Eval: POF Gas Piston, M4 type upper

SERPENT5XX · 07-09-2005, 10:00

Gentlemen,

I had the opportunity to fire a new weapon.

I am sure you have heard about the various gas piston type M4 guns on the market. I had heard about the ones offered by DSA, SOG Armory and HK. After doing some research I found out the DSA and SOG upper is actually made by POF-USA. As luck would have it POF-USA is located in Phoenix Arizona, where I just happened to be visiting family. (How lucky can a guy be?) POF imports HK parts from a HK built factory in Pakistan. POF also builds Aerospace parts. The piston guns are made in the AZ factory NOT in Pakistan as was suggested by some Internet experts.

Long story short, I talked with Frank (the owner) and Chris (2IC) Desomma and they gave me a show and tell and allowed me to test fire some weapons. 1,200 rounds were fired out of three guns, two of which had 9.5 inch barrels. Most rounds were fired full auto. No malfunctions of any kind. The really impressive thing was the lack of heat or fouling on the bolt/bolt carrier. I pulled the carrier group out of the gun after 4 straight mags were fired and I was able to hold it in my hand. In fact I could touch the bolt face to my cheek. In addition to the lack of heat the carrier group was almost clean. Now clean is great but the important thing is the lack of heat. What this means to us Knuckle Draggers is longer firing between cleaning and a longer parts life. I have broken bolts, bolt carriers, sheared locking lugs, and gas keys while firing the M4. Everything made will break, but with less heat it will take longer to break this gun than it will a conventional M4 type weapon.

I ended up buying two of the uppers for my own personal use. One is the standard length rail and one the mid-length rail. I used the standard length for a two-day carbine train-up where I fired about 1500-1700 rounds. The gun ran like a champ. It seems just as accurate if not more than any other M4 I have fired. I have not shot groups other than to zero, but the gun had all the accuracy I could make use of. It also feels like it recoils similar to a conventional M4 but seems to have more of a push “back” than “up” when fired. This is just my observation and not anything scientific. It could be the vortex flash hider or the operating system, who knows.

Anyway, I highly recommend that you try this weapon out when you get a chance. I am very happy with mine so far. Of course the HK gun is beautiful, but currently unavailable for commercial purchase. (I love HK but you gotta wonder if HK really understands profit?)

I will keep you all posted as I shake this weapon out and I will also post some pictures when I have time.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

Archangel · 07-11-2005, 08:03

Do you have any pictures?

**The Reaper** · 07-11-2005, 08:25

Pricing?

How does it appear to stack up agaist the HK416?

Thanks for the info!

TR

Achilles · 07-11-2005, 08:36

http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416pricelist.htm

**Peregrino** · 07-11-2005, 09:10

S5XX - You're the second person I've run into in the last two months that was willing to plunk down real money to own one of these. The first guy spoke well of his too. He uses it as his primary carbine for teaching (a lot - LEO Patrol Carbine classes) with so it gets a lot of rounds put through it. He bought one at the SHOT Show and had some problems with it but Customer Service fixed him up (gave him a new one) and now he talks good about them too. What are you using for a sight system on the mid-length rail? I assume it covers the gas block on the barrel? And keep sending reports, the wife's "to buy for birthdays etc." list keeps getting longer. Wouldn't want her wasting money now, would we? Peregrino

SERPENT5XX · 07-13-2005, 19:09

Peregrino,

The upper with standard length hand-guards come with a front sight that looks much like a standard M4 type sight with the exception being it mounts to the gas block with two screws. The rear sight is a Troy Industries model.

The upper with mid-length hand-guards come from POF with Troy Industries flip up sights front and rear. The rear is in the standard position and the front are on top of the rail toward the front end of the rail approximately just past the gas block position. Prior to this I had no experience with Troy sights mostly using GG&G, KAC or ARMS, but I really like the Troy sights so far. Very well made, they fold down close to the rail and they lock up with a very positive feel. Time will tell but so far I am impressed with the sights that came on it.

I am going out of town for a short time but when I get back I will post some pictures of the weapon.

Good luck with your Birthday buy list!

Take care,

SERPENT5XX

**Peregrino** · 07-13-2005, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SERPENT5XX

Good luck with your Birthday buy list!
SERPENT5XX

Thanks - It just took another $600 hit this afternoon! I've got to tell all my buddies to quit showing me "can't live without it" toys. Looking forward to the report card for your uppers. I've been looking hard at this because of the opportunity to use a suppressor at work. After previous experience with the extra fouling caused by the increased backpressure, I've been thinking about the advantages of a gas piston system. Since HK doesn't want to play in the open market this might be the best thing going without spending the $1600 - $1800 on a Robinson Arms Carbine (which looks really cool - despite the price tag). So we await your report with "bated breath" and try not to spend the allowance all in one place. Peregrino

**Ambush Master** · 07-18-2005, 21:27

Well, I've been on the lookout for a "Flat-Top" upper for my A1 and I picked one up this last weekend !!!

I'll post Pics tomorrow, it has a flip-up front and rear and looks to be very well built. It's basically an FAL gas/M16 mix operating system. Might know that I'd get it right after the big 4th machinegun shoot !!!

Sean, this makes Three !!!

Later
Martin

**Ambush Master** · 07-19-2005, 21:29

Camera malfunction !!!!!

I'll post as soon as the batts and chips permit !!!!

EchoSixMike · 08-01-2005, 00:47

I've been playing with the Leitner-Wise gas piston gun and I'm trying to do a more serious(more than the 400rds I put through the last one) eval in the next few weeks of this gun in both 5.56 and .499 flavors in 10.5, 14.5 and 20inch formats. It's potentially a solid design that makes use of the dual spring extractor enhanced bolt. S/F....Ken M

SERPENT5XX · 08-07-2005, 14:44

Gentlemen,

Here are some pictures of my POF upper.

I have fired another 600-700 rounds out of it since my initial report with no problems. Ammo fired consisted of Wolf, mil Green-tip, Blackhills, and PMC.

The POF upper is a 16 inch barrel with a "standard length" M4 type hand guard. They also make what POF refers to as "mid-length" hand guards.

The rifle is a Bushmaster lower with EO-Tech red-dot, Troy flip-up BUIS (which came with the upper), Tango-down pistol grip & a Surefire M910A "gangster grip" light. The gun also has a GG&G single point sling mount installed. Hooked to the GG&G mount is a CSM sling.

The internals of the lower receiver have been coated with NP3 by ROBAR.
The NP3 allows for easier cleaning and gives a smooth trigger pull as well as slick safety selector operation.

I have used NP3 on M4 bolts and it eases cleaning and seems to make the gun run smother.

The POF bolt is hard chromed from the factory and I have no plans to have it NP3'd.

This rifle has gone through 2 conventional upper receivers. It has suffered a broken a bolt (where the cam pin passes through) and have sheared the gas key off.

The charging handle has a Badger Ordnance tactical II latch.
I have tried the Badger Ordnance Tactical I latch and found it too large. It caught on my kit and became "un-latched".
I now mostly use the Precision Reflex Industries "gas-buster" latch with my gas guns as well as on my work M4. The PRI latch is great when using a suppressor but since the POF gun does not operate the same way as a gas gun most of the "gas-buster" usefulness of the PRI is no longer applicable but the extended latch is still nice.
While in the local "toy store" I saw the Badger Ordnance II latch and thought I would give it a try.

Due to having a single point attachment located near the charging handle I like having an extended latch to give a little extra handle to hook on to when I run my bolt. I only use my non-firing hand to run the bolt because I maintain my firing grip on my weapon with my strong hand.

So far I really like the Badger II latch. It seems to be about the right size. Time will tell.

Here are some picts of some of the charging handles I am referring to.

From Left to right:

Standard mil-spec charging handle
Badger Ordnance Tactical I
Badger Ordnance Tactical II
PRI "gas-buster" charging handle

I am considering buying a POF 9.5 inch for my privately owned (LEGAL & REGISTERED) "Title II" weapon. I realize the velocity limitations caused buy the shorter barrel but it would still be fun for plinking at the range.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

Doc · 08-07-2005, 16:09

SERPENT5XX,

Thanks, beautiful pixs.

Doc

Gene Econ · 08-07-2005, 19:19

[QUOTE=SERPENT5XX] This rifle has gone through 2 conventional upper receivers. It has suffered a broken a bolt (where the cam pin passes through) and have sheared the gas key off.

Mr. Serpent: Woaahh -- went by this part too fast, he, he, he.

What is the cause of these problems? I take it they happened with the straight gas system and not the op rod system?

Gene

SERPENT5XX · 08-07-2005, 20:57

Gene,

The breaks both occurred on the previously installed conventional direct gas uppers.

If I remember correctly they both occurred while at Mid-South Institute of Self-defense Shooting (MISS). There are several ranges at MISS where the potential to fire many rounds of ammo exists while completing the course of fire. I have also seen several M4's break in comparable ways over the years in Kuwait while doing CQB flat range training. This mostly happened in the summer months due to the ambient air temperature along with the high round count drills. This high rate of fire was often more than the conventional M4 type gas system could endure. (We tried to fix this by going with the heavier profile M4 barrel)

Anyway when you fire a conventional M4 type upper hot gases are funneled from the barrel through the gas tube and into the gas key on the bolt carrier group. This is what causes the gun to cycle. These hot gasses make the bolt and bolt carrier very hot. Heat, or more importantly the constant heating and cooling of metal causes it to fail long before it would if it was not subject to that abusive environment.

Next time you go to the range shoot a couple of mags through your M4, then pull out the bolt carrier group and hold it in your hand....ouch!! Now do it with a piston driven upper. I have fired 3-4 mags as fast as I could pull the trigger on my POF gun and then pulled the bolt carrier out....barely warm. I could hold it to my face. Also there was a significant lack of carbon crud on the POF bolt for the same reason.

This lack of carbon and heat in the POF gun is because the piston system does not spray hot gas directly into the chamber to run the gun.

Are you familiar with the FN FAL? It uses a similar method. I believe that this lack of hot gas being sent directly into the chamber will lead to an extended weapon life as well as added reliability in the piston systems. POF, HK, what ever M4 type weapon with this system will have this benefit inherently due to the system of operation, brand name aside.

I hope this clarifies my post for you.

Thanks,

SERPENT5XX

**Peregrino** · 08-07-2005, 20:59

SERPENT5XX - Good info, thanks for the pics. Unfortunately I have to wait a while to jump on the bandwagon. (My truck is costing me $2200 for a mechanical fix so I won't have any allowance for a while.) I did pick up a PRI "Gasbuster" charging handle for the SPR upper I'm getting built yesterday. Now it'll have to sit in the safe until I can afford the scope. !Asi es la vida!

Peregrino