View Full Version : Kiss or Kill: Confessions of a Serial Climber
Just started reading this collection of essays/articles from a Punk/Extreme Alpinist named Mark Twight. So far (about 80 pages), the book is an engaging, somewhat profane, look at this man's addiction to mountaineering and his total inability to deal with stupidity or mediocrity.
What is of value for this board, IMO, is his constant drive to push himself beyond human levels of endurance, his reliance on his considerable skill and talent, and his fierce independent streak. I'm not sure I'd trust him as an individual on the street, but on an ice climb, I'd confidently put my life in his hands. His mission seems to pioneer new routes up and down the worlds most dangerous mountains and to work/live at the threshold of experience.
I'd be interested if any folks here who work/have worked on a mountaineering team have read this book or have heard of him and have anything to add to this.
Thanks,
Books
The Reaper
07-15-2005, 13:06
I do not know the author.
I do have several acquaintances in similar high-risk sports like skydiving and BASE jumping.
Most chase the "edge" and the accompanying adrenaline rush until the odds catch up with them and they die young.
Not saying that is a good or a bad thing, but your description sounds like he might be that sort of person.
TR
Peregrino
07-15-2005, 14:05
"Punk" isn't a compliment in my vocabulary. My personal experience with that personality type is negative. They tend to be very disruptive of everything around them and rarely make good team players for longer than it takes to accomplish their personal goals. I prefer a more "balanced" personality. Yes, we all like a thrill, we all like measuring ourself against a higher standard, and we all expect our teammates to be similiarly motivated. That doesn't mean monomaniacally driven. Obsessive-compulsive personality disorders - even ones that manifest themselves as a "need" to challenge/push limits tend not to promote a quality team atmosphere. Everyone has weaknesses - even "superheros". Living in cramped quarters for extended periods with guys like this is "unpleasant" at best. When they get bored because they aren't getting their ego/adrenalin fix, they make life miserable for everyone around them. In SF - especially in high-stress environments - the ability to contribute to a team and subordinate your own ego to the demands of the group/mission, is far more important than stroking yourself with amazing feats of "derring-do". It's a question of maturity. FWIW - Peregrino
Thank you Gentlemen for your responses.
TR wrote, "your description sounds like he might be that sort of person."
He seems more addicted to the abuse inherent in thin air/hypoxic climbing. As far as I can tell from my limited exposure to climbing (low-altitude, non-technical routes in the Olympic mountains: real basic stuff) climbing is essentially a masochistic activity. Elevation gain is a grind no matter how you take it; kicking steps into soft snow just makes it worse. But I kind of dig it, so what can I say?
In regards to Peregrino's comments, I couldn't agree more. But in one part of the book though, he talks about how if one is going to succeed, one must fully commit to the activity. For him, obviously, it's climbing. For guys on this board, the comment works equally well for SF training/missions. I guess I'm trying to say that there may be nuggets of value from this in spite of his anti-social behaviors.
From the book jacket, it says that he undergoes some form of maturation through his experiences. We'll see.
Thanks again,
Books
Didn't finish the book; each essay seemed to be a repeat of the last. He hates himself, he goes climbing, nearly dies, feels better. Granted that may be a gross oversimplification, but I've got a lot of books to read and not a lot of time to do it. He does climb some insane routes though. . .
Did a bit of research on Twight though. Seems to have outgrown some of his youthful angst. Now works as President of Grivel North America and trains SOF in military mountaineering. Owns company called Mountain Mobility Group and designs cold weather gear for the military. Had a contract with NAVSPECWARDEVGRU in 2004.
FWIW
Books.
If you want an incredible story, check out We Die Alone, by David Howarth, about Jan Baalsrud.
Now works as President of Grivel North America and trains SOF in military mountaineering.
Let's clarify a bit. He most probably advises or provides occasional training to SOF.
Let's clarify a bit. He most probably advises or provides occasional training to SOF.
The info I got had him doing contract training for 40 days in the last year in extreme Alpine Style Mountaineering (light, fast, and high).
Bill Harsey
07-19-2005, 14:20
The info I got had him doing contract training for 40 days in the last year in extreme Alpine Style Mountaineering (light, fast, and high).
I think this is what Razor meant.
I think this is what Razor meant.
Fair enough. Just trying to add detail.
Let's clarify a bit. He most probably advises or provides occasional training to SOF.i would suspect that the six or seven Bergfuhrers i knew would be better suited for this task...none of them were punks...there were a couple of commo men (three that i recall), a weapons man and a medic or two...
Just like guys go to civilian shooting schools to glean information in support of the military-focused training they've received/will receive, it sounds like this guy's training is of the same variety, as very seldom will a SOF mountaineering team do work that could be described with the words 'light' or 'fast' when combined with the term 'high'. Compare this with the idea of adventure racers teaching SOF how to move over terrain--while there may be some tidbits here and there that could be useful and possibly adapted, the overall concept isn't viable in a military environment.
Then again, I've been wrong before.
Just like guys go to civilian shooting schools to glean information in support of the military-focused training they've received/will receive, it sounds like this guy's training is of the same variety, as very seldom will a SOF mountaineering team do work that could be described with the words 'light' or 'fast' when combined with the term 'high'. Compare this with the idea of adventure racers teaching SOF how to move over terrain--while there may be some tidbits here and there that could be useful and possibly adapted, the overall concept isn't viable in a military environment.
Then again, I've been wrong before.considering that none of the original six or seven burgfuhrers are still on active duty, and considering that a couple were last seen doing just exactly what you mention, i figured they would be a better source of training...and from my experience with these sadists, they moved across that kind of terrain pretty quickly...
Leozinho
07-19-2005, 18:36
Given that Twight has probably forgotten more about climbing than anyone in the military knows, I imagine that he can tailor his course to something more practical than, say, putting up lightning fast ice climbing routes.
Twight is/was heavily into IPSCA , is practioner of concealed carry (which itself caused a lot of the climbing community to shun him), and a vocal supporter of the military. Considering the anti-military attitude of many of the outdoor athletes and industry, I'd say Mark Twight is one of the good guys.
For example, a few months back one of the climbing mags ran an advert from a aid climbing gear company that said the company would no longer sell to the military because it didn't support the war in Iraq and therefore wouldn't help supply the military. (It's not even one of those "we're against the war but we support our soldiers" positions. The company is flat out "we aren't helping the military and hope things go badly for the US.)
The interesting part was that the advert was clearly meant to build the company's status in the climbing community. The company (I'm trying to find the name) makes hooks and cams used to assist in climbing progression, rather than gear that is just used as protection from falls as it is in most types of climbing. It's a technique mostly used only on big walls like those in Yosemite, and I can't imagine that a big part of its sales are to the military. Makes me think they were bragging about shunning the military rather than actually taking a position that would hurt their bottom line.)
Mark Twight is active on the forum at www.crossfit.com if you guys want to talk to him directly.
Given that Twight has probably forgotten more about climbing than anyone in the military knowsi rather doubt it...
Bill Harsey
07-19-2005, 21:23
It's taken me just over twenty years now of constant exposure and study to barely begin to understand what the men of United States Army Special Forces are capable of or may be tasked to do.
I do not confuse this with any great understanding but would bet money what I know and understand is a bit above the average person on the street.
One of the most amazing things I've learned is how little a comparative civilian activity, like rock climbing, may have to do with a military operation in the same environment.
As to the climbing company who is proud of their non support of the United States military, this statement only proves a profound cluelesness that permeates our society, and it is this:
"Those for whom everything is provided have the luxury of condemning those who provide"
from some knife shop in Oregon...
i googled this guy Twight and found this...
http://classic.mountainzone.com/climbing/99/interviews/twight/
same climb was a prerequisite to graduation from Alpini School in 1981...
The Reaper
07-19-2005, 22:04
Given that Twight has probably forgotten more about climbing than anyone in the military knows....
I think you are sorely lacking in the quals department to be commenting on the skills of your predecessors.
You are also exhibiting a tendency to post before thinking, which could be a bad indicator.
How many CIBs does Twight have?
TR
How many CIBs does Twight have?he's running a dead-heat with me... :D
i'll bet he never got a paper cut from rolling leaflets...
"If someone wants to pull an M-7 (hard mixed climbing, demanding the use of dry tooling) with bolts every five feet, great. I hope they have the experience they are looking for. But if they try to pass roadside gymnastics off as equivalent to hard alpinism, I'll call bullshit. Its the difference between ballet and war."
Fair enough statement. However, how many of these hard climbs has he completed after a 30km movement to the base, at night with zero illum, under noise discipline, carrying a combat load and any required mission essential equipment (demo, pyro, long-range commo equipment and batteries), with not only the environment but also a bunch of ill-tempered bad guys trying to kill him? Its the difference between recreational climbing and war.
As an FNG trainee, I'm going out on a limb here and should the QPs find me too uppity, they're free to slap me down, BUT. . .
I just read a post by WM in which he discusses a book he's putting together with an ultradistance runner. I quote,
"I am partnering with a World Champion UltraEndurance Athlete for this report. Stu Mittleman set the world record when he ran 1,000 miles in 11 days. Then he ran from San Diego to New York City in 56 days averaging 2 marathons a day.
Do you think he knows a thing or two about running and taking care of your body?
IF YOU'RE GOING TO LEARN, LEARN FROM THE BEST."
The all caps were his.
Now certainly Mr. Mittleman doesn't know everything there is to know about SF operations, but he is considered the best (or one of the best) in his field. As is Mr. Twight. Just as Mr. Mittleman has pioneered new feats in the world of distance running, Mr. Twight has done similar things in the climbing community.
If we can learn from the distance runner, why can't we learn from the climber?
My apologies if I presented Twight as the end-all-be-all of military mountaineering. That wasn't my intention. Going back to my original reason for starting this thread: when I was reading his book, I recognized (on a real fundamental level) some of the same physical and psychological issues/challenges/opportunities I've faced/enjoyed/endured in my own training. I thought others here might have as well.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I'm still quite a ways away from a long tab, and like most other guys in the pipeline, any info that helps me become a better SF soldier is devoured.
I'm going climbing this weekend.
Cheers,
Books
Warrior-Mentor
07-20-2005, 17:17
I must have missed something.
Sounds like Twit is just using the sports analogy the same way Football announcers do. I don't like it because using war as a metaphor dilutes it. It cheapens the word, because when the game is over on Sunday, everyone takes a shower and goes home. It might be a fight, but it's not war. But then again, I am in a dead heat with him for CIBs.
If he's got the technical knowledge to help out teams be more effective, great.
We're the one's who have to figure it out how to use it in a tactical environment.
As for Stu, he never claimed to be in the military or made an analogy to war. He did, however write me a note about how he's used the actions of the men in the military to inspire him on runs in the past. I'm paraphrasing now, but it was something to the effect of thinking to himself "Our soldiers deal with harder situations than simple stuff like running, so I can keep going..."
NousDefionsDoc
07-20-2005, 17:28
I climbed a rock once. Went out with a Jarhead that had been to Bridgewater or Bridgeport or whatever it is. I mostly did it to see if I could and thought it might be a useful skill to get out of a jamb, especially after Reaper sent me to search a cave one time.
I could.
As an FNG trainee, I'm going out on a limb here and should the QPs find me too uppity, they're free to slap me down, BUT. . .
IF YOU'RE GOING TO LEARN, LEARN FROM THE BEST."good point...name Reinhold Messner ring a bell...? all the Bergfuhrers in BT had some instruction from him...he is not an punk extreme alpinist...he probably has more firsts than Herr Twight....
Just as Mr. Mittleman has pioneered new feats in the world of distance running, Mr. Twight has done similar things in the climbing community.new things in climbing...interesting...when his new climbing achievements involve moving a 4.2" mortar along the face of a 5+ traverse on a fixed installation he put in himself, i'm all ears...when the first climb i read about of his is one that I'VE made twice, sorry, but i know military climbers who are much better than i am...
If we can learn from the distance runner, why can't we learn from the climber?yep...would i send an A-team to learn from Messner or Twight? no...i'd send my Bergfuhrer...he is better suited to separate the wheat from the chaff, ignore this egotists self-centered bullshit and glean the stuff that i need to kill bad guys and break things...
I'm going climbing this weekend.
enjoy it while you can...damn arthritis, i'm going to shoot and ride my motorcyle...pleasant enough substitutes...
Leozinho
07-20-2005, 19:12
Twight doesn't have a CIB, but I think we can agree that we can learn from someone that doesn't have one.
My language teacher seems to be doing an good job despite his lack of combat experience. SWCS instructors have said their A-teams brought in running coaches to work on running form. There are probably other examples, but I wouldn't know.
I see no problem with picking the brains of someone from outside the military, especially given that he can dedicate all of his time and energy to one narrow focus. Soldiers don't have that luxury, and must master many disciplines. I also have no problem admitting that some civilians know more about certain things than soldiers.
After all, what soldier could be expected to rack up the same amount of knowledge of the mountains that took Twight more than 20 years of full time, professional climbing?
NousDefionsDoc
07-20-2005, 19:35
Wasp nests...ant beds...sticks...
Wasp nests...ant beds...sticks...LOL...i ain't gonna do it...i ain't gonna do it...the hell i ain't...
After all, what soldier could be expected to rack up the same amount of knowledge of the mountains that took Twight more than 20 years of full time, professional climbing?someone born and raised in the mountains...someone who climbed mountains before becoming a soldier...someone who climbed weekends, took climbing vacations...men who had two passions in life, soldiering and climbing...do you know anyone like that...? i do....
The Reaper
07-20-2005, 21:20
Given that Twight has probably forgotten more about climbing than anyone in the military knows, I imagine....
That was your first mistake.
Do you know that many people in the military?
How much team time do you have, stud?
Do not presume to speak for me or my brothers again.
Twight doesn't have a CIB, but I think we can agree that we can learn from someone that doesn't have one.
My language teacher seems to be doing an good job despite his lack of combat experience. SWCS instructors have said their A-teams brought in running coaches to work on running form. There are probably other examples, but I wouldn't know.
I see no problem with picking the brains of someone from outside the military, especially given that he can dedicate all of his time and energy to one narrow focus. Soldiers don't have that luxury, and must master many disciplines. I also have no problem admitting that some civilians know more about certain things than soldiers.
After all, what soldier could be expected to rack up the same amount of knowledge of the mountains that took Twight more than 20 years of full time, professional climbing?
As already noted, did Twight accomplish this with a load on his back and a mission on his plate?
If not, he is comparable to using a world champion sport jumper as a military freefall instructor. We see the same things with IPSC champs. Nice sport, some things to be learned, mostly mechanical manipulation, not tactics.
You better tell me who in SWCS said that they brought in a coach to teach them how to run.
Think before you jump into this fray again.
TR
Ya know, sometimes this feels like dealing with my kids.
Son: "Dad, why does X happen the way it does?"
Me: "Well, that's because Y, and sometimes Z"
Son: "But what about A, B and C?"
Me: "That's a good point, and good job for thinking of that, but Y & Z pretty much cover the reason in full."
Apparently Deaf Son: "But I think A, B and C are right."
Me, quickly losing patience: "I understand you think A, B and C are important, but trust me when I tell you they're not, and here's why."
Ungrateful, stubborn little Sh%$: "I still think A, B and C are better explanations than Y & Z."
Me, thinking of places I could hide the body: "Look, you asked me a question, and I gave you an answer based upon my experience and knowledge. While A, B and C might sound good to you, you don't fully understand everything behind why Y & Z are the correct answers. You don't know enough yet to fully understand, but someday you will. Until then, please accept the fact I might know more about this than you, and that I gave you good information on this, ok?"
Some kid that certainly can't be sharing my genes: "Ok" ::walks off grumbling about how he still thinks A, B and C make more sense::
Me, well into an Excedrin moment: "Honey, please remind me why we ever thought having kids was a good idea."
Ya know, sometimes this feels like dealing with my kids.
"Honey, please remind me why we ever thought having kids was a good idea."i'm here for you...all i wanted was a puppy... :(
Warrior-Mentor
07-21-2005, 12:56
TR, as usual, brings up a good point.
Compare civilian sky diving with military free fall.
There's a lot of great sky divers out there. We can learn some of the basic of basic body flight theory from them. You can also learn a lot of sexy stuff that has absolutley no military application (turning points in a formation sky dive, etc).
They can't teach how to conduct a night, combat equipment, grouping jump with oxygen. They don't use it. Not a ding on them, they just don't know the tactical application.
If you want to learn to sky dive, go to a civilian DZ. If you want to learn Military Free Fall, go to HALO School. Using skills from one can help with the other. The challenge, especially as someone new to both (MFF and skydiving) is to be able to recognize the areas that are different.
Make sense? Or did I just kick the ant's nest again?
They can't teach how to conduct a night, combat equipment, grouping jump with oxygen. They don't use it. Not a ding on them, they just don't know the tactical application. their equipment is different, as it serves a different purpose...i never had room in my rucksack for friction shoes...now if rock climbing was my raison d'etre, i would have brought them, but since i had other things to do, i used Chippewas...or i bought boots similar to Chipps...
night climbing, like night jumping, is a whole 'nother world...climbing in rain, snow, wind, while many of the more advanced (civilian) climbers will do it, is very different when you strap on a rifle (or a rubber duck) and a rucksack...
fast, high and light is different when SF does it...you can only go so light...you need the radio, you need an aid bag and a basic load of bullets is reassuring in many environments...so how light is light? what is the mission? i don't want a civilian climber telling me that my ruck should weigh no more than 10 kilos, when i need to tote a 40 lb shape charge up to the top to do something...
high is a function of military necessity...the peak of Everest has little military value...Pointe du Hoc, not all that high, was of paramount importance for Operation Overlord...we operate in the mountains for a few reasons...mountains are great sanctuaries, provide some avenues of concealed movement, and from time to time, there are people or things in mountainous areas that we need to observe and report on, steal, rescue, recover, break or kill...i would prefer not to have any civilian input on how to do that...
fast, once again, is a relative term...if i am moving 200 troops over a mountain at night in bad weather, since i am probably in an unfriendly neighborhood, i have to moderate my speed to avoid comprimise...a certain degree of elitism exists on all SF specialty teams, but that has to be tempered with the fact that the indig may not have gone to SCUBA school and may have a differing world view (not to mention priorities) than the team guys...expedient is a better term for SF mountaineering...but the civilian climber who has forgotten more about cliimbing than any soldier ever knew doesn't seem to have the tolerance for that sort of thing...i need everyone of those guys going across the fixed installation with me...i can't afford to alienate them and i can't afford to hurt one of them because more than likely, i expect some sort of throw-down at the other end of the rope...
once again, our hero probably has a few techniques that we could use...i would bet he could learn more about mountaineering medicine from NDD than he could teach NDD about practical rock climbing...we didn't award too many style points when i was doing that sort of thing...
Or did I just kick the ant's nest againi've been stewing over the comment about how little i know in regards to a civilian...that always chaps my ass...when it comes to diving, jumping, climbing or walking (backpacking), there are some civilian techniques to be learned, but for the most part, civilians are clueless as to the whys and wherefores of how we need to do things...IMNHO...
so, are you on the NYT best-seller list yet?
Warrior-Mentor
07-21-2005, 13:47
so, are you on the NYT best-seller list yet?
Not YET. (recognizing this IS a niche market...)
Funny you should ask though...just got off the phone with the Warrior Foundation...will put the details under book reviews thread for GET SELECTED...