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NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2005, 12:45
http://www.infantry.army.mil/combatives/

Check out the video

booker
05-15-2005, 13:09
Very educational as well. Implementation to all units may be difficult though (i.e. not just combat arms units)...

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2005, 13:27
Why?

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2005, 13:37
http://www.moderncombatives.org/pages/1/

booker
05-15-2005, 13:41
Don't view my comment as an argument against it, far from it. For a long time I wanted combatives to be an integrative part of the training that my unit received, but being a bean counter in an ammo unit put us low on the list for this training (as told to me by my Grp commander during a question and answer session). Not only is it an important skill for all soldiers to have a working knowledge of, it provides quite a workout too (which is definitely needed in a lot of units). That is what I meant by implementation (FWIW)

Martin
05-15-2005, 13:59
I like this. A lot.

Here's FM 3-25.150 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html).

Basenshukai
05-15-2005, 14:13
Why?

For the same reason COSCOM doesn't teach Advanced Marksmanship to their soldiers. Lack of proper command emphasis.

BTW:

I was a student of Larson's program when it first started and it was a "kick-ass" program even then. I'm glad to see that it has gone as far as this. He is largely responsible for making this program what it is today. We need to see this become part of mandatory unit training just like basic rifle marksmanship.

Until then, squad leaders can emmulate what many SF Team Sergeants have done and implement it on their own small unit training program (as opposed to letting "Joe" go back to the barracks to play X-Box until something comes up during duty hours).

EarthPig2/75
05-15-2005, 14:20
I specifically like how he implements the program into the daily training, so that it is constant, yet unexpected.
RLTW
EP

Kyobanim
05-15-2005, 16:17
Good stuff for everyone.

I like this. Pretty much says it all,
the winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

The Reaper
05-15-2005, 16:18
Good stuff for everyone.

I like this. Pretty much says it all,
the winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

That was my favorite part as well.

TR

Kyobanim
05-15-2005, 16:23
If someone gets close enough to where you need to take a swing at them then you didn't bring enough bullets.

I hope they're doing continuing education on this. Combatives falls into the "use it or loose it" category. Needs to be part of weekly training.

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2005, 16:27
I'd have to see the whole program to be fair, but I don't really care for it. It's too complicated, especially for level one. Too much, "Do this, and then do this, then move this leg here, then slide..." See what I mean?

I like, "Stop his foot! Gouge his eye! Hit him in the face with entrenching tool! Bronco stomp his head! Move out and draw fire!"

Plus my goal is not to end up sitting on top of him, my goal is to end up standing in a puddle of what was him.

The Reaper
05-15-2005, 16:31
I'd have to see the whole program to be fair, but I don't really care for it. It's too complicated, especially for level one. Too much, "Do this, and then do this, then move this leg here, then slide..." See what I mean?

I like, "Stop his foot! Gouge his eye! Hit him in the face with entrenching tool! Bronco stomp his head! Move out and draw fire!"

Plus my goal is not to end up sitting on top of him, my goal is to end up standing in a puddle of what was him.

Seemed too complicated to me as well.

A man who was trying to remember all of that while being choked out and who hadn't rehearsed regularly would be gone before he remembered what it was he was trying to do.

Looked like it was all BJJ, nothing more on the boxing, stick fighting, etc. that was on the video.

TR

NousDefionsDoc
05-15-2005, 16:42
The funny thing is they have a pic of the Colonel on their website. His philosophy on ground fighting for soldiers was pretty much "Get UP!" I don't really understand why they insist on something new. All they have to do is get Mr. Cestari or Damian Ross or somebody like that to train the trainers, then give them the tapes and copies of Get Tough. Like Cincy said, the O'Neil stuff was designed for the forerunners of today's Ranger Battalions. There are some good guys out there that have kept the stuff alive and would probably be more than happy to teach today's Warriors. I doubt you'll ever see Big O rolling around on the ground for very long or sitting on top of somebody without beating them to a pulp.

Still, we haven't seen the rest of it, and it is definitely better than nothing.

Smokin Joe
05-16-2005, 00:07
Plus my goal is not to end up sitting on top of him, my goal is to end up standing in a puddle of what was him.


Oh I wish I could teach this to my Officers....but NO, "That's to aggressive" Freaking sissies.

Cincinnatus
05-16-2005, 09:04
I wasn't there, so I'm just repeating what I've been told, but "too aggressive" was the complaint or criticism offered against what Carl showed some Army units. I don't know which units, and I don't know if what he showed was any different from what he usually teaches though I suspect he just turned things up a couple of notches (IIRC, they [he and Clint and whomever else went down] did some work with a live blade to show how ineffective some techniques are.)

I personally don't understand this. In an LE environment, where subduing the suspect is the goal, people are innocent until proven guilty, and litigation is an overriding concern, it may be a valid criticism. However, in the context of the military I'd think these would all be secondary or tertiary concerns. Who cares if a Tango gets hurt? Is there some difference in killing a BG by shooting him vs. crushing his throat? I don't see it, myself.

Other, perhpas more valid, concerns are that it's difficult to train combatives without incurring injuries and that troops trained in combatives are more likely to seriously injure others in bar fights and other altercations than those trained in BJJ.

The first is certainly true, but can be largely mitigated with properly designed exercises, equipment, and supervision. (E.g., trainees practice striking each other's arms, rather than necks, to get sense of effectiveness of EOH blows, and use Spar Pros or other striking dummies to train targetting and chin jabs/ face smashes.)

The second, is also valid, but not something that IMHO should determine training priorites. People get hurt in bar fights...BFD. Warn troops that using combative techniques is using deadly force and punish those who do so cavalierly. Perhaps continue to train BJJ because of the benefits in physical conditioning, competitiveness and to provide a less lethal alternative.

My $.02

NousDefionsDoc
05-16-2005, 09:50
I wasn't there, so I'm just repeating what I've been told, but "too aggressive" was the complaint or criticism offered against what Carl showed some Army units.
Before or after 9-11? ;)

Kyobanim
05-16-2005, 11:46
Getting hurt using unarmed combat techniques is part of the learning process. You can't properly apply a joint lock, bar or other dissabling technique without having it done to you and then doing it to a partner in practice. Going through the motions doesn't cut it. You need to learn what amount of force it takes to properly perform the technique, and what is needed for control of the opponent.

You need to hit and be hit, not killing blows but solid contact none the less, just to know what to expect. That's called conditioning.

Takedown and control techniques are something that the military would use in a capture situation. You don't necessarily want to kill everyone. If you're not going to capture them, a good solid jab to the throat will do nicely.

Something I tell the kids:

Hand to hand, no problem. All you'll get is bruises. It's good for you.
Hand to knife, be ready to get cut; possibly pretty bad. Runnings a good choice.
Hand to gun, hope your life insurance is paid up

Cincinnatus
05-16-2005, 12:08
Sneaky,

The comment predated 9-11. Carl's emphatically not PC, though and I think perhaps some officers still are and for that reason hesitate to bring him on to train their troops. Though perhaps Clint and Damian, young clean cut studs that they are, might be more palatable.

Kyobanim,

I agree completely about having to apply and feel techniques to learn them with a big caveat, the blows taught in combatives are potentially killing blows - ax hands (EOH) to the neck/ throat, chin jab/ tiger claw/ face smash, etc. Other than a Bullet Man suit, there's no way to safely train them on a real opponent. even a FIST suit falls woefully short. I got concussed by an elbow to the temple wearing a FIST helmet/ suit and we weren't even going that hard.

Training on Spar Pros, doing figure 8 routines to your partners arms, or investing in a Bullet Man suit is the way to go, IMHO.

Razor
05-16-2005, 12:23
...doing figure 8 routines to your partners arms...

Cinn, could you explain this? Is this akin to the Hubud drill?

Kyobanim
05-16-2005, 13:20
Razor,

Square off with a partner, striking the arms and shoulders with whatever strike, i.e., ridgehand, bear claw, yoke or tiger strike, switching from left to right. It develops the 'feel' of the force needed to appropriately apply the technique and it conditions the recipient's arms and shoulders. This can also be done using blocking motions thereby conditioning forearms.

Cinci, It's still advantagious to use the 'killing blows' on a live partner. It develops accuracy, since you have a partner that can say 'that hurt' and it teaches control.

You're probably going to say that they need to practice more and you're right. Combatives are not something that should be taught to people who are not going to practice on a regular basis. It's like giving someone a loaded gun and no classes on shooting or gun safety. Part of learning the techniques is learning the control that goes with them.

Cincinnatus
05-16-2005, 18:14
Razor,

I'm a total bozo @ trad'l MAs so when I say that I think it's similar to hubud lubud it may not mean much. Kyobanim described it well.

I left Damian's to drive back to VT after drilling these and it was one LOOOONG drive. It hurt to lift my arms to hold the steering wheel so I'd hold w/ one hand as long as I could and then Ouch! switch to the other hand. :boohoo Damn glad it was mostly highway.

Kyobanim,

No argument with what you've said, except that I think one of the beautiful things about combatives, especially if trained under stress, is how well the techniques are retained.

Razor
05-16-2005, 18:21
Ah, got it. Thanks guys.

Smokin Joe
05-17-2005, 08:30
I personally don't understand this. In an LE environment, where subduing the suspect is the goal, people are innocent until proven guilty, and litigation is an overriding concern, it may be a valid criticism.

My mistake for not throwing in the cavaet.

Cavaet for LEO's when the chips are down, lethal force is justified, their life is in Emmient Jeopardy, they are being wolf packed, or other type of situation where their next few seconds maybe there last.

I/we are unable to show our guys the down and dirty, break neck, monkey stomp, stuff NDD is talking about.

When we really put the pressure on a lot of our guys revert to flailing or other less productive messures.

Blueboy
05-17-2005, 18:35
Great thread. Reaper---are they still teaching the LINE system in the pipeline? That seemed like pretty good stuff. Donvito's program was a little lockstep, but it emphasized the killing aspect of H2H (only two of his moves were non-killing blows) and the fact that when/if you come to blows with the enemy you will be wearing full kit and smoked to the point of exhaustion.

Bill Harsey
05-17-2005, 18:49
Good stuff for everyone.

I like this. Pretty much says it all,
the winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.
Kyo, I agree, providing the buddy doesn't drill both of 'em at the same time.

Kyobanim
05-17-2005, 19:15
and the fact that when/if you come to blows with the enemy you will be wearing full kit and smoked to the point of exhaustion.

Excellent point.

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

Blueboy
05-17-2005, 21:13
That's the beauty of LINE training---it stresses that when you are in that dire situation, ANYTHING (e-tool, tree stump, rock, K-pot) is a weapon.

NousDefionsDoc
05-17-2005, 22:01
Excellent point.

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?
Good question. With body armor, think of the mass you can get moving. Just run over them like a freight train and Bronco Stomp them as you run over them.

Go For Broke
05-17-2005, 22:05
That's the beauty of LINE training---it stresses that when you are in that dire situation, ANYTHING (e-tool, tree stump, rock, K-pot) is a weapon.


So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

To build on this, what Blueboy mentioned...Body Armor...and the kit that is on your body armor. If you are in a grappling situation (stand up or on the ground) you still have the plates, and possibly the mags in your ammo pouches. Smash / scrape his face into / down them. Not a lethal blow, but definitely provides you an edge. Your helmet (still on your head) is also much harder than his face.

Just my $0.02
V/R,

aricbcool
05-18-2005, 00:47
Kyo, I agree, providing the buddy doesn't drill both of 'em at the same time.

Remembering Raiders of the Lost Ark and the creepy Nazi dude: "Shoot them. Shoot them both..."

As far as all the grappling and ground fighting goes, I would think it'd be pretty hard to accomplish some of the moves from that video in full kit (just from a flexibility stand-point).

This was brought up on another thread, but I think the gun barrel would make an excellent jabbing weapon in a full kit fight. Possibly more effective than the butt of the gun (being plastic and all.) Bayonet, of course, would be better. Otherwise, anything that can hurt your opponent would be worth using.

I think it ultimately comes down to who comes up with the brutal answer first and whether they're willing to use it.

Most people have a natural aversion to up close and personal killing. Breaking bones, gouging sensitive places and otherwise permanently f-ing your opponent up doesn't necessarily come naturally. Whether or not you identify the opening and then have the stomach to follow it up could make all the difference.

Or you could wait until someone shows up with a gun.

--Aric

Trip_Wire (RIP)
05-18-2005, 01:29
Remembering Raiders of the Lost Ark and the creepy Nazi dude: "Shoot them. Shoot them both..."

As far as all the grappling and ground fighting goes, I would think it'd be pretty hard to accomplish some of the moves from that video in full kit (just from a flexibility stand-point).

This was brought up on another thread, but I think the gun barrel would make an excellent jabbing weapon in a full kit fight. Possibly more effective than the butt of the gun (being plastic and all.) Bayonet, of course, would be better. Otherwise, anything that can hurt your opponent would be worth using.

I think it ultimately comes down to who comes up with the brutal answer first and whether they're willing to use it.

Most people have a natural aversion to up close and personal killing. Breaking bones, gouging sensitive places and otherwise permanently f-ing your opponent up doesn't necessarily come naturally. Whether or not you identify the opening and then have the stomach to follow it up could make all the difference.

Or you could wait until someone shows up with a gun.

--Aric

I can sure vouch for the Korean war era entrenching tool! It make both a great blunt instrument and isn't to bad for splitting heads down to the nose area, if deployed with the stress brought on by close combat and a number of chinese trying to kill ya.
:eek:

:munchin

Basenshukai
05-20-2005, 12:12
Excellent point.

So lets take this in a different direction. You're exhausted. Adrenaline is just about gone. You have expended your ammo, your buddy is out also, it's down to hand to hand.

What do you have on your kit that you can use as a weapon? How do you use it?

When initially exposed to Mr. Ron Donvito's concepts I was satisfied that he, in collaboration with others, had done sufficient research on the whole matter of killing up close. The concepts are sound. The teaching method might not suit everyone, but 1) they are to the point and 2) are fairly simple.

I have personally discussed these concepts with Ken Good and Tony Blauer (telephonically) and all of their methods converge at numerous points since the goal is the same.

As for wearing full kit, I can tell you that what is taught when you are merely wearing BDUs, and, perhaps, a light "green ops" LBE will not create the same results. For one thing, wearing body armor changes your center of balance. Your points of vulnerability are also different. Weapon retention - your secondary weapon, for instance - becomes much more critical at this point.

I fondly remember being number-one man on a four-man stack and entering a room only to have my M4 barrel immediately deflected and found myself engaged in the most exhausting two minutes of my life. I had multiple points from which the "bad guy" could handle me and disrupt my center of balance: My MBTIR radio, my alternate light source, my magazine pouches, my straps, my chin strap, and my assault goggles. Within seconds of the encounter, the rest of the stack was already in the room and were controlling two others. Because my center of balance had been disrupted and I did not base low enough to counter it, I found myself on the ground. Ended up on top of the opponent using the weight of my kit and my body to pin him on the ground. Finally, I used a reverse arm lock, my knee firmly planted on the back of his neck to keep him from squirming and another assaulter applying an ankle lock while I "zip-tied" him. It only took two, maybe three minutes but it felt like I was sprinting. And this was just training.

This concept is not new, it is in fact hundreds of years old. Yoroi Kumiuchi (armor grappling) was taught as part of the regular jujutsu (or, jutaijutsu, taijutsu, yawara) curriculum for the same reason. When wearing kit, your body movement has to change and your techniques have to adapt. Back then; I'm sure, that the winner of the fight was usually the one whose buddy showed up first with a tanto.

NousDefionsDoc
05-21-2005, 00:44
I fondly remember being number-one man on a four-man stack and entering a room only to have my M4 barrel immediately deflected and found myself engaged in the most exhausting two minutes of my life.

Next time, shoot him in the face before he grabs your rifle, Sir. If you can't, then immediately after. He'll let go, I promise.

MAB32
05-21-2005, 16:32
Smokin Joe, I am with you. Our guys and gals have been learning nothing more than "ground fighting" techniques for over 2 years now. Nothing else. All fights don't neccesarily end up on the ground from my experience. Also, the admin is afraid that too many people will end up missing work on Worker's Comp claims. So we are shown a very anemic/watered down version of some SWAT guys visions. When shown techniques from others like McCann, Styers, Gracie, and others that have been mentioned, they immediately say: "We are not killers, we protect lives, that stuff is way too violent." I carry a Glock, so should I keep it unloaded? Everybody who desires to get further training from different sources is denied.

Now we are the second in Ohio (supposedly?) to put dogs in our Jail on "patrol" throught the facility. Guess how many inmates have gotten bit? I'll give everybody a hint: Deputies 1, Inmates 0.

Bottom line,
When you work for a politician, PC can get you hurt or killed.

Smokin Joe
05-22-2005, 05:27
Bottom line,
When you work for a politician, PC can get you hurt or killed.

AMEN!!!

Bill Harsey
05-22-2005, 10:05
Smokin Joe, I am with you. Our guys and gals have been learning nothing more than "ground fighting" techniques for over 2 years now. Nothing else. All fights don't neccesarily end up on the ground from my experience. Also, the admin is afraid that too many people will end up missing work on Worker's Comp claims. So we are shown a very anemic/watered down version of some SWAT guys visions. When shown techniques from others like McCann, Styers, Gracie, and others that have been mentioned, they immediately say: "We are not killers, we protect lives, that stuff is way too violent." I carry a Glock, so should I keep it unloaded? Everybody who desires to get further training from different sources is denied.

Now we are the second in Ohio (supposedly?) to put dogs in our Jail on "patrol" throught the facility. Guess how many inmates have gotten bit? I'll give everybody a hint: Deputies 1, Inmates 0.

Bottom line,
When you work for a politician, PC can get you hurt or killed.
MAB32,
You bring up a good point about your management claiming your not killers so therefore you shouldn't practise hard martial arts.

Here is my short study in stating the obvious:
In order to save a life you may have to have the skills to end a threat. Your not doing the public any good on the ground dying as the bad guy(s) turn to the next victim in line.
Train the hard martial arts, you can always choose to not use 'em if you don't need 'em just like with your handgun.

MAB32
05-22-2005, 20:54
:) Mr. Harsey, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in your statement and I am sure Smokin Joe will agree also! I have gone out and sought different training and when I couldn't find or get any, I sent away for the tapes and/or books and manuals. For example, I have the book on knife fighting by Michael Echanis that I bought many moons ago when it first came out. I also do the "what ifs" allot and constantly run scenarios through my head in order to stay sharp. This I beleive keeps me sharp and lessons my chances of getting it in an ambush. Actually, for me it is quite fun and keeps me on my toes.

Like I tell my fellow Deputies who come to me and ask for advice on what to do in various situations whereby "lethal force" may/might be used I tell them: "Bottom line is this, "It is better to be tried by twelve then buried buried by six." I also tell them that on the other hand they need to remember this one too: "Just because you can doesn't mean you always should." This is refering to the fact that just beacuse you can legally get away with using lethal force on someone doesn' mean you absolutely have to. If there is another way to get the job done and your life or that of someone elses isn't in immediate danger of death, then take some time and THINK before you are asked to account for every round thrown downrange.

I hope everybody can benefit from the above mentioned words of wisdom given to me by my longtime mentor in law enforcement. :)

Smokin Joe
05-22-2005, 22:38
:) Mr. Harsey, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in your statement and I am sure Smokin Joe will agree also! I have gone out and sought different training and when I couldn't find or get any, I sent away for the tapes and/or books and manuals. For example, I have the book on knife fighting by Michael Echanis that I bought many moons ago when it first came out. I also do the "what ifs" allot and constantly run scenarios through my head in order to stay sharp. This I beleive keeps me sharp and lessons my chances of getting it in an ambush. Actually, for me it is quite fun and keeps me on my toes.

Like I tell my fellow Deputies who come to me and ask for advice on what to do in various situations whereby "lethal force" may/might be used I tell them: "Bottom line is this, "It is better to be tried by twelve then buried buried by six." I also tell them that on the other hand they need to remember this one too: "Just because you can doesn't mean you always should." This is refering to the fact that just beacuse you can legally get away with using lethal force on someone doesn' mean you absolutely have to. If there is another way to get the job done and your life or that of someone elses isn't in immediate danger of death, then take some time and THINK before you are asked to account for every round thrown downrange.

I hope everybody can benefit from the above mentioned words of wisdom given to me by my longtime mentor in law enforcement. :)

You are correct.

Lucky for me one of our Detectives is a 6th Dan in Tae Kwon Do and Combat Hapkido.

I also have a long history in old school Jujitsu. But by no means do I think I know it all or even most of it....there is always someone who knows more than I out there...and I'm always looking for a better, simpler, and more effective system or style.

frostfire
05-23-2005, 20:11
Getting hurt using unarmed combat techniques is part of the learning process. You can't properly apply a joint lock, bar or other dissabling technique without having it done to you and then doing it to a partner in practice. Going through the motions doesn't cut it. You need to learn what amount of force it takes to properly perform the technique, and what is needed for control of the opponent.
You need to hit and be hit, not killing blows but solid contact none the less, just to know what to expect. That's called conditioning.
......
Square off with a partner, striking the arms and shoulders with whatever strike, i.e., ridgehand, bear claw, yoke or tiger strike, switching from left to right. It develops the 'feel' of the force needed to appropriately apply the technique and it conditions the recipient's arms and shoulders. This can also be done using blocking motions thereby conditioning forearms.
Cinci, It's still advantagious to use the 'killing blows' on a live partner. It develops accuracy, since you have a partner that can say 'that hurt' and it teaches control.

Kyobanim, in your full contact training (including groin), do you train students to use full speed 'n everything but to open the fist just before contact so that the hit is a nasty-pain-inducing slap instead of fatal-bone-crushing blow?

Just comparing technique. I learnt back at school that pain is very useful to condition reflexes on human being just like in various animal training: after getting my temple "slapped" so many times that my eye started twitching, I finally learnt to protect my head.

Kyobanim
05-23-2005, 20:49
Kyobanim, in your full contact training (including groin), do you train students to use full speed 'n everything but to open the fist just before contact so that the hit is a nasty-pain-inducing slap instead of fatal-bone-crushing blow?

Just comparing technique. I learnt back at school that pain is very useful to condition reflexes on human being just like in various animal training: after getting my temple "slapped" so many times that my eye started twitching, I finally learnt to protect my head.

Keep in mind that I am trying to make a living at this. Causing pain in a student before they're ready is a good way to run them off. First you have to show them that they can overcome the pain, then move on to the rest. That being said. . .

No groin contact. Full speed is practiced in the advanced stage, 7 belts into the system. At that point it's up to the student as to whether they want to wear pads or go at it bare. No contact to the head period. There's not enough insurance in the world for me to teach that. No groin contact. Any kick, strike or punch is allowed to the front and side torso, arms, shoulders, inside and outside thigh. Knees are off limits. I do encourage sparring gear at this level but it's not required. It's also taught as point sparring.

Only black belts that have proven that they have the temprament and control, in my opinion (and that's the only one that counts), are taught disabling attacks. And maybe a few of the color belts if they show the same.

Teaching someone how to deliver a ridgehand to the head that will crush the skull or windpipe can be costly. If I send someone out into the world and they hurt, maim or kill someone I will have to live with it as well as themselves. Knowing the technique is only half the equation. You have to know when to use it also.

I don't make contact with my hand when I'm training people to block. I use the kicking paddles. They only sting a little and I can start using them at an early stage to develop the block instinct. By the time they get to the full contact stage they pretty much know how to block and have conditioned their blocks accordingly.

I could go on all night talking about this, but . . .

Hope that answered the question.

frostfire
05-24-2005, 00:36
Hope that answered the question.
That will do, thanks!
Before asking the question, I forgot to incorporate into consideration that we were training with whatever we got, and there were no such thing as insurance.