View Full Version : Congress Reaches Deal in Schiavo Case
AngelsSix
03-20-2005, 07:38
What do you think in this case?? I think that Congress is WAY overstepping their boundries. On the other hand, I think the husband is shamless for having carried on the way he has.
Michael Schiavo's story (http://news.tbo.com/news/MGAGC7TE1MD.html)
This really makes me mad:
Michael Schiavo has a common law marriage with another woman who has borne him at least two children, Schindler said. ``He's breaking his wedding vows by living with another woman.''
What bothers me about the whole thing is given the evidence, he has done this for years to kill his wife so that he could have his life with his other family. Seems like a form of legalized killing to me....
I think the court should allow her parents to take care of her.
Kyobanim
03-20-2005, 08:04
After following this case for years, I think that everyone should get the hell out of it and leave him be. The Florida congress and and now the national congress are stepping way out of bounds on this one. 9 courts have already heard this case and every one of them has sided with the husband. The Supreme Court didn't even want to hear it after that.
He's turned down millions of dollars to give over custody to her parents. He's not doing this for the money, he's doing it because he loves his wife and it's what his wife wanted. If he wanted the money he could have cut and run a long time ago. The husband is shameless? I think not. If I ever end up like that I hope my wife has the courage to carry on like that on my behalf.
Shes' brain dead for christ's sake! Who do you think is going to pay to keep her alive for the next 20 or 30 years? Her parents? Think again.
==From the Orlando Sentinel==
I received an avalanche of e-mail about Terri Schiavo. The bad information going out on this case is amazing.
What is real and what is not?
For answers, I turned to University of South Florida professor Jay Wolfson. He was appointed as a guardian ad litem for Terri in 2003 and prepared a report on her for Jeb Bush.
After a judge dismissed him in December of that year, Bush and Terri's parents -- Bob and Mary Schindler -- requested he stay on as Terri's guardian. Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, opposed the request.
Wolfson's report is based on court files, depositions, medical records and interviews with everyone involved.
That said, I begin with the most explosive allegation:
Did Michael try to kill Terri?
Wolfson laughs. "No!"
In 1990, Terri went into cardiac arrest, which shut off oxygen to her brain. A potassium imbalance, perhaps caused by an eating disorder, triggered the attack.
Has Michael withheld treatment?
Wolfson's report states that in the four years after her collapse, Michael "had insistently held to the premise that Theresa could recover and the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care . . . In late autumn of 1990, following months of therapy and testing and formal diagnoses of persistent vegetative state with no evidence of improvement, Michael took Theresa to California, where she received an experimental thalamic stimulator implant in her brain. Michael remained in California caring for Theresa during a period of several months."
Says Wolfson now: "Michael was adoring of her. One nursing home complained he was hostile and abusive of the staff in championing her care. She was immaculately kept. In 13 years, she never had one bedsore."
Is Michael after her insurance settlement?
Wolfson's report says that early on, Michael "formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interests in the guardianship estate."
Why doesn't Michael simply turn Terri over to her family?
From the report: "Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive . . . at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open-heart surgery. Within the testimony, as part of the hypothetical presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."
Wolfson told me that when Michael heard this, he said: "That's it. I'm never going to let that happen to her."
Wolfson says the Schindlers later recanted their testimony.
Can Terri recover?
"Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of the persistent vegetative state," the report says. "These data indicate that Theresa's cerebral cortex is principally liquid, having shrunken due to the severe anoxic trauma experienced 13 years ago."
To read the entire report online, go to OrlandoSentinel.com/schiavo.
A few thoughts. I have no intention of arguing this case.
Terri is not on life support as such. Starving is a long, slow painful process. That isn't what I call "dieing with dignanty". Even convicted criminals get a quicker less painful death through lethal injection.
Congressmen are representatives. That is our way of government - elect people to represent our desires. If you don't think you are being properly represented, tell the people who count, your representative. He depends on your vote!
Smokin Joe
03-20-2005, 09:08
This is a perfect examply why I have a living will, a Do Not Resusitate(sp), and all of my family members know my wishes if I ever become brain dead or otherwise.
Like The Reaper said, "Take care of your affairs....."
Either way its a shitty situation.
NousDefionsDoc
03-20-2005, 09:18
If they are going to do it, they should do it, not let her starve.
If they are going to do it, they should do it, not let her starve.
Agreed, but then they'll have to let Kevorkian out.
Smokin Joe, a living will is getting to be a must. Unfortunately this is not a simple DNR case. Terri is breathing on her own and not on life support.
Kyobanim
03-20-2005, 09:36
If they are going to do it, they should do it, not let her starve.
That would be nice, but that's another right the government has taken away from the people.
I've written a living will and passed it out to the wife, son and his wife, sister and brothers and have told countless friends of my wishes. I don't want to end up like this.
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 10:48
Kyo I disagree with you. If he truly loved her he would have kept his vows. Instead he has run off with another women and started another family. He is also not the primary care giver and from most of the reprts I have seen he spends minimal time at the hospice and it is indeed her parents that are caring for her.
The only people to testify that they heard her mention about not being maintained in a situation like this are his family, none of hers. However there has been testimony from her family that she had an express wish to not have any life support removed. They had been discussing Karen Ann Quinlan and she made the comment. She is also a devout Catholic and follows the church doctrine. There is no doubt in my mind that she would not have expressed those wishes to her husbnd as he claims.
He has also not won every court battle, just the ones where they had the same judge over and over again. There were indeed rulings in favor of not removing the feeding tube.
The sad thing is that they remove the tube and it takes 2 weeks for her to die. How is that not murder? We execute prisoners more humanely then she is being treated and that is sad.
Let her parents care for her.
Oh yes, as far as not accepting money. That might be true but he will also not divulge if e has any life insurance on her and if he does how much it might be.
Then there is the fact that you do not "just get" an ED. Something brings it on and my guess is it has something to do with him.
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 10:52
This is a perfect examply why I have a living will, a Do Not Resusitate(sp), and all of my family members know my wishes if I ever become brain dead or otherwise.
Like The Reaper said, "Take care of your affairs....."
Either way its a shitty situation.
Agreed. This is something my wife and I have discussed ad nauseum.
However with this poor women she has the ability to breathe on her own and her heart beats on it's own. She is not technically on life support and there is no "plug" to pull. This is one of those things that if you have a DNR does it truly cover something like this? It's a tough call.
Kyobanim
03-20-2005, 12:20
And this is humane?
"From the report: "Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive . . . at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open-heart surgery. Within the testimony, as part of the hypothetical presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."
RE the painful death: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-asecdying19031905mar19,1,7617250.story
Terri Schiavo eventually will slip into a coma and die after her feeding tube is removed.
It might take days. Or weeks.
Someone with very little brain function such as Schiavo will have no awareness of what is happening as she slowly dies from dehydration.
It is the lack of water -- not food -- that causes death in these cases, said Dr. Chad Kollas, medical director of palliative care for Orlando Regional Healthcare. As the body thirsts, it stops functioning properly.
"Even a healthy person cannot live more than several days without water," Kollas said. "You'll become less and less alert, blood pressure will drop, and essentially, you'll just fade away."
Officials with hospice organizations -- groups that care for dying patients -- say they have treated many terminal people who have chosen to stop nutrition and water. The dying do not experience pain from the lack of nutrients and fluids, said Linda Freda, community-education coordinator for Hospice of the Comforter in Altamonte Springs.
Many will have pain from other conditions, such as end-stage cancer, that need to be treated with pain medications. But the withdrawal of nutrition does not typically require additional pain relievers.
"I can tell you what we know from dealing with dying individuals is that these patients do not report pain or suffering or thirst or hunger," she said. "Eventually, they drift into a coma, and they can die quite comfortably."
Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, do not agree with these views, arguing that the removal of her feeding tube is painful and cruel. In a letter last year to Gov. Jeb Bush, a lawyer for Schiavo's parents wrote that dying by dehydration makes death in the electric chair look like an "act of compassion."
But many in the medical community say that isn't the case.
"I personally don't think this is a very painful way to die," said Dr. Anthony Douglas, a Florida Hospital internal-medicine specialist who practices in Winter Park. "People just feel more and more sleepy and exhausted" as time goes on.
Douglas said within days of stopping fluids, people begin to suffer from an imbalance of sodium in their systems. Without water, sodium levels rise in the body and trigger an even greater demand for fluids. When none is available, the organs stop working properly. Brain cells will perish; the kidneys will shut down.
Death may come in a week, or perhaps a little longer. The progression is highly individualized, said Ellen Bristol, director of access and admissions for Hospice of Lake & Sumter.
She said hospice workers care for patients by making sure they are comfortable, often providing ice chips or moisture around the mouth to relieve the sense of dryness.
Understandably, it's very difficult for people to watch a loved one slip away from them, she said.
"People in this country are making these kinds of decisions day after day in nursing homes and hospitals," Freda, of the Altamonte Springs hospice, said. "It's one of the hardest things for a family."
---------------------------------------
9 different courts have ruled in the husbands favor. that's every court the case has been brought too.
Think about this, do you tell your spose more than you tell your parents, or, would you tell your parents everything you tell your spouse, honestly. If it's going to upset your parents you probably wouldn't say anything to them.
I'm sick of hearing about this case, I'm sick of the government getting involved where they don't belong, I'm sick of the government wasting my tax dollers legislating a single bill just for this one person.
Her ceribral cortex is liquid, let her die.
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 12:34
Sorry I just don't buy in to doctors who say that "she wont feel anything" because they are only making assumptions. Not one of them has ever been in her situation or one even similar to it. There are documents provided by health care officials tht show Terry has responded to stimulus, smiled and even cried. While she may not be 100% functional I have no doubt that she feels pain.
Ambush Master
03-20-2005, 12:46
Sorry I just don't buy in to doctors who say that "she wont feel anything" because they are only making assumptions. Not one of them has ever been in her situation or one even similar to it. There are documents provided by health care officials tht show Terry has responded to stimulus, smiled and even cried. While she may not be 100% functional I have no doubt that she feels pain.
She won't feel a thing if they choose to dope her out !!!
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 13:25
Some facts about Terri. Since Kyo called this a permenant vegitative state I did some looking around and found that it is incorrect in reference to her.
· Terri Schiavo is not a “vegetable,” she is not “brain dead,” and she is not in a persistent vegetative state. She recognizes and responds to others and makes attempts to verbally communicate. Videos and the truth about her condition is available at BlogsforTerri.com and terrisfight.org.
· Terri is not on life support but does receive food and water through a removable tube, which experts testify would not even be necessary if she were given therapy. This assisted feeding is a natural means of preserving life and not a medical act of life support or heroic measures.
· Twelve medical experts and nurses who cared for her confirmed these facts. Video available through BlogsforTerri.com shows Terri responding and interacting with others. Health care workers have testified under oath that she expresses herself using words, such as “mommy” and “help me”. This evidence was not allowed in court by Judge Greer.
· Terri is a person with disabilities who thinks and expresses her moods and desires. She is loved by her family and responds to their visits with smiles and laughter.
· Terri Schiavo may be the victim of ongoing negligence and injustice. She has been denied therapy and rehabilitation by her guardian since 1991. Florida’s guardianship laws REQUIRE that these necessary services be given to her.
· In 1992, Terri’s husband Michael won $1.7 million in negligence lawsuit under the pretext of funding her rehabilitation and care. He testified, “I believe in the vows that I took with my wife. Through sickness, in health, for richer or poorer. I married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that.” Since that time, Terri has received no rehabilitation, all beneficial forms of stimulation (e.g. music) have been prohibited and basic health care, such as treatment for a life threatening urinary tract infection, has been purposefully withheld at Michael’s direction.
· Even though Terri’s husband has started a family of his own with another woman and their two children, he refuses to end his marriage to Terri or relinquish her care to her immediate family.
· Terri’s “collapse” has become controversial after a previously unavailable bone scan surfaced in 2002 which revealed multiple fractures consistent with a traumatic event. To date, no investigation has been conducted to determine the source of Terri’s injuries, but a radiologist gave a sworn statement that the date of those injuries would fall within the period of her mysterious collapse.
· Remarkably, The Florida Courts have sided with Michael, accepting the testimony of two “expert witnesses”, one of whom is a known advocate of “mercy killing”, over that of twelve independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists).
· Without intervention by the Florida Governor and Legislature, Judge George Greer is set to give Michael the legal empowerment to withhold food and water from his wife for the purpose of starving her to death.
· Terri Schiavo deserves to have medical tests and therapy. She does not deserve to be starved and dehydrated to death.
· Advancements in the understanding of brain activity and misdiagnosis and the recent recovery of a patient after 20 years in a persistent vegetative state, further calls into question any decision that would end the life of Terri Schiavo.
As I said before, she has laughed, smiled and cried. Those are not the reactionsod someone who is brain dead or in a permenant vegitative state.
The Reaper
03-20-2005, 13:41
Some facts about Terri. Since Kyo called this a permenant vegitative state I did some looking around and found that it is incorrect in reference to her.
As I said before, she has laughed, smiled and cried. Those are not the reactionsod someone who is brain dead or in a permenant vegitative state.
Not picking sides Brew, or looking for an argument, but those are very biased sources.
The other side has just as compelling evidence that her cerebral cortex; which would be required for thought, self-awareness, and intentional action is damaged, non-functional, and atrophied irreparably.
Sometimes I think that the kids' goldfish is smiling and trying to tell me something too, but that doesn't make it intentional, or indicative of anything other than my desire to see something where it isn't.
TR
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 13:51
http://www.blogsforterri.com/video.php
Watch the videos and tell me that this is someone who does not feel pain oe respond to stimuli. While she cannot take care of herself like you or I, she is very much alive.
The Reaper
03-20-2005, 14:18
Bro, if I ever am like that, I want someone to pull the plug.
IMHO, that is NO way to live.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
03-20-2005, 15:11
If he truly loved her he would have kept his vows.
That is an exceptional kind of love - most people aren't exceptional.
Some facts about Terri. Since Kyo called this a permenant vegitative state I did some looking around and found that it is incorrect in reference to her.
As I said before, she has laughed, smiled and cried. Those are not the reactionsod someone who is brain dead or in a permenant vegitative state.
You obviously have done some one sided research. This woman is the poster child for a persistent vegetative state...
from a web site:
Persistent Vegetative State
A persistent vegetative state, which sometimes follows a coma, refers to a condition in which individuals have lost cognitive neurological function and awareness of the environment but retain noncognitive function and a perserved sleep-wake cycle.
It is sometimes described as when a person is technically alive, but his/her brain is dead. However, that description is not completely accurate. In persistent vegetative state the individual loses the higher cerebral powers of the brain, but the functions of the brainstem, such as respiration (breathing) and circulation, remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli, but the patient does not speak or obey commands. Patients in a vegetative state may appear somewhat normal. They may occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh.
People need to stop thinking of what THEY would want done and start thinking about what this woman may or maynot have wanted. Her husband states she would not have wanted this to have gone on like this. I can tell you I have spoken far more about this type of thing with the Team Sergeant than with my parents... your spouse is your proxy. Did they have a good marriage before, was he caring for her afterwards.... everything points to him being a doting husband. But after a while when you realize she isn't getting better wtih all the treatments and you try to abide by her wishes only to be stopped at every turn.
Why do you believe her parents are not acting on what THEY want rather than what their daughter wants???
In this country people can chose to refuse treatment. Have a good living will and not one that simply says if I am brain dead or impending death...but one that deals with real life situations. The following conditions should all be addressed:
If you have a terminal condition
If you have a medical condition that is worsening with no reasonable chance of recovery
If you are in an irreversible coma, persistent vegetative state, or aother condition where there is no reasonalbe medical liklihood you could be awake and care for yourself
If you would at best wind up in a nursing home, hospital, etc for the rest of your life because you ar eunable to feed/take care of/groom/are for bodily functions, etc...
It all revolves around quality of life issues and everyone has different perceptions as to what makes for a worthwhile life....
My two cents.
AngelsSix
03-20-2005, 16:04
I have to admit, I would not want my spouse to live like that. Nor would I want him to keep me alive in a state like that. I have told many people I know that if I were to be severaly injured by a mortar or a mine and I lose both legs, windex injection RIGHT THERE. Don't give anyone the opportunity to fight over it. Most people couldn't or wouldn't do it, though.
I have a bit of lingering doubt into his true feelings and intentions toward his wife. I feel like he should have just divorced her and went on with his life if that is what he really wanted. No point in lying to about his past, either. I think that if people did a little probing, they might find a pattern of underlying abuse (not necessarily physical) in the relationship. I am thinking that perhaps his affairs outside of the marraige didn't just start when she went down. Who knows? He may have roughed her up and got scared. If I were an insurance investigator I would look into the onset of her illness and do some poking around with neighbors, etc. I would also look into her prior medical history. You might be surprised at what you'd find.
On a more personal note, I would be certain to have a DNR order in place, or at least write my wishes down and let my lawyer keep a copy. I also have a habit of giving my parents copies of everything, just in case someone tries to pull a fast one. Up to and including the fact that I prefer to be cremated, not buried in a cemetary. Ultimately, it will be my spouse that handles it if he outlives me. But your whole family should be aware of your wishes in writing. You can always change your mind.
I have a bit of lingering doubt into his true feelings and intentions toward his wife. I feel like he should have just divorced her and went on with his life if that is what he really wanted. No point in lying to about his past, either. I think that if people did a little probing, they might find a pattern of underlying abuse (not necessarily physical) in the relationship. I am thinking that perhaps his affairs outside of the marraige didn't just start when she went down. Who knows? He may have roughed her up and got scared. If I were an insurance investigator I would look into the onset of her illness and do some poking around with neighbors, etc. I would also look into her prior medical history. You might be surprised at what you'd find.
.
do you truely think that with all that has gone on for the past 7 or so years that people haven't probed?? It is an assumption, I realize, but there must have been NOTHING untold in his past since her parents have not been able to become proxy without him signing it over.
doc t.
Thanks Doc. That is as comprehensive and unpassionate reply as I have seen.
Angels6: I too used to worry more about dismemberment and/or disfigurement than I did death. However, today I see many people who live productive lives after serious wounds. You may want to reconsider.
It is just as important that we consider our loved ones as well as ourselves.
The shame to me is that condemned criminals have more privacy and dignanty than Terri Schiavo.
Thanks Doc. That is as comprehensive and unpassionate reply as I have seen.
.
Is this because I do not agree with you that you feel it is unpassionate?
I deal with this sort of issue everyday. I talk to patients, look at living wills, talk to family members and proxies and decide what patients would and would not want done. My point is that everyone's decisions are different and you CANNOT superimpose your value system on anyone else.....
In medical school they had us watch a movie about a burn survivor with close to 100% total body burns. He survived after a prolonged and painful hospital course.... is married in the movie, has a child, is very productive in society. But his point in making the movie was to tell people that he wishes everyday that the physicians and his family had let him die in the hospital...despite the fulfillment his life now holds for him.
He would chose not to suffer in the hospital even if it meant missing out on what came after. If I remember correctly, he had had a living will and his family did not abide by it.
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 16:47
Doc T,
I obviously bow down to your experience when it comes to the medical field and I will not even try to refute what you have presented medical wise.
However when it comes to her requests Florida law (at the time she was injured) required her wishes to be in writing, they were not. So far only her husband and his family are the ones who make the claims she wished to die. Her friends have refuted that in court citing specific conversations they had in reference to Karen Ann Quinlan.
There is also the legal battle that has been ongoing over how her injuries were caused. Apparently several (12) doctors agree that this is consistent with being choked out and not at all with her ED. Again, I can only go with what I have seen in the documents.
There are also many issues with how the judge refused to hear motions, which is apparently a violation of the Florida constitution.
There is the issue that Michael Schiavo has repeatedly ignored court orders that ordered special care for her and has of yesterday done so again, preventing her family from being able to have access to her. Now I cannot think of a single reason he would keep doing so, but it sounds fishy to me.
I don't make my stance on this from a reigious point of view. While I am a Catholic, I believe strongly in the death penalty. This is about this womens family having a court that is truly unbiased, it is about making sure the orders of the court are followed, all of them not just the ones her "husband" sees fit to follow.
I agree, this is not much of a way to live, but I don't believe the husband one bit when he says that her wish was to not live this way.
This is however a GIANT wake up call for all of us and as you and the TS have discussed it so have my wife and I as well as my family. There should be no mistake when my time comes.
Is this because I do not agree with you that you feel it is unpassionate?
Please accept my statement literally.
Thanks = thanks.
I consider your explaination very complete and comprehensive.
I considered it unencumbered by the passion I have seen in recent posts.
It was meant as a complement.
I'm not sure what you disagree with as far as my statement addressed to you.
Such is the danger of the written word - I guess. :boohoo
Please accept my statement literally.
Thanks = thanks.
I consider your explaination very complete and comprehensive.
I considered it unencumbered by the passion I have seen in recent posts.
It was meant as a complement.
I'm not sure what you disagree with as far as my statement addressed to you.
Such is the danger of the written word - I guess. :boohoo
apology accepted as I misunderstood. Often unpassionate in medicine means uncaring....
my mistake.
doc t
AngelsSix
03-20-2005, 20:00
It is an assumption, I realize, but there must have been NOTHING untold in his past since her parents have not been able to become proxy without him signing it over.
doc t.
I am not sure exactly what you mean here, but I value your opinion as a Doc. The fact is, I have read both sides and unfortunately there seems to be some disagreement as to exactly how Terri got in the condition she is in to begin with. Of course none of us were there, but how ironic is it that she supposedly had an eating disorder and now they are starving her to death?? The whole thing seems ludicris to me. I think if he really had her best interests in mind AND that of her family, he would simply get the divorce (would have cost him much less in the end) and go on with his life as planned. But the way he actually went about it gnaws on me a bit.
posted by Doc T:
People need to stop thinking of what THEY would want done and start thinking about what this woman may or maynot have wanted. Her husband states she would not have wanted this to have gone on like this.
Agreed. However, why would he let her live like this so long?? Apparently there were no treatments, etc. being carried out. the hospice was caring for her very basic needs, no more. Again, we aren't there and haven't seen what is really happening, but what if it is true?? What if the money he got in the suit ran out and now he doesn't want the "burden" because he has "moved on" with his life?? Shouldn't he have expressed Terri's wishes before all of this began?? Funny he didn't mention it during the lawsuits.
I am not personally attacking anyone; just playing the lawyer for the other side. Like I said before, I sure as hell will be making sure that it is in writing with someone close to make sure that this wouldn't happen to my family.
brewmonkey
03-20-2005, 20:37
A6- I agree, none of us were there so it is indeed a tough call. Hit google though and look up Michael Schiavo and Domestic Violence. You might be surprised at not only his past but the judge who originally heard the case. Of course you sometimes have to decide what you are reading is biased or actually "are you biased" so you stick to certain sites.
Here is an interesting one and a lot of the content is available through some other sites.
http://www.americandaily.com/article/6885
On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.
Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.
Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.
For those who do not know, Dr. Baden is a world famous pathologist with an extensive background and when it comes to many medical issues, he is the authority.
Like I said though, YMMV.
Peregrino
03-20-2005, 21:33
The point now is "persistant vegitative state". God keep her soul because it's obviously not in residence in her body. Let her die with as much dignity as can be found in this tragedy. When her body has "died" if you still feel her husband was the proximate cause of the condition that eventually resulted in her death - then try him for murder. There is no statute of limitations for murder. I'll bet you can't find a court anywhere to hear the case - let alone convict him. This has become a theater of the absurd. I keep a living will and I've already signed one DNR. God forbid I ever wind up like she has. :mad: Peregrino
AngelsSix
03-20-2005, 22:15
Yeah, Brew, I like Doc Baden, I have seen/heard him on numerous occasions, he has my respect.
Just think of it like this.....'ole Petersen was pretty cool and collected right up until he was convicted. No one suspected him, but he turned out to be a POS. You never know.....I love forensic psychology!! Can you say sociopath??
brewmonkey
03-21-2005, 00:44
Yeah, Brew, I like Doc Baden, I have seen/heard him on numerous occasions, he has my respect.
Just think of it like this.....'ole Petersen was pretty cool and collected right up until he was convicted. No one suspected him, but he turned out to be a POS. You never know.....I love forensic psychology!! Can you say sociopath??
When Dr. Baden is on a show I am glued to it. When my wife and I were going to school most of our electives were in forensic sciences. Some pretty cool stuff as well they show you to think out side the way you normally might. Has many applications in every situation, not just forensics too!
I have told many people I know that if I were to be severaly injured by a mortar or a mine and I lose both legs, windex injection RIGHT THERE.
Like Terry said, its your choice to make, but I'd recommend you reconsider just what it would take to make you not 'you' anymore, and life not worth continuing.
The Reaper
03-21-2005, 18:01
Like Terry said, its your choice to make, but I'd recommend you reconsider just what it would take to make you not 'you' anymore, and life not worth continuing.
Agreed.
Loss of legs is survivable with a decent quality of life.
Brain dead, PVS, or quadraplegic, pull the plug.
Just my .02.
TR
Ambush Master
03-21-2005, 18:27
Well on the drive home Sean Hannity did an interview with a Doc, I missed his name, that was nominated for a Nobel Prize for his advancements in Rehab of people with brain injuries. To make a long story short, this guy interviewed her for 10, hours and reviewed all of her records. He stated that at one point she was almost speaking and was getting around with the aid of a walker, but her husband refused treatment when she had several different infections and that that is why she is the way she is today !!! This guy also said that she is NOT in a vegetative state !!!! He said she is almost blind, from the infections and much much more. I hope his statements make it to the surface.
Keep your eyes open for it !!!
Later
Martin
Well on the drive home Sean Hannity did an interview with a Doc, I missed his name, that was nominated for a Nobel Prize for his advancements in Rehab of people with brain injuries. To make a long story short, this guy interviewed her for 10, hours and reviewed all of her records. He stated that at one point she was almost speaking and was getting around with the aid of a walker, but her husband refused treatment when she had several different infections and that that is why she is the way she is today !!! This guy also said that she is NOT in a vegetative state !!!! He said she is almost blind, from the infections and much much more. I hope his statements make it to the surface.
Keep your eyes open for it !!!
Later
Martin
Often Sean Hannity will have his radio guests/interviews on the news show on Fox in the evening. I wouldn't be surprised to see that segment tonight.
A6 I just read a story of a PJ (IIRC) who lost a leg in the war, he is back on jump status (has jumped twice already)...one can never say never. And for that one story there are hundreds of others. But I agree with TR on the rest. I'm preparing my living will...though my family all knows verbally it's best to have it in writing.
Ambush Master
03-21-2005, 18:52
Often Sean Hannity will have his radio guests/interviews on the news show on Fox in the evening. I wouldn't be surprised to see that segment tonight.
Yes, he is going to be on. If you watch it, please pass on this Doc's name !! I don't have cable TV.
Thanks
Martin
The Reaper
03-21-2005, 19:02
I have told many people I know that if I were to be severaly injured by a mortar or a mine and I lose both legs, windex injection RIGHT THERE.
Dana Bowman is a friend. He seems to be doing pretty well.
http://www.danabowman.com/
TR
AM...the Doc's name is Dr. Bill Hammesfahr.
Here is his website.
http://www.hni-online.com/
Founder of the Institute
Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize for his work in Medicine and Physiology in 1999. The Nomination was for work started in 1994. In 2000, this work resulted in approval for the first patent in history granted for the treatment of neurological diseases including coma, stroke, brain injury, cerebral palsy, hypoxic injuries and other neurovascular disorders with medications that restore blood flow to the brain. It was extended to treat successfully disabilities including ADD, ADHD, Dyslexia, Tourette's and Autism as well as behaviorally and emotionally disturbed children, seizures and severe migraines.
The federal government has recognized Dr. Hammesfahr’s clinical expertise, naming him Reviewer and Chief Reviewer for evaluation and funding for new clinical research programs. He has also been a court-recognized expert and a court-ordered treating physician for these techniques that he pioneered. He has lectured and published extensively.
Dr. Hammesfahr graduated from the Northwestern Honors Program in Medical Education in 1982, a program which only accepts a small number of high school students directly into medical school. He then trained in Neurosurgery and Neurology at the Medical College in Virginia. He has received Board Certification in both Neurology and Pain Management.
Dana Bowman is a friend. He seems to be doing pretty well.
http://www.danabowman.com/
TR
If I ever think I "can't" do something I'll be referring to your friend's site. Thanks TR, and thank you Dana Bowman.
If I ever think I "can't" do something I'll be referring to your friend's site. Thanks TR, and thank you Dana Bowman.
I watched Dana's first jump post accident. There must have been a lot of pollen floating in the air because many of the spectators had watery eyes.
Doc
What an honor and awe inspiring event that must have been Doc. I think I had some irritants in the air last night as I read through the site...
The Reaper
03-22-2005, 12:24
We carried SFC Bowman and his wheelchair around the Manassas battlefield for two days right after he came out of the hospital.
I felt privileged to assist.
He is one hell of a soldier.
TR
"He's not heavy....he's my Brother..."