Malfunctions...how do you remediate???

[Endorphin Rush]

A teammate of mine just returned from an advanced combat handgun course and brought back with him a new and, possibly, more efficient remediation drill.

I've always used the standard:
Tap/Rack/Reload for an empty weapon...
Tap/Rack for a simple malfunction...
Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack for the more complex malfunctions.

I'm curious to hear how you guys do it. Anyone using anything different???

ER

[Team Sergeant]

A teammate of mine just returned from an advanced combat handgun course and brought back with him a new and, possibly, more efficient remediation drill.

I've always used the standard:
Tap/Rack/Reload for an empty weapon...
Tap/Rack for a simple malfunction...
Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack for the more complex malfunctions.

I'm curious to hear how you guys do it. Anyone using anything different???

ER

I'm not sure what you're using for a combat handgun but if I was running through all those malfunction drills I'd be selling my combat handgun...... :rolleyes:

Why does everyone "tap" first, on a handgun?????

[NousDefionsDoc]

Because failure to feed is usually caused by not properly loading the mag into the weapon in the first place. I generaly don't have that problem. ;)

"Tap, rack, reload for an empty weapon"? Hell no! Just change mags and let 'er eat!

[Endorphin Rush]

TS,

Funny you should be the one to ask which handgun, ( I know where you stand on this) I'm using a 1911.

The good news is that I've only had ONE malfunction in thousands of rounds. However, I/we do train often with dummy rounds in our mags to assure proficiency in malfuntions remediation in the event it should occur whilst the shitis hitting the fan.

I've been taught, and always practiced, tapping the mag base plate first to seat a non-seated magazine. I've been taught that in some weapons, especially those in which the magazines are not drop-free, it would be difficult to assess and otherwise time consuming to do anything but fix the problem by simply tapping to reseat.

Please fire away with anything you can offer in regards to the "tap" issue, or otherwise.

[The Reaper]

I'm with NDD, you need to define your terms, because when I run the gun dry, I draw the fresh mag, eject the empty mag, slam the fresh mag home, release the slide (your choice of technique), and continue shooting as necessary.

Why tap and rack before reloading if you are empty and locked back?

TR

[Endorphin Rush]

NDD,

I am in agreement with your assessment of the failure to feed problem. And I've not had that particular problem either. :)

I believe the drill (TAP/rack) was designed to cover all the bases and meant to correct most deficiences without the need for an on-the-spot assessment. I agree with the Team Sergeant that it should not be needed in handguns. The only explaination that was ever provided to me was that of someone unintentionally hitting the mag release on a non-drop- free weapon and unseating the mag slightly.

NDD, we train to clear all malfuctions the same, to include empty weapons, only because it is nearly impossible in total darkness to know if the weapon is simply empty or has malfuntioned. The idea is that, if the weapon is NOT empty, but has in fact malfunctioned, simply reloading and making her eat will not work (atleast in the event of a more complex malfunction). In the event that the slide is felt to be locked back upon attempting to rack, simply do a reload as Reaper describes above.

Keep it coming...

[Endorphin Rush]

Appreciate all the replies, gentlemen!!

The reason I posted this thread was that a somewhat different drill is being taught by Jeff Gonzales. I won't go into any detail outside of PM, only because I'm not sure that he would want his stuff put out there for everyone on the Net. His classes are LE/and MIL only. Don't want to step on my dick with Mr. Gonzales.

In any case, please continue with any feedback or comments.

Reaper, TS, NDD, does my explaination of using Tap/Rack for an empty weapon make any sense???

[Team Sergeant]

ER,

If one learns to properly insert a loaded mag into a weapon it would negate the need to “tap” when there’s a problem. If a person cannot properly perform this simply task then he or she should not be going into harms way.

I've never taught anyone to “tap” the mag of a loaded handgun for a malfunction drill.

When I viewed your “Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack” I must admit I was laughing. (Did you read this in some "REAL COMBAT" magazine? :rolleyes: )

Just for you, because you made me laugh, I’ll tell you what I’d do for all my malfunctions:

Handgun malfunctions; leave gun pointing out toward tgt, arm at full extension, turn gun 180 degrees so that the slide is “upside down” rack the weapon, turn gun “upright” and continue to fire. Takes about half a second when practiced.

I also agree with TR and NDD’s method, change mags!

If someone is teaching you to clear a handgun in the “upright” position all I’ll say is good luck.

K.I.S.S.

Team Sergeant

BTW, whom ever taught you this is more than welcome to come on here and discuss his merits of some of the methods you posted. I'd be more than happy to have a public chat with them.......

[HOLLiS]

Failure to feed. I have noticed in the civilian world, magazine are ignored as if they have some sort life time maintainence design from the manufacture. I have only seen military folks talking magazines apart for cleaning, inspecting and lubrication. Magazines need love and care too!

I have seen magazine stick causing a failure to feed from improper maintenance, dirt, damaged or wierd loading (ie; jamming 22 rds in a 20 rd mag). The simpliest solution is what has been suggested, drop it, and insert a new mag.

[CoLawman]

Seems like this is a very convoluted version of the LE method of TAP, RACK,BANG.
And TS is correct the TRB method is to tilt gun, rack, and start firing again. My apologies for not recalling who developed this method. TRB came about in LE when LE began issuing semi-autos.

I have also found that the TRB method also works when one is trying to employ a sucker punch to an opponent. Tap on his shoulder........draw back your fist.........and BANG :)

[HOLLiS]

A teammate of mine just returned from an advanced combat handgun course and brought back with him a new and, possibly, more efficient remediation drill.
ER

Opps, Endorphin Rush I forgot to ask about this combat course, was it civilian, LEO, or Military? First time I shot a LEO combat course, I did it the way I learned in the military..... Deffinately not the way they (LEO) wanted it done. Very different thinking.

[Spartan359]

Handgun malfunctions; leave gun pointing out toward tgt, arm at full extension, turn gun 180 degrees so that the slide is “upside down” rack the weapon, turn gun “upright” and continue to fire. Takes about half a second when practiced.



TS, why would you turn the slide upside down?

[Razor]

I believe I understand ER's 'Tap/Lock/Rip/Rack/Reload/Rack' sequence (correct me if I'm wrong, ER). That is a clearance drill taught by some instructors for double feed malfunctions. Not sure about the first 'tap' ER cited for this drill, but since the mag doesn't always drop free with a double feed, you may have to pull the mag (the 'rip') out of the well. Before you can do this, though, you need to lock the slide to the rear so its not exerting pressure on the trapped round and hence the magazine. After the fouled mag is free, you rack the slide 2 or 3 times to clear the stuck round (hopefully), then feed a fresh mag, rack the slide the get back in the fight. The most important thing about this particular drill is that its conducted after moving behind cover, not standing out in the open since it takes so damned long to do.

Spartan, as for turning the pistol upside down, think gravity and clearing rounds from the chamber.

[The Reaper]

TS, why would you turn the slide upside down?

Do things fall up in your world?

TR

[Spartan359]

Spartan, as for turning the pistol upside down, think gravity and clearing rounds from the chamber.

Roger that. I thought that's what it was for, but I figured I'd ask just in case it was for something else. Thanks Razor.

[Spartan359]

Do things fall up in your world?

TR

Negative.

[Endorphin Rush]

Ok, I had just returned from a rather lengthy run last night before posting...the endorphins must have made me high as hell. So...now in a much more lucid state let me make some sense.

First off, if the weapon is known to be empty...as NDD stated, "Just change mags and let 'er eat".

As CoLawman described, for clearing simple malfunctions (ie., stove pipe malfunctions) Tap Rack Bang is the method I'm describing. Tap Rack Ready is a slight variation taught by our firearms instructors to overcome the tendency for the masses who would believe that they have to shoot, the BANG portion of the drill, just because it's part of the drill.

And, lastly, Razor is correct in interpreting my description of the method for clearing double feed malfuntions. He is also correct in catching the fact that a TAP is not necessary. My mistake... :o

And Team Sergeant, no, not "Real Combat"...I believe it was "Airsoft Warfare". ;)
Actually, it was Gunsite.

Hollis, the Gonzalez course was for Law Enforcement.

That being said, though the bruises from this beating are fresh and painful, I'm feeling the love.


Team Sergeant, how do you suggest clearing double feed malfuntions if they were to ever occur???

[Endorphin Rush]

Let me clarify...the methods I am describing are not those taught by Gonzales. I was looking to see how everyone else was clearing their malfunctions in comparison to what I've been taught previously.

[Team Sergeant]

ER,

If/when you attend these courses and fail to ask “why” someone does something then you will be getting “more” than you paid for. As for Gunsite, I happen to know one of the instructors there and even he asks questions.

Also I've seen “defensive tactics” instructors push a technique that were absolute bullshit, when called on it they could not defend its use or tried the old “baffle’em with bullshit” approach.

Case in point, a Phoenix LEO and friend of mine just attended an explosive breaching course somewhere in Texas. This course was advertised as an LEO and military breaching school. The friend of mine called during the first day and asked me;

“Do you guys (Special Forces) use gunpowder charges to breach obstacles?” After was done laughing I told him, “Why of course! We hate using the sophisticated chemical explosives specially designed to breach doors and walls! Get a grip!”

He and his pals left the course.

If you think something is bullshit, it probably is, and should be closely examined.

Read the bios of those teaching you, ask about their credetionals. If the bio is “Twenty five year Air Force veteran” think for a second, who in the AF is engaged in “ground combat” or any ground combat training for that matter???? Become aware, become informed or be prepared to spend money on worthless training. I've even read bios that stated that the person “served with” a Special Forces unit, what it didn’t tell you was that he was a cook in the SF unit.

I personally busted a guy in Scottsdale that runs a gun club. In his online bio he stated he was former member of Naval Special Operations and he had personally trained just about EVERY Fed agency, state local and Special Operations unit in the US military. What it didn't state was the FACT that he had FAILED out of the Navel Special Operations course and left the Navy with only four months time served. The POS actually had that in his bio. He was made to remove his bio, but he’s rich beyond imagination because even with his bio now gone the locals here have yet to make the connection to his bullshit.

Before you attend Billy-Bob’s advanced fancy school of shooting, take a few minutes to read their bios, do not listen to your buddy with two years on the PD telling you “That was Great Training, Best I've ever had!”

Billy –Bob cares about one thing, taking monies from people. Does Billy –Bob care he has no formal training? Hell no, he’ll simply make it up! I find it amusing when Billy –Bob has ZERO in the way of formal training, but he’s sporting a COUNTER-TERRORIST and SPECIAL OPERATION credetionals in his profile as a shooting instructor. (There is no such thing as a "civilian" counter-terrorist school. At least none that I'm aware of, so you tell me where a civilian acquires such training to place on his profile? Funny, I just read such a bio in a shooting magazine just last month, a civilian with no military back ground with Special Operations and Counter-Terrorism in his "Instructor" bio.)

You are a LEO, do some LEO shit and find out about these people before you attend their courses!

[NousDefionsDoc]

TS is right on as always. I have a saying when training the trainer, "If you don't know why you are doing/teaching whatever, STOP until you find out."

To me, there are few things less professional than waffling when asked "Why?" by a stud.

When one of mine proposes something and I can't think of a good reason right off for not doing it, I say, "Well let's lay out the tape and run it and see what happens." If it's not a valid TTP, they usually come to that conclusion on their own.

[NousDefionsDoc]

If it's something like reloads or malfunctions, I have them run their technique against a couple of us. When they see how much slower it is or more complicated, it usually goes away - quietly.

[Team Sergeant]

That being said, though the bruises from this beating are fresh and painful, I'm feeling the love.


Team Sergeant, how do you suggest clearing double feed malfuntions if they were to ever occur???

To answer your question:

I cannot recall, seeing, or having a double feed while using a .45 that could not be cleared by using the method I've described. (A .45, most of them anyway, do not actually and cannot actually "double feed", they're too damn big a bullet to do that. Not really the same as a real double feed on an M-4. Damn, might some defensive tactics instructor be using/instructing a malfunction drill used for a M-4 and thinking it will also work on a .45 handgun????? Say it isn'so :rolleyes: )

It may not work for every handgun on the market ,but then I only use handguns I'd bet my life on....... ;)

TS

BTW, I'm happy to see you can "take the beating" we dish out. ;) I like LEO's and it is my desire to make you guys better at what you do.

[The Reaper]

To answer your question:

I cannot recall, seeing, or having a double feed while using a .45 that could not be cleared by using the method I've described. (A .45, most of them anyway, do not actually and cannot actually "double feed", they're too damn big a bullet to do that. Not really the same as a real double feed on an M-4. Damn, might some defensive tactics instructor be using/instructing a malfunction drill used for a M-4 and thinking it will also work on a .45 handgun????? Say it isn'so :rolleyes: )

It may not work for every handgun on the market ,but then I only use handguns I'd bet my life on....... ;)

TS

BTW, I'm happy to see you can "take the beating" we dish out. ;) I like LEO's and it is my desire to make you guys better at what you do.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

There is not enough room in the feed area of any .45 ACP handgun I have ever used, to hold two .45 rounds at the same time.

I suppose that if you had a complete extractor failure, then a round (or case) could remain in the chamber while another was on the feed ramp, but I do not think that it would completely leave the feed lips of the mag.

TR

[swatsurgeon]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but bear with me....
the origin of the tap-rack, etc.... MAY have been with the advent of plastic/polymer mags that , like the early glocks, were not 'drop-free' and the operator (civilian) may not have known if the mag was properly seated. The weapons used by TS, TR, NDD all likely have metal mags and if not seated are on the deck, therefore they would know it was seated properly sice the gun goes bang (or for TS, BOOM).
I agree with all previous statements made by the QP's here and having seen it from both sides, i.e., LEO, SEALS, "experts" and then having the TS get hold of me, I can tell you he/they are right.
How many LEO's at any range, home or away go to fire and have the "DEAD MAN CLICK"? No round in the chamber. My own SWAT team on the last workout had 2 officers do it.....loudest sound you ever hear before you get shot....and they are 'professionals'.
Feeling the pain being dished out here is nothing compared to the pain of me the Trauma Surgeon operating on you for a GSW.....

just my 2 cents.

ss

[NousDefionsDoc]

I press check my weapons - all of them - before I call them loaded. Old habits die hard I guess. How I do it depends on the weapon, but I gots to see shiney brass in the chamber before I call myself jocked up. I think odds are if it loaded the first round from the mag and one doesn't do anything silly to it in the interval, the mag is seated. I don't use my magazines for forearm grips and I don't fiddle fart around with my pistol in the holster after I put it away. I don't pull on them to see if they are seated. And I don't have problems with the mag coming unseated.

[CoLawman]

Failure to feed. I have noticed in the civilian world, magazine are ignored as if they have some sort life time maintainence design from the manufacture. I have only seen military folks talking magazines apart for cleaning, inspecting and lubrication. Magazines need love and care too!

That has not been my experience.

I have seen magazine stick causing a failure to feed from improper maintenance, dirt, damaged or wierd loading (ie; jamming 22 rds in a 20 rd mag). The simpliest solution is what has been suggested, drop it, and insert a new mag.

Not to belabor the point, but this does not relieve one from having to "RACK".

The TRB method was designed to address all occurrences. No need to learn several techniques when one covers all the bases. Sure.......a TAP may not have been needed..........due to failure to charge the weapon. But IF the magazine was not seated then you can charge all day.

I have thought and thought and thought, but cannot come up with a common occurrence in which this method does not work.

Simplicity and Success

TAP: Just in case the mag is not seated or... see Hollis' comment above about sticking mag.
RACK: Clears the jam, stove pipe, loads an empty weapon, discharges a dud, ad infinitum.
BANG: You are back in the fight.

Endorphin's first post is an example of why "One Technique".

It is easy to teach and remember.

78,300 hits when one searches TRB. I noticed several where people are arguing against this method. They have inserted "their" variations. One was Tap Rap...... Assess and Then Bang. What the.......???? :rolleyes:

:munchin

[Peregrino]

TRB solves the most problems for the most people. So long as whoever teaches it includes TS' invert move to clear the chamber. It does not require fine motor skills, it can be programmed as a reflex, it is very efficient, and it puts an effective/proven technique that can be taught quickly in the hands of as many people as are willing to learn it. Efficiency is extremely important when teaching large numbers of people. It is equally important when being shot at. One technique that can be applied to 90+ % of the malfunctions that might be encountered is a lot better than having five different techniques that together cover everything and wasting the time deciding which one to use. If you have a malfunction that can't be solved with TRB maybe it's time to initiate the "E" part of your PACE Plan and run away (i.e. look for cover). BTW - If the gun's empty, it's not a malfunction, it's time to reload. Stress does horrible things to people's brains. Slow down, quit panicking, realize the slide is locked back, and reload (another drill the pundits complicate beyond reason). My .02 - Peregrino

[Smokin Joe]

I press check my weapons - all of them - before I call them loaded.

Ditto,

Before any pistol gets holstered for wear I press check it. Long guns get pressed checked before the business begins.

[Gene Econ]

Guys:

Quite interesting thread. I was getting worried that I was reducing the rare stoppage in one of my 1911's the wrong way for twenty five years. I never figured there were four or five ways to do this depending on the situation and am happy that sane people here, both my SF comerades and others, confirmed for me that I have been doing this simple task correctly all along! How could I have figured this out without having to attend a shooting academy I wonder? He, he, he.

I do have a serious question though.

One of you all mentioned the 'double feed' situation that seemed to plague the M-4 carbine for quite a while. Not really a true 'double feed' but I know exactly what you are talking about. Expended cartridge jammed between the bolt and the receiver and one round kind of hung up whilst attempting to get into the chamber. Can't say I have ever seen this with the M-16A1 or A2 but I have seen it more times than I can count with the issued M-4.

I am curious if anyone has a 'reduce a stoppage' drill for this particular circumstance. Those of you who have seen this know that you can't pull the charging handle back, the bolt is part way in the buffer spring tube so you can't shotgun the carbine, and you can't force the bolt shut either. Aside from shooting the M-4 with your pistol, what are your 'reduce a stoppage' drills for this particular type of failure to function on the M-4?

Gene

[Peregrino]

Gene - Transition to handgun! The only thing I've ever seen/done that half-way worked as an IAD was to dump the magazine first thing before racking the bolt. It gives a little more room for things to fall free if it hasn't wedged tight. Then reload off your rack/LBE. Using the MILSTD SPORTS usually makes things worse and really jams things in place. I had a carbine that did this regularly (diagnosed extractor problem) that seems to work now that I've had my gunsmith fix the gas system, swap bolts and add an O-ring to the extractor spring. (Expensive name brand upper too - made it even more annoying.) My .02 - FWIW :cool: Peregrino

[HOLLiS]

I had a double feed on a M16, and Yep NO %$#@ way to open it up. The forward pivot pin was not coming out. Fortuantely it was during a training. With time I was able to dig the spent case out.

It does point out the "club" factor of any firearm. When it ceases to work, how good of a club is it.

[Endorphin Rush]

I believe that Peregrino and CoLawman hit this nail on the head with their explainations behind the teaching and use of the TapRackBang drill.


OK, so let's talk about the M4...

How's this for remediating a double feed malfunction, or similar, in a Colt M4:

1. Lock the bolt to the rear...
2. Rip/Remove the mag from the magazine well...
3. Rack the charging handle 2-3 times, or until the weapon is clear of any rounds/
casings...
4. Insert new magazine...
5. Rack the charging handle...

or, would it be better to just automatically drop the mag first as Gene Econ suggested, followed by steps 3 through 5 as described above.

(Yes, transition to handgun first if rounds are needed on a threat. And later remediate the M4 using whatever best cover is available.)

[Scotty]

FWIW, If it's the same Jeff Gonzales he's a former SEAL and (from what I hear) a decent instructor. I'm sure he had a reason to instruct that method of clearing, but asking him would have been the only way to find out why.

If you talk to him again, tell him to get back to Charlotte! He owes me a beer.

Scotty

[Martin]

Regarding M4 double feeding, here's the FM solution:
U.S. Army Field Manual, FM 3-22.9, Chapter 3 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c03.htm)
Troubleshooting and destruction

[..]

3-2. Malfunctions
a. Failure to Feed, Chamber, or Lock. A malfunction can occur when loading the rifle or during the cycle of operation. Once the magazine has been loaded into the rifle, the forward movement of the bolt carrier group could lack enough force (generated by the expansion of the action spring) to feed, chamber, or lock the bolt (Figure 3-1 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c03.htm#fig3_1)).

[Figure 3-1 Failure to feed, chamber, or lock, showing what I believe to be two M16A2 uppers with the lower one having a round injected into the chamber. Between them list reads]:

Failure to feed first round.
Bold carrier not fully closed.
A double feed of two live rounds.

[...]

(2) Corrective Action
Applying immediate action usually corrects the malfunction. To avoid the risk of further jamming, the firer should watch for ejection of a cartridge and ensure that the upper receiver is free of any loose rounds. If immediate action fails to clear the malfunction, remedial action must be taken. The carrier should not be forced. If resistance is encountered, which can occur with an unserviceable round, the bolt should be locked to the rear, the magazine removed, and the malfunction cleared. For example, a bolt override is when a cartridge has wedged itself between the bolt and charging handle. The best way to correct this problem is by-

Ensuring the charging handle is pushed forward and locked in place.
Securing the rifle and pulling the bolt to the rear until the bolt seats completely into the buffer well.
Turning the rifle upright and allowing the overridden cartridge to fall out.


The immediate action drill is listed on that same page, although I'm positive you already know it.

Just my .02

Martin

[Endorphin Rush]

Scotty,

Yes. I'm referring to THE Jeff Gonzales. However, these methods are not instructed by him. The methods that I've posted are those taught by my department's instructors. I did not attend Jeff's course. A teammate of mine did. What he brought back from Jeff's course is the impetus for the questions that I'm asking.

If I ever get to meet him, and I'd love to get to one of his courses, I'll tell him you were asking about him.



Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.

[Gene Econ]

Regarding M4 double feeding, here's the FM solution:For example, a bolt override is when a cartridge has wedged itself between the bolt and charging handle. The best way to correct this problem is by-

Ensuring the charging handle is pushed forward and locked in place.
Securing the rifle and pulling the bolt to the rear until the bolt seats completely into the buffer well.
Turning the rifle upright and allowing the overridden cartridge to fall out.

Martin

Martin:

Roger that -- 'bolt override'. This technique was written by folks who work at Rock Island. I have great respect for some of them. The guy who wrote this procedure I may have difficulty with as it doesn't represent reality.

Good luck pulling the bolt to the rear and no, most of the time the spent cartridge won't fall out. Most of the time you will spend about ten minutes prying the spent cartridge with leatherman or perhaps a screw driver.

I have had guys stand the errant carbine on its stock and hold the barrel with great force as I slam my boot down on the charging handle repeatedly until I can get the bolt back far enough to ensure better prying of the brass.

I can't say I have seen one instance of this where the brass just comes out.

I have had an aversion to the issued carbines for close to fifteen years due to such experiences. My view is changing though as I have seen more and more new carbines actually function properly. However, I still don't trust them as much as I would a service length upper. Never found the barrel length to be as significant as stock length on issued M-16 series of weapons in terms of speed. Have always found that the issued 20 inch barrel will outperform the carbine barrel hands down and it seems there are far less 'bolt overides' and other problems with the service length uppers than the carbines.

Gene

[Team Sergeant]

Martin,

I’m aware what the manual says and a double feed with an M-4 usually leads to a “remedial” action and not a malfunction drill.

I’m not one that believes in SPORTS, or have ever taught it to others. I believe a quick glance says it all and one should take action from there.
Proximity to bad guys is key to a malfunction drill, remedial action or transition.

Team Sergeant

[Gene Econ]

Guys:

I have been thinking on this thread for a few days in fact and perhaps my observations can be of assistance concerning malfunctions drills for the issued M-16 series of weapons.

I have had the unique opportunity to watch a wide variety of soldiers go through some unique weapons training we have been conducting for two Stryker Brigades at Lewis. I have observed soldiers perform immediate action on their M-16A2s and M-4 carbines. My observations and conclusions are relatively simple but it took a while for me to figure them out and this was based on talking with said soldiers following their training.

Soldiers will perform a malfunctions drill according to their self training. 'SPORTS' is a basic drill -- most of which is unnecessary if the soldier knows what happened when it happened. One thing I will say about this drill is that it defies human nature and thus it does nothing more than cause confusion within the soldier and results in a decrease in confidence as opposed to an increase. Why does this defy human nature? Because Americans are, by our culture, very much focused on critical thinking and the first step in such a process is to 'see' the problem. Thus soldiers hesitate when being told to 'Slap, and Pull' prior to 'Observe'. Human nature is to look first and when you see someone out of AIT hesitate when he has to reduce a stoppage etc., it is because what the bureaucrats teach isn't human nature at all. Joe understands that to undo a problem, he must first know what it is and this is normally by seeing the problem prior to acting. I have noted three categories of shooter in our little world.

One is out of AIT and for him, doing what the Army taught him is primary. When what the Army taught him doesn't work, he gets seriously confused as he has never been taught to think in Basic or AIT. Cold War bureaucracy at work.

The second has some experience and isn't concerned about how someone sees him perform. However, this category lacks the confidence to critically think then act so he hesitates before he unfucks the problem. Many of the guys we have had in this cagetory have significant combat experience. Unfortunately, they have never really drawn any conclusions from this experience nor have they bothered to learn their trade in terms of setting some professional goals for themselves and then achieving those goals.

The third type is far different. These guys have significant combat experience PLUS they have learned how their weapons work. Combat experience does not necessarily relate to common sense guys. However, combine the experience with a guy who can critically think and who has spent the time to learn his profession --and you have 'The Next Level'.

Why can't I give any solutions to malfunction issues? Because guys on different levels of mental performance will do things differently. The AIT grads will do SPORTS even if the rifle is plain empty. The second classification will look then get confused for a second, then try parts of SPORTS, then fix the problem. The third level ('Next Level' as we call this) of guys hears and feels what happened based on noise and recoil and they will probably look to confirm their subconscious understanding taken in by feel and sound -- then will take the correct action and do so in a very short period of time. They went into the course of fire or drill totally aware and thus are like lightning when a problem occurs.

OK -- how can you train someone to get to the 'Next Level' in these terms? Well, if you want to spend some time and very little resources -- you can train the guys to do the right things very quickly and perfectly. Focus them on what a rifle feels and sounds like when it locks back on an empty magazine. Use various types of dummy cartridges to replicate double feeds or other failures to function and let the guys feel and hear what this is. It won't take long for them to come to some conclusions -- however we have found that you have to let guys develop their own sense of trust in what their senses are taking in.

I will say two things about the Army doctrine of SPORTS. First, it works in technical terms. Second, it fails in terms of critical thinking, cognitive development, and human nature.

So I don't know the best way to do this simple action and we don't try to influence soldiers on any best way. What we do is to ensure the soldier knows what thngs sound and feel like and then train them to trust themselves.

Esoteric? He, he, he. It works far better than incessant drills with no thought involved.

Gene

[Martin]

Sirs Gene and TS, roger, and thank you for pointing that out.

Martin

[NousDefionsDoc]

I have had good luck pulling the bolt to the rear with a hammer on the charging handle....

[Scotty]

I have had good luck pulling the bolt to the rear with a hammer on the charging handle....

Yes, but you do that to charge the weapon even when there's NOT a malfunction! :D

Good to see you, Sneaky! Missed your humor.

Scotty

[Endorphin Rush]

I have had good luck pulling the bolt to the rear with a hammer on the charging handle....

I've been tempted to use my 1911 for this. It's made of steel...you can use it for such things such as this, can't you???? :D :lifter

a double feed with an M-4 usually leads to a “remedial” action and not a malfunction drill. I believe a quick glance says it all and one should take action from there. Proximity to bad guys is key to a malfunction drill, remedial action or transition.

Absolutely!

So I don't know the best way to do this simple action and we don't try to influence soldiers on any best way. What we do is to ensure the soldier knows what thngs sound and feel like and then train them to trust themselves. Esoteric? He, he, he. It works far better than incessant drills with no thought involved.

OK, this is where I was looking to go.

NDD once posted a thread (maybe in a different forum, even) where he simply asked a simple question and let the topic develop. I was hoping that was what would happen here. And you folks did not disappoint.

While I WAS looking for literal examples of HOW you were doing things, I was hoping that some might delve into the esoteric aspects of this topic.

This is GOOD stuff.

Thanks guys. Keep going...???

[NousDefionsDoc]

I don't do SPORTS either. I am, however, required to teach it. I also look at the problem and fix it, after I transition and clear. I do it pretty much without thinking about it.

My weapons tend not to malfunction much. I don't know why that is.

[Roguish Lawyer]

My weapons tend not to malfunction much. I don't know why that is.

I do. :lifter

[7624U]

With the M-4 make sure your Bravo's get the new extractor springs with O-ring this will fix alot of the double feed problems if a carbine does it alot.
as for unsticking bolts, the edge of a helmet used as a hammer works better then the old step on the chargeing handle trick and is alot safer.

[Goat Bandit]

This may be a dead thread but I had a recent experience that some may benefit from.

Gene wrote, "One of you all mentioned the 'double feed' situation that seemed to plague the M-4 carbine for quite a while. Not really a true 'double feed' but I know exactly what you are talking about. Expended cartridge jammed between the bolt and the receiver and one round kind of hung up whilst attempting to get into the chamber. Can't say I have ever seen this with the M-16A1 or A2 but I have seen it more times than I can count with the issued M-4."


Without going into much detail, I was involved in a situation on a two-way range where I burned through a magazine. I took a knee to reload and when I inserted the second mag and tried to palm the bolt release and nothing happened. I rolled the rifle over to observe the ejection port but since it was dark and my goggles weren't focused in that close I couldn't see. I felt with my weak hand that the bolt was stuck about halfway back. I dropped the mag and opened the door of the HMMWV so I could stand behind it. I tried to rack the bolt to the rear but it was stuck. I have one of those badger tactical latches on my charging handle and it felt like the harder I pulled back on it the more the entire charging handle would flex to the right. I tried to feel inside of the magazine well with my thumb but couldn't tell if there was more than one casing or round in there (gloves). I finally unclipped the rifle from the sling and grabbed the charging handle on both sides and banged the butt stock against the deck. This cleared the stoppage. I thumbed the top of the second magazine, inserted it and racked the bolt. I dropped the mag and thumbed the top of it again taking note that the round was on the other side now and reinserted it. I never fired it again, (I found my place on the radio) I realize now that I should have to make sure it worked. It was only about 20 seconds from the time the malfunction occurred to when it was cleared, but it seemed like it took forever. I can also see that with the adrenalin pumping it might be very easy to bend a charging handle on your M4. The range was beyond max effective for a transition to the pistol.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

I agree with TS..."
Handgun malfunctions; leave gun pointing out toward tgt, arm at full extension, turn gun 180 degrees so that the slide is “upside down” rack the weapon, turn gun “upright” and continue to fire. Takes about half a second when practiced."
That's what I was taught and never Tap. Blitzzz