View Full Version : Magazine Retention
Gene Econ
09-17-2005, 08:30
Question:
Why is there such a fixation on retaining empty magazines in Army units? Guys will spend a whole bunch of time trying to stuff empty magazines into their pockets or back into pouches when the situation dictates to just drop them and continue to shoot.
Not sure how this way of doing business came about and am trying to influence commanders to emphasize the soldiers life over holding on to a fifteen dollar empty magazine.
What happened over the years? :confused:
Thank you
Gene
The Reaper
09-17-2005, 08:49
Gene:
Actually, last time I checked, mags were more like $6 each.
I think the issue is because they are organizational issue accountable property and do not come in Class V the way bandoliers do.
If you think about it, who do you go to for more, and when was the last time you saw them being dropped off in a resupply?
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Commanders may be afraid of fraud, waste, and abuse.
Agree that an empty mag is a low priority and should be dropped in dire situations. I don't know if it is logistically feasable to drop and go. Also, I've seen ammo drops that are just cases of ammo and no mags.
Lotta different ways to peel this onion. :eek:
Gene,
The situation should determine what is done. But I can see retaining magazines. A rifle is no good with out them. A full magazine is best, a empty one can be reloaded, NO magazine means rifle don't work. When I was overseas, magazines were in short supply. I saw were soldiers today shared a common opinion that we had. They wanted to carry more ammo.
If you drop a magazine, you may not be able to go back and retreive it later when it is OK to do so. I bet if Ammo came already in magazines, you would not see them concerned about trying to keep empty magazines. I carried 35 magazine (20rds).
You can have all the ammo in the world but with out a magazine, a M16/m14 etc is almost worthless.
Sirs, wouldn't it take up much more space to haul magazines than bullets in resupply?
Perhaps that could be an issue, especially with resupply air drops.
Martin
He had served in Somalia with 10th MT and said they couldn't get mags resupplied to save their lives...literally. So I know his take on it, then too, what about the old scenario of being trapped in a firebase (FOB, whatever...) and needing aerial resupply. Those ammo cans don't come with their own magazines.
Seems like a good policy to me.
NousDefionsDoc
09-17-2005, 20:04
If you want mags (or better yet loaded mags) in your bundle, you have to pack the bundle yourself and one of your kind has to bring it.
I will drop one on the ground in a heartbeat.
The only reason I can see for not is you don't want to supply the enemy, but with the enemies we have today, I doubt mags are much of a problem for them.
Gene Econ
09-17-2005, 20:24
Fellows:
You all have given me some good insight into the thinking behind this topic. Honestly, I have been involved in this type of thing for more than a few years of my life and at times I have to ask again -- kind of like a different set of eyes. Well, I can't see as well as years past but your input shows that things haven't changed and that is of value.
This one is a simple fix.
Gene
whatever happened to the polycarbonate magazine-bullet combination that the Germans were experimenting with...22 years ago...?
Question:
Why is there such a fixation on retaining empty magazines in Army units? Guys will spend a whole bunch of time trying to stuff empty magazines into their pockets or back into pouches when the situation dictates to just drop them and continue to shoot.
Not sure how this way of doing business came about and am trying to influence commanders to emphasize the soldiers life over holding on to a fifteen dollar empty magazine.
What happened over the years? :confused:
Thank you
Gene
Maybe because they're in bed with the mag dump mag manufaturers... have you seen the price of dump bags lately?! ;)
Get an EGL Low Profile Folding dumper. Takes up very little space until you need it, is PALS compatible to fit just about anywhere, and can be used for a host of functions besides dumping empty mags.
The Reaper
09-18-2005, 15:39
Get an EGL Low Profile Folding dumper. Takes up very little space until you need it, is PALS compatible to fit just about anywhere, and can be used for a host of functions besides dumping empty mags.
Second to that!
TR
NousDefionsDoc
09-18-2005, 15:50
Third - I have one too.
Guys
Thanks for the plug re: Loppys, sorry I havent been on the last few months.
EGG
Hey! Get your butt off the computer and get back to your sewing machine! :D
hehe! I would if I could, got a service tech coming in this afternoon to REBOOT my sewing machine, and also to look at my other machine.
EGG
Trip_Wire (RIP)
10-17-2005, 13:37
I assume we are not talking about pistols here, as I always treat them different then I would other magazines, especially if they seem to work well in my pistol.
I wonder if the Clinton assault weapons ban and magazines restricted to 10 rounds could have anything to do with the Army's accountability mentallity in CONUS prior to the lifting of the ban. I suspect that 30 Rd Mags would have sold for a good price in those days. :munchin
Team Sergeant
10-17-2005, 14:32
I wonder if the Clinton assault weapons ban and magazines restricted to 10 rounds could have anything to do with the Army's accountability mentallity in CONUS prior to the lifting of the ban.
I was active duty through slick willies term. His ban had zero impact on our accountability of any mlitary equipment, zero.
Trust me when I say slick willie was much more interested in relaxing the "rules" for the "butt pirates" in the military than focusing on how we do business.
TS
Peregrino
10-17-2005, 18:50
Gene - We've kicked this question around before on some of the pistol threads. I am a firm advocate of dropping expended mags - most of the time. I have to concede that circumstances will dictate TTPs especially with regard to retaining/discarding expended magazines. (Big Boyz ought to be smart/experienced enough to know when to do what!) In all fairness it's been a long time since I was in "indian country" and things have changed a bit. I was never where I couldn't go back to pick up discards or get a resupply. (LATAM is/was not RVN or the sandbox - and I don't envy anybody from either theater!) Personally I think the emphasis on always/only doing tactical (retained) reloads was taken out of context by the "Walter Mittie" crowd and turned into an unreasoning cult gospel. :p
Now - Let's expand the discussion a bit! I haven't worn an assaulter's kit in years and the last time I did, drop bags (and most everything else too!) were improvised. Eagle was the only reputable manufacturer and the IMPAC C/C wasn't invented yet. I'll be working with a friend over the next few months to get my gear up to speed (and looking at some of your stuff Eggroll - it comes recommended by the right people). If we're retaining magazines - and a drop bag is the only smart way to do that - where is a "southpaw" that shoots his carbine right handed going to put a dump pouch without interfering with his (left) leg holster? Or should I get a chest rig for the pistol and mount it on the IBA? Given that mounted/urban ops have redefined the requirements what's an acceptable solution (read "direction to start experimenting"). IMWTK - Peregrino
Gene Econ
10-17-2005, 20:31
I am a firm advocate of dropping expended mags - most of the time.....I was never where I couldn't go back to pick up discards or get a resupply....Personally I think the emphasis on always/only doing tactical (retained) reloads was taken out of context by the "Walter Mittie" crowd and turned into an unreasoning cult gospel....Given that mounted/urban ops have redefined the requirements what's an acceptable solution (read "direction to start experimenting"). IMWTK - Peregrino
Mr. 'P':
I cut and spliced your original message for brevity. I concurr totally with your views.
An acceptable solution is to drop the thing on the ground unless you have the opportunity to retain it. So far, we haven't been driven off a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan and if someone wants to look for a magazine, he can. If he loses it, he can get it replaced these days.
As for mounted operations, take my word for it as a former Mechanized guy -- you want as little to get caught on things in a vehicle as possible. Guys start out with a whole bunch of stuff on their body armor. Anything that does not give a edge in terms of speed / survival soon disappears from the gear.
I am not sure how guys approached drop pouches as few I know used them. I do know that the drop pouches work quite well. I also know they take up more room on ones body armor and they will get caught on things as any pouch will. I will ask some of the guys who thought they were a good idea prior to deployment as they are all back now.
Gene
longrange1947
10-19-2005, 20:45
OK, my two cents. We carried more ammo than mags. We retained mags so we could reload if we got in a bad situation. I am talking about CAR15/M4 mags here, not pistol mags.
We did carry a crap load of mags but we still carried more ammo than mags as the ammo took up less space than mags. Even with fire discilpline, ammo can go fast when the heart rate goes up and the bad guys are near. Sometimes exfil or resupply can be a problem.
I could careless what a mag costs, I just don't want a single shot CAR15. We seldom were able to go back and pick up mags after we got chased out of an area.
Having just returned from OEF, I can tell you that to get more magazines is a hassle. Not impossible, but not easy, and they certainly will not come with the next LOGPAC. It's much easier to retain the old ones, plus with the tape and 550 cord the work is already done. Not to mention the fire fights we got into there was only one time where we had to drop them and had no time to secure them. But they were still picked up afterwards by the soldiers themsselves, they just did it because they could and had the discipline to do so.
Will drop and leave if necessary, just hasn't been yet.
oorah4jc
01-12-2006, 09:54
Sorry for reviving the dead, but I have been thinking about this topic. Has anyone tried attaching the mags to your rig using some sort of lanyard (550 cord, etc.)?
Yes, and they dangle, tangle and bang all over the place on the run but it works. Nothing I think anyone would do unless SOP'd.
The Reaper
01-12-2006, 11:31
Sorry for reviving the dead, but I have been thinking about this topic. Has anyone tried attaching the mags to your rig using some sort of lanyard (550 cord, etc.)?
You need to use the search button before posting here, especially when reviving old threads.
TR
oorah4jc
01-12-2006, 14:58
Roger that, Sir. My google-fu is evolving slowly.
And roger on the SOP. If my unit wants to constantly hand me new mags, then the floor is where they're headed. Just something I was thinking about.
Delta Recon
01-14-2006, 08:25
Guys:
Situation dictates tactics. My war (VN) with the Special Projects meant that we did not get resupply drops, stealth was our primary means of protection which included leaving a sterile area.
In the middle of a firefight, mags were dropped unless you could slip them into your blouse to be secured later. Idea was not to leave anything for the enemy and to leave as little trace of your passing or identity as possible. Things have changed, but those were the rules.
Currently, as a forensics guy, I just don't like to leave any more evidence than I have to. It is just habit.
As a recon operative, we carried 10 twenty round mags loaded with 18 rounds each in 2 M14 mag carriers; one twenty rounder in the weapon; one thirty rounder wrapped in our spare socks on our left leg cargo pocket, another couple of thirty rounders in our rucksack and a couple of twenty rounders in the outside pockets of our rucks so our teammates could get to them. We seldom fired on full auto except for suppressing fire in a break contact situation because no more ammo was going to be available. Different war, differeint types of operations, different tactics. I am sure Rick B will understand.
Of course, if we were going in on an assault with the Rangers or on a Bright Light, we loaded right up, usually with bandoliers.
Desert Fox
01-16-2006, 14:21
Just an idea for training: paint the upper part of the mag in bright orange/red. While in the pouches or loaded you dont see the painting, just when it is on the ground. Maybe it would work.