box walking around the streets with fixed bayonets so guage your own realism. If it is prossible and PROBABLE then go with it if not check yourself.

Also use what little info I have given you to sum up your answer. Because this will be all you would normally get in the real world (actually you would be luck to learn that the guy may have just stabbed someone ;) )

Thanks for the clarification. The equipment part is where my lack of experience shows through. Keeping that in mind... here goes:

Muzzle strikes and kicks to the groin sound good to keep the guy at a distance. If he gets in close, I would adjust the grip on my rifle, using it as a striking/leveraging tool to bring him down. In close, the metal action area of the m4, or the muzzle area could work well to the face. Knees, elbows, and a transition to the knife if it gets real bad. One thing that hasn't been mentioned that I would think would come in useful would be a headbutt or two with the kevlar helmet I'd be wearing.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the above by the Pros is welcome and appreciated.

--Aric

JPH

01-11-2006, 21:03

“You have someone at rifle point”
“Individual starts walking towards you while challenging you to shoot them”

I ask how far away it the person and do I at ANYTIME confirm a weapon on his person?

Note: I have NOT been in a gunfight, so I am basing this only on training evolutions.

For myself if anyone is with in 15 meters of my person, and threatening me in any way, (especially if I am in full battle rattle where you would have to be motivated or insane or both to threaten me), I consider them a deadly threat.

I base this statement off a 7-meter knife vs. handgun drill we run at one of the training centers I attended for my PSD/EP training. The way the drill is ran, you set up your armed person with weapon holstered in concealment (daily carry mode), 7 meters from a B27E target then you set up your assailant with a paint stick with red dye, paint, or lipstick on it 7 meters to the 3 or 9 o’clock of the shooter on or 1’ behind the firing line. The shooter and the assailant start talking to each other then at any moment the assailant with out warning charges the shooter.

The goal and point for the demonstration is to show that only well trained persons can see a threat, decided to act, clear-web-draw-aim-engage with 2+ rounds before a attacker with a knife can start cutting them.

There is a name to this drill however at this time I have forgotten it, and there are other ways to do it but this is the simplest to describe in writing. If I can remember the name or think of any other details I might have left out I will edit or post them later.

With all that said I would take in to consideration that with M4 in hand draw time would be eliminated along with target acquisition time and so on. There for the attacker might get a few more seconds to live.

For half my size I would evaluate the person approach if I think I can take them with blunt or edged weapons fighting then I might attempt to end it that way. If the person seems to be acquiring a weapon on their approach or if the person dwarfs me then I would be more likely to engaging with my rifle, if/when the person was closer than 10-15 meters. There by eliminating the hand to hand fighting of your scenario…

The principle paid us to be there, my teammates are counting on me, and I want to go home. I may lose the job may never work again, may face criminal or civil suit? Who know what would happen OR what I will really do, but that’s what we are trained to do in PSD.

LEO and Military may take issue or have other ways to deal with this. I am low man on the pole in EP. I have not work out side the US only local jobs more as on the job training as of this writing as I am still in training and what I do not know would fill volumes.

but thats what I think i would do...

JPH out

Huey14

01-11-2006, 21:47

Just to throw this out for discussion: What about a shot over his head or into the air? Might make him think.

jatx

01-11-2006, 22:10

Just to throw this out for discussion: What about a shot over his head or into the air? Might make him think.

Just remember, you're responsible for that bullet until it comes to a complete stop. ;)

504PIR

01-12-2006, 00:03

I'm assuming by the scenerio that the person is ether is within range of or coming within range of a muzzle strike to the head. Which is my course of action.

I was sent to a H2H course where we did do quite a bit of muzzle strikes. Even with the protective helemts on, a light strike to the head with a rifle barrel will clean your clock.

Trip_Wire (RIP)

01-12-2006, 01:43

Just to throw this out for discussion: What about a shot over his head or into the air? Might make him think.

Most LEOs are prevented by department regulations from using "warning shots." If a firearm is to be used, it should be fired at center mass or head shot if one suspects body armor. :munchin

Smokin Joe

01-12-2006, 02:07

Huey,
I would not be able to crank off a "warning" shot due to policy restrictions...but that doesn't mean you can't. We all have our limits

I ask how far away it the person and do I at ANYTIME confirm a weapon on his person? You do not see a weapon on them at any time.

Everyone,

Think about this...

If have the rifle attached to your body by a sling be it a single, a double, or a 3 point sling system (whatever you have). Now can you still do your muzzle strikes (i.e. is your sling long enough to allow you to muzzle strike)?

I like the potential of transitioning to a less-lethal means such as baton or Taser however if you miss with the Taser or it malfunctions what is your plan "B" and with the baton what are you going to do with your rifle while you swing that baton? My experience has been that the rifle will flop all over the place unless you can effectively trap it to your body.

I let more respond before I add a little tweak to this scenario...

The Reaper

01-12-2006, 02:54

Bright light to the eyes, sidestep and use non-lethal, hard hands, or impact weapons to put him on the ground.

If a weapon is presented, fire until he is no longer a threat.

TR

hoepoe

01-12-2006, 03:59

Huey14

01-12-2006, 04:24

I like Hoepoe's one.

It's interesting your policies don't allow warning shots...but that's a whole differant thread.

Goggles Pizano

01-12-2006, 07:16

Question Joe;

What type of enviornment am I in? Am I in an enclosed area (room, hallway, basement, alley) or somewhat open such as a backyard, field, busy street, empty lot, etc?

sf11b_p

01-12-2006, 10:07

I agree with a muzzle jab to the solar plexus, avoiding hands on. My primary reason is I did once have an individual rush me in a similar manner (which is the only reason I’m responding to this). More out of reflex I stepped into the rush and jabbed my muzzle into that area, it required little force and only one strike to stop his attack and I was still in good position, able to quickly adjust and respond to any further attack from him or anyone else.

My other reasons would be the solar plexus is a good target area, soft, center mass, and near my own natural carry position. It's smooth and fast. It’s hard for an attacker to continue while trying to get air, their natural inclination seems to be to curl up and try to breath. It gave me a chance to avoid a grappling situation. It also keeps my hands on my primary weapon; if the attacker managed to bring up a weapon I’m confident I could quickly put a bullet or five in him.

Given you stated this is already escalated to hands on my responses would be to put my knee hard in his groin, stomp his instep, rake his kneecap and shin with the edge of my boot, dig the muzzle up into his solar plexus, head butt him with my helmet. In short anything to break free of his hands without falling, and then ram the muzzle into his solar plexus and put him on the ground.

Razor

01-12-2006, 10:12

SJoe,

Yes, you can execute a fast, short-stroke muzzle strike with an attached 1/2/3 point sling. In fact, the limitation of a short stroke is probably better in the long run, as without something stopping you, you may be tempted to 'reach out' too far, putting yourself off balance and presenting an opportunity for the BG to grab your barrel. The downside is you need to be very close to the BG to execute the strike, which means you let him in too close to begin with. Since this appears to have a heavy LE flavor (and comes with the associated ROE), TR appears to have a very good solution.

As for the rifle management after transition question, yes it will swing around, but if you're using a one-handed device (ASP, OC, etc), you can stabilize the rifle with your weak hand, as the rifle is hanging near that side anyhow. If you plan to go hands-on with the BG on the ground with a slung rifle, things are going to get interesting regardless.

Assuming in the scenario you're LE, I can only guess at proper department ROE but I'd bet that the transition to Taser/OC would have occured very early in the situation while the BG was still a good distance from you, and that your Plan B was to use the rifle for striking or shooting.

JPH, you're referring to the Tueller drill. As you said, with practice, someone can sucessfully draw and engage a closing BG before the BG gets within contact distance, so the lesson here is...you got it, practice your draw to fire drills so you're capable of doing it. BTW, 15m (almost 50 feet) is a long way away and encompasses a whole lot of people in a mall or busy sidewalk.

HOLLiS

01-12-2006, 10:44

I guess I would fail the test. I would shoot the SOB.

Smokin Joe

01-12-2006, 11:50

Question Joe;

What type of enviornment am I in? Am I in an enclosed area (room, hallway, basement, alley) or somewhat open such as a backyard, field, busy street, empty lot, etc?

Open street about 2000 hrs.

Smokin Joe

01-12-2006, 12:08

Razor,

Thank you for the insight and clarification it makes total sense to me know.

Here is the tweak:

The person who is coming after you is a 280 lb female.

CPTAUSRET

01-12-2006, 12:13

Razor,

Thank you for the insight and clarification it makes total sense to me know.

Here is the tweak:

The person who is coming after you is a 280 lb female.

Who might easily kick your ass...A threat is a threat, gender makes absolutely difference to me.

jbour13

01-12-2006, 12:33

Razor,

Thank you for the insight and clarification it makes total sense to me know.

Here is the tweak:

The person who is coming after you is a 280 lb female.

Though it'd be easy to make fun of this, this kind of scenario is well thought out and I enjoy the insight so far.

From a military standpoint I'd remove myself from the middle of the street if possible to seek out cover, create distance, and continue to try and de-escalate the situation to avoid lethal means. A person is of value if I can take them alive. Going through pockets only allows me to glean partial personality traits, not intent or affiliation.

If it would come to blows I'd use her momentum against her and monkey stomp her. I'm not a fan of allowing a person to get ahold of my gear, nor do I like them getting some of my gear and using it against me. Bad things can happen to you if you have gear on. It allows a person alot of options for handles. If you're trained well enough in hand to hand you can use that against an opponent. Joint locks and bone breaks could be done with ease if a person is set on gripping your gear and not letting go. Someone that has a solid background in judo, jujitsu, or other ground combative could explain how to use a persons clothing/ gear against them.

Pepper spray has it's purpose but I've only used it on animals (damn Iraqi dogs like getting close). Butt stroking would do little to slow her down if she was at a dead run, she has momentum and that is what you want to avoid coming into contact with. If she was closing distance slower but aggressively, I'd jab the muzzle into the throat or stomp on a knee. Butt strokes with the M-4 are nice because it has narrow edges on the collapsable stock. It does lack the mass necessary to do a good follow through. I watched MP's in Mosul holding the barrels and swinging like The Babe with little effect. It stuns a person for a second, but unless you hit something vital you'll only serve to sufficiently piss them off. In that case there were multiple protesters and you hit one....you better be prepared to hit them all quick and practice Run-Fu.

Last thing I want is to struggle with a person that is close to twice my weight. She may not be alone and it'd be a shame to be disarmed by another aggressor after she falls on you and keeps you pinned (even for a few seconds).

If she is not alone I'm all for the 62gr option through the melon and transition to the next target.

Good thread Joe!!!

hoepoe

01-12-2006, 13:14

Here is the tweak:

The person who is coming after you is a 280 lb female.

A weapon does not know what gender controls it. I would still neutralize her in the same manner as previousely posted.

(Over hear we have a single sling, attached at the standard points, tip of the barrel and endge of the butt. When in ops, we have this around our neck allowing full movement.)

As stated before; create space, attack and neutralize. Check surroundings.

Hoepoe

HOLLiS

01-12-2006, 13:48

why I answer what I did from my experiences.

If the person is a shadeed and wants you to meet Allah, I would not let that person get close to me. If the person is clothed, who knows what is under the clothes, (Maywest Joke inserted here..ya' know pistol in the pocket). One maybe be the baddest dude on the block but there is always someone badder, maybe it is this person. Getting viscerated is a terrible way to find out he stills has a knife.

I have seen people double my size who I could have taken on and won, and people half my size who would have owned me in moments. In combat there is no tie, you both loose. The first mistake would be to allow the person to close the distance. Second mistake to touch your weapon or you. There is no sweatness in knowing you killed the SOB after he blew your arm off or?.

longtab

01-12-2006, 17:53

Well I don't know about 280lb women in the street at night, but if I'm wearing kit I tip the scales at 260lbs. Muay-Thai kicks and leg thrusts keep most people at bay, and is how I've dropped people in the past. I've pinned a guy to the corner of the room with my back and knocked him out with my MITCH while clearing my POD. It all falls back on training... you have to train in combatives, 'cuz when you need to you won't magically rise to the occasion and be a Praying Mantis Grandmaster. "Watch the hands"... I would hate to be the guy to have to explain in front of a jury why I shot a bad-guy because as a "green beret" I didn't have the combative skills to neutralize an unarmed opponent.

Roguish Lawyer

01-12-2006, 18:18

The person who is coming after you is a 280 lb female.

Yuck!

I guess the front kick is out, since it could get stuck in the fat folds and never come back.

Smokin Joe

01-12-2006, 19:20

I think TR has a great point. Temp blindness to create a moment in time and get off the line of attack. Once off the line of attack you can re-engage bye whatever means you see fit.

I would probably stomp the crap out of there closest leg and follow on with a muzzle strike to the head, breast bone, or any other hard target that presented itself.

Longtab, I fully agree with your point of view that you must train in combatives to be proficient. Combatives like shooting can be a perishable skill.

Okay so what else can we do to this woman (short of putting a few rounds in her snot locker) to get her on the ground Right Freaking Now?

What do you guys think of kicking the back of the knee or dropping an elbow to the back of their head?

When I think this thread has run its course I will share the story that promted me to post the scenario.

frostfire

01-12-2006, 20:02

What do you guys think of kicking the back of the knee or dropping an elbow to the back of their head?is she taller than the person in this scenario?
Since woman has lower center of gravity (triangle-like structure), her weight-to-height ratio relative to the persons may dictate how easy and hard she falls IMHO...or is it hard to tell/redundant in the heat of the situation

The Reaper

01-12-2006, 23:59

Okay so what else can we do to this woman (short of putting a few rounds in her snot locker) to get her on the ground Right Freaking Now?

Put a pie on the ground in front of her.

I guess that the swift kick to the balls is out now.

Seriously, as you noted, once they are stunned by the light and you are off the line, if they keep moving, there are a number of techniques to cause the momentum to work against them, from leg sweeps, to knee strikes, to clotheslines, to a quick rap to the back of the head. If they stop, then you can engage with the force of your choice at your convenience, pause to reevaluate, or run away.

TR

longtab

01-13-2006, 00:04

When I think this thread has run its course I will share the story that promted me to post the scenario.

Uh... are you a victim of domestic violence? :eek:

Huey14

01-13-2006, 01:05

Smokin Joe

01-13-2006, 01:57

Uh... are you a victim of domestic violence? :eek:

Ouch man that hurt.

Smokin Joe

01-13-2006, 02:02

Instead of moving off to the side, what about running at her and crosschecking-like her in the head/above the breasts with your rifle?

I do apologise if that sounds stupid, I'm trying to think outside the box a bit.

I don't know; could you stop a 280lb female who is coming at you my bullrushing her? I'm about 185lb and in full gear about 210lb. I would probably pass on this technique due to my size vs her size. But if you could pull it off why not. With longtab tipping the scales at about 260 in full gear I'm sure he could pull off the crosscheck or bullrush because there is only about 20lb weight difference, and that could be easily made up for with momentum or force.

Smokin Joe

01-13-2006, 02:11

Put a pie on the ground in front of her.

I guess that the swift kick to the balls is out now.

Seriously, as you noted, once they are stunned by the light and you are off the line, if they keep moving, there are a number of techniques to cause the momentum to work against them, from leg sweeps, to knee strikes, to clotheslines, to a quick rap to the back of the head. If they stop, then you can engage with the force of your choice at your convenience, pause to reevaluate, or run away.

TR

I like the idea of a tactical pie holder incase you need to toss one as a distraction device but I'm not sure where to carry one. :D

I agree with the force re-direction or displacement.

Okay what do you guys think of these? (Good or a waist of time)
Knee kicks
Trips
Sweeps
Stomps to the side or back of leg
Muzzle strike to the side or back of the head
Muzzle strike to neck (anywhere)
Close line
Elbow to the face while stepping past the person (same principle as a close line but its an elbow strike instead)
Elbow the the side of the neck

Does anyone here have the cajones to go for a joint lock on her?

Maisy

01-14-2006, 20:29

If this woman is wearing a full-skirted dress/hijab, would there be a concern that stomps/kicks to the knees/legs might catch your boot in the material, unbalancing you?

Sinister

01-14-2006, 21:38

I got the gun.

Poke the knucklehead in the eye, teeth, or throat with the muzzle of your carbine.

Non compliant? FAck you, I ain't a cop, and I'm jocked up doing my job.

YOUR space dominance -- I AM THE GREAT WHITE SHARK AND I AM DOING MY JOB RIGHT HERE AND NOW.

If you truly are kinder and gentler there are some other tools (if you want to risk the sumbitch getting close enough to rassle your Carbine or pistol from you, and your buddies can't shoot him):

Pepper spray.
Stun gun.
Baton to a brachial nerve area.

But that's bullshit cop stuff.

As one of my Team Sergeants told a youngster with an M9, "Make sure that thing's well-oiled."

"Why?"

"So when the bad guy snatches it from you and jams it up your ass the front sight won't tear anything when we pull it out."

JAKE18

01-17-2006, 02:55

From a Military or PSD point of view:

First off, the individual SHOULD NOT be allowed to get that close. You control the situation not him/her.

Given the scenario and intel, palm heel strike to the chest or muzzle strike to create space and shoot until the threat is down. Hostile threat, Hostile intent. For someone to close distance with you like that there is no other option. But that is just me.

As for LEOs, I have no exprience in that field.

Bob1984

01-17-2006, 05:04

Hello all

1) Front kick to abdomen, this will stun as well as create more space
2) Immediately follow through and step in and give him the good news with your rifle butt (or anything else) until no longer a threat.
3) Check surroundings for any further threats

Hoepoe

Bright light to the eyes, sidestep and use non-lethal, hard hands, or impact weapons to put him on the ground.

If a weapon is presented, fire until he is no longer a threat.

TR

I like both of the above approaches, or perhaps a combination thereof if necessary.

rwt_bkk

01-20-2006, 02:55

well interesting scenario and a lot of well thought out supplies. My thinking might be a little different, maybe my background (non-LEO) has something to do with it.

1. 2000 on the streets in a foreign hostile country with maybe a curfew in place or at the very least not the time anyone is out shopping.

2. Woman doesn't heed directions (language) - makes agressive threatening moves etc.

3. Plenty of suicide bombers and people who just want to be doing the "will of God" by killing you.

4. Local people know the ROE

if the above is also true then I'm sorry I am not going to get close enough to be a part of the blast radius..

My experience: Once - we captured a prisoner. He was shot in our ambush and crawled off into the brush. I spotted him on our way to the LZ and the tail gunner called out in his language for him to put up his hands. He raised one hand, the tail gunner shot him. Why - he didn't put up two hands. We had a lot of those "willing to die - if they could kill us" type guys too in those days.

Of course in saying that in today's world - yeah you are going to have to explain a lot. But hey I just tell them I'm suffering from PTSD and she looked like a VC to me...:boohoo

Razor

01-20-2006, 13:06

At 280lbs, I think you'd be better off saying she looked like she ate a VC (or two).

longtab

01-20-2006, 17:49

I got the gun.
Doh... and how about that 'drop gun' too?

I poked a soon-to-be-PUK in the forehead as he tried to get off a couch instead of getting down. My M4's suppressor adapter gave him quite the gash on the noggin.

Anyway... so spill the beans about this thread already? What gives? Is Al-Qaida actively recruiting 280-lb chicks capable of wind-sprints to unexpectedly attack us on own streets at night? 'Cuz I'll start carrying a pie everywhere I go as a precaution!

Smokin Joe

01-21-2006, 17:24

Doh... and how about that 'drop gun' too?

I poked a soon-to-be-PUK in the forehead as he tried to get off a couch instead of getting down. My M4's suppressor adapter gave him quite the gash on the noggin.

Anyway... so spill the beans about this thread already? What gives? Is Al-Qaida actively recruiting 280-lb chicks capable of wind-sprints to unexpectedly attack us on own streets at night? 'Cuz I'll start carrying a pie everywhere I go as a precaution!

-LOL

Okay Okay the story:

This was taken from a situation that a friend of mine found himself in.

The situation:

A rural Deputy (he’s about 26 yrs 6-3 and 200lbs) who was assisting the local Police with the location and apprehension of a known violent felon, the suspect is 285-290 lbs drunk, black female, who stabbed her neighbor in a dispute. The Deputy was first on scene and located the woman as she was waddling across the street in an attempt to flee the scene. The Deputy pulled up short (too short IMHO) he got out of his truck with his rifle in his hands (It is a bare bones bushmaster M-4forgery) he leveled the rifle on the suspect and ordered her to get on the ground. She starts flailing her hands (which were empty) in the air, pulling the typical “Fuck you motherfucker, go ahead shoot me, I fucking dare you” type slang while approaching the Deputy. He continued to order her on the ground she refused to comply and scooted up to with in arms reach of the Deputy. He never identified any weapon on her. She grabbed him they got into a tussle and in the commotion the barrel of his rifle slammed upside her head and knocked her on her heels. The Deputy finishes her off and dumps her to the ground. Total time from stop to on the ground is about 6-10 seconds.