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Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 07:15
Lets talk techniques.

Rules:
1. All techniques are for unarmed attacks and defenses
2. Respond to the attack and list the benefit of your response
3. Only list one defense technique per post.

Let it run for a couple of answers before posting a new scenario

I'll prime the pump.

Attack: You are grabbed from behind in a bear hug. Your arms are trapped against your body. Your attacker is leaning back, lifting your feet off the ground. What do you do?

Huey14
08-30-2005, 07:43
Kick him in the balls?

Benifits (As I see it): Attacker is temp. fucked if you kick him hard enough and could release you.

Spartan359
08-30-2005, 08:13
First I would attempt to head butt him with the back of my head. Grab his balls with one of my hands. The instant he would let my feet touch the ground I would spead them to the sides so when I looked down his feet were between mine and I would attempt to bend over and grab his ankles and pull up as hard as I could knocking him on his ass. The result would be him falling and hitting the back of his head on the floor and me landing on top of him extremely pissed :mad: .

hoepoe
08-30-2005, 08:48
In no particular order :

1) Attempt to heat butt (back of head to nose)
2) Heel to shin or heel/foot to kneecap
3) Lean forward hard causing the assailant to pull back harder, then throw all my weight back throwing him on his back
4) grab balls and hurt
5) Bite anything within reach (his arms etc) but careful not to draw blood. aids 'n shit
6) as soon as i get loose whip his ass

Hoepoe

VelociMorte
08-30-2005, 10:25
Gut him like a fish. I'm never unarmed.

Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 10:41
Gut him like a fish. I'm never unarmed.

In this thread you are

Smokin Joe
08-30-2005, 12:24
Hook one of his legs with one of mine. This neutralizes his ability to pick you up and spike you into the ground
Slip my hips to one side or the other
Grab groin, squeeze, twist, and pull it off
(if his hands are still around my body) peel a hand off by his fingers
lower my center of balance, step behind attacker, then turn into him
Crush his larynx or choke him to the ground
If he is still a threat (in my assessment) by the time he hits the ground I will monkey stomp him into dream land.
I won't stop attacking him until he is unconscience.


This is a very dangerous attack that can cause you serious physical injury or death. You should respond in kind.

Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 13:16
Anyone have a scenario?

Smokin Joe
08-30-2005, 14:19
Kyo,

Do you want them here or in new threads?

Spartan359
08-30-2005, 14:46
Attack: You are pinned down on the ground with the attacker on top of you. He has his right knee in your sternum and the other on your right forearm. His left hand is choking you and his right hand is holding down your left arm. Your oxygen supply is quickly running out. What do you do?

Smokin Joe
08-30-2005, 14:57
Attack: You are pinned down on the ground with the attacker on top of you. He has his right knee in your sternum and the other on your right forearm. His left hand is choking you and his right hand is holding down your left arm. Your oxygen supply is quickly running out. What do you do?

With his knee on your sternum he has a poor base of support so Buck him off you. It can go a hundred was from there.

Smokin Joe
08-30-2005, 15:03
Attack:2 men of average size approach you 1 is carrying a map and is asking you for directions.
BG #1: Has a map in hands and is holding it up as they approach and enter your personal space. He is very friendly and looks non-threatening.
BG#2: Is not displaying any signs of aggression either.

Range:They are now in your personal space

BG#2: Grabs your upper body.
BG#1: Grabs your waist.
They are trying to take you to the ground.

What do you do?

Tetrian
08-30-2005, 17:00
Would be nice with a little more info regarding positions on the attackers during the grab.


Provided atleast the torse dude is in front of me and close enough to get a solid lock on his head, i would grap hold it and then attempt to gouge the eyes out on him on the way down, one by one, or atleast attempt to do enough damage to make him a non threat - if range and other factors doesnt provide an opening for a descent hold on the head, or if balance permits, a quick jabs to the eyes with fingers, pen, keys or similar.(usually carry a pen in my chest pocket for easy access) Again the main point would be to disable him, atleast temporarily.

Waist hight dude, would be next, in case he where behind me i would attempt to grap on to whatever is near, a thumb or similar and a quick rip to break it, goal would be to hopefully interupt his focus for enough time to get clear or get an opening for further attacks, most likely in the form of a joint lock(thing im most "trained" in, so have a feeling it would kick in automaticly) in followed up with an attempt to break said limp, kicks and hits to the head, groin, throat, another eye gouge or similar.


Main point would be to do the one thing most attackers wouldnt be expecting, aka extreme use of violence compared to the norm, most people here(Denmark) are not used to fights escalating so rapidly - an attack being responded to with attempts to disable or kill an attacker could very well give them the shock needed to get me clear.

Or atleast that would be the ideal.


Its really hard to say how I would really react in a situation like that - most likely a few seconds would be lost to thought patterns, despite being mentally prepared that this could be a threat, the first two would go into thinking "this just isnt happening", then considerations about laws and goverment punishments, and similar thoughts. I am attempting to develop a selv defence mindset, as advocated here and other places, but alas, Its not unlikely i would just scream like a little bitch, flail my arms uncontrolably and then get pounded into the ground, well or atleast take a few secs to get started :p

Edit : didnt see the thread on criterias before typing this posts - do hope it can be accepted in its current form.


-Tetrian

Michelle
08-30-2005, 17:18
Attack: You are pinned down on the ground with the attacker on top of you. He has his right knee in your sternum and the other on your right forearm. His left hand is choking you and his right hand is holding down your left arm. Your oxygen supply is quickly running out. What do you do?

I agree that his balance is compromised... I would roll rather than try to buck though (I'm pretty small).

You can also knee the kidney/rib area, or kick him in the back of the head (yes, it's do-able; I just made my co-worker do the scenario with me and was able to do all of the above to him).

I'm going to get fired at this rate.

m1

aricbcool
08-30-2005, 17:22
Hook one of his legs with one of mine. This neutralizes his ability to pick you up and spike you into the ground
Slip my hips to one side or the other
Grab groin, squeeze, twist, and pull it off
(if his hands are still around my body) peel a hand off by his fingers
lower my center of balance, step behind attacker, then turn into him
Crush his larynx or choke him to the ground
If he is still a threat (in my assessment) by the time he hits the ground I will monkey stomp him into dream land.
I won't stop attacking him until he is unconscience.


This is a very dangerous attack that can cause you serious physical injury or death. You should respond in kind.

Nice list Smokin' Joe. :)

A little late to the party, but I would do 1-3, and then pull one of his hands off by the wrist (say my right hand, his left wrist), twist under his arm to break wrist or at least get him under control. From there, I'd strike ribs, throat, knees, soften him up, and then throw him to the ground by his throat. Then I'd proceed with 7 and 8.

--Aric

aricbcool
08-30-2005, 17:25
or kick him in the back of the head
m1

I was just going to say the same thing.

I would, spit in his face, kick him in the head, roll him off and then run like hell, er... stomp him until he stops moving. :D

aricbcool
08-30-2005, 17:35
Back up on their approach. The map trick is an old one, I aint fallin' for it.

Ok, so I'm dumb this time and say "Hey fellas, what can I do you for? Hey wait! Erf, oof, ouch, ...crap."

In this scenario I would have to assume that they're going to take me down. So, my focus would be to maneuver the upper body guy's head into hitting the ground before I do. If I can manage to get an arm around his neck/head that would be best. If not, attack his face or throat as best I could before landing. After that, wiggle and squirm trying to get at joints and fingers and soft spots like kidneys, eyes, groins and hair.

The upper guy would be the priority, though I'd try to kick the lower guy off me if I could.

--Aric

Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 17:51
Kyo,

Do you want them here or in new threads?

Yeah, let's keep them in the same thread. I'll merge the one you started here. Good job guys.

Michelle
08-30-2005, 19:14
I was just going to say the same thing.

I would, spit in his face, kick him in the head, roll him off and then run like hell, er... stomp him until he stops moving. :D

As an addendum, I think if you swung your left leg with enough momentum, you could hook it around his head (think calf to his throat) and crank him backward. Was going to try that next but was getting paged for a conference call. :(

The weakest link though is the fact in that scenario, he is basically a "tripod" since his left hand has your throat... take out the weakest "leg", which in this case would be that right bracing arm (by shifting your captured arm if possible), and you've got a good chance of rolling out. Again, I couldn't "buck" my way out. I was outweighed by too much of a factor. Otherwise use knees/legs.

I don't know if running would work without adding some additional damage before the sprint. The average man can outrun a female pretty quickly. The boot party idea might be better before you head out on your nikes.

Kyo, are you going to put your solutions up here to help us out? Would be nice to know if we are heading in the right direction on these.

m1

Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 20:14
Kyo, are you going to put your solutions up here to help us out? Would be nice to know if we are heading in the right direction on these.
As long as the technique works for you, that's all that matters. This isn't a test but more of a "how many ways can you skin the cat" type exercise. But the KISS principle should be in effect here.

Scenario 1 - Curl into a ball, expand body and head butt the face and if possible, feet to the knees. Then walk away.

Scenario 2 is a little more difficult since most likely you will end up on the ground. I would deal with the BG that isn't holding the map first. Lock legs around torso, gouge eyes. That would most likely cause other BG to grab from rear, repeated back elbows to the head to break contact and get to my feet. Then we decide who really wants to have a go.

Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 20:14
Next!

aricbcool
08-30-2005, 20:31
As an addendum, I think if you swung your left leg with enough momentum, you could hook it around his head (think calf to his throat) and crank him backward. Was going to try that next but was getting paged for a conference call. :(

The weakest link though is the fact in that scenario, he is basically a "tripod" since his left hand has your throat... take out the weakest "leg", which in this case would be that right bracing arm (by shifting your captured arm if possible), and you've got a good chance of rolling out. Again, I couldn't "buck" my way out. I was outweighed by too much of a factor. Otherwise use knees/legs.

I don't know if running would work without adding some additional damage before the sprint. The average man can outrun a female pretty quickly. The boot party idea might be better before you head out on your nikes.

Kyo, are you going to put your solutions up here to help us out? Would be nice to know if we are heading in the right direction on these.

m1

Hooking the leg is a great idea! You might be able to finagle an arm bar out of it.

You're right, it would be best to add some additional damage before running. Just in case.

:)
--Aric

Kyobanim
08-30-2005, 20:51
You're right, it would be best to add some additional damage before running. Just in case. Damage is good. More the better.

Next!

aricbcool
08-30-2005, 21:07
Alright, I think this would be Scenario 4?

The BG twists your right arm up behind your back (classic bully style) while taking his left arm and securing a choke hold from behind, leaning back to get you off balance. Mutters something like "I want that milk money..."

Go...

frostfire
08-30-2005, 21:53
cry and scream like a baby and see how it "affects" him at all (probe his intention/mindset)
Tell him to release right hand since you need to grab your wallet in the right pocket to get his milk money

any variations of outcome from the above actions, you can
- Get away and get the teacher/head-master to scold him
- Get away and tell him you will sue him for aggravated assault
- etc.

or ruthlessly:
- instantly lower chin or look to the right to reduce lethality of the choke
- left hand free? Squeeze and pull out in a jerky motion any protruding part at the groin area
- bend & twist body to the right and lift right knee to shift CG to the right and lessen pain from the twisted right arm, stomp knee or shin area...
- etc.

Tubbs
08-30-2005, 23:57
1. Tuck your chin into the crook of his arm while simultaneuosly flexing your kneck muscles. This will prevent him from affecting a decent choke hold.
2. Heel stomp the hell out of his foot. This should stun him and possibly cause him to loosen his grip or let go of you all together.
3. If the heel stomp did not cause him to let go them reach up and grab either his pinky or his thumb and twist. This will break his hold and allow you to manipulate him into a good arm bar.
4. Once you have control of his arm break it. This can be done by a hard strike to his elbow while you have his arm extended in the arm bar. If you cannot do that then at least break the digit that you have ahold of. This hurts alot and ussually takes the fight out of a person. He'll have let go of your arm by now.
5. Next gouge his eyes or strike his throat right above the clavicle. This will ensure that he cannot retaliate.
6. Asses the situation to see if he has any friends that you need to be concerend about. Deal with them accordingly. If you have to run, run. If not...
7. Finally, if he is not already on the ground put him there and ensure that he will not get back up. Heel stomp his head, lower back, or achilles tendon.
You should be safe at this point

Vomiting works pretty well too. You'd be amazed at how many people get the fight taken right out of them when you vomit on them. If it doesn't take the fight out of them it should at least stun them long enough for you to turn the fight in your favor.

Huey14
08-30-2005, 23:57
Backwards kick into the balls again.

Martin
08-31-2005, 04:04
Well, here's a question: Do anyone of you know a) How many assailants use to follow if you run? and b) For how long, short sprint or do they try to keep up for a longer time? (I don't have an answer, I'm curious)

Scenario two: If possible, I'd try to meet the incoming lower guy with a knee or kakato geri (straight heel kick) - to the head. Hopefully that might break the hold. These guys are obviously not standing on top of eachother, so I'd continue escalating and change angle or otherwise engage the one holding my upper body. Line them up and deal with them one at a time.

As Kyo points out, it's likely to be taken to the ground, and what I would do, would probably be close to what he said. Two against one on the ground... I wouldn't last long without doing something drastic.

I have noticed, though, that I don't usually do what I think I will when fighting. I might have a general plan or direction I want to take the fight, but specific strikes... no, maybe as an opening. I also fight worse when thinking too much about what I do. A friend said that is not a matter of concentration, but focus.

Just my .02

Martin

Martin
08-31-2005, 04:17
Scenario 1 - Curl into a ball, expand body and head butt the face and if possible, feet to the knees. Then walk away.
Sir, I'm not trying to argue your solution, but as a general point for all to keep in mind, it would be wise to keep an eye on your assailant as you walk away, too.

When I was in a fight a few years ago, kept it very short, he received a few bruises, and when I walked away, he put a choke on me from behind. Ergo, had to beat him again.

Martin

Kyobanim
08-31-2005, 08:34
Sir, I'm not trying to argue your solution, but as a general point for all to keep in mind, it would be wise to keep an eye on your assailant as you walk away, too.
Hence the strike to the knees. They don't do very well bending backwards. :D But yes, you are correct. Never assume that someone is going to stay down.

Tubbs
08-31-2005, 14:32
Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Kyobanim
08-31-2005, 16:22
Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.
By Hook you under the armpits do you mean grab your pits with a hand or in the crook of their elbow? It makes a difference.

Huey, I see a trend. Were you kicked in the balls as a child?

:D

alphamale
08-31-2005, 20:54
Interesting thread.

Thanks for starting it Kyo.

FrontSight

Michelle
08-31-2005, 21:09
Alright, I think this would be Scenario 4?

The BG twists your right arm up behind your back (classic bully style) while taking his left arm and securing a choke hold from behind, leaning back to get you off balance. Mutters something like "I want that milk money..."

Go...

First of all... if someone ever said anything to me about "milk money" the braying laughter from me that would ensue *might* throw him off.....

Pivot, left elbow. Deep and hard. (whilst still laughing mind you).... Elbow strike will cause him to pitch forward. Head-butt backward .... foot stomp... pivot, groin....break the knee outbackward if possible (Kyo, do we STILL have to be unarmed through these scenarios?) Just wondering....

m1

Kyobanim
08-31-2005, 22:25
(Kyo, do we STILL have to be unarmed through these scenarios?) Just wondering....
Yes. If we give you guys guns and knives it's no fun.

BTW, I like your tactic. Why wouldn't you go for the knee while pivoting? Just curious.


I just had a thought. Everyone, if you see a problem with what someone is posting, question it. Everything doesn't work for everybody. We're all different shapes and sizes.

Smokin Joe
09-01-2005, 02:07
Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Bite an ear off, to get a hand free, other dude gets two fingers in 1 eye socket all the way to my second knuckle. Now that both hands are free I will assess to see who needs a little more love and go from there.

....btw, I'm not much of a runner. YMMV

Trip_Wire (RIP)
09-01-2005, 02:29
Bite an ear off, to get a hand free, other dude gets two fingers in 1 eye socket all the way to my second knuckle. Now that both hands are free I will assess to see who needs a little more love and go from there.

....btw, I'm not much of a runner. YMMV


Damn! As an FOG I might have a problem with the biting, my luck, my upper or lower dentures or maybe both would come out when they jerked back in pain. I'd be out a couple of thousand dollars in dentures. That might be more then I'd loose if they robbed me of other things I might have. I usually don't carry that much cash.
:D


Now that foot stomp (with my size 14s and the elbows and fingers that all sounds great! ;)

Kyobanim
09-01-2005, 14:55
Damn! As an FOG I might have a problem with the biting, my luck, my upper or lower dentures or maybe both would come out when they jerked back in pain. I'd be out a couple of thousand dollars in dentures. That might be more then I'd loose if they robbed me of other things I might have. I usually don't carry that much cash.
Good thing I was only drinking water when I read that!

Michelle
09-01-2005, 23:00
Yes. If we give you guys guns and knives it's no fun.

I'm sorry... I should have clarified. I didn't mean "common" weapons.. I meant "objects at one's disposal"... ie. Purse, or flashlight (torch to Maisy) with a sharpened bevel....

BTW, I like your tactic. Why wouldn't you go for the knee while pivoting? Just curious.

Becuase I am not confident enough in my proficiency to "find it/feel it" necessarily without "seeing it". I will try as a last resort to go there, but still rely a lot on sight rather than spatially "knowing". Still working on it...... forever... never "done"......

m1

Seth
09-02-2005, 10:32
Self-defense discussions often evolve around techniques and tools (weapons). To my mind the critical missing element is tactical context.

Take for instance the context of criminal assault against a citizen:

Context of criminals:

1. Criminals don't look for sporting fights, they look for easy prey. Thus, they will use methods that provide advantage to their criminal goals.

They use weapons. They use deception and ruses for surprise attack. They attack at close range. Multiple attackers.

Context of defenders:

Physical ability or disability. Special Forces Trooper as compared to 105 pound female. How about 25 year old male as compared to 75 year-old male; Do the same self-defense techniques hold context? Place this context against the parameters of the criminal's victim selection, and metric of the problem emerges.

Disparity ( and justification) of force within legal context:

Special Forces Trooper using contact weapon against single unarmed Criminal, will have difficulty articulating justification of force.

105 pound female using blade against unarmed large male attacker, will stand both a better chance of surviving the fight, as well as articulating justified self-defense in legal context.

Justification of Preemptive force: A tenet of all combat -- First Strike. Good to have especially in criminal self-defense, but how to effect?. Contextual pre-engagement tactics are critical in understanding justified preemptive force.

And, of course the macro context of soldier on a battlefield vs, citizen self-defense, can totally re-frame tactic and technique.


Kyo,

I know you framed your topic for discussion of technique, and I do not fault that. But, underscoring tactical context helps in properly framing technique and training for individuals, within the context of their most likely combats.

Many so called "Reality Based" Self defense courses pay lip-service to "Reality", but they don't train in such areas as pre-engagement tactics and unknown contact management. I'm not knocking good technique -- just trying bring awareness to tactical context in self defense.

-Seth

hemi5p
09-04-2005, 22:56
seth thats some good information, i always ask myself "what would i do if blah blah got in my face, what would i do if he pulled a knife!?" its something I do when I'm bored

since the knife situation would most likely occur in a classroom setting, I always end of having myself pick up a chair (4 legged student chair) and try to tie up the arm with the knife then move in and lock his knife arm, and if possible break his fingers

the following situation happened to me, I don't know that anyone will care but I guess it's some real life experience, kind of...

You're in a town on a lake standing outside of a deli with 2 other people, your brother carl who's 5'11", scrawny, studious, and can't fight worth a lick and your east-side beat'm up friend (BJ), waiting for your grandpa to come pick you up and take you home, you yourself are 16 3/4 years old, 5'8", 145lbs, strong, you lift everyday, you do crunches everyday, youre confident and know when you get mad you can make people hurt, BJ is equally as tough as you are, Carl is worthless in a fight because he wont fight

a car drives by full of punk locals, with a chick in the backseat, and they wave, no big deal

the car comes around again and they wave again, this time mocking us and making faces, your east-side buddy flips them off

the car comes back around into the parking lot 30ft from you, parks, and 4 boys and a chick get out and walk over

the build of the 4 boys is as follows:

1 is 5'10", fat, he was the driver, looks 17
1 is 5'8", skinny, you can tell he won't/can't fight (most likely), looks 16 oldest
1 is 5'9", a more mature looking face, you can tell hes at least 17
1 is 5'7", skinny, small, and looks like no threat at all
the girl is some brunette skanky looking type with makeup on, most likely not a threat

they walk up and the fat one says "you guys gotta problem?" striding quickly like hes hot-shit

the others follow

your east-side friend says "only if you do", they get within 10ft and stop, the mature looking kid steps forward and says, "well ill fight, shit, lets get this over with" *steps forward and takes off shirt, spins around, he has 2 tattoos on his back, they dont look like prison tattoos*", the kid doesn't have any noticeable muscle mass, hardly noticeable abs, his triceps dont show, his back is flat and his shoulders lack that muscly look, maybe he was a wrestler last year... or something? hes lost his muscle if he was

what do you do?

what ended up happening to us was when he took his shirt off and spun around, i took that as a sign of weakness because he did it solely to show off his tattoos, to try and intimidate us, i laughed at him and his friends said "that aint no joke!", i laughed again and then the little runt kid took off shirt and was like "wanna brawl!" which was hilarious, my east-side friend (BJ) and I started laughing our asses off, and his own friends laughed at him, carl (my skinny bro) was still looking like he was about to cry, then they turned around and left

it was also apparent to me that the mature looking kid (and the rest of them for that matter) were putting on a show for their little skank, so I decided i wouldn't strike preemptively or ask BJ how we would fight them or do anything that might provoke further response from them, I (and BJ too really) decided to let them put on their tough-guy show then leave

so thats the story of Phil's almost-a-fight, if I had to weigh the odds, I think BJ and I would've been facing the Fat kid and the mature looking kid, i dont think the other 2 boys wouldve fought, also, if I started to get wailed on, I think carl would jump in and flap his arms around, so I think we would've won, but you never know...

hope someone learned something from it, if I did anything stupid tell me please, the reason we didnt run was because our grandpa was late and was supposed to be there any minute (not that we wouldve ran unless they pulled a weapon on us)

oh yeah and tripwire, I think you should invent in some Fixodent-CQB, just in case :)

Maisy
09-04-2005, 23:22
the girl is some brunette skanky looking type with makeup on, most likely not a threat

Don't ever disregard the woman.

My OH got into a similar situation, about the same age, same BS posturing.

The only punch thrown was from the girl. She simply walked up to him and hit him. He's a big guy, and was back then too. He says he was so stunned (not expecting it), he simply stood there, looking at her blankly. She was expecting to put him on the ground, and when he didn't, she took off, and the rest of the guys basically followed.

Had he been a bit smaller and she put him down, things could have gotten a lot uglier fast.

The times they are a changin'. Don't automatically assume that just because a woman is smaller/looks weaker, that she is not the most aggressive one in the bunch.

Tubbs
09-06-2005, 21:12
By Hook you under the armpits do you mean grab your pits with a hand or in the crook of their elbow? It makes a difference.


:D

Sorry, about that and sorry it took me a while to respond.
Grabbed the armpit with their hands.

Michelle
09-06-2005, 21:51
Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Tubbs, I mean NO disrespect here, but am trying to get this into context....

First of all, I have to ask (and I am NOT being a SA, I swear)... why? Why would this happen to someone?

Are you involved with the cartel? (and when I say "you" here, I mean that generically). Maybe a friend of someone in the Russian mafia? This scenario has certain "things" attatched to it 95% of the time. Who are your enemies? And how have you made them? And if you have made them, you ought be aware.....That being said:

To clarify: the whole 2 on 1 scenario scares the bejeesus out of me... it's a hard one to conquer.... I don't have much training in that regard.... and honestly, it is bothersome to me. But at the same time.....

Issue #1: Why are you on a street after dark being inattentive enough to be looking at your cell phone for a number? You might as well be wearing headpones and an iPod with a tattoo on your forehead saying "pick ME!"

Issue #2: "Suddenly" two men run up on either side of you. Again. SA has failed at this point. Why oh why are you in this position to begin with?

Resolution: No idea. Leave the com open on that cell phone for starters... at least they can bloody well hear what is going on and start a tower trace...

#3 : You have legs. Use them. A left leg for the dude on the left, a right leg for the dude on the right. Knees are inherently weak. Take them if you can. I don't care how old they are or what color they are... their knees are made of the same stuff. And for god's sake remember to breath.

But again it all boils down to, why were you there in the first place. That was the biggest mistake #1. I wish I could emphasize NOT being in a position to begin with. If I could write a book on what to do to keep yourself safe, it would not be impressive. It would not have any significant techniques or moves or silver bullets. It would be so ho-hum. So it would never sell. Because it would be all about stopping it... avoiding the game before it ever starts.

Sorry if that's a groove kill. I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to impart practical ... rather than sensational.

Tubbs, it's a great drill... and a hard one to handle. I would just like to see people avoiding it before it ever went down.

But if it DID go down, what is the answer on this one? Tubbs? Kyo?


m1

Smokin Joe
09-07-2005, 00:35
Michelle,

That is such a great point. My Professor (aka Sensi) used to say, "The best black belt in the fight is the one who isn't in the fight."

Michelle
09-07-2005, 20:25
Michelle,

That is such a great point. My Professor (aka Sensi) used to say, "The best black belt in the fight is the one who isn't in the fight."

You know, Razor jokes about it and calls it the "best self-defense art there is"... the art of "avoidance-fu". I have studied hard in that art over the years. :)

That being said, this post has actually haunted me for the last 24 hours (thank you Tubbs! Making me think here!)... because I reached back into my years training at the Dojo/Kwoon and realized.... there was something very lacking in my training. We didn't address the "multiple-attacker" issue... really ever. I mean, in passing it was like "well, you double up on your moves for whatever is incomming", but that, at the end of the day is pathetic. Because there is a lot more involved here. You will be dealing with issues of timing... and multi-tasking.... and distraction. And we *never* did any real time drills with multiple attackers.... and that's not good. Although the above scenario given by Tubbs reminds me of the kinds of things a friend of mine who is a body guard in Guatemala deals with... that is KIDNAPPING scenarios, who's to say we wont someday face a 2 on 1 scenario... or even more? I have a cop friend that is helping me cull statistics right now on multiple attackers on female instances, but even if the stat is 1%, shouldn't we have a bow in our quiver for that 1%? And yet, with all the time I've put in, realistically, I dont. And that's not good.

I hope no one here was offended by my questions above. Team Sergeant tells me all the time "If you aren't asking questions, you aren't learning. You are simply retaining data." So sometimes I am a goof and I ask.

Bottom line here, is although I find the above scenario to be outside of what I or Maisy or the average female might have to deal with, the fact I am coming up empty with answers on how to deal with it tells me there is a big hole in my training.

This thread is invaluable. I hope people will keep contributing to it. It's making me think. And it's making me see things I haven't seen before. It's pointing out glaring deficits in my training.... and hopefully giving wonderful advice to others that are just starting their training. So Kyo, thank you VERY much for getting this ball rolling.

Maisy... in that SD class you just attended.... did they address any "multiple attacker" scenarios at all? Or was it all just 1 on 1.

And as a final note, the multiple attacker scenario is a main reason why I am not comfortable being "empty handed" at the end of the day. I can only aspire to someday being able to "getting the job done" with nothing at my disposal. But for now? No, not yet... not me.

m1

Maisy
09-07-2005, 20:46
in that SD class you just attended.... did they address any "multiple attacker" scenarios at all?

Nope, no multiple attacker scenario's. Which, when i think about it, is a glaring hole.

Just in Sydney alone, every day a woman is faced with a multiple attacker situation. They are usually a group of young hoons, wandering the sidewalks and train stations, looking to harass women alone.

Most of these situations turn out ok for the woman, they are let go after being verbally abused or jostled, maybe groped a bit. Most people, seeing it happen, step around the group and continue on their way with their heads down. They are mostly never reported, and if they are, with police resources stretched to the limit, and no harm done other than a scare, are generally ignored or at the most "moved on".

Every once in a while, the attack turns serious.

When I think about the types of situations I have observed and encountered, in general I have found that it is most likely I would be attacked by someone I know and to some extent trust, less likely to be harassed and/or assaulted by a bored group of teen boys feeling like picking on lone women, and finally, least likely to be attacked by a single, unknown person.

I will state for the record that the SD seminar I attended was mainly concerned with teaching us how to escape from an attacker, and all movements taught ended with the command "and run!". The seminar also didn't cover knife attacks, attack where the bad guy grabs you by the upper arm, etc. There is only so much you can cover in 1 1/2 hrs. That's why I am starting the course this week. :cool:

Tonight will be my first night. :lifter

Kyobanim
09-07-2005, 21:05
When addressing multiple attackers you have to remember, you can only do one thing at a time. If you try to deal with both BGs you will loose, badly. Pick one threat and deal with it, whether it's a complete takedown or just makking the guy back off. Then have at the other one. The idea is to break contact if you're in close and gain some space.

Never backup, always move side to side keeping both BGs in your front visual range. You don't know what's behind you, you might trip. Use your peripheral vision when moving.
Never turn your back to either one if you can help it.
Don't become decisively engaged with one unless you are confident of your situation and what you are going to do.
Use this time to plan your escape. If you hurt one of them bad enough the other just might balk and give you the time you need to get to safety.

A real important thing that people don't realize: CONTROL YOUR BREATHING! Sounds stupid, but in through the nose, out through the mouth. You'd be suprised how much this will calm you and allow you to use the best weapon you have, your brain.

Michelle, this thread was started to make people think, evaluate and share what you know. I'm sorry your instructors didn't address the multiple attacker scenario. It is something that most people don't address.

In this particular scenario it's good to know pressure points. There's a nice one under the arm about a third of the way down below the arm pit. Grab a handfull of that and you get loose. It also has a lingering pain if done hard enough, kinda reduces the usability of that arm.

A kick to the side of the knee will get you free enough to use it on one of them. Once free, a good old knife hand strike to the side or back of the neck will put one of them down for the count. (side of the neck has the capability of knocking a person out, back of the neck will break something)

aricbcool
09-07-2005, 21:54
Once free, a good old knife hand strike to the side or back of the neck will put one of them down for the count. (side of the neck has the capability of knocking a person out, back of the neck will break something)

Fascinating. And I thought that only happened in the movies. :)

Smokin Joe
09-07-2005, 22:23
I have a very good friend who has his own M.A. school in Southern California. He is a very talented black belt with a very good school.

Several years ago he was faced by 3 attackers. He turn and ran. About 100 or 200 yards away he hid in wait. First dude came around the corner and got knocked out. 2-3 seconds later second guy meet the same fate. A few more seconds the last guy (the original instigator) came wadeling around the corner saw his two friends K.O.'d and ran away.

The tactic was to draw out the attackers and deal with them one on one instead of dealing with the group.

When training on multiple attackers I like to stack the attackers. Stacking is getting them to trip over each other, run into each other, or get one in front of the other so you can hit the first guy into the second.

Dealing with 3 or more. Get the hell out of the middle, don't get swarmed, do everything you can to break contact, and run like hell.

Pete
09-08-2005, 16:14
When addressing multiple attackers you have to remember, you can only do one thing at a time. If you try to deal with both BGs you will loose, badly.

Remind the ladies that somebody is always the leader. It may not be the one who comes at you first but if you nail the leader first the other may back off.

Just my opinion but with two coming at you look at the faces and the eyes. The one who keeps checking the others location is not as sure about things as the one smiling at you and looking you dead in the eye.

Pete
09-08-2005, 16:16
Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Little on the small side to go around grabbin' people? :D

aricbcool
09-08-2005, 17:38
Ok, I have a scenario.
You are in a major city and are stopped on the street after dark. You are looking through your cell phone for a number. Suddenly two men run up on either side of you and they both grab you by your wrists and hook you under your armpits, forcing you into a double arm bar before you can react. They immediately begin to drag you down an adjacent alley. Both men are approximatley 6' tall, 200-220lbs, mid twenties and white.

Ok, I concur with everyone out there as far as kicks to the knees and shins and (if you're flexible enough) maybe even the back of the head.

I'd like to put forward the idea that if this doesn't work... spit.

The idea here is that the attackers are obviously trying to take you somewhere either more secluded (to avoid witnesses) or worse, to Oleg, the local Russian Mafia guy you owe all that money to.

So, being unable to get out of the hold through pain, I say spit in their faces and hair in an attempt to piss them off enough to stop and attempt to beat you up.

This would get you out of the hold and possibly give you a fighting/running chance.

Thoughts?

--Aric

Kyobanim
09-08-2005, 18:30
Ok, I concur with everyone out there as far as kicks to the knees and shins and (if you're flexible enough) maybe even the back of the head.

I'd like to put forward the idea that if this doesn't work... spit.

The idea here is that the attackers are obviously trying to take you somewhere either more secluded (to avoid witnesses) or worse, to Oleg, the local Russian Mafia guy you owe all that money to.

So, being unable to get out of the hold through pain, I say spit in their faces and hair in an attempt to piss them off enough to stop and attempt to beat you up.

This would get you out of the hold and possibly give you a fighting/running chance.

Thoughts?

--Aric
Anything that works is right. I can see where this would work, at least most of the time.

Tubbs
09-08-2005, 18:47
Tubbs, I mean NO disrespect here, but am trying to get this into context....

First of all, I have to ask (and I am NOT being a SA, I swear)... why? Why would this happen to someone?



To adress your qustions,

1. I chose a major city because I am from Boston and when one lives in a major city one frequently finds oneself out after dark.

2. Looking at a cell phone because a lot of people that have cell phones use them religiously and I have seen my civilian friends use them and their SA dissapears almost immediately upon pulling one out (I personally refuse to own a cell phone. I hate them).

3. We are in a thread of self-defense scenarios and in the spirit of creativity I thought that I'd try something interesting. This was a scenario that my sensei liked to use alot and I just jazzed it up for the posting.

4. I did live across from an "auto body shop" that was operated by Russians.

I hope that answers your questions Michelle. I agree that you should not put yourslef in situation where this might happen, but most of the scenarios in this thread could be avoided by not putting yourself in a bad situation.

Razor
09-08-2005, 18:55
You know, Razor jokes about it and calls it the "best self-defense art there is"... the art of "avoidance-fu". I have studied hard in that art over the years.

Just to set the record straight, the term was 'avoid-fu', and the first time I saw it was in a post by PS.com's own Guy Jones on another forum. Credit where credit is due.

Michelle
09-08-2005, 20:47
Just to set the record straight, the term was 'avoid-fu', and the first time I saw it was in a post by PS.com's own Guy Jones on another forum. Credit where credit is due.

I apologize for the misquote. Thank you for setting the record straight.


m1

Michelle
09-08-2005, 20:58
To adress your qustions,

1. I chose a major city because I am from Boston and when one lives in a major city one frequently finds oneself out after dark.

Thank you! Understood.... I come from a city where we do not "walk" about at night for the most part... I think that is where I was having a disconnect... It's a geographical situation... one I realize is not prevelant with most major cities.. sorry! :o

2. Looking at a cell phone because a lot of people that have cell phones use them religiously and I have seen my civilian friends use them and their SA dissapears almost immediately upon pulling one out (I personally refuse to own a cell phone. I hate them).

Cell phones... they can be your best friend or your worst enemy. Can you use it without sacraficing your focus to it?...that is a major trick.... really.

3. We are in a thread of self-defense scenarios and in the spirit of creativity I thought that I'd try something interesting. This was a scenario that my sensei liked to use alot and I just jazzed it up for the posting.

You are right. I was out of line. I apologize.

4. I did live across from an "auto body shop" that was operated by Russians.

I hope that answers your questions Michelle. I agree that you should not put yourslef in situation where this might happen, but most of the scenarios in this thread could be avoided by not putting yourself in a bad situation.

You are of course, correct. Again, I am sorry if I took this "off track" I just am very invested it the "stop it before it starts" mind-set for women.

With respect!

m1

Tubbs
09-09-2005, 19:59
Michelle,

Thank you, but there is no need to apologize. Those were honest questions. I understand where a lot of them came from too. I now live in a rural "God fearing" area and people here think that I am crazy because I look inside my car before I get in it and I check my house to make sure it is still locked when I come home.

Different people from different areas deal with different threats.
No harm, no foul.

Michelle
09-09-2005, 20:17
Michelle,

Thank you, but there is no need to apologize. Those were honest questions. I understand where a lot of them came from too. I now live in a rural "God fearing" area and people here think that I am crazy because I look inside my car before I get in it and I check my house to make sure it is still locked when I come home.

Different people from different areas deal with different threats.
No harm, no foul.

Thank you for being so gracious about my being obtuse. I would also like to put a quick thought out there for you... it is not just a matter of "different areas"... it's gender relational too. Bottom line is, you, as a man, have had a very different world at your feet. That is, men don't often have to "worry" about walking around alone, or at night. There are very specific "circumstances" that put you at risk, but overall, you guys have a brilliant freedom to come and go as you please. The incidence of assault, rape, etc., is very low for the XYs.... accordingly, you think and move about differently than the average XX. When was the last time you walked to your car, alone, at night, and even thought in passing you would/could be victimized. Now lets turn that table. Imagine if you had to worry about it almost every day. It's insidious for us, and perhaps lends itself to a certain paranoia.

Maybe we need another thread (so I don't inadvertantly stomp all over the integrity of this one! lol. ;)

Maybe an avoid-fu thread would be good. The proactive approach... tips of avoidance. It's important, but doesn't belong here... because this thread is all about once the SHTF.... and you were spot on with your scenario... and I went out into left field.

Thank you again for a VERY thought provoking post, and for being a good sport about MY bad manners. :)

m1

Tubbs
09-09-2005, 23:12
There are very specific "circumstances" that put you at risk, but overall, you guys have a brilliant freedom to come and go as you please. The incidence of assault, rape, etc., is very low for the XYs.... accordingly, you think and move about differently than the average XX. When was the last time you walked to your car, alone, at night, and even thought in passing you would/could be victimized. Now lets turn that table. Imagine if you had to worry about it almost every day. It's insidious for us, and perhaps lends itself to a certain paranoia.



I understand and respect where you are coming from. It is statistically eaiser to victimize women than men, but I don't think that its always a gender issue. I know what its like to live in a bad neighborhood were this sort of thing happens to anybody. Not because you are bad people, but just because your family can't afford to live anywhere nicer (pastors don't make a whole lot of money). So I do understad what it is like to look over your shoulder all day long. Avoid-fu doesn't always work. Sometimes s*** just happens and you need to be prepared.
In the meantime, keep your head down...

kgoerz
09-12-2005, 19:47
Go into the windmill
It's Pre Primer Ignition Movement..........AKA Jerking the Trigger

Michelle
09-12-2005, 20:24
There is only so much you can cover in 1 1/2 hrs. That's why I am starting the course this week. :cool:

Tonight will be my first night. :lifter

So? How's it going? Share! :)

m1

Michelle
09-12-2005, 20:32
Go into the windmill

Can you expand on that please? I *think* I know what you mean, but I would hate to assume.

m1

Kyobanim
09-12-2005, 20:47
In the meantime, keep your head down... It would be better if you kept your head up. SA, you know.

Maisy
09-12-2005, 21:35
So? How's it going? Share!

It went really well! There were only 3 women who showed up, so we really got some 1-on-1 time with our instructor. We went back over what we had covered in the seminar, then practiced how to get out of someone grabbing your shoulder from behind and how to hit someone who is behind you.

The thing I found most interesting was how few women showed up. We talked about it in the class, and general concensus was that the area where we live is low-crime, mums-and-dads suburbs and women feel too safe to think about SD. :rolleyes:

Anyway, hopefully there will be a few more this week.

I am really loving it though. I get really pumped doing it, and come home bouncing off the ceiling.

I think what amazed me the most is that I am really enjoying the punching, kneeing, kicking, palm strike etc

I am sooo far from a gung-ho type femme it is not funny, and this really was the last thing I thought I would actually enjoy.

I really went into it because I knew I should have some basic SD skills, but I was really focussed on going in, learning all that I could, and walking away with knowledge and confidence. I kind of looked at it like a uni subject, not necessarily enjoyable, but something you have to know.

Instead, I am having the time of my life and I reckon even now, were I to fall into fighting stance, it would make most men at least think twice about taking me on. ;)

Ambush Master
09-12-2005, 21:53
Instead, I am having the time of my life and I reckon even now, were I to fall into fighting stance, it would make most men at least think twice about taking me on. ;)

Stateside, self defence can be a "double-edged-sword !! In Texas, if someone "assumes" the stance of someone that is "trained in the martial arts", Deadly Force is authorized !!! The concept behind the law, is that a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun could be overpowered and have that weapon used against them or others. Therefore, deadly force is authorized.

I can only pray and hope, that SD Instructors are aware of these types of provisions in the laws !!!!

Later
Martin

Maisy
09-12-2005, 22:05
So far in Australia no woman has ever been arrested for using self defence moves to defend herself against an attacker.

However, if, once the attacker is subdued and no longer a threat, she then proceeds to sink the boot in, that's a different story.

Also, as far as I am aware there are no laws authorising deadly force against an unarmed person, regardless of situation.

Actually, so far my "fighting stance" means simply placing my feet, bending my knees a bit and putting my fists up, LOL.

Not exactly a killer martial arts stance, but one which does look a bit more prepared than simply standing there, hands dangling by my sides, feet not planted, waiting for the bad guy to act.

Tubbs
09-13-2005, 22:57
It would be better if you kept your head up. SA, you know.

I like to keep my head down and my eyes up. I'm just a humble 03 and not skilled in the ways of the jedi.
You see, I'm not the fine scalpel that you put in the hands of a master surgeon to preform an intricate operation. I'm the baseball bat you put in the hands of a skilled goon when you need to make an example. ;)

Razor
09-14-2005, 10:05
I like to keep my head down and my eyes up.

If you also keep your head up and on a swivel and present a confident, aware presence, thugs notice this in their target analysis and it may (no guarantees, of course) keep them from attacking you, as you're a 'harder' target than the person shuffling along, head down or staring straight ahead, only aware of what's right in front of them.

Tubbs
09-14-2005, 13:37
I think that I've been miss understood. I meant keep your head down in the figurative sense, i.e. "keep out of trouble", "don't skyline yourself" etc...

Martin
09-23-2005, 13:16
Scenario:
You and your pregnant wife, or pregnant husband if you are a woman, have stopped for gas at a gas station in an urban setting. Your wife stays in the passenger seat while you hook up the feed line (gas handle) to your automobile.
Having done that, a car of rap playing junkies roll up behind your car, stopping. They then slightly bump into your car using theirs, repeatedly.

If you walk over and tell them to stop and that you have a pregnant wife in there, they continue and give you the finger.

Otherwise, or if you undo the previous step I wrote, what would you do?

Martin

The Reaper
09-23-2005, 13:25
Scenario:
You and your pregnant wife, or pregnant husband if you are a woman, have stopped for gas at a gas station in an urban setting. Your wife stays in the passenger seat while you hook up the feed line (gas handle) to your automobile.
Having done that, a car of rap playing junkies roll up behind your car, stopping. They then slightly bump into your car using theirs, repeatedly.

If you walk over and tell them to stop and that you have a pregnant wife in there, they continue and give you the finger.

Otherwise, or if you undo the previous step I wrote, what would you do?

Martin

Remove the nozzle from my tank, and start filling up their car.

Time to flick my BIC?

TR

jatx
09-23-2005, 14:14
You should leave her behind the wheel with the motor running. Passenger seat with the motor off puts her in a situation where she has too few options. If someone tries to block you from the front (more likely scenario for a carjacking), she should throw it in reverse and tear ass out of there. Yes, I'm saying she should leave you behind. After all, you're a big boy and you're armed, right?

I like TR's idea if they pull in from behind.

BTW, this is not unheard of. A friend of mine was carjacked in Dallas while coming home from the hospital with her newborn four years ago. She had stopped for gas and the kiddo was strapped into a child seat in the back. She begged for her child while being held at gunpoint, and they eventually gave her the kid before taking off. That was her wakeup call and she now packs everywhere she goes.

Martin
09-23-2005, 14:23
I like how you think, Sir. (and btw, you appear to have been right about education choice too)

jatx: This is actually a real thing. It was told on SOCNET by, I think, a Ranger, four years ago. The person in question resolved it by pulling off/breaking the driver's finger.
He did time for it.

[EDITED:] Good point about driver's seat. Although tepeatedly switching seats might cause friction, maybe reducing probability it is actually done.

Martin

jatx
09-23-2005, 14:29
By the way, there's no rule saying that you have to stand next to the car while it's being filled. Sit in the passenger seat and you won't have to worry about being left behind. At the very least, make sure that the hose isn't between you and the car door.

Oh, and don't take your pregnant wife out in a car that's low on gas! ;)

aricbcool
09-23-2005, 18:11
Scenario:
You and your pregnant wife, or pregnant husband if you are a woman, have stopped for gas at a gas station in an urban setting. Your wife stays in the passenger seat while you hook up the feed line (gas handle) to your automobile.
Having done that, a car of rap playing junkies roll up behind your car, stopping. They then slightly bump into your car using theirs, repeatedly.

If you walk over and tell them to stop and that you have a pregnant wife in there, they continue and give you the finger.

Otherwise, or if you undo the previous step I wrote, what would you do?

Martin

Whip out the cell phone and call the cops. Or, drive away. In my town, there's not much else you can do without being arrested for assault.

The Reaper
09-23-2005, 19:28
By the way, there's no rule saying that you have to stand next to the car while it's being filled. Sit in the passenger seat and you won't have to worry about being left behind. At the very least, make sure that the hose isn't between you and the car door.

Oh, and don't take your pregnant wife out in a car that's low on gas! ;)

I would not leave the pump unattended for the reason that I already implied. And I have better evasive driving skills than my wife, unless I need to be shooting instead.

If you are driving a beater and don't care, or they have damaged your car already, throw it in reverse on the way out and hit the front bumper of their late model car hard enough to set off their airbags before driving off. If you let your wife do it, she can claim the pregnancy defense.

They won't be following you in that car, regardless.

TR

jatx
09-23-2005, 19:47
And I have better evasive driving skills than my wife, unless I need to be shooting instead.
TR

Sir,

That sounds like a missed training opportunity! :D

Smokin Joe
09-24-2005, 11:18
Fill their car with O.C.

frostfire
10-21-2005, 02:03
Scenario:
You and your pregnant wife, or pregnant husband if you are a woman, have stopped for gas at a gas station in an urban setting. Your wife stays in the passenger seat while you hook up the feed line (gas handle) to your automobile.
Having done that, a car of rap playing junkies roll up behind your car, stopping. They then slightly bump into your car using theirs, repeatedly.
If you walk over and tell them to stop and that you have a pregnant wife in there, they continue and give you the finger.
Otherwise, or if you undo the previous step I wrote, what would you do?
Martin

Just to set the record straight, the term was 'avoid-fu', and the first time I saw it was in a post by PS.com's own Guy Jones on another forum. Credit where credit is due.

http://clnlb.us.publicus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051012/ATLCOVER/51012002/-1/ATL
First of all, RIP soldier...
Now, with no means to disrespect any of the involved parties, IMHO this is a good example of how avoid-fu would have kept the husband/father alive and the college boy going with a good start in life by having college degree & clean record.

I personally has exercised avoid fu in similar scenarios:
- Some dude kept honking at parking lot, trying to get my attention, and then talked smart and tried to get into my nerve. He then started honking again.
I walked away.
- Some gangsta-punks-filled car stopped by me at a red light and one of them started demanding attention. When I looked away, the name-calling began.
I drove away.

not afraid of death, I'm just not too keen of a dog's death.
Just like "law-fu" (learning and being aware of preclusion etc.) and "kung-fu," (all the skills etc. etc.) "avoid-fu is hardly easy as it involves slaying your own ego.

avoid-fu --> law-fu --> kung-fu
The set of OODA-integrated SOPs I learn to abide by at least here being a civvie in the states (esp. big cities).

cback0220
10-21-2005, 08:55
Here is another scenario, actually happened to me and a few friends.

You are at the beach surfing, or just having a good time when you get in the way of an angry 18 year old territorial surfer. He tells you so and you say, I wasn't in your way and he needs to get out of your face. He splashes you with water, a big sign of disrespect and paddles off. No big deal

20 minutes later on the shore rocks start hitting the sand near your position on the beach. There are now 8-10 surfers sitting on the cliff heckling and throwing rocks at you. Your big Hawaiian friend goes to have words, when he does so he is struck in the face by one of the smaller guys. You have come to his aide. You now have 8 or so angry 20-somethings on 3 or 4 defensives. They are advancing. What would you do.

One of the three is not good for fighting but can hold HIS own. All 8 are fighters.



This is a real problem on a daily basis in Southern California. Territorialism is rediculous. Fights happen over stupid shit that doesn't matter. It is almost always in groups as these guys are to pussy to fight on their own merit.

Kyobanim
10-21-2005, 09:17
Territorialism is rediculous

Exactly. It isn't worth the trouble. Once you start fighting you become just like them. Go surf somewhere else. I know Kalifornia has some great spots.

cback0220
10-21-2005, 13:40
We do now, but the fact is we had surfed there just as long. Bu the day we get in the way we were not locals anymore. But what would you do in the 3 on 8 scenario.

Kyobanim
10-21-2005, 18:30
You can only fight one person at a time no matter how good you are. The key is to keep moving to manuver the ones after you so that you are only facing one of them at a time. You do the best you can with quick, effective attacks on that one person. If you have the stamina, you will outlast them. If not, you will get your ass kicked.

This is something that you have train for. You can wear yourself out moving if you're not practiced at the technique. Let them come to you and redirect their attack with pushes followed up by a quick parting shot. You will be tempted to become desicively engaged with 1 opponent and that will do you in. Once you do this you lose.

You can practice this simply by having several of your friends come at you. You'll find that they will wear themselves out faster trying to move around each other to get to you than you do trying to avoid them.

Michelle
10-21-2005, 19:01
You can only fight one person at a time no matter how good you are. The key is to keep moving to manuver the ones after you so that you are only facing one of them at a time. You do the best you can with quick, effective attacks on that one person. If you have the stamina, you will outlast them. If not, you will get your ass kicked.

This is something that you have train for. You can wear yourself out moving if you're not practiced at the technique. Let them come to you and redirect their attack with pushes followed up by a quick parting shot. You will be tempted to become desicively engaged with 1 opponent and that will do you in. Once you do this you lose.

You can practice this simply by having several of your friends come at you. You'll find that they will wear themselves out faster trying to move around each other to get to you than you do trying to avoid them.

What if two of them are coming at you dead-simultaneously? Or would that not be possible if you are effectively "continuously moving?"

m1

Razor
10-21-2005, 20:32
I'm no expert, but I think their angles of attack are important in answering that question. If they're coming side-by-side, you can move to the side of one of them, effectively using them as a block against the other's attack. If they're coming from two separate angles, you can move to avoid one attack and make a dash at the other.

Kyobanim
10-21-2005, 20:38
Razor nailed it, effectively using them as a block against the other's attack. If they're coming from two separate angles, you can move to avoid one attack and make a dash at the other.

The key is, once again, training.

I believe Aikido uses the "art of redirection", which simply stated is using your opponents force against him.

Michelle
10-21-2005, 21:11
Razor nailed it,

The key is, once again, training.

I believe Aikido uses the "art of redirection", which simply stated is using your opponents force against him.

I was going to ask if you were coming from an "Aikido" philosophy on this one because that's what it seemed to me... not only the "art of redirection" but the art of using BG1 against BG2. I didn't want to assume however.

Thank you Razor and Kyo!

m1

Razor
10-21-2005, 21:39
Nope, I was coming from a "keep from getting my ass kicked" philosophy. ;)

Kyobanim
10-21-2005, 21:58
Nope, I was coming from a "keep from getting my ass kicked" philosophy. ;)
:D And that is the only one that counts!

cback0220
10-22-2005, 11:56
What ended up happening in this case was that MY big friend and I attacked. 2 of them. What I believe happened was our show of aggresion stopped the others from continuing. They were pretty shocked at the speed in which those two were on their backs.

I took the guy down by quickly hitting him in the head, followed by grabbing and kicking his leg out from under him, we then kinda tumlbled down a hill, I ended up on top, with a few more strikes to the head he was done. I told him I was done fighting and he should leave ASAP before it gets worse. He said okay so I let him go. Same sort of thing happened to my friend. The bad guys were kind of shocked and I don't think they wanted to try it anymore. Pretty much ended the situation.

We did have a major advantage in that we were situated on the top a very steep hill/cliff. I guess it could be considered luck that I ended up on top, thus being able to continue hitting him, But I don't believe in luck only skill:cool: