For All You Taser Fans...

[Bill Harsey]

Here is one out of Seattle for all you taser fans, http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/223578_taser10.html

[swatsurgeon]

Sounds like a stun gun, not a taser that fires a pronged dart. Her application site burns are consistant with a stun gun, not a Taser. The taser must be fired to operate, it is not a contact weapon.

[The Reaper]

Sounds like a stun gun, not a taser that fires a pronged dart. Her application site burns are consistant with a stun gun, not a Taser. The taser must be fired to operate, it is not a contact weapon.

Good info, but the TASER does have a contact capability.

TR

[Bravo1-3]

LEO's in Washington State carry Air Tazers, not stun guns. TR is correct, they can be used as contact weapons, or as ranged weapons.

[Bill Harsey]

This afternoon I spoke with a Sheriff's deputy in this area.

I found out we here in Oregon aren't as civilized as the States of Washington or California because we aren't required to sign a traffic citation in order to receive it from the issuing police Officer or Deputy.

[brewmonkey]

Brooks testified she didn't even know what it was when Jones showed it to her and pulled the trigger, allowing her to hear the crackle of 50,000 volts of electricity.

You know, I don't have to know much in life but there is one thing I can always assume. When you have an agitated officer at your window and he has something in his hand that looks like a gun or makes a loud noise when the trigger is pulled, IT MEANS IT IS PROBABLY GOING TO HURT and I should stop what I am doing and listen.

That's just me though.

I am tired of people using their personal situation to justify their own stupidity. :rolleyes:

[Bill Harsey]

Let's see, after being pulled over by an MTV generation baby cop who continually probed me to see if I would display some attitude...
would I let that color my thinking of law enforcement?
Naw.

[MAB32]

TASER can be used as a "contact" ERD. We do it all the time here. Used last week on a female who fought 5 of us. Gave her a warning with the cartridge off the weapon and that was to no avail so I gave here a shot on top of the thigh (only place open at the time). Got her attention but she continued fighting. Hit her again in the same local and she relaxed enough for us to shackle her down to a bullring. A few seconds later she was at again only this time she was fighting steel and concrete. She lost.

On a side note to all, does everybody know that electricity takes the past of least resistance? I just wasn't quite convinced of this so I just had to see this two weeks ago when I put my hand a little too close to the front and I saw in "very slow motion" the arc(s) jumping from one stud to my hand. :eek:

I hate electricity...

[Bill Harsey]

TASER can be used as a "contact" ERD. We do it all the time here. Used last week on a female who fought 5 of us. Gave her a warning with the cartridge off the weapon and that was to no avail so I gave here a shot on top of the thigh (only place open at the time). Got her attention but she continued fighting. Hit her again in the same local and she relaxed enough for us to shackle her down to a bullring. A few seconds later she was at again only this time she was fighting steel and concrete. She lost.

On a side note to all, does everybody know that electricity takes the past of least resistance? I just wasn't quite convinced of this so I just had to see this two weeks ago when I put my hand a little too close to the front and I saw in "very slow motion" the arc(s) jumping from one stud to my hand. :eek:

I hate electricity...
Was this for her not signing a twelve MPH over the limit ticket too?

[brewmonkey]

On a side note to all, does everybody know that electricity takes the past of least resistance? I just wasn't quite convinced of this so I just had to see this two weeks ago when I put my hand a little too close to the front and I saw in "very slow motion" the arc(s) jumping from one stud to my hand. :eek:

I hate electricity...


Don't you love a good physics lesson? :munchin

[MAB32]

Bill,

she came in on drugs & liquid courage and kicked one of our local PD's finest, well, in the finest of all areas of the male anatomy. :rolleyes: Nobody in this state goes to jail for a speeding ticket anymore, unless, we can make it high end misdemeanor or felony. :D

Physics lessons can be painful. Not sure which hurts worse though, the one where "what goes up must come down" or "the path of least resistance". :)

[jasonglh]

While I find the use of the taser on the neck questionable judgement considering some of the bad press. She certainly brought this on herself by resisting arrest. Did she think when she clung to the steering wheel that they would just give up?

What a dumbass.

[Smokin Joe]

While I find the use of the taser on the neck questionable...

Why?

The Taser when used in a drive stun technique (as the Officer did) and as MAB32 stated in his scenario the Taser is less effective because it effects less area on the body. To compensate for the lack of effected tissue you must place the Taser in an area that is more "receptive" to the electricity.

As MAB32 stated and with the case in point, by placing the Taser on the thigh (a large muscle group). Yes it hurts, BUT by no means will it stop someone; in my experience doing a drive stun to an area such as the thigh or large muscle group. waists time and further aggrevates the individual you are fighting. [Not a knock on you MAB32 I fully understand you gotta go for what is available at the time]

So we train (and Taser strongly recommonds that) you preform drive stuns to the cartoid artery, the cyadic (sp?) nerve, common peronial, the tibail nerve, or the pelvic area (aka the groin) because all of these areas are very senistive and when done properly strongly discourage the individual from continuing there non-compliant behavior.

Additionally besides this chick's lack of common sense (by not obeying a lawful order by a Police Officer). How can she think that she's in the right, even after the Officer displayed the Taser to her and said that unless she complied he would be forced to Taser her....Maybe she should have trusted the individual wearing the badge and just gone along with his directions, sign the ticket and if she thought he was wrong argue it in court not on the side of the road.

I'm with Brew Monkey I'm tired of people being stupid, stubborn, arrogant, and think they should have a pissing contest with an Officer on the side of the road, just because they "think" they are right.

Mr. Harsey,

Please file a formal complaint next time. That kind of crap that rookie pulled is bullshit and as a Sgt. I really want to know when my guys are acting like punks, because it gives everyone who wears a badge a very bad name. Officer's already have a bad name in society just because they enforce the law the last thing we need is to give society reasons to hate us.

[Bill Harsey]

Bill,

she came in on drugs & liquid courage and kicked one of our local PD's finest, well, in the finest of all areas of the male anatomy. :rolleyes: Nobody in this state goes to jail for a speeding ticket anymore, unless, we can make it high end misdemeanor or felony. :D

Physics lessons can be painful. Not sure which hurts worse though, the one where "what goes up must come down" or "the path of least resistance". :)
I was pretty sure you guys had a whole different deal there.
Thanks.

[Bill Harsey]

Mr. Harsey,

Please file a formal complaint next time. That kind of crap that rookie pulled is bullshit and as a Sgt. I really want to know when my guys are acting like punks, because it gives everyone who wears a badge a very bad name. Officer's already have a bad name in society just because they enforce the law the last thing we need is to give society reasons to hate us.

Thanks Smokin' Joe.
I would file a formal complaint but it is my belief based on observation that it would produce absolutely no positive result and make no difference except to label me a whiner and paint a target on my back.
They have also lost all my support in this particular community.

edited to add, ...and I didn't even get a ticket.

[Smokin Joe]

Thanks Smokin' Joe.
I would file a formal complaint but it is my belief based on observation that it would produce absolutely no positive result and make no difference except to label me a whiner and paint a target on my back.
They have also lost all my support in the community.

Some but not all agencies will take anonymous complaints.

Everyone's got a boss....just food for thought.

[MAB32]

Yep, absolutely right Smokin Joe, gotta go for what is available. I just happened to look down and that was the only part showing, the rest of her was covered in uniforms. I would of much prefered to have hit her with the prongs from hell but she was within 1-2 feet of me when this all went down, it stinks because the range just wasn't there. We are averaging in our department alone one TASER'd subject a week so they are getting allot of use. Smokin Joe, when you went to be qualified for the TASER did they show you the Power Point presentation, and if so, did you see the "Big" Red one they used on the Bull? I guess it is for animals only. We also have had to shoot a person with two TASERS. The one wasn't working too well and the batteries were fresh. The subject attempted to pull one of the barbs out himself before he was hit again by another officer. That got his attention and definately made a believer out of him.

If you go to TASER class you will find that anyplace you can strike with a baton or PR-24 is also a target for the TASER with a few extra sights thrown in. Attempting "Lethal Force" under certain circumstances would be a shot to the head area and hoping for a barb hit to the eye and neck, although I doubt that even this would be a waist of time. If you have it out and things go south real quick then we have decided to go ahead and shoot the TASER, drop it and transition to the handgun. Hopefully, unless Murphy's Law intercedes, this can buy you time. This last part is FYI only.

[Peregrino]

Why?

That kind of crap that rookie pulled is bullshit and as a Sgt. I really want to know when my guys are acting like punks, because it gives everyone who wears a badge a very bad name. Officer's already have a bad name in society just because they enforce the law the last thing we need is to give society reasons to hate us.


Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? More power to you for understanding the problem and being willing to address it where you can. There's nothing worse than a guard dog with a taste for sheep. Nobody in their right mind wants to see what will happen if the sheep decide to solve the problem themselves. :( Peregrino

[MAB32]

Bill, hang in there brother. You might tell one the next time you see him/her, of course in a very diplomatical way, that, that badge on their chest covers a very small portion of their chest and none of their a$$! Cops are suppose to be "people friendly" and that some of the ones that have been coming out of my department's academy for the last 8 years are nothing short of worthless. They yell and scream first instead of listening. They shoot demand respect of the community instead of earning it. They think lying all the time to people will get them to cooperate. Some will even go as far as making ("locker Room chatter") comments that they cannot wait until they drop somebody with their Glock.

Bill, sorry for the ranting and raving but IMHO they should of let her go. Jeez, they already had all her information what more could they have accomplished by "forcing" her to sign a piece of paper. Give her her copy and move on. Charge her at a latter date if need be and issue a warrant if she doesn't show up to court. I guess they forgot that some of their job entails "de-escalation" of a situation and not escalating it.

[Smokin Joe]

Yep, absolutely right Smokin Joe, gotta go for what is available. I just happened to look down and that was the only part showing, the rest of her was covered in uniforms. I would of much prefered to have hit her with the prongs from hell but she was within 1-2 feet of me when this all went down, it stinks because the range just wasn't there. We are averaging in our department alone one TASER'd subject a week so they are getting allot of use. Smokin Joe, when you went to be qualified for the TASER did they show you the Power Point presentation, and if so, did you see the "Big" Red one they used on the Bull? I guess it is for animals only. We also have had to shoot a person with two TASERS. The one wasn't working too well and the batteries were fresh. The subject attempted to pull one of the barbs out himself before he was hit again by another officer. That got his attention and definately made a believer out of him.

If you go to TASER class you will find that anyplace you can strike with a baton or PR-24 is also a target for the TASER with a few extra sights thrown in. Attempting "Lethal Force" under certain circumstances would be a shot to the head area and hoping for a barb hit to the eye and neck, although I doubt that even this would be a waist of time.


MAB32,

If you find yourself in the same type of situation in the future and you have the opportunity you might want to try. Making an intentionally bad shot with the probes. I.E. only sinking 1 probe (usually the top because that is what the laser is sighted to) into the individual then drive stuning the individual (with the cartridge still on) as far away from the entrance of the probe as you can reach. This will close the circuit and give you the same effect as if you actually shot the individual from a greater distance away and you will then achieve EMD. Just food for thought

When I went to the instructor school Hans Marrero advised us to only do drive stuns to large nerve endings or pressure points, but to shoot large muscle groups with the probes. Logic is this: The drive stun effects a smaller area, because of that the EMD will be in a smaller area so you need to create more pain, basically the Taser becomes a pain compliance tool when using a drive stun. Now by shooting large muscle groups i.e. sinking a probe at the top right shoulder and the bottom probe by the lower left hip region you will be effecting all of the muscles inbetween and achieve EMD and the individual will not be able to fight through it.

On high risk subjects we try and deploy 2 Tasers, one right after the other or simultainously. But we train to only engage a high risk subject with a Taser when you have Lethal cover....(as always situation dictates).

If you have it out and things go south real quick then we have decided to go ahead and shoot the TASER, drop it and transition to the handgun. Hopefully, unless Murphy's Law intercedes, this can buy you time. This last part is FYI only.
I'm not too sure about deploying the Taser then droping it and transitioning in this type of situation. We train to grab the Taser with your week hand pull it towards your center line while transitioning to your pistol. I understand why you would but I'm not big on droping things that can be picked up and used against me. I think that I would only do this IF it was an immedate shoot situation...then again I think I might not even waist that .25 of a second deploying the Taser and just drop it and go for my gun. I will have to kick this idea around for awhile it has merit and potentail. I'm going to train it and see if the potential of actually hitting someone while moving out weigh the scrafice in speed. Thanks for the tip.

I saw that bull video they used the MX-26 (4 times more powerful than the M26 or X26) that thing is crazy. Also when they hit the bull one of the probes stuck in the bulls nut-sack. Glad I didn't have to remove that probe. :eek: The week before I went through school Taser did a class for the Aussie SAS and showed that video the Aussie's were about ready to go to one of the sandboxes and specifically requested an MX-26 to deploy with. An individual I know who works for Taser made one "available" to them ;) I have heard that someone has been hit with it; but it wasn't on this continent. :D Those things were designed for LARGE DANGEROUS GAME such as 600+ lbs Bears, Bulls, and Pissed off Moose.

[Smokin Joe]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? More power to you for understanding the problem and being willing to address it where you can. There's nothing worse than a guard dog with a taste for sheep. Nobody in their right mind wants to see what will happen if the sheep decide to solve the problem themselves. :( Peregrino

Thanks Peregrino,

I try to keep my little nitch in society in check, doesn't always work because mysteriously when I'm around my guys are little friggin angels. :rolleyes: sneaky bastards they are.

[uboat509]

Bill, sorry for the ranting and raving but IMHO they should of let her go. Jeez, they already had all her information what more could they have accomplished by "forcing" her to sign a piece of paper. Give her her copy and move on. Charge her at a latter date if need be and issue a warrant if she doesn't show up to court. I guess they forgot that some of their job entails "de-escalation" of a situation and not escalating it.
My question is, how obvious was it that she was pregnant? I know that some women can be eight months along and not show either because they didn't gain much weight or they were overweight to begin with. I am asking because if he knew or suspected that she was pregnant then he definately made a poor decision in this case. I am not a LEO but it seems to me that her refusal to sign this ticket makes her an obstinate b*tch, but not a threat to the officer, herself or the public. Given that fact was it really worth the potential risks to the fetus for a signiture on a ticket that she will have to pay reguardless? It takes suprisingly little to cause a placenta to tear off the uterine wall. This sounds, to me, like a battle of wills that escalated out of control for no good reason.

SFC W

[Bill Harsey]

Bill, hang in there brother. You might tell one the next time you see him/her, of course in a very diplomatical way, that, that badge on their chest covers a very small portion of their chest and none of their a$$! Cops are suppose to be "people friendly" and that some of the ones that have been coming out of my department's academy for the last 8 years are nothing short of worthless. They yell and scream first instead of listening. They shoot demand respect of the community instead of earning it. They think lying all the time to people will get them to cooperate. Some will even go as far as making ("locker Room chatter") comments that they cannot wait until they drop somebody with their Glock.

Bill, sorry for the ranting and raving but IMHO they should of let her go. Jeez, they already had all her information what more could they have accomplished by "forcing" her to sign a piece of paper. Give her her copy and move on. Charge her at a latter date if need be and issue a warrant if she doesn't show up to court. I guess they forgot that some of their job entails "de-escalation" of a situation and not escalating it.
MAB32, Thanks.
You described our MTV Generation Baby Cops perfectly.

I agree with everything you said.

In case any of you think I hate cops, this couldn't be farther from the truth. I just realized all the ones I hang out with are "old guys". This includes my knifemaking student of nearly twenty years who was head of a SWAT, worked interagency counter domestic terrorism and just retired at rank of Chief from a city of over 100,000 people.

[jbour13]

Reading things like this re-enforces why when dealing with LEO's stay compliant and keep your hands on the wheel. That means even if knowing your right, to take your ass home, to keep it from being shot off. Let the judge decide if you want it to go that way.

I work around the DC Metro and I am amazed at some of the folks they give a weapon and badge to. I've been badmouthed by off duty officers more than I have been by the locals. It has happened on a few occasions and has been reported to those that matter.

These are the same personality types I've dealt with in the military that are after the long or short tabs to make themselves look cool, not to benefit the unit or other soldiers. I worked with a soldier (11B) in my last duty assignment that attended the US Army Sniper School and acted like he was gods gift to long guns. I asked what kind of tips he'd have for us non-trigger pullers on range estimation (I wanted to work on my prairie dog shooting skills) and anything else I could get out of him. His statement "I've got mine, go get it yourself!" Now first off, I'm an intel weenie and I know nothing of the schoolhouse doctrine at Benning, but.....I do know that the instructors of all military schools tell these troops "go to your units and spread the wealth of knowledge that you had the priveledge to obtain" Marksmanship is a soldier skill and not reserved for those that live the one shot one kill lifestyle.

I'll put it in the most simple of terms that CSM A. told me on my first camping trip with the BN "SGT B, you're a damn trigger puller until the BC needs to know when and where he can kill the enemy, now get in your hole and watch your sector of fire!" :D

[jasonglh]

Wow I can't believe that Taser suggests hitting the carotid. The carotid sinus is very sensitive I have seen patients go into cardiac arrest just from the physician doing a carotid massage. That seems incredibly dangerous especially in this circumstance. Can you imagine the publicity if she had gone into cardiac arrest over such an incident?

I have never been tasered or shocked but I have been pepper sprayed (once in the back of my ambulance :rolleyes: ). Is pepper spray falling out of favor with LEO now?

[Sweetbriar]

I'm a little confused. His only point of conflict with her is she refused to sign the ticket. She never threatened him or tried to leave. Suppose the traffic cop's batteries were dead on his Taser. Would it have been proper for him to beat the woman with his baton until she complied?

[The Reaper]

I'm a little confused. His only point of conflict with her is she refused to sign the ticket. She never threatened him or tried to leave. Suppose the traffic cop's batteries were dead on his Taser. Would it have been proper for him to beat the woman with his baton until she complied?

In some jurisdictions, the ticket avoids being taken into custody and having to appear in front of a magistrate.

If you refused to sign it, you could be arrested, as she was, which would escalate into additional charges, such as resisting arrest, which it appears she did.

Due to its less-lethal and less permanent damage than hands on techniques, the TASER is lower on the Use of Force Continuum than soft hands in some departments.

Frankly, I would much rather be TASERed than OCed, but if the officer tells me to stand on my head at that moment, I will do my best to comply and seek redress later through other means. Noncompliance with an arresting officer is a poor course of action regardless.

TR

[uboat509]

I saw that bull video they used the MX-26 (4 times more powerful than the M26 or X26) that thing is crazy. Also when they hit the bull one of the probes stuck in the bulls nut-sack. Glad I didn't have to remove that probe. :eek: The week before I went through school Taser did a class for the Aussie SAS and showed that video the Aussie's were about ready to go to one of the sandboxes and specifically requested an MX-26 to deploy with. An individual I know who works for Taser made one "available" to them ;) I have heard that someone has been hit with it; but it wasn't on this continent. :D Those things were designed for LARGE DANGEROUS GAME such as 600+ lbs Bears, Bulls, and Pissed off Moose.
When I went to Gryphon last year they told us that the MX-26 hits at something like 50 cylces a second whereas the M26 hits at 19 cycles a second and the X26 starts at 19 cycles a second and then reduces. The instructor knows the guy who does the product testing at Taser and he says that 25 cycles is like getting hit by a truck. He also said that 50 cycles will break bones in a human. I believe it. During the course they Tased two individuals, one by shooting him in the back at about 10 feet and the other by just taking one probe and putting it into the waistband of his pants and the other into to onw of his socks. All that either of them could do was swear loudly and repeatedly. After that they put 24 of us in a semi-circle and had us link arms. They put one probe in the waist band of the guys on either end and proceded to put all 24 of us on our faces with one Taser.

SFC W

[Razor]

I'm a little confused. His only point of conflict with her is she refused to sign the ticket. She never threatened him or tried to leave. Suppose the traffic cop's batteries were dead on his Taser. Would it have been proper for him to beat the woman with his baton until she complied?

Without threat of punishment (and the willingness to follow through with it), what incentive is there for someone that's noncompliant to follow directions? If you tell your child to clean their room, and they blow you off after repeated reminders and warnings of impending punishment, do you let it slide since its such a small matter, or do you use a form of punishment to encourage future compliance? This was an adult; why shouldn't she do what she was told, even if it was something trivial, as it was a reasonable request made by a law enforcement officer?

[uboat509]

Without threat of punishment (and the willingness to follow through with it), what incentive is there for someone that's noncompliant to follow directions? If you tell you child to clean their room, and they blow you off after repeated reminders and warnings of impending punishment, do you let it slide since its such a small matter, or do you use a form of punishment to encourage future compliance? This was an adult; why shouldn't she do what she was told, even if it was something trivial, as it was a reasonable request made by a law enforcement officer?
I agree but the question is, did her infraction justify the use of the Taser, especially given her condition? She has already recieved the ticket for her infraction (speeding). She is going to have to pay the fine and get the points so why allow it escalate to the level that it did? I am not defending her actions at all, and if she were not pregnant and if this had not taken place in front of her child's school (and presumably her child), I would not have given this a second thought. But she was pregnant, which brings me back to my origional question, did he know or or suspect that she was pregnant before he tased her and then forced her to the ground? If he did then I believe that he made a bad decision.

SFC W

[Smokin Joe]

I agree but the question is, did her infraction justify the use of the Taser, especially given her condition? She has already recieved the ticket for her infraction (speeding). She is going to have to pay the fine and get the points so why allow it escalate to the level that it did? I am not defending her actions at all, and if she were not pregnant and if this had not taken place in front of her child's school (and presumably her child), I would not have given this a second thought. But she was pregnant, which brings me back to my origional question, did he know or or suspect that she was pregnant before he tased her and then forced her to the ground? If he did then I believe that he made a bad decision.

SFC W

If this were to happen in AZ here is the ramifications.

By signing the ticket all she would be agreeing to is her apperance and or communication with future court proceedings.

By not signing the ticket she is:
1. refusing a lawful order
2. not accepting that she recieved the ticket reguardless if she's guilty or not
3. refusing future compliance or communications with the courts

And yes she would be going to jail because she is refusing to appear at any future court proceedings.


Some key factors some are missing:
1. She was told she is under arrest.
2. The Officer(s) did in my opinion EVERYTHING they possibly could to use the least amount of force to secure her person.
3. She was still passive resistant.


Use of force Continuum:
Officer Presence
Verbal Commands
Soft hands
O.C./ Taser
Hard Hands
Baton
Cartoid Artery Resraint
Lethal Force

So lets see the Officers where there, they gave her several verbal directives, and advise her she was under arrest, they tried to pull her out of the car but she refused, so it was either O.C. her (which hurts A LOT more then a Taser does) or Taser her.

damn got to go I'll try and get on later and finish my thought...

Also in the article it states that the Officer who Tasered her displayed the device to her and advised her exactly what would happen if she continued to resist. So lets place ourselves in the shoes of the arresting Officer. Lets assume you know she's pregnant.

Your boss just gave you a legal directive to take this individual into custody. Are you going to disobey that direct order? You have explained the ticket and the ramifications of her not signing the ticket and that now you must take her into custody. She becomes passive resistant and will not comply. Being a reasonable person your not going to grab her by the hair and drag her to your car, right? So at what point are you actually going to place your hands on her and "TAKE" her into custody? Knowing that when you place your hands on her its probably going to esculate into a fist fight in the blink of an eye, and you will whined up doing more damage or harm to her then if you Taser'd her.

So what do you wanna do Officer?

[MAB32]

Pregnant or not she should be dealt with in the same manner in accordance to the department's Force Continuum.

In Ohio, if you don't sign, no big deal, we wright "refused" on the ticket and give it to her anyways. If she doesn't accept the ticket you can drop it in the car window or you can just wait until her court date shows up and she misses it. If she does show up then the Judge will have already read the Officer's comments on the back of the Court's side of the ticket and she will be dealt with accordingly. Signing a ticket, summons, or any other legal document concerning an arrest, again in Ohio, is not an admittance to guilt or confession to a crime. It is just acknowledging the fact that you recieved it, understood why you recieved it, and what you are to do. I then ask you if you understand and if you say "yes" then we both go on our seperate ways. If you don't, then I re-explain. If you don't after this second explanation then I just tell them that the Judge will be better at it than me. :munchin

[Manstein]

Here is a link to a video of a seperate incident.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html

Just a warning, she screams an awful lot during and after the taser.

(I dont mean to ressurect older threads, just felt you guys would want to see what actually happens during their procedure now.)

[Smokin Joe]

Here is a link to a video of a seperate incident.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html

Just a warning, she screams an awful lot during and after the taser.

(I dont mean to ressurect older threads, just felt you guys would want to see what actually happens during their procedure now.)


ROFLMMFAO.

What a drama queen. I know women who have screamed less giving birth.

[frostfire]

ROFLMMFAO.
What a drama queen. I know women who have screamed less giving birth.
the female's (and toddler) ultimate weapon to get their way: turn on the tears :boohoo
Very effective against unsuspectable and sucker XY's...that sickened me until I found out I was one of those suckers :(
Ever since then, I've been force feeding apathy to my system