View Full Version : F-ing FBI
BMT (RIP)
06-10-2005, 07:18
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SEPT_11_MISSED_OPPORTUNITIES?SITE=NCFAY&SECTION=HOME
:munchin
BMT
A perfect example of Monday Morning quarterbacking. :o
I doubt if there is/was a single person in the U.S. who would have thought of an operation of the type and scope of 9/11. Of course, NOW everyone does. The indications were hijacking. Until this event hijackers had other purposes in mind than suicide. The procedure was to safely talk/negotiate the plane to the ground.
The FBI blew it but I don't believe anyone would have acted differently BEFORE the incident.
Honestly think of what you would say if prior to 911 someone told you that four airliners would be simultaneously taken over and flown into the WTC and the Pentagon. I would have probably have asked when the movie was coming out.
Our intelligence needed/needs revamping but give credit to a crafty enemy who thinks up totally new and unexpected tactics. OBL wanted to bring down the WTC so bad that this was his second attempt.
Bill Harsey
06-10-2005, 09:15
I know the man who about 10 years ago was invited to brief the Mayor and Police Chief (and staffs) of New York City, in the mayors own office and told them the greatest terrorism risk they faced was from a hijacked aircraft being flown into their tall buildings. The trade centers were not named.
He was laughed out of the room.
I'm probably sealing my fate to be the laughing stock of this forum by posting this.
Tom Clancy wrote a book called "Debt of Honor" in which this scenario played out against the capitol building. The news had reported about 2 weeks after the 9-11 attacks that Clancy was being interviewed to see what he had known before the attack on the Pentagon and WTC.
Believe me, it's been thought about and asymetric think tanks are a booming buisness because of 9-11.
Maybe PVT Snuffy won't be laughed at when he says "all a terrorist needs to do is infect himself with a communicable disease and fly around touching and coughing on people."
If you have an idea there is a way to refine it to an effective means.
Bill Harsey
06-10-2005, 09:49
I'm probably sealing my fate to be the laughing stock of this forum by posting this.
Tom Clancy wrote a book called "Debt of Honor" in which this scenario played out against the capitol building. The news had reported about 2 weeks after the 9-11 attacks that Clancy was being interviewed to see what he had known before the attack on the Pentagon and WTC.
Believe me, it's been thought about and asymetric think tanks are a booming buisness because of 9-11.
Maybe PVT Snuffy won't be laughed at when he says "all a terrorist needs to do is infect himself with a communicable disease and fly around touching and coughing on people."
If you have an idea there is a way to refine it to an effective means.
I remember something about Clancey getting interviewed because of that book.
[QUOTE]Believe me, it's been thought about and asymetric think tanks are a booming buisness because of 9-11. [?QUOTE]
Agreed it has been thought about but most gave it as much seriousness as James Bond or Star Wars.; The key to the above quote IMHO is "becausse of 911"
I have to say that the danger from OBL isn't constant terrorism. The man is IMHO a genious at innovation, planing, training and execution. It was about 7-8 years between attempts to drop the WTC,
I would predict that his next operation will be something completely different and as such unexpected. He needs to be taken out of the equation. It probably won't stop day to day terrorism but it may prevent more devastating and unexpected strikes. :munchin
QRQ 30
I agree partly with your observation of my post.
My intent was to state that the man that Mr. Harsey was referring to was not the only one to think of this scenario playing out. That man was in a position to be listened to and was ignored and heckled for his thoughts.
We all know that Tom Clancy tends to be overly dramatic and add fluff to his stories, but his stories have some sliver of truth to them. Mr. Clancy published this book in 1994. 1 year after the first WTC attempt and 7 before the big one.
Now with looking at the timeline you posted, do you think that OBL/UBL could've gotten an idea from this? No conspiracy theory, just an observation.
My biggest point to take away from this is that these threats have been thought of before and ignored. Clancy put it in the written word and it was taken lightly because it was a fictional portrayal. But ultimately it was ignored and people act as if this was some fluke idea that made it to fruition.
There are only few things that are impossible in this world. I think that since our blinders have been smacked off of our faces we should take that as a sign of the times and be a little less conformist like our enemy. You yourself have spoke of adaptability in countering the enemy by emulating their lifestyles and habits. How soon America forgets that.
My biggest point to take away from this is that these threats have been thought of before and ignored. Clancy put it in the written word and it was taken lightly because it was a fictional portrayal. But ultimately it was ignored and people act as if this was some fluke idea that made it to fruition.
This is absolutely true. I say don't lay it specifically on the FBI or some other intelligence agency. I would think UBL probably read the book or maybe Clancy real his mind. IMO if the FBI had come out with this theory they would not have been taken too seriously. Just look at the reactions to the over-flight alerts. Everyone in power was criticised for sounding false alarms.
Can you imagine the furor if the airporsts had suddenly started doing 100% searches and taking away anything that could be used as a weapon?
Personally, I think they should take everything from passengers ans issue hospital scrubs to wear -- punkt!!
This is absolutely true. I say don't lay it specifically on the FBI or some other intelligence agency. I would think UBL probably read the book or maybe Clancy real his mind. IMO if the FBI had come out with this theory they would not have been taken too seriously. Just look at the reactions to the over-flight alerts. Everyone in power was criticised for sounding false alarms.
Can you imagine the furor if the airporsts had suddenly started doing 100% searches and taking away anything that could be used as a weapon?
Personally, I think they should take everything from passengers ans issue hospital scrubs to wear -- punkt!!
Very true, it's nice to see someone else on the same sheet. :D
It is true that you can only cry wolf so much.
[QUOTE=QRQ 30]
Can you imagine the furor if the airporsts had suddenly started doing 100% searches and taking away anything that could be used as a weapon?
QUOTE]
I can't carry knives or anything that is looked at as being an offensive tool. I do however buy a Time magazine everytime I fly. Anyone who has the strength to roll one of those can smack the snot out of someone.
The masses would freak if they were able to see what an average person is capable of when frightened and cornered. I hate flying for that reason, mass hysteria in confined spaces is not my idea of a fun time.
I read this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006054354X/qid=1118491566/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2750579-2092932) book a couple weeks ago. The amount of leads and information that was ignored or not followed up on is disturbing to say the least.
The author places most of the blame with the FBI, but the CIA, DSS, NSC, INS and the State Department all screwed the pooch.
They could have uncovered this plot if they would have taken terrorism more seriously prior to 9/11. That is what we pay them for.
Perhaps Sigi is correct but I still feel that if this plot had been uncovered and presented to someone who could do something about it they would have been laughed off of the planet.
Let's don't put all of the blame on our security when the population in general was lethargic and seems to be returning to that condition. There was no Patriot Act prior to 0/11.
Cincinnatus
06-11-2005, 08:15
Terry,
Read "1,000 Years for Revenge" it's a real eye opener. Actually, if you have any BP issues, don't read it! I was so upset that I must have set it down a dozen times.
One of the sub themes/ story threads is about a guy, IIRC, named Ronny Buca who was a reserve SF soldier and active FDNY inspector. He died in the Towers trying to save others. He had put most of the plot together, w/o access to classified data, had tried repeatedly to get something done and was rebuffed and ignored.
Another story thread is about a female FBI agent who had a good source whose intel was ignored and mishandled, as he tried to warn of elements of the plot. This is NOT the female FBI agent in MN, but one in the NY office.
The FBI screwed the pooch on this one.
CoLawman
06-11-2005, 08:30
I'm not so sure that the Title to this forum "F-ing FBI" is appropriate. The FBI has extensive successes against the Scum who perpetrate terrorism. The WTC bombing, Lockerbie, etc. Negatively labeling them as a result of Kangaroo court findings is unfair.
I apologize for being a little sensitive in this area. But law enforcement all too often is criticized by the press and special interest groups to the detriment of those dedicated to their mission.
Terry,
Read "1,000 Years for Revenge" it's a real eye opener. Actually, if you have any BP issues, don't read it! I was so upset that I must have set it down a dozen times.
One of the sub themes/ story threads is about a guy, IIRC, named Ronny Buca who was a reserve SF soldier and active FDNY inspector. He died in the Towers trying to save others. He had put most of the plot together, w/o access to classified data, had tried repeatedly to get something done and was rebuffed and ignored.
Another story thread is about a female FBI agent who had a good source whose intel was ignored and mishandled, as he tried to warn of elements of the plot. This is NOT the female FBI agent in MN, but one in the NY office.
The FBI screwed the pooch on this one.
NOPE!! As far as I am concerned a lethargic american society was to blame. Sometimes I think our national bird should be the ostrich who sticks his head in the sand so he won't be bothered by the dangers around him.
In your own words people were re-buffed and ignored. We don't want to be bothered. We just need to have a herd of scape goats to put the blame on!!
Had a president tried to enact the provisions of the Patriot Act prior to 9/11 he would have lost. God knows there is enough resistance now.
This happens frequently. How many times have you heard of a suicide or Columbine styly or Post Office massacre only to find that the signs were there all along but only recognized after the fact?
NousDefionsDoc
06-11-2005, 08:44
I'm not so sure that the Title to this forum "F-ing FBI" is appropriate. The FBI has extensive successes against the Scum who perpetrate terrorism. The WTC bombing, Lockerbie, etc. Negatively labeling them as a result of Kangaroo court findings is unfair.
I apologize for being a little sensitive in this area. But law enforcement all too often is criticized by the press and special interest groups to the detriment of those dedicated to their mission.
Perhaps, but we are discussing the F-ing FBI, not law enforcement.
You consider the results of the WTC bombing and Lockerbie incident successes?
Let's dance....
CoLawman
06-11-2005, 13:06
Perhaps, but we are discussing the F-ing FBI, not law enforcement.
You consider the results of the WTC bombing and Lockerbie incident successes?
Let's dance....
Not a graceful dancer so I apologize if I happen to step on your toes :D
I consider both Investigations conducted into Lockerbie and WTC to be successes.
It was through the efforts of the FBI that the perps involved in Lockerbie were identified and directly linked to Libya.
It was also through the combined efforts of the FBI and NYPD that the perps involved in the WTC bombing were identified and arrested, prosecuted and convicted.
I might add in further support of my previous post that it was the FBI that successfully investigated the Oklahoma City Bombing, thus holding responsible the Domestic terrorists responsible.
The FBI's investigative abilities are unmatched anywhere in the world when it comes to investigating "APE", "Brush Fires", and Politically sensitive cases.
The FBI is the Pinnacle of Law Enforcement .
The FBI lost many on September 11th and during the Oklahoma City bombing. You don't often hear much about their losses as they were overshadowed by NYPD/NYFD losses.
I understand this post was about the FBI and that is why I responded. Go to a law enforcement site with forums and you will find no derogatory postings regarding our military. Just the opposite. In law enforcement cops are universally referred to as "Our Finest". We in law enforcement know that "Our Finest" are those who serve in the military and we stay home to protect "Our Finest's" families.
Using the findings of that report to conclude the FBI is inept is no more valid than saying past failures by the military supports a generalization of ineptness.
Hmmmmmmm.....don't believe I stepped on your toes. Thank you for the tango!
Prester John
06-11-2005, 14:02
I might add in further support of my previous post that it was the FBI that successfully investigated the Oklahoma City Bombing, thus holding responsible the Domestic terrorists responsible.
The FBI's investigative abilities are unmatched anywhere in the world when it comes to investigating "APE", "Brush Fires", and Politically sensitive cases.
The FBI is the Pinnacle of Law Enforcement .
The FBI lost many on September 11th and during the Oklahoma City bombing. You don't often hear much about their losses as they were overshadowed by NYPD/NYFD losses.
Not to cut in, but I'm not sure that the FBI wasn't partially responsible for the scope of the OKC bombing. Their investigation has many indications of a coverup.
McVeigh certainly didn't expect his truck to have the effect it did. Long story short... he was a very bad guy, but not as culpable as the FBI would have enjoyed painting him. Certainly not trying to defend him.
The FBI as the pinnacle of law enforcement is frightening. Especially regarding their egredgious errors in judgement and protocol at Ruby Ridge and Waco.
EDIT: I am not trying to play the alarmist or stir up an anger fueled argument. I am simply stating a few alternate viewpoints I have read that seem pretty well researched. While the FBI may be elite, they are certainly not without blemish.
I It was also through the combined efforts of the FBI and NYPD that the perps involved in the WTC bombing were identified and arrested, prosecuted and convicted.
The only issue I have with the WTC Bombing investigation is the mishandling of information and leads that could have and should have prevented 9/11. The FBI may be the pinnacle of LE, but their supervisors and SAIC's are preventing the men and women on the street from having more success. Hopefully this has changed, but I doubt it.
I have a 5 family members in LE and there are times when I am critical of LE in general. I also very loyally defend them.
In this case I may not know all the facts, but if half of what is written in 1000 Years for Revenge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006054354X/qid%3D1118491566/sr%3D2-1/ref%3Dpd%5Fbbs%5Fb%5F2%5F1/002-6995308-3079201) is true, they do not get any slack from me.
My .02
The FBI is the Pinnacle of Law Enforcement .
Thank God I have a new 3volt in the pacemaker or this little gem would have sent me home !!!!!
Having worked with all of the Federal Agencies to a great extent, I can honestly say that the FBI is, without a doubt, NOT the pinnacle of Law Enforcement. In fact I have a hard time thinking of them as a true Law Enforcement agency at all.
You stated It was also through the combined efforts of the FBI and NYPD that the perps involved in the WTC bombing were identified and arrested, prosecuted and convicted - yep, that was a tough one.... especially since they were the same "perps" that murdered Rabbi Mier Khani in NY a short time before, were all interviewed, never left NY City, and then cranked off the VBIED inside the WTC. If I remember correctly it was the NYPD that wanted to look further into the murder and were told by said "pinnacle agency" - nope, only a lone gunman acting here...
Would a "pinnacle" Agency put out "Terrorist Alerts" for foreign Nationals - some of whom were in Federal custody already, identify an Egyptian Nationals shooting spree at the LA EL AL counter as a "work incident" for over a year - finally changing this to a terrorism act, misidentify an American lawers finger prints as being on a bag of blasting caps connected to the Madrid bombing, give back to a defendant his computer - still containing classified info for which he is being prosecuted?????? These a but of few of this "pinnacle agencies" stellar success stories of late.......... I'm sure a plethora of others can be brought up.
Look, I know some damn fine people that work for the FBI, but your organization as a whole is fast becoming irrelevant - and that is scary, not only to them but more importantly to me. I say your because you've identified yourself as law enforcement, and no "local" I know would ever make that "pinnacle" statement - it just seems to smack of NA arrogance. What the FBI could be, is, and what they think they are, are three vastly -and I mean night and day - different things.
I have more faith in what NY is doing today, as are other PD's - developing their own intel pool and sourcing from the ground up - in other countries as is seen fit.
Real time, actionable intel is the key to survival for us, and I for one am still waiting to see my first piece from said "pinnacle" agency.
BMT (RIP)
06-11-2005, 17:31
I think one of the biggest problems right now is alot of people put thier political party before the JOB!!!
BMT
Trip_Wire (RIP)
06-11-2005, 17:33
I must agree with what Casey had to say about the FBI! :munchin
I'm just not so quick to condemn and call any agency "f***ing".
In my youth the FBI, or all G-Men were the epitome of law enforcement. Somewhere the agencies became diluted. J. Edgar Hoover was america's law man. Then, somewhere around the seventies, the lefties, the ACLU, and the likes of Gentleman Jimmy Carter decided that law enforcement had become too powerful and were infringing upon our civil rights. Through the democratic process, America apparently agreed. That is how I base my statement that "American society screwed the pooch." We got what we thought we wanted and now that things are screwed up we blame the very people whom we de-fanged.
CoLawman
06-11-2005, 22:07
Point to Casey!
My opinion of the FBI does not diminish the respect I have for NYPD and other Local agencies. My sin was using a term that was not appropriate. Pinnacle was not the proper term and you were right to call me on it. They have all the agents with talent, capability, and dedication to rise to the top. It is those individuals that I was defending. I fully understand how the administration hamstrings the agent in the field. I also believe that those instances you cite are the bi-product of the higher echelons than I was defending. Example: Janet Reno and Louie Freeh.
By the way Casey I'm not a NA grad. Never had any aspirations of kicking the adrenalin highs by getting promoted out of police work.
Okay now that I have surrendered I can't leave without the last word. WACO, RUBY RIDGE, OKC Bombing conspiracy????? Give me a break! Sheeesh!
CoLawman
06-11-2005, 22:12
I'm just not so quick to condemn and call any agency "f***ing".
In my youth the FBI, or all G-Men were the epitome of law enforcement. Somewhere the agencies became diluted. J. Edgar Hoover was america's law man. Then, somewhere around the seventies, the lefties, the ACLU, and the likes of Gentleman Jimmy Carter decided that law enforcement had become too powerful and were infringing upon our civil rights. Through the democratic process, America apparently agreed. That is how I base my statement that "American society screwed the pooch." We got what we thought we wanted and now that things are screwed up we blame the very people whom we de-fanged.
I wish I had written this instead of my original post.
NousDefionsDoc
06-11-2005, 22:38
Just my personal opinion, but:
1. I don't think the FBI had a clue as to who was behind the WTC bombing until 9-12.
2. I still don't think they know who was behind the OKC bombing.
3. I don't think they caught half the people involved in the Lockerbie incident.
4. I don't think they have a role in the CT business.
5. I know they have no business working overseas.
They may be very good at something - CT ain't it.
Prester John
06-12-2005, 00:56
Okay now that I have surrendered I can't leave without the last word. WACO, RUBY RIDGE, OKC Bombing conspiracy????? Give me a break! Sheeesh!
I wouldn't call conscious disregard for protocol resulting in many dead non-combatants to be a "conspiracy theory".
I'm probably more of a warhawk than most, but I guess growing up in TX with a steady diet of The New American can do that to you. I tend to agree with NDD, even though I know several VERY competant FBI agents.
Point to Casey!
Okay now that I have surrendered I can't leave without the last word. WACO, RUBY RIDGE, OKC Bombing conspiracy????? Give me a break! Sheeesh!
Your last word was misdirected - I never mentioned these instances.
And like QRQ 30, I don't sit and say f*** them - it actually worse than that - I now choose to ignore them. Not because of personal feeling or bias but simply put I have lost all confidence in their ability to HELP.
I'm in total agreement with you CoLawman They have all the agents with talent, capability, and dedication to rise to the top. It is those individuals that I was defending. - however, they're organization has developed a case of terminal mission creep and those individuals are all dragged along. They really do have one of the finest investigative arms in the world today - unfortunately thats where it ends, as information is kept tightly within their own system. Why ? My personal feelings is that they have attempted within the decade, to move from an adminsitrative investigative and charging function to an operations mode in EVERY spectrum of law enforcement - a hat they clearly don't wear well.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't give a rats ass how talented, capable, or dedicated you are at any agency, when you become the keeper of and impediment to the gathering and timely dessimination of actionable intel, then in todays environment you have become irrelevant - and other Law Enforcement Agencies will move on, and away from you.
Smokin Joe
06-12-2005, 07:24
FBI:
Good capable front line staff.
REALLY bad politically motivated adminstration and supervision.
Just my .02 cents
FBI:
Good capable front line staff.
REALLY bad politically motivated adminstration and supervision.
Just my .02 cents
Good Post Joe.
CoLawman
06-12-2005, 11:48
[QUOTE=casey]Your last word was misdirected - I never mentioned these instances.
Casey, this last word was directed toward Prester John. And in response to Prester John, David Koresh was responsible for the deaths of those civilians.
1. My opinions are based on their abilities as an Investigative entity. Remove the impediments of Intelligence issues, CIA concerns, and Political concerns and my argument about their elitist position in law enforcement should seem well grounded.
2. It is obvious that they are under attack in their Intelligence capabilities. But then again the CIA always had the corner on this market. The FBI and Military Intelligence were always bit players in this arena. And any attempts for them to improve their lot was hindered by the CIA. I believe this was one of the major improvements being sought by the Patriot Act. Sharing of information.
Even today that government is seeking to appoint an outsider to name the new Intelligence chief for the FBI. Reeks of McNamara running the Viet Nam war.
In todays newspaper there is an article about how the CIA is involved in a local assault case. Unbelievable. Interesting reading and display of power. www.greeleytrib.com
I defer to your much more informed and studied thoughts on their Intel abilities.
CoLawman
06-12-2005, 12:28
I wouldn't call conscious disregard for protocol resulting in many dead non-combatants to be a "conspiracy theory".
I'm probably more of a warhawk than most, but I guess growing up in TX with a steady diet of The New American can do that to you. I tend to agree with NDD, even though I know several VERY competant FBI agents.
Some random thoughts about your posts.
1. There are very radical opinions out there on most subjects. Much has been written about Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the OKC. The conclusions seem well researched and supported by evidence. That does not make the conclusion factual. The conspiracy theorists are still working on new publications on the deaths of RFK, JFK, and MLK. It will never end. Even in my venue no homicide I ever worked has satisfied everyone.
2. Every time someone is killed by the result of government actions, military or LE there is a vast population of people who find fault. These people are anti American. A perfect example is Guantanamo Bay. These are killers of the worst kind. Yet daily we read about how their Koran was urinated on or kicked around.
These critics never say a word about the actions taken by these individuals that placed them in prison.
3. I applaud your enlisting in the military and setting your goals high. But realize as soon as you put that uniform on you have become one of us. And the ultra right believe you are part of a mass conspiracy to disarm America, part of the New World Order, and a puppet. This is the ultra right that has shaped your opinion about Waco and other mentioned incidents. The ultraleft dislike you because you are the tip of the spear that is part of American Emperialism. I have found it best to be very discerning when reading anything published by the aforementioned ultra. READ it question it.
4. Michael Moore probably didn't have it right with his documentary. David Koresh and Jones did not have it right with their vision either. Totally extreme political leanings.
5. The fact you label yourself as "more of a warhawk than most" is probably accurate. As you would certainly be in the minority being a warhawk.
AngelsSix
06-15-2005, 20:35
BOISE, Idaho -- A longtime FBI agent who helped arrest mountain-man Claude Dallas and was involved in a deadly 1984 siege involving white supremacists in Washington state is going to prison for a year after pleading guilty to possession of child pornography.
Here's the rest of the story (http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?tl=1&display=rednews/2005/06/14/build/nation/82-fbi-agent.inc)