Pistol Coaching Via Email

[Peregrino]

Okay guys - This is a "cut & paste from a PM, sent to me by one of our "neophytes". He didn't feel that his "problem" warranted the attention of the general populace. I (naturally) disagree for a number of reasons:

1. I am a competent shooter and a capable shooting instuctor. I am not God's gift to pistoleros nor am I the "great guru". There are a lot of people (especially in here) who are equally competent - or better - who might be able to explain things with their own twist so that you grasp it better than if I were to attempt it. Denying them the opportunity to participate is depriving yourself of an invaluable resource.

Edited to add: And the rest of us a lot of fun!

2. Quality learning is a synergistic experience. The more input, the greater the benefit. It's like a chain reaction. Of course not everything you get will be valuable - some of it may be pure BS. However, with sufficient input from enough different qualified experts, the true BS is exposed and you are not led (too far) astray. And no matter where you go for learning, you are still responsible for what you learn and incorporate into your own technique. Life and learning is like an "a la carte" menu - smorgasbords are my definition of heaven. Single sourcing may be convenient, but it's very limiting.

3. I have no intention of posting the marksmanship training manual it sounds like you need/want. I can't remember everything off the top of my head, and I hate typing/writing. If we get enough participation, I won't have to and you will get the benefit of everybody's wisdom.

4. There is such a thing as dumb questions. All of us ask a lot of them in the course of a lifetime. I'm (mostly) a nice guy - I deleted your name to save a little embarassment. Say thank you and don't do it again. The questions you ask are fairly common. The answers will benefit more than just you. Sometimes you have to take one for the team. Next time suck it up and lay it on the line. (After you've checked to make sure your question has not been answered elsewhere!)

Nuff said. I will give my answers to your questions in a subsequent post. I'm tossing this out to let the rest of the guys chew it over while I answer - I type like pond water moves. Not very fast. FWIW - Peregrino




Peregrino,

I hope you don't mind me bothering you but I have a couple of shooting / handgun questions that have been troubling me for a few weeks. I am writing you a PM because I do not know if they warrant beginning a thread dedicated to my problems.

Here goes:
I shot every Tuesday almost exclusively indoors all winter. By May I pretty consistently shot a dead center 3 inch group at 25 feet. I had shot outdoors three or four times to see how I would do with cold hands, wind, etc. My groups always fell apart while outside and I attributed it to the temp. Once the weather broke I began shooting outdoors and I am horrible. If I avoid the outdoor range, and shoot indoors two or three times in a row my groups tighten up to where they should be.

This has me perplexed. It is disappointing to see myself shoot so inconsistently. I don't know what to do. I bought 1000 rds and plan on trying to shoot myself through the problem, but at the same time I don't want to spend 1000 rds doing the same things wrong. Is there something different about shooting outdoors?

Secondly, to expand on the problem, because it is never so easy as to be a single problem, I purchased a new handgun.

To be clear the first problem occurs with and is exclusive to me shooting my Glock 19 and occurred consistently before the new gun purchase.

I recently purchased a HK USP 45, not in small part to the rave reviews provided by TS. I suck with it. Plain and simple. The week before I bought it I shot hole in hole with a stranger's gold cup on an indoor range. I pick up the USP and almost all of my shots fall about 4 inches below where I am aiming and couldn't stick together it the teacher made them hold hands. After three or four magazines my hand got fatigued and it was down hill from there.

So I thought I knew the drill, I buy some snap caps and practice dry fire three nights a week, for two or three hours, for about three weeks in addition to a small amount of range time. Poof I step up on my next serious range day and shoot respectable groups with the HK. The problem is that it took almost 100 rds to get back to shooting tight groups with the Glock.

What can I do to reconcile the problems I am experiencing so that I can shoot both respectably with zero modifications to the firearms?

Put the two of these together on a bright sunny day after an entire winter of shooting accurately and consistently, and I am happy that no one is around to see me shoot. It is really a pathetic sight to witness.

What can I practice to correct my problems?

I hesitate posting this in public because a) the Indoor / Outdoor problem seems kind of flukey to me. Mainly because I am a novice compared to you and the other members and feel like a real super idiot saying that two months ago I was putting 15 rds in a three inch hole and now because of some sort of "vampirism" sunlight takes away my "super powers". b) TS's answer to my Glock HK resolution question would be to throw away my Glock. While that may still be a viable solution I was shooting the glock very consistently and never had problems shooting 1911 Kimber or Colt, Walther, M-9's, etc.

Thanks in advance for your time and any light you may be able to shed on my situation. If I am over reacting or over thinking the problems please tell me. For all I know I may just be in a slump or having shitty month and just need more range time.

Thanks again,

[lksteve]

indoors you have constant light conditions, outside you have varying light conditions...indoors you have constant calm, outside you have varying wind conditions...indoors you have minimal distractions along your line of sight...i don't know about the outdoor range you fire at, but in my time i have inhaled bugs, seen birds fly across the firing line, heard sirens in the distance, etc...outdoors ain't indoors...you need to practice in both environments...

i suspect changing light conditions might be the biggest problem you face...try going from dark to light, shadows to sunlight, with the wind, against the wind, cross winds, varying conditions...it takes alot of practice...some, like TS, master shooting pistols...some of us are issued shotguns...they gave me the radio...

changing guns presents a challenge in and of itself...it would have been a better idea to isolate you problems in one environment without introducing multi-variable calculus to the problem...

[Team Sergeant]

My first "important" question:

Did the "neophyte" that PM'ed you purchase any SFA raffle tickets from us? :munchin

Team Sergeant

[Peregrino]

Part II

1. Have you ever had any FORMAL marksmanship training? Critical question. If you haven't go get it NOW! Otherwise, you're wasting ammo and building bad habits. Do not let your ego get in the way of quality training. That's why I find it easier to teach women to shoot - they listen and (usually) do what they're told. That and they don't have a lot of baggage and bad habits that I have to get out of them.

2. Find a mentor, hopefully somebody who can coach you (they have to know what they're doing). Find a shooting buddy. Find somebody who will go to the range with you. When you go to the range - train with a goal in mind. Work with your partner; practice perfection. A disciplined approach with feedback and charted progress is the only way to improve. Look at some of the PT threads here - the same principles apply.

3. IIRC - the fundamentals are: Stance, Grip, Sight alignment, Sight Picture, Breath Control, Trigger Manipulation, Follow-through, and Recovery. Learn what those words mean (I'm not rewriting the book - Google the Army Marksmanship Manual or the NRA/CMP pubs if you want to know more) and apply them. They are the foundation that all pistol marksmanship (from NRA Bullseye to CQB and combat survival) is based on. You don't learn to shoot like the TS (I've seen him - he is that good) without mastering the fundamentals first. Your PM sounds like you don't have a clue; not trying to be cruel, just factual.

4. Solve one problem at a time. Every time you introduce multiple variables, you have no idea which one is the base problem. By changing multiple factors at the same time you are essentially "stacking tollerances" (Mr. Harsey or FS can explain in detail) and you cannot isolate the problem to fix it.

5. Going from an indoor range to an outdoor range is the same as going from the lab to the field. One is sterile and isolated, the other is the real world with all of the distractors included. Quit running back to the indoor range and concentrate on marksmanship fundamentals on the outdoor range. You don't defend yourself on an indoor range, quit using it to establish your baseline. What you describe is fairly common - it's also mostly between your ears. Concentrate on fundamentals, nothing else matters. Keep allowing inconsequential details to affect your concentration and one of these days we'll read about you in the obits.

6. Either one of your pistols is adequate (neither is on my favorite list but I wouldn't turn them down either). Decide which one you want to be good with and learn to shoot it well. Different pistols will shoot to different points of aim. Changing grip angle (Glock vs. HK - BIG CHANGE) will result in a different point of impact (POI). Changing ammo will change POI. Trigger pull, lighting changes - etc., etc., etc. Decide which gun you want to shoot. Learn to shoot it well. When you've mastered the fundamentals with your primary pistol then you can try applying them to different pistols. You will be surprised how easy that is when you have mastery with the first one.

7. FWIW I consider a good shot group to be 4" at 25m fired rapid fire - 10 rounds, 10 seconds w/magazine change. I've gotten lazy, my group right now has grown to about 6". It requires practice (remember the lazy part) and a strict concentration on the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship. Add moving, reloading, using cover, communicating, and the myriad of other tasks required to survive a gunfight and it's easy to see why average LEO hit rates are as low as 15-18%. The guys who treat it like a martial art and learn it like their life might depend on it have hit probabilities exceeding 85-90% (which is damn good in a running battle).

Hopefully this gives you something to work with. Peregrino

[mumbleypeg]

What glasses are being worn? Indoors? Outdoors? Check clothing as well. Small variations can and do make a great deal of difference.

I found Brian Enos "Practical Shooting" helpful. I think I will bow out now and enjoy the instruction. I keep hearing the phrase "ears open, mouth shut".

[lksteve]

I found Brian Enos "Practical Shooting" helpful. I think I will bow out now and enjoy the instruction. I keep hearing the phrase "ears open, mouth shut".yeah, but some of the big dogs are still on the porch...sitting here with my notebook and pencil and everything.... :(

[Peregrino]

I'm trying to stir the pot - everybody keeps sending me PM's. Keep that up and we'll never entice the big dogs off the porch. For you Southern boys - it's like catfishing. The big ones don't bother coming out of their holes unless the bait is really enticing (dead and smells awful). So quit sending me PM's. I'm not the "Mr. Manners" of the board. You've got to move out and draw fire.

If you're a "neophyte" and you have something to contribute - toss it out there. It's an excellent opportunity to practice people skills. Hopefully, if you get good at it, something that can save you having to use the gun skills. SA, risk management, and people skills are the preferred first line of defense backed up hard with Mr. Colt or equiv.

Win, win - if you're right and you don't draw fire we learn and you collect positive points. If you're right but you do draw fire, time to work on your delivery. If you're wrong - we get entertained and you learn a valuable lesson.

Still stirrin Boss, still stirrin! :D Peregrino



Edited to add - Most responses are concentrating on minutia. Observations about lighting, wind, or other distractors - while true, are overlooking the realities of gunfighting. None of that stuff is important when the lead is flying. - P

[Team Sergeant]

I bought 1000 rds and plan on trying to shoot myself through the problem, but at the same time I don't want to spend 1000 rds doing the same things wrong.

This made me smile….. So with that train of thought, do you think that if you hit 1000 golf balls you could drive like Tiger Woods? You think Tiger just woke up one morning and said, “I think I’ll become the number one golfer in the world and I’m fully prepared to spend 30 minutes a day in order to accomplish this task.”

Anyone can pull a trigger, fire a pistol and launch a bullet, just as anyone can hit a golf ball, now where they go, consistently, is another story.

You are in good company, 99.5% of the people that shoot handguns don’t really understand pistol marksmanship. Most understand enough to be very dangerous. (Which makes me happy in some respects; I know the bad guys are relying on pure luck when they start a gunfight…) Yes, I said 99.5%.

Want to shoot like me? Let me know when you can do 100 push ups and 20 pull ups, non stop, and properly.

TS

[72_Wilderness]

Could it be possible that the wrong kind of training is being done? Minutes, hours, and days spent training will only help if you are training in the correct fashion. Logically one should train in the manner that they intend to fight. Does it really matter how small of a group you can make, shouldn’t a shooter be more concerned about the placement of the shots.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com...ight=chest+head
“They go to the range. Put the target perfectly square to them. Then they proceed to slow fire the box of ammo into the absolute tightest shot group they can. Then they brag to their buddies they shot this tiny hole.

A professional trainer calls the phenomenon Marksmanship Maturbation. Why such a derrogatory term? Because the only reason they train that way is to make themselves
feel good.

You want to be like that guy at the end of the range by himself repeatedly clearing malfunctions with only his weak hand, then firing two to the chest, one to the head. Not fun training, good training.”

NDD can always get the point across.
I am not trying to argue with any QP’s, I just thought that I would mention that shot placement might be more crucial than the grouping size of your shots.

Peregrino might possible have qualified for some kind of award for being patient with us, neophytes. :D

72W

[NousDefionsDoc]

Find a competent and professional instructor.

Pay him.

Listen and do what he says.

Repeat for the rest of your life.

I disagree with "self-diagnosis" in neophytes. And most people in general. If you knew what you were doing wrong, you could just stop it.

I don't know what "call your shot" means. I thought that was baseball.

[Peregrino]

Find a competent and professional instructor.

Pay him.

Listen and do what he says.

Repeat for the rest of your life.

I disagree with "self-diagnosis" in neophytes. And most people in general. If you knew what you were doing wrong, you could just stop it.

I don't know what "call your shot" means. I thought that was baseball.

NDD - I'm pretty much with you. Shooting without a plan is plinking. Plinking is not training. That's why I said get instruction. Quality instruction gives value added to your ammunition costs. After somebody competent has taught you and drilled the basics, you can start spending money on additional training. Courses are the best learning method - direct instruction with feedback and mentoring. Books and videos are better than nothing, but only if you already have a solid foundation. Videos are better than books (personal opinion) because they let you see how the big boys do it. Just remember - most of them are competitors, not gunfighters. They are not usually concerned about tactics. (I still don't want one of them shooting at me!)

Self-diagnosis assumes you know what you're doing. If that were true there wouldn't be anything to diagnose. Even in the best shooters, it doesn't work well. That's why I said get a buddy and practice together. Have a plan and coach each other through it. After some basic training when you actually know the principles, coaching will improve both people; the shooter and the coach (you have to know what your doing first though). I do know what "call your shot" means and I don't use it for combat shooting exercises. It's best used during initial training while learning the fundamentals. By the time you move to combat shooting, it should already be internalized. What should be going through your mind is "front sight, front sight, squeeze!" (Hmm - Danger Will Robinson, Danger!) Learn to apply the fundamentals and everything else comes.

72-Wilderness - Nice search skills, and appropriate to the discussion. A point though - group size is important. Putting a pistol bullet where it will do the most good requires accuracy. It may also require multiple shots in the same area. Slow fire is a stepping stone towards that goal. What was being ridiculed was the guy who never leaves the start point yet still thinks he's accomplished something. Something for you to think about is the tradeoff between speed and accuracy. You can be very fast, or very accurate. Being both fast and accurate is a journey of a thousand steps. Start small. Go to the range, set up a blank piece of paper. Spraypaint a 4"-6" dot on it. Start between 3 and 7m. Practice firing 2 rounds into it as smoothly as you can. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. (Ancient mantra!) Keep all rounds inside the dot. Speed up until you are no longer keeping your group inside the dot. Improve your marksmanship until your group is again acceptable. Repeat, getting faster as time goes on. Add reloads, malfunction drills, weapon transitions, weak hand shooting, etc. following the same pattern. Use a shot timer to monitor progress. Have fun.

Okay - Somebody else's turn. Peregrino

[NousDefionsDoc]

Excellent post

[Roguish Lawyer]

Competent instructors are worth their weight in custom Harsey blades.

[Razor]

So, what did you get for the TS? :D

[NousDefionsDoc]

Competent instructors are worth their weight in custom Harsey blades.
Geez man, it's just a pistol, not the Holy Grail...

[Peregrino]

Competent instructors are worth their weight in custom Harsey blades.

If we all get together on this and pool our resources we could assemble a pretty big composite of a competent instructor. (I'm being conservative. I don't think any one person needs their body weight of Mr. Harsey's product for anything other than their ego. Mine's big, but it ain't that big!) Then we split the loot among the qualified participants. We don't want to use TS for our model though - soaking wet he might weigh 180. I on the other hand can contribute 230. That's another 50 lbs of Mr. Harsey's finest to divvy up. There might even be somebody bigger in here who would consent to be "used" for a worthy cause. All we need are some well heeled victi - uhh - students to pony up the price. Whadayathink?

"Calling the shot" is the technique of recalling the sight alignment and sight picture in the instant the weapon discharged and using that information to predict where the round (was supposed to) impacted on the target. Predicted is then compared to actual. The difference, both direction and distance, is then analysed to determine the causitive factors. The intent is to recall minor discrepancies in SA/SP (tells you where the bullet was supposed to go) and determine the "shooter errors" (incorrect application of marksmanship fundamentals - see Part II, para 3.) that caused the bullet to impact at a point that differs from the predicted. I use this technique when shooting long range rifle, slow fire, with a logbook and a coach to kick my ass and keep me focused. Pistols are more difficult to shoot with the same level of precision. The correct appplication of this technique with a pistol becomes "shot group analysis". Groups are used because minor errors tend to average out (standard shot dispersion) allowing shooter and coach to concentrate on major errors that occur consistently; e.g. anticipating recoil, poor trigger control, breathing, grip, follow-through, and stance. In order for the technique to have any value, the shooter MUST be able to shoot a recognizable group. That means inconsistent SA/SP (no discernable group) should not be the shooter's primary problem. Diagrams showing group placement and suggesting probable causes are available from a number of sources (google-fu). This coaching/training technique rapidly loses value as the shooter progresses from flat range, slow fire to multiple targets, rapid fire, and scenarios. Using progressive principles of training, the shooter should not be allowed to advance until marksmanship abilities exceed a minimum (you figure it out - on my range/apparatus, I figure it out) acceptable standard. (If they can't learn to shoot and hold up the team's progress - give them a shotgun, an aid bag, and tell them to stay out of the way! :D ) Seriously, the technique has it's uses when training novice shooters. It is mostly a coaching tool. After you leave the flat range - you had better not need it anymore.

Did more typing than I had planned when I started. Peregrino

[Team Sergeant]

[
Recoil is extremely relevant in our profession; rarely do we have the pleasure of facing only one armed adversary.

Airsofters, the US Olympic Shooting team, IPSC shooters all have one thing in common, they will never be in harms way because paper targets don’t shoot back. They practice for and compete in games. The distressing dilemma we face today is that many people that make a living being in harms way have taken lessons from “gamers” and deer hunters.

While the best IPSC shooter in the world might make one an impressive shot, the improper application of tactics in a real world fight will get one killed as fast as a knife fighter in a gun fight. I have witnessed, first hand, world class IPSC shooters engaging paper targets, utilizing movement techniques to close with their targets that would get one killed stone cold dead in a “real” fight.

You do not send an A-Team to hunt for a bank robber; you do not send a four man local sheriff team to hunt an unknown number of heavily armed terrorists. LEO’s do not take this as an insult, we merely have different ROE and different training. Most state, local and federal agencies cannot afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on individual shooting skills, US Special Operations can and does. (I sleep well at night knowing the local LEO’s stand guard in my current AO.)

If it’s your desire to punch paper by all means take lessons from an IPSC shooter, want to deer hunt, read deer hunting magazines and take lessons from deer hunters.

If it is your desire to keep America safe and place bad people behind bars become an LEO, they live in harms way each and every day.

If you desire to keep the world a safer place, try out for one of the many SOF positions available in today’s military.

De Oppresso Liber

Team Sergeant

[Team Sergeant]

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

What do you think would happen given a large caliber handgun, say, .45. and using ONLY two fingers (thumb and middle finger actually) to hold the grip and one other to pull the trigger, what do you think a five shot group would look like at say 15-20 feet?

Instructors?

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

[The Reaper]

You can't stop recoil. It is a mechanical function.

Your job is to align the barrel with the target, release a projectile cleanly, and recover as quickly as possible to repeat as needed.

TR

[Peregrino]

That's why pistol marksmanship fundamentals start with stance and grip and end with follow-through and recovery. (Advanced shooting modifies stance to read "shooting platform" 'cause you're supposed to be moving.) These principles prepare you to shoot the first target and "enable" you to make followup shots on the original target or transition to a new one. All four principles prepare you to deal with recoil. Peregrino

[Roguish Lawyer]

So, what did you get for the TS? :D

It is not ready yet. Great things take time. I am sure he will post photos when he gets it.

[Roguish Lawyer]

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

I am so proud. :D

[The Reaper]

It is not ready yet. Great things take time. I am sure he will post photos when he gets it.

Like the Oban?

TR

[lksteve]

What do you think would happen given a large caliber handgun, say, .45. and using ONLY two fingers (thumb and middle finger actually) to hold the grip and one other to pull the trigger, what do you think a five shot group would look like at say 15-20 feet?[/COLOR]seems to me that the methodology you suggest would best be left in novels about pistol dueling in the eighteenth century...time between shots would be a second or more and the group would be...well, it would rather large for twenty feet...probably the size of a standard silouette target...of course that is dependent on the rate of fire...if one tried to force a round per second using that grip, the sky's the limit...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Like the Oban?

TR

Good point. But there is still time. I am assuming that the right occasion has not yet presented itself. :munchin

[Peregrino]

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

What do you think would happen given a large caliber handgun, say, .45. and using ONLY two fingers (thumb and middle finger actually) to hold the grip and one other to pull the trigger, what do you think a five shot group would look like at say 15-20 feet?

Instructors?

(Warning: Do not try this technique with a real handgun and bullets as Serious injury or death can occur! Warning!)

Actually I have performed this STUNT (that's exactly what it is/was) as a confidence demonstration for students who had been brainwashed/terrified by a previous "instructor" or "Walter Mittie" gun writer pushing a 9mm agenda. This was a pretty common occurance when the initial arguments in favor of the M9 were being fielded. It goes a long way towards dispelling the myths about the "awesome" uncontrollable recoil of the 1911. Group size was respectable. I did NOT have the students repeat the demonstration. I would not recommend attempting this with a magnum revolver. Thankfully, real world experience and more credible instructors and gun writers/gurus are restoring the .45's popularity with the general populace so this is no longer the problem/perception it was.

I also remember Paul Poole in the late 70's at Mott Lake shooting a 1911 held upside down in a loose (but controlled) grip and manipulating the trigger with his pinky (little finger). He shot very respectably and it didn't matter how he held the pistol. Recoil control (follow-through and recovery) does not require a "death grip". It does require paying attention and mastering some basic principles.

Will an inadequate/incorrect grip allow anyone to fire as rapidly and accurately as a proper grip/stance? Will it adequately control recoil? Emphatically NO! Is it recomended? Again - NO. That's why TS highlighted his warnings. All shooters should concentrate on assuming a "combat stance" (aggressive is the shortest description), firm high grip, getting adequate support from the non-firing hand (whenever possible), achieving a frontsight focus, executing a controlled squeeze of the trigger, and riding the front sight back into the target so you can repeat as required until the threat isn't there any more.

Nowhere in the previous discussions are tactics included! This is just one step in a series of steps to gain marksmanship proficiency as you work towards becoming combat effective. FWIW.

Next! :munchin Peregrino

[frostfire]

Win, win - if you're right and you don't draw fire we learn and you collect positive points. If you're right but you do draw fire, time to work on your delivery. If you're wrong - we get entertained and you learn a valuable lesson. *deep breathing....gulp*
Recoil control (follow-through and recovery) does not require a "death grip". It does require paying attention and mastering some basic principles.
natural point of aim exercises...?

[Peregrino]

*deep breathing....gulp* natural point of aim exercises...?

Short answers. Natural point of aim contributes to precision marksmanship. A couple of points to keep in mind:

1. Natural POA implies standing flatfooted and using a traditional stance. Get in stance, close eyes, point gun, open eyes, shift feet to put gun on target, repeat as required. Ask TS what he thinks of the idea. (I'll save you some effort - If somebody is shooting back at you, it's suicide.)

2. Combat marksmanship is based on a series of "range rings" depending on weapon type. Pistols are usually (YMMV) < 7 meters, between 7 and 15 meters and > 15 meters. Each distance will have tradeoff between speed and accuracy. As range increases you lose speed to gain accuracy. Close range uses a "flash" sight picture and "aimed quick kill". Find the front sight, put it in the target's abdomen (with just front sight bullets strike high), and start pulling the trigger. Intermediate range uses "rapid aimed fire". This is a compromise sight picture - ensure both sights are visible, align left/right, don't worry excessively about up/down (kill zone is taller than it is wide), and pull the trigger. Long range (no room for error) uses "slow aimed fire" - proper sight alignment/sight picture and application of marksmanship fundamentals. Speed and the amount of time available/required for acceptable accuracy is relative. That doesn't mean you are doing anything "slowly"; it just means that compared to short and intermediate range shooting, you are taking more time to ensure the more difficult shot. Gunfight statistics show 1st round hit wins 80+% of gunfights. 1st round miss wins less than 50%. There is more to this but I have to go get the pizza for dinner.

Now that I'm back from pizza - edited to add:

3. If you're worried about Natural POA one of two things applies:
a. You're not in a gunfight. Relax, enjoy your day at the range, and work on developing the skills that make the pistol an extension of your will.
b. You're using a pistol to engage a threat at rifle/carbine ranges. Look for another solution, especially if the other guy has a long gun. The time you spend trying to make a low percentage shot can be better used seeking cover, evading, calling reinforcements, etc.

Deep breathing has nothing to do with good shooting - hyperventilate on your own time. ;) Peregrino

[AngelsSix]

You guys mind if I throw something out there?? Muscle memory is important. Training with a new gun is going to take time for your muscles to adjust (especially with a larger caliber).

Two very important things I learned with a very competant instructor (ahem!! I won't mention any names :D ) was that someone who truly knows how to shoot, understands the mechanics of shooting and knows what you are doing wrong just by looking at the placement (or Not) of your shots is the one key to shooting success.

I fired the requal for my 9mm a coupls of weeks ago. Now I typically train indoors, and never fire more that 15 feet. We fired for requal on a windy day, outside, in the blazing sun. It is usually dark and still in the range where I practice.
I learned to work on making each shot count, not the group as a whole, because like it has been mentioned, once you can call the individual shots, they come together as a whole. For the first time in three years, I qualified expert. The male next to me couldn't understand why he didn't do well. I told him exactly what he was doing wrong just by looking at his paper. I also watched him shoot. He was rushing, not keeping his stance even and jerking the trigger. He was all over the paper.

Taking your time and shooting well is always better that spraying bullets downrange and not hitting anything.

GRIP, STANCE, BREATHING, SLOW, SQUEEZE.

[Tubbs]

You guys mind if I throw something out there?? Muscle memory is important. Training with a new gun is going to take time for your muscles to adjust (especially with a larger caliber).

.

I totally agree with this. Muslce memory is very impotant. I spend just as much time at home practiceing popor grip, stance, trigger pull and shot follow up etc. as I do at the range. If its not muscle memeory you will fail to preform the action sucssfully in a high stress situation (I found that out the hard way fortuantely in training... semper pushups...)
If you spend tow hours a week at the range you should spend at least two hours at home, if not more, practicing your technique through dry fire exercises. This is similar to snapping in for a week before going to qual at the rifle range.
Get yourself a big mirror and remeber, slow is smooth and smooth is fast... are you talkin' to me?

[frostfire]

To be clear the first problem occurs with and is exclusive to me shooting my Glock 19 and occurred consistently before the new gun purchase.

I recently purchased a HK USP 45, not in small part to the rave reviews provided by TS. I suck with it. Plain and simple. The week before I bought it I shot hole in hole with a stranger's gold cup on an indoor range.
I'm by no means expert or experienced or live by the gun. However, since I can relate to your endeavours I'd like to share my .02 baht worth of input.

I started out with months of theories before tyring a used 9mm full size USP. I was able to put 10 rounds in a ~.75" hole from 10 feet (yeah I know, lame). All I can remember from that time was gripping very tightly and having muscle fatigue in no time. However, that intro gave me a spark of confidence.
I then shot Glock 19 as well for a while (can't remember why I switched). I dried fired through the fundamentals zillion times w/ it. I did not get consistent group from time to time.
I tried my friend's tricked-out Kimber .45 and shot hole in hole at 5 and 7 yards. Along the way, I also occasionally tried P226, P99, XD, and P239. I suck with 'em except for the P226. I'm hoping to save enough and get P226R one day.
I then moved on to USP compact .40. The last session yielded 1.5"-2.5"-2.75" triangle from 3 rounds at 25 yards, and all rounds touching at 7 yards. Slow fire, ~2 seconds between shots.

I would assume that the USP .45 you bought is full size or tactical. That may be a big change for grip angle, feel, etc. My hands were conditioned to Glock 19 (from all the dry firing) and yet when I transitioned to USP .40, that pistol fit like a glove. No matter how I picked it up, pointed it out at eye level, 2 hands, 1 hand, the sight picture was always perfectly alligned.

My current problem is focus often subconsciously switched from frontsight to the target (both eyes open) as well as the common recurring ones such as slapping/jerking the trigger.

I too, at this point, feel stuck as far as progress goes. I've been thinking of attending basic, practical, and IPSC training class etc. However, when it comes to the shooting skills I covet, I fully and humbly accept TS' adviceIf you desire to keep the world a safer place, try out for one of the many SOF positions available in today’s military.



With all those ramblings aside....in a nutshell, I would suggest you try the USP compact. :)

[Tubbs]

One of the things that I have noticed about this thread is that there seems to be a focus on what type of pistol the individual is using. Weapons familiarity is a good thing, but if you are practice the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship proporly you should be able to pick up any handgun and fire it accurately within its effective range. By accurately I don't mean 1" groups, I mean that out to its max effective range regardless of the type of fire (i.e. advancing, retreating, stationary) you should be able to dump 90-100% of your rounds into a chest sized target.
There are a few exceptions to this rule (I have a norinco tokarev re-chambered for 9mm, that only the son of God could shoot accurately and consistantly with), but shooting accurately reflects more on the individual than on the weapon.
I have a BB gun that I practice with in my back yard on days that I can't make it to the range. I think done appropriately this is also a wonderfull training tool along with dry fire practice.

[Buffalobob]

A very interesting old thread. Lot of effort put into it and some really good information. Seems a shame buried way into the back.

Quantico Shooting Club is going to try and put together a two day session in March on how to shoot different kinds of pistol competition and I think I will give it a try.

[cszakolczai]

can we get into grip some more? Just read this thread and was wondering what grip techniques people employ. I remember talking about this with another QP on the forums and he mentioned various techniques he's seen. The support hand is my major question, where and how you place your support hand in order to achieve maximum control.

[Buffalobob]

You can go to these links and download enough information to keep you occupied for several weeks.

http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/index.html

[cszakolczai]

You can go to these links and download enough information to keep you occupied for several weeks.

http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/index.html

Wow, thank you. Never even knew those existed. Everytime I googled my question all the hits came back with AR15.com and other forums with similar questions. Thank you sir very very much appreciated.

[dr. mabuse]

*

[Team Sergeant]

Here's a picture that TS posted awhile back regarding a proper grip.

Works very,very well and if TS using it, well...nuf said. ;)

Hey hey hey!!! It's ten bucks for anyone that looked at the grip!

[nmap]

Not that I would ever look at a certain grip which must remain nameless...but it seemed to work well on a SIG 239. Or does it need to be used mainly on full-sized pistols such as the USP?

[uplink5]

Hey hey hey!!! It's ten bucks for anyone that looked at the grip!

Here ya go TS...TEN BUCKS


egads........the boss sure drives a hard bargain....:boohoo

[dr. mabuse]

*

[cszakolczai]

A bargain @ $10.

Though it's gonna cost me a second mortgage. How many thousands of students have seen an in class demo of "the grip" since first seen here. :D

thank you for the picture sir, definitely helps a lot as well. And along with the information BB linked me to I have all my questions answered.

And in that case I guess I owe you 10 bucks TS. I guess I have a reason to make it out to SHOT now. :)

thank you again gentleman.

[PSM]

I have an HK USPc .45. My hands are on the, male, small side, but I found that, from the first dry-fire practice, my support hand index finger grabbed the recurve to bring my support hand fully onto the pistol grip. I've never been trained to do that, it was instinctual. The last time shooting at 21', outdoors, I had a clover leafish hole as seen from the back of the cardboard. It looked like one hole from the front.

ETA: That was 4 shots. The first, DA, was an inch Northwest of dead center. The other three, SA, were at about 4 o'clock and 2 or 2 1/2 inches.

Pat

[Team Sergeant]

Here ya go TS...TEN BUCKS


egads........the boss sure drives a hard bargain....:boohoo

LOL, [bastards.]

[WholeManin2010]

Hey hey hey!!! It's ten bucks for anyone that looked at the grip!

Plenty more where this came from if you're willing to learn us more, TS...

[cbtengr]

You are in good company, 99.5% of the people that shoot handguns don’t really understand pistol marksmanship. Most understand enough to be very dangerous. (Which makes me happy in some respects; I know the bad guys are relying on pure luck when they start a gunfight…) Yes, I said 99.5%.

TS

As one of the 99.5 that TS refers to I found this thread to be full of very useful info. The OP goes all the way back to July of 05 and refers to a "neophyte" which upon looking up the definition of neophyte I have determined that I fall within that definition in regards to pistol marksmanship.

I have read all the posts twice and visited the various links that were included and I down loaded the FM 3-23.35. In the near future I will be seeking formal training and a mentor as some of you have suggested.

But in the meantime I have come across a lot of “You Tube” videos that deal with marksmanship, now we all know that “You Tube” is full of a lot of useless videos that contain a lot of erroneous info. As a true neophyte incapable of sorting the wheat from the chaff regarding pistol marksmanship I call upon you all’s expertise as to any “You Tube” videos that you think are worthy of watching. I know they cannot all be worthless. For those of you that have contributed so much to this thread, THANKS!

[frostfire]

As one of the 99.5 that TS refers to I found this thread to be full of very useful info. The OP goes all the way back to July of 05 and refers to a "neophyte" which upon looking up the definition of neophyte I have determined that I fall within that definition in regards to pistol marksmanship.

I have read all the posts twice and visited the various links that were included and I down loaded the FM 3-23.35. In the near future I will be seeking formal training and a mentor as some of you have suggested.

But in the meantime I have come across a lot of “You Tube” videos that deal with marksmanship, now we all know that “You Tube” is full of a lot of useless videos that contain a lot of erroneous info. As a true neophyte incapable of sorting the wheat from the chaff regarding pistol marksmanship I call upon you all’s expertise as to any “You Tube” videos that you think are worthy of watching. I know they cannot all be worthless. For those of you that have contributed so much to this thread, THANKS!

very simple. Run youtube query search on Paul Howe, Dave Harrington, Kyle Lamb, Frank Proctor, etc.

Then find clips of Rogers shooting school stages. Put on big screen tv and compensate for the lack of depth perception. Put a wad of paper in front of ejector if you use M&P or Glock so you don't have to cycle the slide each time. No need to do this if you're using Walther PPQ, SIG DA, HK DA, revolver, etc . Call your shot with each iteration and see if you can run them stages with smooth precision under the time limit.

Then buy a ticket to Arizona to train with the TS:D

[Streck-Fu]

very simple. Run youtube query search on Paul Howe, Dave Harrington, Kyle Lamb, Frank Proctor, etc.

Also look at Panteao Production (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/instructors) as Paul Howe, Dave Harrington, Bill Rogers, et al. have collaborated with the production company to produce training course that are available online.

While no replacement for a live fire course with the instructor it can be a good introduction, primer, or refresher.

[Team Sergeant]

very simple. Run youtube query search on Paul Howe, Dave Harrington, Kyle Lamb, Frank Proctor, etc.

Then find clips of Rogers shooting school stages. Put on big screen tv and compensate for the lack of depth perception. Put a wad of paper in front of ejector if you use M&P or Glock so you don't have to cycle the slide each time. No need to do this if you're using Walther PPQ, SIG DA, HK DA, revolver, etc . Call your shot with each iteration and see if you can run them stages with smooth precision under the time limit.

Then buy a ticket to Arizona to train with the TS:D

Dave Harrington still owes me a case of beer......:munchin

[Penn]

Recently, I purchased 10 -13 round clips to enhance a sale for a Glock 21, I wish to sell.

The clips seemed to have been shaved, or worn to the point, that they can be removed simply by jerking the pistol downward, otherwise they remain in place and load rounds into the chamber.

My question is whether or not this is a positive, with relation to reloading?

[The Reaper]

Recently, I purchased 10 -13 round clips to enhance a sale for a Glock 21, I wish to sell.

The clips seemed to have been shaved, or worn to the point, that they can be removed simply by jerking the pistol downward, otherwise they remain in place and load rounds into the chamber.

My question is whether or not this is a positive, with relation to reloading?

IMHO, a magazine release should retain the mag 100% of the time you want to retain the mag, and release it smoothly, but only when you have positively moved to drop the mag.

If you are indicating that it is not reliably retained and you can inadvertently release the mag, then you have an issue with either the mags, or the mag release or its spring. I would not be comfortable even using those mags for training, much less concealed carry.

There are a bunch of movements that could apparently cause the mag to drop on its own, and that is not functioning as the designer intended, nor is it conducive to a long life.

I would consider the pistol to be unsafe until I either eliminated the mag release or the mags as the problem, and remedied it before selling the weapon to someone else.

TR

[Penn]

TR, Thank you.