Acog's and CQB

[BadMuther]

I picked up a TA-31F awhile back for a smoking $500. Took it out last weekend and fell in love with it. Seems like a great all purpose sight, except.....

I practiced clearing my house with it on and definitely do not like the sight for CQB. The 4x magnification screws me up. Guess the "Bindon Aiming Concept" doesn't work as fast as it needs to on my eyes. Much prefer a Reflex/aimpoint/eotech for cqb stuff.

Xdeth on Snet recommended turning the ACOG into an OEG for CQB by covering the front lens. Not a bad idea. I've seen the mini holosights on top of acogs, but that doesn't look like my cup of tea.

I'm thinking about heading to the box (site security and limited convoy stuff) and was contemplating bringing this along. I have no idea how much close range stuff contractors do and whether or not I'd be better off with an eo tech. Just looking at my options sight wise. IMHO, for anything other then CQB Ranges this site is the shiznit.



I'm looking for input from people that have used the ACOG at CQB distances and what your experience was.

[Air.177]

I picked up a TA-31F awhile back for a smoking $500. Took it out last weekend and fell in love with it. Seems like a great all purpose sight, except.....

I practiced clearing my house with it on and definitely do not like the sight for CQB. The 4x magnification screws me up. Guess the "Bindon Aiming Concept" doesn't work as fast as it needs to on my eyes. Much prefer a Reflex/aimpoint/eotech for cqb stuff.

Xdeth on Snet recommended turning the ACOG into an OEG for CQB by covering the front lens. Not a bad idea. I've seen the mini holosights on top of acogs, but that doesn't look like my cup of tea.

I'm thinking about heading to the box (site security and limited convoy stuff) and was contemplating bringing this along. I have no idea how much close range stuff contractors do and whether or not I'd be better off with an eo tech. Just looking at my options sight wise. IMHO, for anything other then CQB Ranges this site is the shiznit.



I'm looking for input from people that have used the ACOG at CQB distances and what your experience was.

One of the "Game Gun" concepts that could apply here is to mount a set of pistol sights at approximately 1 o'clock on your handguard (works best on a freefloat tube) and turn the rifle counterclockwise to use the irons. I have used this system on several rifles mostly equiped with PRI or JP float tubes, but I plan to mount something similar on my rifle with the Briley Carbon fiber tube I recently acquired. That is one option anyway.

[BadMuther]

One of the "Game Gun" concepts that could apply here is to mount a set of pistol sights at approximately 1 o'clock on your handguard (works best on a freefloat tube) and turn the rifle counterclockwise to use the irons. I have used this system on several rifles mostly equiped with PRI or JP float tubes, but I plan to mount something similar on my rifle with the Briley Carbon fiber tube I recently acquired. That is one option anyway.

Thanks a friend did mention that to me.

[The Reaper]

That scope does not lend itself to shooting well covered. That is a trick to use on the Reflex and non-magnifed optics.

For the TA-31, you should mount it out as far from the eye as eye relief will allow, maybe one notch further, practice tracking targets with both eyes open and not looking directly at the target through the optic. When you see the dot over the target, stop and focus on looking through the tube at the target and reticle. Basically, you get the reticle floating like a dot sight while scanning, and you "zoom in on it" when you stop and look at the target through the reticle. Works great for me.

Most people pick up on it with an hour or two practice. Some take longer, some never can.

If the optic does not work for you, and it is in good shape, PM me what you want for it in cash or trade.

Good luck.

TR

[Doc]

I'm looking for input from people that have used the ACOG at CQB distances and what your experience was.

Personally I've never seen an ACOG system used in room clearing.

The beauty of the rail system is to place the sight system you need on the weapon at the ORP. Could you change it if you have the time and the need?

Sure.

I love the little black gun. I'm buying one of the civilian models as soon as my gunsmith gets it in.

JMO.

Good luck and be careful over there.

Doc

[Roguish Lawyer]

If the optic does not work for you, and it is in good shape, PM me what you want for it in cash or trade.


Me too. I need one.

[Archangel]

The beauty of the rail system is to place the sight system you need on the weapon at the ORP. Could you change it if you have the time and the need?


Agreed. I recommend investing in A.R.M.S. mounts so your sights will all return to zero when you switch them back & forth.

[BadMuther]

Thanks for the input fellas. I'll move it fwd TR and practice what you said (If I'm underdstanding you correctly, if not I'll ask for clarification.)

It's a great sight and I by no means want to get rid of it! :D

[NousDefions794]

BM,

September 2004 I was fortunate enough to help test some possible additions to the SOPMOD kit for the M4. One of the items I fell in love with was a JPoint sight attached to an ACOG. It is a small red dot sight placed on top of the ACOG. It worked great for CQB and it is very small. I used it for flat range drills, moving and shooting and finally CQB runs in the house. My only gripe was that the JPoint sight is above the ACOG. Instead of a cheek to stock, I had to force myself to get a chin to stock. BUT because of this I had great peripheral view.

http://www.jprifles.com/Jpoint.shtml

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Looks real interesting! I'd be more interested in its application to a Glock pistol, like my G 20. but it gets sort of pricy, when one adds up the sight, mount and G'smithing. :rolleyes:

[bberkley]

Looks real interesting! I'd be more interested in its application to a Glock pistol, like my G 20. but it gets sort of pricy, when one adds up the sight, mount and G'smithing. :rolleyes:

Trip_Wire, are you referrring to the Jpoint on a Glock? You don't need a gunsmith. They make dovetail mounts just for the Glock for the Jpoint (Optima 2000).

I might even have one laying around in my bin of unused parts. I know I have a weaver-type mount for one.

[BadMuther]

ND794,

Thanks for the input, I've seen those before. I was just concerned (like you) about the additional height on top of the gun.


TR, I attempted to practice what you said but I was having some troubles.

I find when I use the ACOG I need to close my non-shooting eye to use the sight effectively. Otherwise it's like attempting to drive while looking through a pair of binos-that's about the best way to describe it.

[The Reaper]

ND794,

Thanks for the input, I've seen those before. I was just concerned (like you) about the additional height on top of the gun.


TR, I attempted to practice what you said but I was having some troubles.

I find when I use the ACOG I need to close my non-shooting eye to use the sight effectively. Otherwise it's like attempting to drive while looking through a pair of binos-that's about the best way to describe it.

You may be one of the very few who cannot get their eyes and brain to work properly with the ACOG.

Make sure that you have the optic up and scan without looking directly through the scope. Keep both eyes open and focus long. You will be aware of the dot (chevron) floating in your field of view. When your eyes pick up the target, you will be able to see the reticle peripherally and stop on the target, you would break the trigger then on a close engagement. Anything beyond CQB range, once you aligh roughly on the target as described above, your dominant eye then looks through the optic to focus on the target, and it will look like you just "zoomed-in" on it. Once your reticle is aligned, you can engage.

Works for me, every time, and is very fast.

TR

[BadMuther]

You may be one of the very few who cannot get their eyes and brain to work properly with the ACOG.

Make sure that you have the optic up and scan without looking directly through the scope. Keep both eyes open and focus long. You will be aware of the dot (chevron) floating in your field of view. When your eyes pick up the target, you will be able to see the reticle peripherally and stop on the target, you would break the trigger then on a close engagement. Anything beyond CQB range, once you aligh roughly on the target as described above, your dominant eye then looks through the optic to focus on the target, and it will look like you just "zoomed-in" on it. Once your reticle is aligned, you can engage.

Works for me, every time, and is very fast.

TR

I think I might be one of the ones it doesn't work on.


When I have both eyes open I get a distorted magnified view. The ACOG seems to work best for me when I use it with my non-shooting eye closed.

Thanks for the help Sir.

TR, when you look through an ACOG are you saying that the view is normal until you focus on the target??

[Smokin Joe]

I think I might be one of the ones it doesn't work on.


When I have both eyes open I get a distorted magnified view. The ACOG seems to work best for me when I use it with my non-shooting eye closed.

Thanks for the help Sir.

TR, when you look through an ACOG are you saying that the view is normal until you focus on the target??


Send it to me, I'll make sure your sight isn't jacked up. :D Or I'll trade you my TAO1NSN for yours

[The Reaper]

TR, when you look through an ACOG are you saying that the view is normal until you focus on the target??



I don't look through the ACOG until the reticle is on the target.

TR

[BadMuther]

For the TA-31, you should mount it out as far from the eye as eye relief will allow, maybe one notch further, practice tracking targets with both eyes open and not looking directly at the target through the optic. When you see the dot over the target, stop and focus on looking through the tube at the target and reticle. Basically, you get the reticle floating like a dot sight while scanning, and you "zoom in on it" when you stop and look at the target through the reticle. Works great for me.

This was the part that was confusing me Sir. Specifically, "practice tracking targets with both eyes open and not looking directly at the target through the optic. "

[The Reaper]

This was the part that was confusing me Sir. Specifically, "practice tracking targets with both eyes open and not looking directly at the target through the optic. "

You can see it, you just don't focus on it.

TR

[GackMan]

BM - you wouldn't happen to be left eye dominant, would you?

[Cincinnatus]

TR,

I'm curious as to your opinion on benefits and tradeoffs of using an ACOG as a do everything optic on an M4, or in my case (being a civvy) an M4gery. If the right ACOG is chosen, and it's mounted in the proper position for optimal eye relief, how close is it to an EOTech or Aimpoint in terms of speed of targert acquisition?

I mounted a Loopy 1-4x on a rifle some time ago, after reading about COL Cooper's scout rifle concept. I apparently chose a suboptimal optic (LER vs. EER, or something) and while I could get good hits, it was never as fast as I'd hoped. Last summer I was fooling around with someone else's scout and his optic was MUCH faster, or rather I was much faster w/ the optic he'd installed.

Does a properly mounted ACOG offer the speed of acquisition of a red dot sight w/ the benefits of magnification when desired. If so, does the magnification matter greatly, i.e., is the 2.5x which COL Cooper recommended the ideal? Is the Compact ACOG (IIRC the tube diameter is the same as the Loopy Scout scope) as good a choice or is the wider FoV of the standard ACOG worth the additional weight of the optic.

TIA

[The Reaper]

Cincinnatus:

First, do some research here, and some background reading on the BAC. I do not have the time or inclination to repeat everything available elsewhere here.

I find the TA-31, which we are discussing here, with the donut reticle, just about as fast as a zero mag dot sight for me. Your mileage may vary.

IIRC, COL Cooper's recommendation is based on a standard crosshair reticle used as a scope is normally used.

I have made my preferences in optics known for various weapons on a number of threads here. Use the Search button.

Good luck.

TR

[Cincinnatus]

TR,

I tried to read all the archived posts before signing on to the forum and thought I had done so. I'll go back over them and post again if I still have questions.

From what I've read of COL Cooper's writings, you're correct that he was discussing a standard reticle. It's been awhile since I've read it, but I think I have the "Art of the Rifle" around here somewhere. IIRC, it was the COL's feeling that magnification greater than 2.5x was a detriment in a "Scout" type application. If the magnification exceeded 2.5x the ability to instantly interpolate and seamlessly switch focus, from scanning over/ through the optic, to the reticle was impaired.

My very limited experience suggests that this is correct. FWIW, the gent whose rifle I spoke of using above felt the same. He's a former SBS sniper, so I'm inclined to think he knows of what he speaks. I don't know to what degree this would carry over to the BAC.

Thanks again.

[bk1133]

I have a TA31F, with a red chevron reticle. It took me a bit longer to accomplish the BAC method. I don't shoot as often as I like. The red chevron stands out more than the donut, at least for me. Trijicons website has a simulation an explanation of the method.

[Psywar1-0]

After I went shooting with Basensukie's(yea Im mispelled it) Team Sgt, and watching him do CQB drills with an ACOG I went home and tried it myself. With enough training you can shoot both eyes open at close range with the ACOG NSN just as good as with an Aimpoint or Eotech.

It just takes range time. The added benifit of having a magnfied optic when you really need it great.

Its good to see that the old Dr Optic on top of an NSN idea from ARFKOM has made its way over to the Mil side of the house.

[soldierboy3502]

Badmuther,

I used the TAO1NSN for CQB at the start of OIF. What helped was the iron sights on top. I've also used the EO Tech in the past and its perfect for CQB. Anyways, a couple of the guys at work have their own personal NSNs and they all tend to focus on that front sight on the ACOG to get the job done. Utimately, if ur getting into anything that might bring your target closer than 5 or 10 meters, then all you really have to do is point and shoot...lol. But I agree with you about your sight. ACOG is a great optic.

[The Reaper]

SB:

Thank you for your service.

Please read the stickies and introduce yourself in the proper place before you post further.

I like the ACOG as well.

TR

[Sanwald]

I always liked the ACOG for longer distance shooting. Without glasses I can't even see a 300 meter target with Iron sghts, forget about hitting it. but my vision isn't bad enough to wear glasses all the time, and it was hasssle wearing them while humping a ruck. So I used the ACOG. and it worked well. But for close range, instinctive shooting an aimpoint works better.
You lose the problem of magnification in one eye and not the other. Sight pictures easier to aquire. With practice, and a good zero, you can hit 150-200 meter targets. but close in you'll be faster and more accurate with an aimpoint.

It's also important to have a sight that allows you to shoot while moving. too many people walk, stop and shoot, then walk again, It's a technique but if you you'll have an advantage, and be harder to hit, if you don't have to stop.

Remember, you're only as good as your first shot.

[The Reaper]

Sanwald:

Not to belabor the obvious, but you too, continue posting without reading the instructions here or filling in your profile.

Do as I asked soldierboy to do and get with the program.

TR

[Detcord]

BM:

Another strategy is to carry an 18"-20" upper with the ACOG and stow it in a ruck or gearbag in your SUV or whatever you will be travelling in and use something else for CQB type stuff. If you need to take longer range shots, pop off the short bbl upper and mount the ACOG upper. This way it's like having 2 weapons in one.

Good luck!!!

[lurp]

Are anyone using the Optima-2000 reddot, how does it work on top of the Acog?

[BadMuther]

BM,

September 2004 I was fortunate enough to help test some possible additions to the SOPMOD kit for the M4. One of the items I fell in love with was a JPoint sight attached to an ACOG. It is a small red dot sight placed on top of the ACOG. It worked great for CQB and it is very small. I used it for flat range drills, moving and shooting and finally CQB runs in the house. My only gripe was that the JPoint sight is above the ACOG. Instead of a cheek to stock, I had to force myself to get a chin to stock. BUT because of this I had great peripheral view.

http://www.jprifles.com/Jpoint.shtml

As an update to a 5 year old thread, last year I mounted a Jpoint on top of my acog and just love it!

I'm purchasing another 4x32 acog (unsure what exact model #) for $500 and I'm hoping it's also a TA-31F!

[Stras]

As an update to a 5 year old thread, last year I mounted a Jpoint on top of my acog and just love it!

I'm purchasing another 4x32 acog (unsure what exact model #) for $500 and I'm hoping it's also a TA-31F!

I ran that system in OIF III and IV, ACOG with JPOINT, and iron sights flipped up at all times. Worked flawlessly.

They have new ACOGs out now with the red dot, or triangle (depending on what you want) in them, which negates the need for the JPOINT on your personal civilian weapons.

I'm currently saving up for one of them for the AR that is currently in the "build" stage. They run around $750.

The biggest issue with the JPOINT mounted on top of the ACOG is the Sight to Barrel height (6-8 inches) and how that is affected at distances. There is little differences at under 25 meters, but definite issues over 50 meters, causing you calculate math in your head while simultaneously engaging targets (easy on a flat range, little more difficult on the two-way live fire range).

[blue02hd]

BM,

With all respect to the other posters here on this thread that actually have used the ACOG/ EOTECH/ Red dot variants, I simply think you are trying to make applesauce with bananas.

CAN you use an ACOG in CQB, well yes, but it is not designed for that application. CAN you offset a second sight system on your forearm, yes, but I have yet to encounter a military ran training program that teaches that, therefore I will not even consider it.

If you are looking for a "CQB" sight then there are many to choose from, but the ACOG is simply not one of them.

Nor is an EOTECH going to give you a 4X Magnification to help you reach out to the upper limits of an M4.

I personally choose to go with an EOTECH or red dot variant versus the ACOG's magification due to the faster reaction time when engaging threats under 25 meters. As distance provides more time to react, and time is our friend, the choice for me is a sound one.

So I guess you need to ask: What application are you trying to master?

Hope this helps.

[BadMuther]

BM,

With all respect to the other posters here on this thread that actually have used the ACOG/ EOTECH/ Red dot variants, I simply think you are trying to make applesauce with bananas.

CAN you use an ACOG in CQB, well yes, but it is not designed for that application. CAN you offset a second sight system on your forearm, yes, but I have yet to encounter a military ran training program that teaches that, therefore I will not even consider it.

If you are looking for a "CQB" sight then there are many to choose from, but the ACOG is simply not one of them.

Nor is an EOTECH going to give you a 4X Magnification to help you reach out to the upper limits of an M4.

I personally choose to go with an EOTECH or red dot variant versus the ACOG's magification due to the faster reaction time when engaging threats under 25 meters. As distance provides more time to react, and time is our friend, the choice for me is a sound one.

So I guess you need to ask: What application are you trying to master?

Hope this helps.

Sir,

Some people can use the "Bindon Aiming Concept" that allows them to use a acog topped rifle at CQB distances-I am not one of those people, though I wish that I were. So a Mini Red Dot on top of the acog suits my needs as a best "all around" combo.

FYI, the acog I picked up for $500 was a Ta-31f. :D

[Ken Brock]

I ditched my EOTech for a Mini-ACOG

since it only has 1.5x magnification it works great for what I do

If I was using it for longer distances I would have went with a 4x