Eval: POF Gas Piston, M4 type upper

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

I had the opportunity to fire a new weapon.

I am sure you have heard about the various gas piston type M4 guns on the market. I had heard about the ones offered by DSA, SOG Armory and HK. After doing some research I found out the DSA and SOG upper is actually made by POF-USA. As luck would have it POF-USA is located in Phoenix Arizona, where I just happened to be visiting family. (How lucky can a guy be?) POF imports HK parts from a HK built factory in Pakistan. POF also builds Aerospace parts. The piston guns are made in the AZ factory NOT in Pakistan as was suggested by some Internet experts.

Long story short, I talked with Frank (the owner) and Chris (2IC) Desomma and they gave me a show and tell and allowed me to test fire some weapons. 1,200 rounds were fired out of three guns, two of which had 9.5 inch barrels. Most rounds were fired full auto. No malfunctions of any kind. The really impressive thing was the lack of heat or fouling on the bolt/bolt carrier. I pulled the carrier group out of the gun after 4 straight mags were fired and I was able to hold it in my hand. In fact I could touch the bolt face to my cheek. In addition to the lack of heat the carrier group was almost clean. Now clean is great but the important thing is the lack of heat. What this means to us Knuckle Draggers is longer firing between cleaning and a longer parts life. I have broken bolts, bolt carriers, sheared locking lugs, and gas keys while firing the M4. Everything made will break, but with less heat it will take longer to break this gun than it will a conventional M4 type weapon.

I ended up buying two of the uppers for my own personal use. One is the standard length rail and one the mid-length rail. I used the standard length for a two-day carbine train-up where I fired about 1500-1700 rounds. The gun ran like a champ. It seems just as accurate if not more than any other M4 I have fired. I have not shot groups other than to zero, but the gun had all the accuracy I could make use of. It also feels like it recoils similar to a conventional M4 but seems to have more of a push “back” than “up” when fired. This is just my observation and not anything scientific. It could be the vortex flash hider or the operating system, who knows.

Anyway, I highly recommend that you try this weapon out when you get a chance. I am very happy with mine so far. Of course the HK gun is beautiful, but currently unavailable for commercial purchase. (I love HK but you gotta wonder if HK really understands profit?)

I will keep you all posted as I shake this weapon out and I will also post some pictures when I have time.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

[Archangel]

Do you have any pictures?

[The Reaper]

Pricing?

How does it appear to stack up agaist the HK416?

Thanks for the info!

TR

[Achilles]

http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416pricelist.htm

[Peregrino]

S5XX - You're the second person I've run into in the last two months that was willing to plunk down real money to own one of these. The first guy spoke well of his too. He uses it as his primary carbine for teaching (a lot - LEO Patrol Carbine classes) with so it gets a lot of rounds put through it. He bought one at the SHOT Show and had some problems with it but Customer Service fixed him up (gave him a new one) and now he talks good about them too. What are you using for a sight system on the mid-length rail? I assume it covers the gas block on the barrel? And keep sending reports, the wife's "to buy for birthdays etc." list keeps getting longer. Wouldn't want her wasting money now, would we? Peregrino

[SERPENT5XX]

Peregrino,

The upper with standard length hand-guards come with a front sight that looks much like a standard M4 type sight with the exception being it mounts to the gas block with two screws. The rear sight is a Troy Industries model.

The upper with mid-length hand-guards come from POF with Troy Industries flip up sights front and rear. The rear is in the standard position and the front are on top of the rail toward the front end of the rail approximately just past the gas block position. Prior to this I had no experience with Troy sights mostly using GG&G, KAC or ARMS, but I really like the Troy sights so far. Very well made, they fold down close to the rail and they lock up with a very positive feel. Time will tell but so far I am impressed with the sights that came on it.

I am going out of town for a short time but when I get back I will post some pictures of the weapon.

Good luck with your Birthday buy list!

Take care,

SERPENT5XX

[Peregrino]

Good luck with your Birthday buy list!
SERPENT5XX

Thanks - It just took another $600 hit this afternoon! I've got to tell all my buddies to quit showing me "can't live without it" toys. Looking forward to the report card for your uppers. I've been looking hard at this because of the opportunity to use a suppressor at work. After previous experience with the extra fouling caused by the increased backpressure, I've been thinking about the advantages of a gas piston system. Since HK doesn't want to play in the open market this might be the best thing going without spending the $1600 - $1800 on a Robinson Arms Carbine (which looks really cool - despite the price tag). So we await your report with "bated breath" and try not to spend the allowance all in one place. Peregrino

[Ambush Master]

Well, I've been on the lookout for a "Flat-Top" upper for my A1 and I picked one up this last weekend !!!

I'll post Pics tomorrow, it has a flip-up front and rear and looks to be very well built. It's basically an FAL gas/M16 mix operating system. Might know that I'd get it right after the big 4th machinegun shoot !!!

Sean, this makes Three !!!

Later
Martin

[Ambush Master]

Camera malfunction !!!!!

I'll post as soon as the batts and chips permit !!!!

[EchoSixMike]

I've been playing with the Leitner-Wise gas piston gun and I'm trying to do a more serious(more than the 400rds I put through the last one) eval in the next few weeks of this gun in both 5.56 and .499 flavors in 10.5, 14.5 and 20inch formats. It's potentially a solid design that makes use of the dual spring extractor enhanced bolt. S/F....Ken M

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

Here are some pictures of my POF upper.

I have fired another 600-700 rounds out of it since my initial report with no problems. Ammo fired consisted of Wolf, mil Green-tip, Blackhills, and PMC.

The POF upper is a 16 inch barrel with a "standard length" M4 type hand guard. They also make what POF refers to as "mid-length" hand guards.

The rifle is a Bushmaster lower with EO-Tech red-dot, Troy flip-up BUIS (which came with the upper), Tango-down pistol grip & a Surefire M910A "gangster grip" light. The gun also has a GG&G single point sling mount installed. Hooked to the GG&G mount is a CSM sling.

The internals of the lower receiver have been coated with NP3 by ROBAR.
The NP3 allows for easier cleaning and gives a smooth trigger pull as well as slick safety selector operation.

I have used NP3 on M4 bolts and it eases cleaning and seems to make the gun run smother.

The POF bolt is hard chromed from the factory and I have no plans to have it NP3'd.

This rifle has gone through 2 conventional upper receivers. It has suffered a broken a bolt (where the cam pin passes through) and have sheared the gas key off.

The charging handle has a Badger Ordnance tactical II latch.
I have tried the Badger Ordnance Tactical I latch and found it too large. It caught on my kit and became "un-latched".
I now mostly use the Precision Reflex Industries "gas-buster" latch with my gas guns as well as on my work M4. The PRI latch is great when using a suppressor but since the POF gun does not operate the same way as a gas gun most of the "gas-buster" usefulness of the PRI is no longer applicable but the extended latch is still nice.
While in the local "toy store" I saw the Badger Ordnance II latch and thought I would give it a try.

Due to having a single point attachment located near the charging handle I like having an extended latch to give a little extra handle to hook on to when I run my bolt. I only use my non-firing hand to run the bolt because I maintain my firing grip on my weapon with my strong hand.

So far I really like the Badger II latch. It seems to be about the right size. Time will tell.

Here are some picts of some of the charging handles I am referring to.

From Left to right:

Standard mil-spec charging handle
Badger Ordnance Tactical I
Badger Ordnance Tactical II
PRI "gas-buster" charging handle

I am considering buying a POF 9.5 inch for my privately owned (LEGAL & REGISTERED) "Title II" weapon. I realize the velocity limitations caused buy the shorter barrel but it would still be fun for plinking at the range.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

[Doc]

SERPENT5XX,

Thanks, beautiful pixs.

Doc

[Gene Econ]

[QUOTE=SERPENT5XX] This rifle has gone through 2 conventional upper receivers. It has suffered a broken a bolt (where the cam pin passes through) and have sheared the gas key off.

Mr. Serpent: Woaahh -- went by this part too fast, he, he, he.

What is the cause of these problems? I take it they happened with the straight gas system and not the op rod system?

Gene :lifter

[SERPENT5XX]

Gene,

The breaks both occurred on the previously installed conventional direct gas uppers.

If I remember correctly they both occurred while at Mid-South Institute of Self-defense Shooting (MISS). There are several ranges at MISS where the potential to fire many rounds of ammo exists while completing the course of fire. I have also seen several M4's break in comparable ways over the years in Kuwait while doing CQB flat range training. This mostly happened in the summer months due to the ambient air temperature along with the high round count drills. This high rate of fire was often more than the conventional M4 type gas system could endure. (We tried to fix this by going with the heavier profile M4 barrel)

Anyway when you fire a conventional M4 type upper hot gases are funneled from the barrel through the gas tube and into the gas key on the bolt carrier group. This is what causes the gun to cycle. These hot gasses make the bolt and bolt carrier very hot. Heat, or more importantly the constant heating and cooling of metal causes it to fail long before it would if it was not subject to that abusive environment.

Next time you go to the range shoot a couple of mags through your M4, then pull out the bolt carrier group and hold it in your hand....ouch!! Now do it with a piston driven upper. I have fired 3-4 mags as fast as I could pull the trigger on my POF gun and then pulled the bolt carrier out....barely warm. I could hold it to my face. Also there was a significant lack of carbon crud on the POF bolt for the same reason.

This lack of carbon and heat in the POF gun is because the piston system does not spray hot gas directly into the chamber to run the gun.

Are you familiar with the FN FAL? It uses a similar method. I believe that this lack of hot gas being sent directly into the chamber will lead to an extended weapon life as well as added reliability in the piston systems. POF, HK, what ever M4 type weapon with this system will have this benefit inherently due to the system of operation, brand name aside.

I hope this clarifies my post for you.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

[Peregrino]

SERPENT5XX - Good info, thanks for the pics. Unfortunately I have to wait a while to jump on the bandwagon. (My truck is costing me $2200 for a mechanical fix so I won't have any allowance for a while.) I did pick up a PRI "Gasbuster" charging handle for the SPR upper I'm getting built yesterday. Now it'll have to sit in the safe until I can afford the scope. !Asi es la vida! :( Peregrino

[POF-USA]

Gene,

The breaks both occurred on the previously installed conventional direct gas uppers.

If I remember correctly they both occurred while at Mid-South Institute of Self-defense Shooting (MISS). There are several ranges at MISS where the potential to fire many rounds of ammo exists while completing the course of fire. I have also seen several M4's break in comparable ways over the years in Kuwait while doing CQB flat range training. This mostly happened in the summer months due to the ambient air temperature along with the high round count drills. This high rate of fire was often more than the conventional M4 type gas system could endure. (We tried to fix this by going with the heavier profile M4 barrel)

Anyway when you fire a conventional M4 type upper hot gases are funneled from the barrel through the gas tube and into the gas key on the bolt carrier group. This is what causes the gun to cycle. These hot gasses make the bolt and bolt carrier very hot. Heat, or more importantly the constant heating and cooling of metal causes it to fail long before it would if it was not subject to that abusive environment.

Next time you go to the range shoot a couple of mags through your M4, then pull out the bolt carrier group and hold it in your hand....ouch!! Now do it with a piston driven upper. I have fired 3-4 mags as fast as I could pull the trigger on my POF gun and then pulled the bolt carrier out....barely warm. I could hold it to my face. Also there was a significant lack of carbon crud on the POF bolt for the same reason.

This lack of carbon and heat in the POF gun is because the piston system does not spray hot gas directly into the chamber to run the gun.

Are you familiar with the FN FAL? It uses a similar method. I believe that this lack of hot gas being sent directly into the chamber will lead to an extended weapon life as well as added reliability in the piston systems. POF, HK, what ever M4 type weapon with this system will have this benefit inherently due to the system of operation, brand name aside.

I hope this clarifies my post for you.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

Thank you.
Your 100% correct. From a engineering stand point, "HEAT" is the biggest issue and is the reason we manufactured and first displayed our gas piston uppers at the 2004 Shot Show. A weapon system number one priority, must first be RELIABILE.


Here's some spec's / information on our shortest gas piston system.

O.C.C. (Offensive Compact Carbine) SPECIFICATION:
Barrel:
• 9.25” Heavy contour, Fluted to reduce weight and Heat
• 4150 Mil-B-1159F Vanadium Alloy (mil-spec, machinegun rated)
• Chrome Lined, and Manganese phosphate
• 5 groove (“5R” Polygonal), right-handed 1x7 twist, button rifled (Rock Creek Barrel Blank)
• Vortec, A2, or Krink Flash hiders

Chamber:
• 5.56 x 45mm Nato (.223 Cal.)

Method of Operation:
• Gas Piston operated, rotating bolt
• C.R.O.S. (Corrosion Resistant Operating System)

(Chrome plated: Barrel, Gas Block/Tube, Gas Plug, Gas Piston, Bolt Carrier Assembly)

Bolt & Carrier:
• Chrome plated 8620 steel bolt carrier, heat treated / plated per Mil Spec.
• Chrome plated steel bolt, heat treated, to Mil-spec
Sights:
• Fixed removable A2 front sight assembly

Weight:
• Empty – 6 3/8 lbs

Length:
• Extended - 30.25”
• Collapsed - 26”

•Fixed “Stubby” stock: 26”

Upper Receiver:
• A3 Flattop, Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
• Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
• P4 feed ramp cuts in receiver

Lower Receiver:
• Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy
• Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black
• Semi-auto trigger and Full-auto (LEO/Military Only)
• Ambi-selector

Stock:
• Retractable 6 position stock

Handguards:
• Oval carbine length (plastic), w/heat sheilds
• Predator tactical rail system™



Here are our results when chrono testing our O.C.C. gas piston 9.25" upper.
The barrel used was a Rock Creek 1:7 4150 Vanadium barrel blank. The "5R" should increase
the FPS average to 2400 FPS.


9 ¼ POF Chrono Data

Conditions: Sunny Temp 90F
Equipment: CED Millennium Chronograph

9 1/4" w/Vortex
Distance 10ft
Green tip 62gr- 2506,2439,2463,2486,2450 Ave 2468fps
BH 77gr- 2317,2306,2339,2332,2331 Ave 2325fps


9 1/4" w/Krink 7.62 cone
Distance 10ft
Green tip 62gr- 2447,2413,2406,2444,2419 Ave 2425fps
BH 77gr- 2315,2298,2309,2307,2305 Ave 2306fps


We compared our O.C.C. to a RRA 16.5" upper.
Rock River 16.5"

Distance 10ft
Green tip 62gr- 2889,2905,2911,2890,2885 Ave 2896fps
BH 77gr- 2674,2682,2681,2673 Ave 2677fps


Same weight and lenght of MP-5 but alot more PUNCH!
http://www.pof-usa.com/OSC%20WEAPON,%20MP5,%20Uzi%201.JPG

Our O.C.C. with retractable stock and optional Krink flash hider. (right side view)
http://www.pof-usa.com/DSC01423.JPG

Our O.C.C. with retractable stock and optional Krink flash hider. (left side view)
http://www.pof-usa.com/DSC01417.JPG

Piture of our very simple, hard chrome plated gas piston operating system.
*Notice the flute barrel (to reduce heat and weight), and our barrel nut design which acts like a heat sink also to reduce heat.*
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/Gas%20Piston%20Parts%202.jpg


Our gas piston upper fit on ALL mil-spec lowers. Just specify if you want a semi or full auto carrier. Barrel length's we offer currently are 9.25", 11.5" 14.5", and 16". We try our best to offer the best quailty products at the best value to the customer.
Best regards,

Frank
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. (POF-USA)
www.POF-USA.com (http://www.POF-USA.com)


PS: Not sure how to add pic's, but I added the links to the pictures for your review.

[The Reaper]

Frank:

You are promoting your product on our board.

Before doing that, it would be nice if you filled out your profile and introduced yourself here.

TR

[POF-USA]

Frank:

You are promoting your product on our board.

Before doing that, it would be nice if you filled out your profile and introduced yourself here.

TR

Sorry.
Trying to provide spec's and information regarding our system on the discussion of our system.

I'll try to modify my account. Wish me luck. :o
Best regards,

Frank

[Ambush Master]

As I stated earlier I have just recently purchased an upper, but I'm still waiting for the Full-Auto Bolt Carrier !! I do own a Legal M16A1. Mark Kinsler (SOG Armory) is supposed to be getting me the carrier.

I can't wait to try this one in Group Therapy Mode !! :D Do you recommend any change to the recoil spring, as in a stronger or weaker spring??

Later
Martin

[SERPENT5XX]

Frank,

Try to stay out of trouble here!

Seriously, read the Forum rules and comply.....and stay on the good side of Reaper :p .

You have a great product; please do not poison the well by violating the Forum rules.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

[Ambush Master]

Frank,

Try to stay out of trouble here!

Seriously, read the Forum rules and comply.....and stay on the good side of Reaper :p .

You have a great product; please do not poison the well by violating the Forum rules.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

I wouldn't say he's in trouble, came close, but not there. He was just answering a question that he is definitely qualified to answer. Now that the formalities are out of the way, I'm looking forward to possibly trying a Surefire Can on this Upper !!!!

Later
Martin

[POF-USA]

Frank,

Try to stay out of trouble here!

Seriously, read the Forum rules and comply.....and stay on the good side of Reaper :p .

You have a great product; please do not poison the well by violating the Forum rules.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

Thank you.
I don't want to get into any trouble here.
I just wanted to make sure all readers knew the spec's of our gas piston uppers.
Thanks again for the kind words of our product.
Best regards,

Frank
Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA)

[SERPENT5XX]

Frank,

Easy buddy, we still like ya, and we really love your rifle.



SERPENT5XX

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

I just returned from a two week stint at Mid-South Institute were I fired approximately another 1500 rounds out of my 16 inch POF upper. No malfunctions of any kind, it ran like a sewing machine. The part I still like best is that maintenance is a breeze compared to a gas M4. After that many rounds I basically I wiped down the bolt and ran some copper solvent down the barrel and I was done. My pistols, now that is another story!!

Take care,

SERPENT5XX

[Specat572]

Gentelmen,
I am one of the PHALANX Group guys(SERPENT5XX's Business Partner). Just a quick update on the POF weapons we have been pushing everywhere we travel.

The company is currently changing the anodizing process of their uppers and lowers, so this ultimately means slight 'backorder' delays. The head of the company, Frank Desomma and his 2IC brother Chris, have said anyone ordering online may see up to a six week dealy because of the change over.
After speaking with Chris Desomma two days ago, he says the delay times have been 'padded' a little but thinks he can provide a little sooner. Bottom line...it is still worth the wait for this upper or complete weapon(see SERPENT5XX's original posting on the subject). I purchased two of the 16" uppers:P-415-16-P4X-CF ,16" GAS PISTON UPPER W/PREDATOR RAIL SYSTEM, Troy industries flip up front and rear sights. Sent one into Iraq for a best friend (ODA 572 TM SGT) to eval for POF in real world conditions and the other as a gift for a brother still in 5th grp getting ready to retire.

I will caveat all of this with the fact the POF is in it for the right reasons- 1) the guy just thought he could make a better gun. Check that block because he has. 2) The man is a great American and wants to help out those in our line of work, i.e. military, police, trainers, and guys still doing the deal as contractors.
I have yet to come across an individual who at first touch of this gun does not immediately want to purchase it, then they fire it and want two or three in various lenghts and configurations.

The great thing for me is I live ten minutes from POF's doorstep and visit the guys once or twice a week. SERPENT5XX and myself stand to gain no profit from these guys, if that thought had crossed any minds. We just really believe out of everything we have owned, fired, borrowed, whatever, that this is the one to have.

If you hold Quiet Proffesional status here, PM myself or SERPENT5XX and we will get you connected directly with POF for a great deal. Will explain in my PM reply......

Thank you all,

Specat572 sends

[Specat572]

Frank,
I tried to post some pics of your weapon over in IRAQ.....files were too darn big. Sorry brother.

[Team Sergeant]

The great thing for me is I live ten minutes from POF's doorstep and visit the guys once or twice a week.
Specat572 sends

So when you taking me over there?

Send me the pictures and I'll resize them.

JD@professionalsoldiers.com

TS

[Specat572]

Sorry, I didn't see your posting on the 9th.....I will be heading over there today (friday) with another PXG guy to talk a little business that Frank would be interested in.

Give me a call, will go next week specifically to introduce you if you can't make a link up today

Specat572

[Sindervhit]

I've been interested in these uppers since I first ran into them on ar15.com discussions. The question I have is doesn't the Predator rail sit higher then the standard flat top system? My thinking is that this would change your POA or at least change the type of sights you have to use or something...obviously this isn't the case otherwise it would have been addressed by now...can someone here explain to me how the higher rail doesn't affect POA or POI?
Thanks.

[Team Sergeant]

I've been interested in these uppers since I first ran into them on ar15.com discussions. The question I have is doesn't the Predator rail sit higher then the standard flat top system? My thinking is that this would change your POA or at least change the type of sights you have to use or something...obviously this isn't the case otherwise it would have been addressed by now...can someone here explain to me how the higher rail doesn't affect POA or POI?
Thanks.

Anything that slightly raises the sight plane of the M-4 would be a welcome development. If you have noticed most of the current optics now being used are sitting very high on all the current rail systems, ever wonder why that is? Ever wonder why the iron sights don't sit that high? Has everyone on those other boards forgotten where the iron sights were on a M-16A1? The answers are very simple.

Edit to add: I will answer this one for you, the higher rail will have zero impact on your POA and POI. Now if you would be so kind to please explain your definition POA an POI to me?

Also a few more things to ponder, you mentioned a few other online boards, they sell products and advertising. Fair and impartial product review, I think not…… Go over to a Glock board and try selling the 1911 or vise versa. It’s called situational awareness. I can tell you what to think, you need to learn how to think.

Team Sergeant

[Pete]

If you hold Quiet Proffesional status here, PM myself or SERPENT5XX and we will get you connected directly with POF for a great deal. Will explain in my PM reply......

Thank you all,

Specat572 sends


It worked, this whole thread has me drooling.

I'll PM one of you two guys in about 2 weeks to set something up for an upper & lower transaction. I'm thinking of an X-Mas gift for myself. I'll have to get up with my local FFL guy to keep the paper work legal.

Pete

[Specat572]

Pete,
very cool that you are interested in one of Frank's guns. Remember though, this connection is for the Bubbas out there doing the real deal. Frank is serious about helping out the guys here with Quiet Professional status.

Like I said before, just PM SERPENT5XX or myself and we will do what we can to help expedite the process of aquiring one. BUT.... these uppers, as well as complete guns are becoming highly sought after. The wait list is growing brother.

best regards

Specat572

[JGarcia]

Since the HK416 features a cold hammer forged barrel, I wonder why POF chooses to manufacture their weapons without a cold hammer forged barrel?

Is a cold hammer forged barrel a better choice of steel than the 4150 Mil-B-1159F Vanadium Alloy for a combat carbine barrel?

I mean no disrespect, just curious.

[The Reaper]

A hammer forged barrel has some superior characteristics.

Unfortunately, it takes some very expensive equipment to make.

TR

[Sindervhit]

Edit to add: I will answer this one for you, the higher rail will have zero impact on your POA and POI. Now if you would be so kind to please explain your definition POA an POI to me?
Team Sergeant

Well, as far as I know, Point of Aim (where you're looking) / Point of Impact (where you hit). Granted, I haven't used a whole lot of different optics (mainly the Aimpoint), but it just seems like simple math that if you change the height of where the optic sits then your point of impact will be different...so you would need to re-zero obviously. I think I was assuming that optics have an ideal height they should be at on the rifle. I could very well be wrong, I don't know the math of it all.

[Team Sergeant]

Well, as far as I know, Point of Aim (where you're looking) / Point of Impact (where you hit). Granted, I haven't used a whole lot of different optics (mainly the Aimpoint), but it just seems like simple math that if you change the height of where the optic sits then your point of impact will be different...so you would need to re-zero obviously. I think I was assuming that optics have an ideal height they should be at on the rifle. I could very well be wrong, I don't know the math of it all.


Just making sure we were on the same sheet of music.

I'm not sure what you are getting at but if you sit an optic or iron sight on an upper receiver, and zero it your POA and POI should not change. Not unless you move those sights say to another upper receiver.

Optics have an ideal height, and they are pretty much set to that height. Then again I've seen men with long necks and men with no necks, so a higher or lower rail might be of some benefit to those. I prefer a higher optic and or iron sight, and it has to due with sight acquisition while at teh high ready. Some may not like that while in the prone.
hope that helped


TS

[Michael Vain]

The HK416 will cowitness the iron sight with an Aimpoint. I have mine sighted in at 50 yards. Out of a 10.5 inch barrel, I don't think you're going to try to engage targets at 100+ yards. I think a 50 yard benchmark is ideal for this carbine.

My 14.5 inch is sighted in at 100 yards with a 4x NSN ACOG.

I also recommend for any 10.5" carbine, you may want to try the Krink flash hider. I have a krink on the end of my 10.5" 416 upper and the recoil is noticeably different. It's a slower push, much like an HK roller lock gun. Very good in my opinion.

Here's my 416 set up.

5577

[Sindervhit]

That rifle is gorgeous!! How on earth did you come across an HK416? And did you have to pay the $2200+ for it (if I can ask that)?