View Full Version : Ar-15
I am in the process of looking at AR-15's and would like some opinions. Ive been reading AR15.com and other places but would like to see what you guys think.
The main use will be weekly trips to the range for much needed practice.
I just need a basic platform and for now plan to keep it simple ie iron sites with no gear attached etc. But I would like some flexibility to up grade so have been looking at things like detachable site handle so I could get an optic site later.
My main concern is whether to get a 16" or 20" barrel. The unit Im in uses 20" A2s, but other units I like shoot M4s. I am also aware that 20" is more powerful but I like the feel of the 16".
I like Colt, Bushmaster, and RR but have been seeing quite a bit of DPMS around as well as Olympia. Budget is an issue but so is a dependable platform. Id also lke to have a factory built weapon as opposed to mixed uppers an lowers etc-
Thanks in advance
LMT was offering a discount to AD Military and LE. You might want to look into that. They make some NICE blasters!
Of the ones you listed, I'd say get a RRA "Entry Tactical" chrome lined, shit-can that goofy tactical carry handle and you will be good to go.
If you can have the coin, get a colt. The Bushmasters don't seem to last. That is from observing them in a LE environment and really... they are not abused that badly.
Since you are thinking of an entry lever gun, have you thought about building your own? Get a receiver and then purchase the parts? you can get exactly what you want for under $800.
GackMan,
Yes I had thought of putting one together but read that factory assembled ARs did better at classes that involved heavy shooting over multiple days.
I had considered the detachable site handle because I could dx it later for an optic.
Right now I can get a slighty used Colt A2 20" HBar chromed with detachable site handle for $800.00. That is out of my price range but the guy would let me put it on lay away.
The thing is Im still a bit partial to 16" barrels-
Thanks for the input
ccrn,
I saw some NIB no-ban Bushmaster 16" A3's w/ the detachable handle and chromed barrel on Gunsamerica.com for $850 the other day. I believe they had threaded muzzles so that you could switch out the flash hiders easily if you so choose, and I also believe there were versions available with both carbine amd mid-length handguards. There is a dealer on the same site from Norcross, GA, that should be able to get you a similar setup from RRA for $750ish, can't remember his name though. Both might be worth checking out. :)
My main concern is whether to get a 16" or 20" barrel. The unit Im in uses 20" A2s, but other units I like shoot M4s. I am also aware that 20" is more powerful but I like the feel of the 16".
Thanks in advance
Go with what your unit has for training. If you go to another unit later with M4s you can always change it over, but I would train with what you may have to fight with now.
Archangel
04-04-2005, 21:49
I am also aware that 20" is more powerful but I like the feel of the 16".
I don't believe that the 20" has any more power than the 16" and if there is, it's negligible. However, the 20" will give you more accuracy for further distances. I would recommend that you go with a flat-top on either one. Bushmaster is my preference.
The Reaper
04-04-2005, 22:09
I don't believe that the 20" has any more power than the 16" and if there is, it's negligible. However, the 20" will give you more accuracy for further distances. I would recommend that you go with a flat-top on either one. Bushmaster is my preference.
Archangel, you are incorrect.
The 20" barrel adds about 50 meters to the effective terminal ballistics range (2700 fps threshold) of either the M193 or M855 ammo. While that does not sound like much, it is actually about 25-35% difference, as it extends it 95 meters to 150 meters with the M855, and from 150 to 200 meters with the M193.
The barrel length is irrelevant to accuracy. The sight radius MIGHT be, if you are shooting irons. If you have a flattop, you should be shooting optics.
The only other effect of the 20" is that the increased velocity of the longer barrel will help it shoot flatter at longer ranges.
What is the basis for comparison to recommend the BM over anything else?
TR
Archangel
04-04-2005, 22:36
Archangel, you are incorrect.
The 20" barrel adds about 50 meters to the effective terminal ballistics range (2700 fps threshold) of either the M193 or M855 ammo. While that does not sound like much, it is actually about 25-35% difference, as it extends it 95 meters to 150 meters with the M855, and from 150 to 200 meters with the M193.
The barrel length is irrelevant to accuracy. The sight radius MIGHT be, if you are shooting irons. If you have a flattop, you should be shooting optics.
The only other effect of the 20" is that the increased velocity of the longer barrel will help it shoot flatter at longer ranges.
What is the basis for comparison to recommend the BM over anything else?
TRThank you for the correction sir. I've learned something new tonight.
As far as the BM, it is just my preference. I've built a dozen or so AR's for myself & my buddies. Unlike some of the other uppers that I've used, I've never had any double-feeding/extraction issues with any BM uppers (or Colt's).
Yes I had thought of putting one together but read that factory assembled ARs did better at classes that involved heavy shooting over multiple days.
I wouldn't put too much faith into that. I've used rifles that I built at some of the 'Disneyland' schools like Thunder Ranch and I abused the shit out of them and I never had to go to my vehicle for a spare... (JINX). I specifically used rifles that I knew only cose me $600-$700 to build in some classes because I wanted to see how they held up.
Given your budget, I'd say build your own and get what you want.
I've seen nice, quality built rifles from reputable manufactures blow-up and I've seen the several bolt keys come loose from bushmasters (for some reason it seems like it is a trend).
if you have $800 +/- to spend, get a rifle, build it with good parts that you do your self. You'll be in a better position to fix it if the need should arise and you'll have 100% QA/QC over what goes into it and how.
Psywar1-0
04-16-2005, 05:18
I would go with the 20 In upper, just so you can train with what you are issued. That being said I would also probably have a M4 upper and stock so that you can quickly change over if M4's come out of the woodwork during pre deployment training.
AmericanPride
04-16-2005, 15:46
TR-
Do you have any recommendations for AR purchases in the Ft. bragg area? I've decided that I need one also, and was curious about where or how I should get one (i.e build it or buy it).
AP
The Reaper
04-16-2005, 17:29
I usually shop at Ed's on US 1 between Vass and Southern Pines.
Peregrino does some shopping in Fayetteville, he can make a recommendation, I think he uses Shooter's Pawn.
Jim's is the place to lookat the variety, but his prices are high and he has screwed friends of mine over before.
I would look at RRA, Armalite, or Bushmaster. Colt's are very high now.
If you have $800 and can find what you want, buy it assembled. If you don't have the cash all at once, or want something no one offers, buy the lower and part it out.
Good luck.
TR
AmericanPride
04-16-2005, 17:43
TR- Thank you for the info. BTW I've had a number of bad experiences with Jims also.
Prester John
04-16-2005, 19:39
I wouldn't buy anything but RRA. I had some issue with one of my Bushies and have had 4 RRA's with not even a hiccup.
The for sale forums on AR-15.com are the BEST place to pickup guns. I have gotten nothing but smoking deals on every gun I've bought off there. The sellers are flexible, will haggle a litte, and are happy to mail to an FFL. If they are in NC they usually will drive a good distance for a Face to Face transfer.
Doug
Peregrino
04-16-2005, 21:14
I usually shop at Ed's on US 1 between Vass and Southern Pines.
Peregrino does some shopping in Fayetteville, he can make a recommendation, I think he uses Shooter's Pawn.
Jim's is the place to lookat the variety, but his prices are high and he has screwed friends of mine over before.
I would look at RRA, Armalite, or Bushmaster. Colt's are very high now.
If you have $800 and can find what you want, buy it assembled. If you don't have the cash all at once, or want something no one offers, buy the lower and part it out.
Good luck.
TR
AP - What TR said. I use Shooter's, I've known the guys for years and they've always treated everybody I know well - good guys all around and not a lot of opinionated BS to deal with. (I like Walter Mitties about as much as TR and TS do - NOT - and you always seem to find the really obnoxious ones trying to sell you your next gun.) The guys at Ed's will be happy to help you out too. TR also has a buddy in Wendell that is a good guy to check out. The only reason I would ever walk in the door at Jim's is to find out what's new. I have some personal problems with his business practices. The best bet for the average shooter is to buy a complete system. I would start with RRA, then go to Armalite. IMNSHO Colt's are grossly over rated. I've got a Bushmaster upper that I had real problems getting to work right. Other people have good luck with them though. Now the rest of the story. I haven't bought a complete gun in years. Nowdays I buy uppers or build them/have them built and swap them around on my recievers. The big three are once again - RRA, Armalite, and Bushmaster. In my opinions (and the guys I shoot with) DPMS and Olympic Arms have spotty reputations when it comes to Quality Control. Personally if I was going to part out a rifle I would buy a reciever from Shooter's then go to Delton (www.del-ton.com) and talk to Tony or Cassandra. They buy quality parts at volume prices and you can realize some significant savings dealing with them. Really good people, Tony knows a lot about the weapon and configuring it and they're willing to work with you to get you what you want. They frequent the Fayetteville and Raleigh (May 7-8 if you're around) gun shows though most of their business is internet based. You can save a little money that way and take advantage of the weapon's modularity. Then you don't have to decide 16" or 20" questions - get one, go TDY, save money, and get the other. The only PITA is changing the stocks (do it a couple times and you'll save the money for another reciever pretty quickly). This is based on my personal experiences, your mileage may vary. But - I am VERY picky about who I'm willing to support with my patronage/dollars and I'm even worse about who I'll recommend. Good luck however you go and much enjoyment out of whatever you choose. Just my .02 - Peregrino
Roguish Lawyer
04-16-2005, 21:54
My Colt H-Bar Target Rifle is still NIB. LMAO
AmericanPride
04-17-2005, 09:59
Peregrino- Thanks for all the intel, I appreciate it. I'm still not 100% on buying complete or building it. I'll have to check out the show on the 7-8 being that I'll be around. I'm getting the eyes zapped on the 28th so why not go buy new guns while blind and medicated right? :D Thanks again for everyones input.
AP
The Reaper
04-17-2005, 10:25
Peregrino- Thanks for all the intel, I appreciate it. I'm still not 100% on buying complete or building it. I'll have to check out the show on the 7-8 being that I'll be around. I'm getting the eyes zapped on the 28th so why not go buy new guns while blind and medicated right? :D Thanks again for everyones input.
AP
Don't buy someone elses' gun plumbing nightmare at a show.
TR
Peregrino
04-17-2005, 19:04
Don't buy someone elses' gun plumbing nightmare at a show.
TR
AP - This is very good advice. If you don't know and trust the source and get a no-questions asked guarantee, don't buy it. Despite its modularity the AR's are not something shade tree mechanics always do well. Even the pro's occasionally screw the pooch - evidence my problems with the Bushmaster upper. The problems can usually be traced to "tolerance stacking" or poor QA on the assembly line. Both of which are impossible to identify until you take it to the range and start shooting it. That's when trust and warranty come into the picture. Good luck however you go. Peregrino
..to all who responded.
I found a '94 MT6700C for a very good price-
Thankyou
My Colt H-Bar Target Rifle is still NIB. LMAO
I don't think your Nanny State would approve of you owning such a dangerous weapon.
Peregrino
04-19-2005, 09:02
I don't think your Nanny State would approve of you owning such a dangerous weapon.
That's probably why it's still NIB. :D Reminds me of an anecdote I heard years ago about flowerbeds in former Soviet "provinces". Only place in the world where the daisys are watered with 30 weight motor oil to keep the AK's buried there from rusting. ;) Peregrino
..to all who responded.
I found a '94 MT6700C for a very good price-
Thankyou
Nice... now wheel out the camera and post some pics of that smoke wagon! :munchin
Here ya go.
Not the ideal tactical carbine I know, but has been good for range time and working on fundamentals.
Next I'll look for a 16 inch but that will be farther down the road-
bberkley
05-24-2005, 11:03
I won a Cavalry Arms CAV15 Scout rifle in a raffle on another board (haven't gotten it yet :mad: ) which I have a buyer lined up to fund the rebuilding of my Bushmaster.
I've got an EGW A3 upper, DPMS M4-profile 16" barrel, Yankee Hill Machine Vortex 5C1 flash suppressor, YHM Lightweight Specter quad-rail forearm and Specter gas block, and a Magpul M93B stock. I picked up a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T scope to top it off with.
I'm keeping the Bushie lower, as I already have it setup with a JP competition trigger.
The Reaper
05-24-2005, 11:35
I won a Cavalry Arms CAV15 Scout rifle in a raffle on another board (haven't gotten it yet :mad: ) which I have a buyer lined up to fund the rebuilding of my Bushmaster.
I've got an EGW A3 upper, DPMS M4-profile 16" barrel, Yankee Hill Machine Vortex 5C1 flash suppressor, YHM Lightweight Specter quad-rail forearm and Specter gas block, and a Magpul M93B stock. I picked up a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T scope to top it off with.
I'm keeping the Bushie lower, as I already have it setup with a JP competition trigger.
The Magpul is okay, I like the Crane SOPMOD stock better.
YHM guys are very nice.
TR
bberkley
05-24-2005, 11:49
I've been toying with the idea of using the M16 Clinic's pigtail gas tube because of the shorter gas system with the carbine-length barrel. Is this a good idea?
The Reaper
05-24-2005, 11:53
I've been toying with the idea of using the M16 Clinic's pigtail gas tube because of the shorter gas system with the carbine-length barrel. Is this a good idea?
Not if it runs well without it.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
TR
Roguish Lawyer
05-24-2005, 12:58
I don't think your Nanny State would approve of you owning such a dangerous weapon.
Missed this before. :o
They are banned, but mine is grandfathered. :lifter
They are banned, but mine is grandfathered. :lifter
So why don't you shoot it? Are you starting a museum or something? :D
I had the distinct pleasure of shooting a 3 gun match with Paul from MSTN this past weekend and picked up one of his QCB muzzle brakes off the prize table. I just installed it and hopefully will be able to test it next week. I have pretty well decided to take my AR the Race gun route and pick up another one to leave stock. The next one will probably be a carbine. My 20" gun as of right now is a Bushmaster HBAR that has JP trigger springs and polished factory trigger parts(to be upgraded to full JP trigger when funds allow), Briley Carbon fiber free float tube, Leupold CQ/T w/ ARMS mount, and newly mounted MSTN brake. I am planning some other changes in the near future such as an ERGO grip, and possibly a VLTOR fixed stock. Also kicking around the idea of going to a lightweight carrier/buffer setup like in the JP rifles, but I'll have to see how that goes.
good times,
Blake
Can you guys recommend a good sling for the AR15/M16 with 20" barrel?
I am familiar with single, double, and triple point slings although Ive only used the standard issue double point sling for carry. I realize that all three have their purpose, advantages and disadvantages.
I wanted to take a class or two but dont have time for it now, so mostly I'll be at the range just shooting. But I wouldnt mind playing around with one of the newer type slings to get a feel for it.
Thanks for any input
ccrn
The Reaper
05-28-2005, 16:07
I had the distinct pleasure of shooting a 3 gun match with Paul from MSTN this past weekend and picked up one of his QCB muzzle brakes off the prize table. I just installed it and hopefully will be able to test it next week.
good times,
Blake
Paul is a buddy of mine and is the partner of MSTN, who is an occasional lurker here.
Surprising guy, eh?
TR
Paul is a buddy of mine and is the partner of MSTN, who is an occasional lurker here.
Surprising guy, eh?
TR
Paul is a good guy, and he shoots pretty damn well too.
Can you guys recommend a good sling for the AR15/M16 with 20" barrel?
I am familiar with single, double, and triple point slings although Ive only used the standard issue double point sling for carry. I realize that all three have their purpose, advantages and disadvantages.
I wanted to take a class or two but dont have time for it now, so mostly I'll be at the range just shooting. But I wouldnt mind playing around with one of the newer type slings to get a feel for it.
Thanks for any input
ccrn
Sound purchase on the MT. Good AR to get started on, and adaptable for later "fixations". Get the original Giles sling---Only way to go. It's multipurpose and functional for all general fieldwork. For CQB or MOUT runs you might prefer a single point
The Reaper
06-01-2005, 22:12
Paul is a good guy, and he shoots pretty damn well too.
Had dinner with him tonight.
Did you have gun trouble at the match?
TR
Had dinner with him tonight.
Did you have gun trouble at the match?
TR
Affirmative, my scope loosened up from the ARMS mount due to my inattention while mounting it. and the Benelli I was borrowing was plagued with multiple problems. I have corrected the scope problem through judicious (bordering on excessive) use of red loctite, and I have decided to go back to the old standby 870 until I can afford a proper benelli of my very own. My antique glock worked fine though, small consolation that was.
Good times,
Blake
bberkley
06-04-2005, 16:27
I finished rebuilding my Bushmaster 20" HBAR last night.
Pics will follow probably tomorrow.
I used an EGW A3 upper receiver, a DPMS 16" M4-profile barrel, YHM Specter quad-rail forearm, end cap, gas block, and Phantom 5C2 flash suppressor. Magpul M93B stock, and Falcon ambi ergo grip.
Topped it off with a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T.
And to further drift the conversation, I parted with a Glock 21 :D today for a USP Compact in .40. I'm still gonna keep the Glock 34.
I finished rebuilding my Bushmaster 20" HBAR last night.
Pics will follow probably tomorrow.
I used an EGW A3 upper receiver, a DPMS 16" M4-profile barrel, YHM Specter quad-rail forearm, end cap, gas block, and Phantom 5C2 flash suppressor. Magpul M93B stock, and Falcon ambi ergo grip.
Topped it off with a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T.
And to further drift the conversation, I parted with a Glock 21 :D today for a USP Compact in .40. I'm still gonna keep the Glock 34.
Damn, someone's been busy.
I have very good luck with the 16" heavy barrel flattop upper I got from
J&T Distributing's "M16 company", Doublestar Corp. Built the thing
about 3 yrs. ago for Dave Lauck's 3-gun match (I was Pistol/Carbine).
Did an A2 stock and an Accuracy Speaks (they're on the web) trigger.
The trigger takes a little professional fitting, and it is the hardest
thing I have ground in a long time. Beautiful now.
Topped it with the U.S. Optics SN-4. It did quite well in
the match, and stays on a torso-sized target to ranges
so stupid for a 16" gun I won't even post 'em here. Cost for
complete upper is only $390, an excellent deal IMHO.
I would recommend asking for the 1:8" twist barrel if you
decide to go this route. My barrel likes the 69-gr. Black Hills
Match moly over the 77-grainers, but try both. Barrels are like wimmen. ;^)
1/888-736-7725, I think the catalogues are free.
Regards,
whit
I've got a Colt 6920 that has worked well for me. I've also had very good luck with LMT products, which are on a par with Colt in my opinion. Personally, I would match whatever I was issued, with the possible exception of sights. I've got an ACOG I really like. Of course you could always buy two of them, one full length and one M4 type....
Good luck with your rifle, fortunately you can buy almost anything these days. My personal AR is a lot nicer than anything I had in AFG.
The Colt with 20" Barrel has been working flawlessly without one jam. So much for working on immediate (POPS) and remedial actions.
I have been working on controlled pairs at 7ft, 21ft, and 25m lately.
After recently attending an Infantry course I find I like the M4 platform quite well and will save up for that over the next year. I'll go with colt-
Thanks for all input
ccrn
So much for working on immediate (POPS) and remedial actions.
Isn't SPORTS for ar15? IIRC POPS was for M249.
Gene Econ
09-20-2005, 08:04
Can you guys recommend a good sling for the AR15/M16 with 20" barrel?ccrn
CCRN:
Slings were probably introduced to modern firearms by Satan I sometimes think. Trying to figure out how to attach and then get an advantage out of them can be trying to ones patience. Bottom line is that guys either love them or refuse to have them on their rifles or carbines. That is probably the decision you will have to make. You will either end up liking a sling or not using one at all. I am not so sure they are a good idea when wearing full body armor and the helmet. Either one point or two point, you are restricting the location of your rifle or carbine to one side of your body and with all this gear on, you may have problems removing the sling so you can shift the rifle to the other side of your body. I will say that some will clip a one point sling with carbine to a snap link on their body armor and thus making removing the carbine a bit easier than trying to take the sling off over a helmet and all the body armor gear.
20 inch barrel with fixed stock (Service Rifle) normally means you will use a sling that affixes to the forend somewhere and the very end of the stock. When you lower the rifle, it sits conveniently between your web gear and your hands -- for better or worse. It may be a bit harder to bring to your shoulder than you would like but for hip firing it is pretty good.
One point slings fit on the end of the stock. They can hang well out of your way when lowered and are easier to bring the rifle to your shoulder. Unfortunately, for full length service rifles this means when you lower the rifle, the barrel goes 'clunk' into the dirt, even while standing. You can get away with one if you use a carbine, unless you take a knee. Then you get the muzzle in the dirt effect. Either way you need to control the weapon while moving or the weapon will swing wildly about the side and back of your body -- and get caught on things that you never thought it would get caught on.
Before you spend from thrity to sixty dollars for five dollars worth of nylon, try a two quart strap affixed to the front sight assembly and green taped to the rear of the stock so it won't interfere with your charging handle. We also used to use parachute cord affixed in the same manner before things got high speed. You will find out soon enough if you like having a sling on at all. If so, buy one for a medium cost.
If you intend to shoot competitive High Power with the rifle in order to get in some practice, spend ten dollars on a canvas M-1 Garand sling. Very easy to adjust while in position.
Slings remain the invention of Satan IMHO.
Gene
maytime you are correct regarding immediate actions. I do it pretty fast with the M4 at this point so abbreviated it. I use the M2, 240B, M249, and M9 alot here.
Gene thank you very much for your input. We have mamba slings available for about $10.00 in the PX and I used a three point I liked very much for just being on the range etc.
My unit is on convoy security duty here in the ITO and Ive found the sling to be exactly what you say it is in the confines of the truck and turret. Ive Dx'd it and use a wolf hook when outside the vehicle and need to have hands off. Otherwise it is in my hands unslung-
Thanks again
ccrn