View Full Version : Need advice on a new scope...
I'm looking for a new scope for a Sako .270 Win I have. I deer hunt and target shoot with it. Looking at the Zeiss product line in particular. I am open to suggestions from the peanut gallery.
I want quality but I don't have bottomless pockets, ie. I want to keep it real. The $ 1,000.00 price range is where I'm at.
Any PM's, suggestions, links, etc. are welcome from those in the know.
Thanks in advance.
Doc
longrange1947
11-24-2005, 21:33
Look to the Euro line of Ziess instead fo the US line. It is far more complete and includes Scopes by Hendsolt. Dam fine scopes and some you can have at your price level. Not about to say which would be best for you as I am not sure what type of hunting, time of day, target shooting habits, etc.
Besides what I love you may hate. :D
Add to the fact that I have a basic yellow streak that prevents me from advising medical personnel. :munchin
LR,
I've started going through the lineup they have on their web site. I will be shooting paper targets during the day and deer during periods of low light (early morning/late evening) so I'm thinking of something along the lines of a 4X12x44 or 50.
Does any particular model that you can reccommend come to mind?
Thanks,
Doc
brianksain
11-27-2005, 20:22
Disregard.
The Reaper
11-27-2005, 20:39
I'll step up with a small opinion here and say that for most common purposes, the Leupolds do everything that I need.
For hunting and shooting out to moderate range, they are a good value.
LR loves the Euro glass, Zeiss, Schmidt and Bender, probably owns a Swarovski as well, he must get a commission from them....:D
TR
In addition to the well established manufacturers mentioned, when and if looking for a quality optic with the price range at 1000 $ and under, I would hint to take a look at the Meopta scopes. Based on what I have seen over here, they have a pretty good price vs. quality ratio.
longrange1947
11-28-2005, 07:40
TR - That was cold! I do not own a Swarovski. S&B but not a Swarovski. Besides Doc asked about Zeiss and I wanted to let him know that there are other Zeiss out there in the Euro market that are not on the US Zeiss site. I own Leupolds and have pointed alot of guys that way as well. However, is you were going to get a free scope and the choice was a Leupold (any model) or a S&B (any model), what do you think you are going to grab? Be honest now! :munchin :D
STR8SHTR
11-28-2005, 16:27
Doc, I put a new Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x50 on a new Remington Sendero this year. I have been a Leupold fan until I purchased this peice of glass. I really like the quality of the optics and it meets my need for the Sendero. It is comparable in price with the Vari-X III line of Leupolds.
Thanks gents.
I think I'm going to see what kind of deal I can get on a Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x50 for the Sako.
I'm also going to look at a new set of rings, perhaps the Sako Optilocks I saw on their web site. I was told years after I bought my Sako in West Germany that I should of had the rings included with the weapon when I bought it. Thanks AAFES. :mad:
I'm probably going to start hand-loading my .270's in the near future. If nobody minds, I start a new thread on that endeavor when I get there.
I'll probably put Leupolds on my other 270's. One is a Remington and the other a Browning. I'll have to space out these purchases so as not to arouse the watchful eye of the warden. :D
Thanks a bunch for the input. It's good to be able to listen to different points of view from guys that know.
Doc
ChandlerSniper
12-08-2005, 22:22
Doc,
Did you ever send me the info we spoke about on the reticle? I never got the email.
Scotty
I'm probably going to start hand-loading my .270's in the near future. If nobody minds, I start a new thread on that endeavor when I get there. hmmm...what kind of press are you getting...?
I'm really beginning to dig the US Optics scopes. I saw a couple at the SOTIC Competition this week beig used by a 3rd Gp team. There's had the Horus reticle which seem a little "busy" for me, but I think with a mildot reticle it would be "the heat". I was suprised to see how much my M24's Leupold M3LR zero moved when I was in SOTIC. It bumped the reticle 5 right and 7 up if I remember crrectly. A buddy of mine brought an M14 w/ a Sage stock w/ a US Optics scope to Iraq this last trip. He said the gun builder put the US Optics scope on the gun after he smacked it hard up against a pole and said "let goto the range". Apparently he sighted in the gun prior and it still maintained its zero. I've always been a Leupold Vari-X family fan, but I think the next scope I'll jockey for will be the US Optics. Longrange1947 [Mr. B]... have you guys looked at US Optics scopes yet? I keep forgetting to ask ya'll.
Doc,
Did you ever send me the info we spoke about on the reticle? I never got the email.
Scotty
Sorry for the delay Scotty. PM sent to you.
Thanks,
Doc
hmmm...what kind of press are you getting...?
I have never hand-loaded before and open to suggestions in all aspects of this endeavor.
Thanks,
Doc
longrange1947
12-09-2005, 08:25
Long Tab - Take care with the US Optics scopes. We had two of them for evaluation and neither was spec'ed. The mil dot pattern on one was way off and the other had repeatablility errors. For the price I would do S&B or Zeiss. I am not a fan of US Optics. The leupold with Gen II reticle by Premeir is a fine scope as well and I would look at that before the US Optics.
Also as you noted, the Horus Reticle is very busy and hte observation scope is te same. They are supposed to be use dtogether, but you have trouble seeing trace with the pattern in the scope. Not being able to see trace is a "bad thing" when trying to correct for miss.
I have never hand-loaded before and open to suggestions in all aspects of this endeavor. depends...if all i were going to load was ammunition for a bolt-action rifle, where accuracy was Job #1, i would get an RCBS Rock Chucker or something like that...you load one round at a time, one component at a time...it is slow, but you are handcrafting each round...if you plan on doing a good deal of shooting in the semi-automatic mode, with either rifle or pistol, i'd recommend a Dillon progressive press...i have an RL 500 from around 1987 that i need to send back for reconditioning that works well...you can reload individual rounds in the same fashion as an RCBS, but you can also crank out a boxload of pistol or 5.56 rounds, as well...
my $0.02
longrange1947
12-09-2005, 10:17
Doc - I would look at getting one of the RCBS Rock chucker kits first. A lot of guys have started hand loading and have found it to be too tedious for their tastes. They soon lose interest and are out a bunch of money if they go high end right off the bat. The nice thing about the rock chucker is that it is versatile and can become your back up your progressive breaks down or needs to go in for anything. It also gets you started and allows you to have the basics that will be needed regardless of the press you wind up using. If you are only going to load for accuracy then that is all you need.
Be careful though, this can become a very addictive hobby with thousands of dollars spent for that last little .001 moa of accuracy. :D
The Reaper
12-09-2005, 11:00
Concur with the Rockchucker.
I started loading for IPSC with one, eventually retiring it for match loading only, using a Dillon 550 for mass production.
If I were only going to do match or hunting loads, I would still get the Rockchucker. If I were running 1000 rounds at the time, I would go with the 550 or 650 from Dillon.
HTH.
TR
Peregrino
12-09-2005, 11:12
Be careful though, this can become a very addictive hobby with thousands of dollars spent for that last little .001 moa of accuracy. :D
Doc - LR1947 is right on the money. If you're going to reload go to Midway or one of the other discounters and buy the RCBS Master Kit. It'll get you started for a reasonable price and everything needed (for entry level reloading) is conveniently bundled. It'll get you started and let you learn. If it works out and you realize enough benefits to get hooked on it then you can start doing the process analysis and throwing money at the problem. Every little incremental improvement after that will cost more - sometimes lots more, either time or money and they're both valuable. FWIW - I've still got (and use) the same Rockchucker I bought in 1981. My Dillon is 14 y/o and going strong. And I'm still spending money to "improve" the process. It's a never ending battle. HTH - Peregrino
P.S. - You will need that quality scope (and excellent record keeping) to realize the full potential of your reloading efforts.
Edited to add: I followed a similar route to TR's though I've actually gone to loading even match rifle ammo on the Dillon. The only rounds I "tweak" are the ones I use at 600m for competition. (I'm not a benchrest shooter - the Dillon gives me one round of moa(-) ammo every time I pull the handle which is all I need at the shorter ranges.)
ChandlerSniper
12-09-2005, 11:27
Doc,
I think I have an old rock crusher in a box downstairs.. I`ll look and see whats there. I`ll let ya know what I find.
longrange1947
12-09-2005, 12:48
Also known as thumb crusher when not paying attention. :eek:
I would like to add my thoughts. Some thoughts would be depending on what you want to load for and how many rounds you plane to load for would help in press choice. The Reaper brought mentioned that. I have a Orange crusher (Lyman, had rock crushers) and two 550B's.
Obviously for massive reloading, Dillion, IMHO, is the only way to go. If your doing small loads amounts, say 50 for pistol, RCBS basic kit. Also for target rifle, Neck sizing is all that is needed if the brass will be used in the same rifle, full length sizing will over stress the brass faster. Again the RCBS is a good way to go. I use a RCBS primer seater for precision loads, slower but a better feel.
Problem with Dillion, it is hard to go back to a single stage press after using one. It is a very versatile press though, more expensive. It does a decent job even for more accurate loads too.
But Boys being Boys given time, if you get into reloading, there will come a time where you will need more space for reloading equipment and shortage of equipment won't be a issue. I load for 36 different cartridges, 5 shotgun gauges, and have to form a few cases that are no longer available. I mentioned to a friend, Reloading is to shooting as foreplay is to sex. I have been reloading for over 30 years, and I still have could add to my reloading equipment. Neat stuff out there.
Obviously for massive reloading, Dillion, IMHO, is the only way to go. If your doing small loads amounts, say 50 for pistol, RCBS basic kit.
I was raised as a kid with an RCBS Rockchucker on the work bench so its pretty much all I know. But Dillon has them beats hand down with their calendars and posters! :D
5140
Problem with Dillion, it is hard to go back to a single stage press after using one. It is a very versatile press though, more expensive. It does a decent job even for more accurate loads too.i agee with TR regarding match loads...while i got decent results with the Dillon, i got much better results loading one round at a time, using a powder trickler to get my powder weights rights...i'd say the Dillon was within 1-5% in terms of powder weight, while i could get right to the gnat's back using a powder scale...once again, my $0.02...
Team Sergeant
12-09-2005, 15:29
I was raised as a kid with an RCBS Rockchucker on the work bench so its pretty much all I know. But Dillon has them beats hand down with their calendars and posters! :D
5140
Funny that the guy that takes these pictures for Dillion is supposed to be a "former" 5th Gp SF soldier. Everytime I've gone to Dillion (even with another former 5th Gp Vietnam Vet) this guy always seems to be "gone".
Everytime time I've gone, I've asked to meet him, everytime time I was told "he's here, let me go get him" and when I tell them I'm also a former 5th Gp Soldier he is always "out to lunch".
Funny....
Anyone know if he's really a 5th Gp Vietnam vet?
Sorry Doc for the Hi-jack....
TS
Thanks for the replies. I'll start out as suggested and see how it goes. I don't shoot the .270 a lot. Maybe 20-40 rounds a month at the nearby range. I have always wanted to reload, so now is as good a time as any to start.
Scotty,
Go ahead with the optics plan if you will. I will wait and see what you come up with on the re-loader too. Thanks a bunch for your help.
Doc
Sorry Doc for the Hi-jack....
TS
No problem TS.
Doc
I was raised as a kid with an RCBS Rockchucker on the work bench so its pretty much all I know. But Dillon has them beats hand down with their calendars and posters! :D
5140
Dang, I wish I had weapons instructors and co-students like those in the posters.....
i agee with TR regarding match loads...while i got decent results with the Dillon, i got much better results loading one round at a time, using a powder trickler to get my powder weights rights...i'd say the Dillon was within 1-5% in terms of powder weight, while i could get right to the gnat's back using a powder scale...once again, my $0.02...
I use a Lyman electronic trickle scale for my "precision" loads. They are 338 Win Mag, and 300 Ultra Mag. If I had it to do again, I am not sure I would have not gone to the RCBS or PACT, scale/measure combo if I had to buy one again.
Gene Econ
12-09-2005, 22:19
Thanks for the replies. I'll start out as suggested and see how it goes. I don't shoot the .270 a lot. Maybe 20-40 rounds a month at the nearby range. I have always wanted to reload, so now is as good a time as any to start. Doc
Doc:
I will head in a different direction from conventional wisdom.
Redding Presses and Redding Competition Rifle Dies.
You want an inexpensive kit to start with? Believe it or not -- get a Lee kit that has its Classic Cast press. Cost will be under $150.00 for the kit and you will never get rid of the press or powder measure. The rest of the stuff will eventually break and Lee dies aren't real good. However, it is sufficient for producing good ammo and is cheap enough for you to determine if you want to continue in hand loading.
I use a number of presses and reloading items. I don't care who makes them -- only that they give me the results I want. Redding gives the results.
Sure, I have a Rock Chucker. Have owned it for twenty five years. It has one purpose in my loading area. I have a collet bullet puller on it and use it to pull bullets. I do use one piece of RCBS gear for loading. I bought a bench primer seater at a gun show for ten dollars and it is very handy when seating primers.
Oh yes, what ever you get -- get someone who has loaded many thousands of rounds over the years to take you step by step through your process. Ensure he has all ten fingers and both eyes are original. That is an indicator that the guy knows what he is doing with hand loading. An indicator of a fellow you may not want to walk you through this process is one who tells you that the loading manuals always go low on powder charges due to liability issues. Such guys should be avoided, particularly when they are 'testing loads' on a range.
Have fun -- I have been handloading for close to thirty years and although it is boring as hell, it is a fine way to learn about cartridge and bullet design.
Gene
longrange1947
12-09-2005, 22:45
OK Doc, from what I can see you need a Dillon/RCBS/Lee/Redding. :D :munchin
Heartily agree with Gene on the advice of getting a guy that has reloaded for more than a bit and have him hand carry you through the process.
Do not allow your self to get distracted. It is tedious and can get monotonous, and the mind can wonder. Double check and triple check. Do not place a bullet on an empty case and do not double charge a case. Go slow and deliberate.
Above all, have fun!
The Reaper
12-09-2005, 23:00
In my experience, weighing powder charges has a lot less to do with accuracy than prepping cases properly, picking the right bullets, and loading ammo to the proper specs for your weapon.
I cut my groups in half when I started prepping cases, in half again when I selected the right bullets for the job, and in half another time when I learned that loading to the proper seating depth off the rifling is critical to accuracy and keeping peak pressure down.
Just my experience.
Good seeing you yesterday LR and Longtab.
TR
Gollu I forgot about Lee, they make great stuff, and generally people under rate it because of price. On a single stage press, I used two sets of loading trays.
1) place cases in the first tray, when you resize them they go into the the second tray, right handed cases to be resized on the tray on the right, resized cases go on the empty tray on the left.
2) now switch trays, (assuming rt handedness). Prime the cases, the cases are placed in the empty tray on the left up side down. This allows you to check the primer seating.
3) switch trays, the primed cases are on your right, upside down, flip them up and charge them, and place them on the tray to your left, right side up. This allows you to check the powder depths and insures each case gets charged.
4) switch trays, the charged trays are now on your right, place bullet in case and seat. and place the cartridge in the tray on your left.
Using two trays will help preventing mistakes in over/under charging powder and primer mistakes. Each tray will hold 50 cases.
On a Dillion, only problem I have had was in primer seating. Other problems do arise when the cycle is interupted.
I hope this comes out ok?
longrange1947
12-10-2005, 10:22
Hollis - Same procedure I use. Except I check all cases with a flashlight to make sure each case has a powder charge before beginning bullet seating. This is especially true if interrupted during the powder cycle.
Thanks Guys.
I will go slow and deliberate. I bought The Complete Reloading Manual for the
.270 Winchester today. This looks like a new adventure. I can see the need to be careful.
Hopefully the new glass and rings will be on top of the Sako soon.
It's nice to have a basement where I can set things up.
Please stay open to questions.
Doc
brianksain
12-11-2005, 11:12
Ever locate that scope Doc?
Ran across one (Zeiss) I might be able to get at a steal.
I have a Rockchucker as well ... my main press.
BK
Ever locate that scope Doc?
Ran across one (Zeiss) I might be able to get at a steal.
BK
Thanks briansain but ChandlerSniper has already got one ordered for me. It should be in this week. Thanks for thinking about me.
Doc
brianksain
12-12-2005, 08:38
Easy day. Good luck with the project.
BK
Team Sergeant
12-12-2005, 09:15
One last thing about reloading, keep meticulous notes....
Only load 20 at a time, that way if your gun doesn't like the load you will not have too much time invested. (20 should let you know how they handle.) I've not hand loaded rifle but have loaded thousands of handgun rounds....
TS
brianksain
12-13-2005, 07:12
TIP:
If the air conditioning vent in your reloading room blows directly on your reloading table, be sure and turn the fan off before weighing powder charges with a powder scale.
The scale is sensitive enough for the blown air to cause an errant measurement.
fwiw
Peregrino
12-13-2005, 13:10
TIP:
If the air conditioning vent in your reloading room blows directly on your reloading table, be sure and turn the fan off before weighing powder charges with a powder scale.
The scale is sensitive enough for the blown air to cause an errant measurement.
fwiw
Don't forget ceiling fans too! I moved some of my equipment around and couldn't figure out why my powder charges weren't consistent. It took me 10 minutes of adjusting the powder measure and checking the scale before I figured out what was going on - duh! :o It's the obvious things you take for granted/don't even think about that'll trip you up. (And I've been doing this for 27 years. It's a good thing I'm meticulous about cross-checking.) FWIW - Peregrino
longrange1947
12-13-2005, 13:46
I was wondering if the admins could break out the reloading part into a new thread. This is info that others may like to have but do not know it is hidden in a scope thread.
Just wondering. :)
VelociMorte
12-13-2005, 14:27
Some tips on reloading high pressure rifle cartridges:
It's almost impossible to double-charge a rifle cartridge if you're using the correct propellent, so your greatest danger is case-head seperation. Case-head seperation at 50,000+ copper units of pressure can be akin to having a pipe-bomb explode next to your face. You might get lucky and avoid the big, fast pieces, and you might not. To avoid the situation altogether...
Start out with new brass, or brass that you KNOW to be "Once-fired". The first time you reload for a particular rifle, do a full-case resize. After you've fired these in a particular rifle, and only if you intend to fire them from the same rifle again, only resize the neck. This avoids stressing the area just in front of the case-head. ALWAYS inspect your cases for cracks or leaks around the primer pocket, and for cracks or a bright band just forward of the case-head. Depending on how hot you load, find a happy number at which to dispose of your brass. I use 3 for maximum loads, and 5 for anything less. After that, throw the brass away. It's not worth spending an hour extracting the case remnants or blowing up your rifle and your face to save a couple bucks. A case-head sep in an auto-loader is usually no big deal..( http://www.tacticalsupplies.us/media/case_ead_seperation.mpg )... .it can be a little more messy with a bolt-gun.
I'm a little late on the original thread. I have 3 USO scopes and I have never had a problem with any of them. The only issues I had were with rings that they made. Stick with Badger or some of the better ones.
On reloading I stopped doing handgun and shotgun. The reason is you can get 9mm, 40s&w and 45acp cheaper than what it cost you in time and components. It may not be the cleanest but it works fine for close stuff.
I use a single stage press for rifle loads. I load rifle because over time I have matched components to the rifle and they don't sell my combinations. Also I have a few wildcats that have to be handloaded. If you stick with hand loading the best investments are in case preperation. Tumblers, trimmers, the little green machine etc. This is where you'll spend most of your time so it pays to have something that saves time. Giraud trimmers, RCBS case prep green machine, and a good scale and dispenser. The digital stuff is a little on the slow side but I like it because I have trouble tring to see and count the little hash marks. I guess this is just plain old age.
Sorry to bump an old thread.
Doc, how have you found the scope?
Yep, it's a Zeiss and I had it mounted and bore sighted yesterday.
longrange1947
01-08-2006, 12:36
Which one, and let me know how you like it. :)
Which one, and let me know how you like it. :)
Zeiss Conquest 4.5 x 14
I was impressed this afternoon after shooting with it for the first time. At 100 yards you could put a quarter over the groups. Did I "pull" one or two rounds out of the 9 groups I fired? You betcha, but the glass and rifle did fine IMHO.
Maybe I'm just lucky. I'd rather be lucky than good. :D
First off, excellent choice on the .270! I hunt deer, groundhogs, and shoot target with a Rem .270 Sendaro back in PA. It's often an overlooked round. SIDE NOTE: I didn't think you could hunt deer in OH with a rifle anymore? I though it was only shotgun.
Anyway, as far as a scope, I'd go with a Leupold 4.5-14x50mm VX-III. I like the quality and the price. Your profile says your from Ohio, that's a lot like PA where I grew up and hunt whitetail every winter. Even if you are hunting fields 14x will be plenty and 4.5 will be alright for the running shots if it's not right on you. Thats what they make iron sights for right. This coming from a guy who used is 6.5-20x to hunt deer a few years back and shot one at 15 yards. I used that gun to hunt groundhogs all summer and I could pull up on 20x and be right on what I wanted to hit so I felt comfortable using it. I only use a flintlock anymore.
The 14x might be a little low for target but with the slightly higher resolution the 50mm system give you I don't think it won't be much of an issue. I you weren't using it for target I'd go with the 3.5-10 hands down.
Just my thoughts...
You are correct, shotgun only in Ohio for deer. I went to S.C. this past year where rifles are allowed for hunting them.
I can't shoot deer in Ohio with a rifle but I can shoot ground hogs all day long in Ohio with a rifle. Go figure.
I've liked the .270 every since I read Jack O'Connor's articles about the round.
Take care,
Doc
Shotty on deer? That's just wrong.
New scopes headed this way also for test weapons, the S&B PMII 5-25x56 and S&B PMII 1.1-4x20 Short Dot.
VelociMorte
01-18-2006, 07:41
You are correct, shotgun only in Ohio for deer. I went to S.C. this past year where rifles are allowed for hunting them.
I can't shoot deer in Ohio with a rifle but I can shoot ground hogs all day long in Ohio with a rifle. Go figure.
I've liked the .270 every since I read Jack O'Connor's articles about the round.
Take care,
Doc
Doc, while you were in S.C., did you happen to witness deer hunting with dogs? It's quite a sight. They use shotguns loaded with buckshot. A bunch of guys line up on a road, just within shotgun range of each other. They usually get dressed in camo, and then sit on a swivel chair in the back of their trucks parked along the side of the public roads. Another "hunter" releases the dogs some distance away, on the other side of the selected field. The dogs chase the deer towards the guys on the road. As the deer run across the road between the guys sitting on their trucks, they open fire. I actually participated in this once, but the buckshot whizzing by my head kinda scared me away from it. As a matter of fact, there are so many dumbass hunters here, I don't get into the woods during hunting season anymore, unless I'm on a private hunt club. Even then, stupidity abounds.
In one hunt club I belonged to a few years back, we were sitting around the fire after the day's hunt. One of the guys mentioned that he took a "good sound shot" . I asked him where his deer was. He said " I don't know if it was a deer". I said" I thought you made a sound shot?". He said, " I did. I heard a sound in the woods behind me and shot at it". I got up and left.
Doc, while you were in S.C., did you happen to witness deer hunting with dogs? It's quite a sight. They use shotguns loaded with buckshot. A bunch of guys line up on a road, just within shotgun range of each other. They usually get dressed in camo, and then sit on a swivel chair in the back of their trucks parked along the side of the public roads. Another "hunter" releases the dogs some distance away, on the other side of the selected field. The dogs chase the deer towards the guys on the road. As the deer run across the road between the guys sitting on their trucks, they open fire. I actually participated in this once, but the buckshot whizzing by my head kinda scared me away from it. As a matter of fact, there are so many dumbass hunters here, I don't get into the woods during hunting season anymore, unless I'm on a private hunt club. Even then, stupidity abounds.
In one hunt club I belonged to a few years back, we were sitting around the fire after the day's hunt. One of the guys mentioned that he took a "good sound shot" . I asked him where his deer was. He said " I don't know if it was a deer". I said" I thought you made a sound shot?". He said, " I did. I heard a sound in the woods behind me and shot at it". I got up and left.
Interesting post on a couple of fronts. I have driven by and seen people deer hunting with dogs in S.C. and N.C. I don't do that sort of thing but it's legal in some counties and to each his own. I was fortunate on this last trip. Three of us got to hunt by ourselves on 3500 acres of private land next to the Savannah River.
I will bow hunt on public land during the bow only season but not gun hunt on public lands due to safety concerns. I was almost shot by an O-3 years ago on Bragg and don't want to ever experience that sort of thing again.
I've heard of sound shots before and it's the most dangerous thing I've heard a "hunter" say in my life. You did the right thing by walking off from the individual that said that.
Doc
The Reaper
01-18-2006, 19:26
Shotty on deer? That's just wrong.
Better for congested areas, shot doesn't travel as far.
The hunter has to get closer to the deer, and/or learn to use slugs.
TR
Better for congested areas, shot doesn't travel as far.
The hunter has to get closer to the deer, and/or learn to use slugs.
TR
I really don't like the idea of using shot on deer. They deserve a clean kill and the average hunter probably can't deliver that consistently with shot. Slugs are another matter, but if you are good enough to stalk within range (or patient enough to freeze in your stand), why not just take it up a notch and go with black powder? Now THAT's hunting. :D
BTW, I am not against high-powered rifles with optics for larger game or long distances, they're just not my choice for your garden variety deer.
VelociMorte
01-19-2006, 07:03
I've heard of sound shots before and it's the most dangerous thing I've heard a "hunter" say in my life. You did the right thing by walking off from the individual that said that.
Doc
Well, I did manage to condense every profanity known to man into one sentence as I was leaving....
Better for congested areas, shot doesn't travel as far.
The hunter has to get closer to the deer, and/or learn to use slugs.
TR
Makes sense. I didn't think of it because we don't have that problem here...have to watch out for the Deerstalkers Assoc. though. A lot of them seem to be the blast away at any movement/noise types. I don't assocciate with them.