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Smokin Joe
03-15-2005, 04:39
Anyone have any tricks or tactics to beat tunnel vision?

NousDefionsDoc
03-15-2005, 06:33
Train hard and get hit a lot.

Smokin Joe
03-15-2005, 06:53
Train hard and get hit a lot.


Umkay...what about when guns come into play?

I have been told to constantly scan from side to side and in the few times that I have started to get tunnel vision (from real fights) it has worked.

Just for clarification I rarely (if ever) experience tunnel vision while training....I think it is the subconscience kicking in and not allowing a true fight or flight response to occur, because in the back of my head the real stress isn't there.

Am I just not training hard enough???

NousDefionsDoc
03-15-2005, 07:18
I wouldn't say not training hard enough, perhaps you just need more stress. This is just my opinion, but tunnel vision is induced by stress. So the more you train under more stress, the more you will adapt. That is why the search for more realistic training is ever ongoing.
Knowing what causes it and that it is happening is half the battle.

Scanning, continuous movement, etc. are all good practices and help.

Try doing SIMs with more than one opponent. If you lose, you have to bend over and take a free one in the ass. Very good for inducing stress. :)

Smokin Joe
03-15-2005, 07:49
Try doing SIMs with more than one opponent. If you lose, you have to bend over and take a free one in the ass. Very good for inducing stress. :)

NO FRIGGIN WAY!!! :D

I will take a free SIM round in the leg, arm, chest, or back, but I ain't bending over and taking anything in the ass.

Razor
03-15-2005, 11:43
NO FRIGGIN WAY!!! :D

...but I ain't bending over and taking anything in the ass

...ever again. :p

Peregrino
03-15-2005, 11:51
SJ - Maybe the threat of "one up the A**" is what you need to kick in the next level of stress. :D Seriously, this is one of the issues I'm working on for TR. The short answer (not mine - remember, there's no such thing as an original thought - especially in this line of work) is: "We train to overcome - not to enhance - instinct". Check out the book "Training at the Speed of Life" by Kenneth R. Murray, available from http://www.armiger.net. It's a good discussion of reality based training. TR loaned me his copy and I've been browsing it as time permits. Additionally, the book and website both have quality lists of other books that will aid you in your never-ending quest "young Jedi" (yes - very tongue in cheek). :p Most training providers/programs say the same things, the issue is "which flavor gets the message across to you the best". Force on force training with marking cartridges is the only non-lethal labratory where you can BEGIN to explore efficacy of principles and tactics. Probably preaching to the choir but please do not confuse gaming (paintball) with training. Quality training (and a good team) will make you a better paintballer but being a good paintballer does not mean you have what it takes to survive a lethal encounter. Issues like "cover for paintball/MILES is not necessarilly cover for bullets" among other deficiencies in that training model. Another critical and often overlooked factor is "training scars" - bad habits imprinted during training that can get you killed in the real world. Just some of the stuff you will wind up exploring as you find the answers to your question. Note - "as you find the answers". Anybody can point you in a direction - only you can make the answers your own. FWIW - Peregrino

The Reaper
03-15-2005, 11:51
Practicing scanning and force on force with Sims.

TR

Smokin Joe
03-15-2005, 12:24
As always thank you Gentlemen.

Team Sergeant
03-15-2005, 13:01
Anyone have any tricks or tactics to beat tunnel vision?

Yes I do, buy some raffle tickets and we'll go shooting again! :D


Team Sergeant

QRQ 30
03-15-2005, 13:41
Check with the pilots. I had an XO once who said they learned to be aware of everything in the periphery while looking in a particular direction. Scanning can overcome limited field of vision but having a wide field of vision is what I would think you are looking for.

OTOH try oxygen. You may be suffering from CO poisoning. :D

One of the most totally aware peoplreI ever saw was Bobby Hurley who played point guard for Duke. He seemed to have 360 degree awaremess. To bad he couldn't drive. He went to Sacramento (I think) and wrecked his truck and ended his vareer.

NousDefionsDoc
03-15-2005, 14:49
Not up the rectum - in the ass. It's also a good way to get faster from the draw. Draw against a partner and fire. The loser has to turn around and take one in the cheek. Very effective. You will grow eyes in the back of your head and be fast like Billy The Kid after about three go 'rounds. ;)

Penalties for losing are very stress inducing - the greater the penalty, the more the stress. Of course the ultimate penalty in a firefight is the ultimate stress inducer - but dedicated training partners can be hard to find. :mad:

The 18D course used to culminate in a trauma exercise. Pass or fail. If you passed, odds were great you would wear a beret shortly. If you failed, you went "Needs of the Army". Whole thing had a max time limit of 20 minutes. Relatively simple exercise practiced a thousand times during the course. Except for under fire, I have never experienced or witnessed anything else like it in my life. It will definitely separate the wheat from the chaff. :lifter

NousDefionsDoc
03-15-2005, 14:54
Yes I do, buy some raffle tickets and we'll go shooting again! :D


Team Sergeant

Joe, if the TS moves out of your field a vision with a 2x4 in his hand - my advice would be to duck immediately after taking the shot. Trust me, I'm a medic, I know things.... :)

Peregrino
03-15-2005, 16:05
Joe, if the TS moves out of your field a vision with a 2x4 in his hand - my advice would be to duck immediately after taking the shot. Trust me, I'm a medic, I know things.... :)


There you go with that "Five Rings" thing again.

Roguish Lawyer
03-15-2005, 21:30
Joe:

I'll do this exercise with you under TS's supervision. No video! :munchin

RL

Smokin Joe
03-15-2005, 23:35
Joe:

I'll do this exercise with you under TS's supervision. No video! :munchin

RL

Your on Counsler. :lifter

TS,

I will PM you my order.

Smokin Joe
03-15-2005, 23:38
Joe, if the TS moves out of your field a vision with a 2x4 in his hand - my advice would be to duck immediately after taking the shot. Trust me, I'm a medic, I know things.... :)

I think this would be a great excersise to induce flinching and stress. :D

I'll take the stress hope I can beat the flinching.

Roguish Lawyer
03-16-2005, 01:12
Your on Counsler. :lifter

TS,

I will PM you my order.

Should we sell tickets? LMAO

Smokin Joe
03-16-2005, 02:10
Should we sell tickets? LMAO

Absolutely! :D

alphamale
03-16-2005, 07:00
The short answer is: "We train to overcome - not to enhance - instinct".Is the rationale for this: because instinct is pure survival and survival reactions are counter to... responding with specific reactions needed to deal with the situation and survive.


Another critical and often overlooked factor is "training scars" - bad habits imprinted during training that can get you killed in the real world.From technique or things being too consistent?


Just some of the stuff you will wind up exploring as you find the answers to your question. Note - "as you find the answers". Anybody can point you in a direction - only you can make the answers your own. FWIW - PeregrinoWell said.

FrontSight

Peregrino
03-16-2005, 08:48
Is the rationale for this: because instinct is pure survival and survival reactions are counter to... responding with specific reactions needed to deal with the situation and survive.
From technique or things being too consistent?
Well said.

FrontSight

FS - You're trying to get me in trouble with the boss. Short answers - cause I'm on the clock and HE's watching (besides I need to be able to articulate this stuff in front of hostile audiences anyway).

#1. Instinct is self-survival. This is the "Fight or Flight" - or catatonic withdrawal lecture. You've heard most of it before. The psycho-babble du jour is BAR - Body Alarm Reaction. (This launches 30 minute lecture on autonomic nervous system w/discussion of sympathetic/parasympathetic aspects.) The only thing important to an operator is perceptual narrowing: tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and "snapshot" observations. Those are the reactions that take the combatant out of the game (OODA Loop stuff). Every encounter is potentially lethal and every situation is a complex chain of critical decisions that usually have to be made under extreme stress. Instinct causes the combatant to focus on the most obvious threat, which may not be the most lethal one. That's why SJ wants tips to overcome tunnel vision. The only answer is training. Quality training seeks to overcome instinct by habituating participants to perform under stress. Progressive, sequential training culminating in Force on Force, reality based scenarios provide the optimal situations to force students to "keep their heads in the game" and not rely on instinct. Stress levels should be gradually escalated so that students learn coping skills and are not overwhelmed by unsolvable scenarios. Bottom line - It's all a head game, like any game practice improves performance.

#2. Training scars are the result of putting artificialities in training scenarios. Train the way you'll fight because you're going to fight the way you trained. My favorite example is the LEO found dead at the scene of the crime with empty shell casings in his pocket because when he trained at the range he didn't want to have to police the brass - so when he needed to reload for real he did the same thing he practiced - and got killed. Another pet peeve of mine is tactical reloads. Save them for when you're in a lull (behind cover w/the cavalry laying down suppressive fire) - otherwise dump the expended mag, reload, and continue to fight. If you win, you can go back and police the mags, if not it won't matter - at least not to you.

#3. Thanks - we try hard. FWIW - Peregrino

Smokin Joe
03-16-2005, 11:16
Thanks Peregrino!

FS,

His answer is why I ask training and TTP's questions here and not on other boards. These guys know the game better than anyone else out there. If you want to learn how to be a buddist you go see the Dalai Lama, if you want to learn how to make Blades you go see the Blademaster, and if you want to learn how to win Fights (including Gunfights) you come see these guys. ;)

CPTAUSRET
03-16-2005, 12:03
I will relate this to flying in combat.

All your senses are on full full alert. You are aware of every sight, sound, vibration, fluctuation in any guage, movement on the ground, movement in the air (a midair would ruin your day), weapon flashes, tracers, engine RPM, engine temp, and pressure, transmission temp, and pressure, beeping in the earphones meaning you are being tracked on someone's radar, looking for smoke trails ie RPG's, all of these become second nature.

All the while you are lowlevelling (NOE) reading an out of date map, listening to three different radios FM, UHF, VHF, (seemingly with constant chatter on each one) and monitoring Guard channel for any SOS calls. Your purpose is to provide CAS for Americans in Distress, once in the AO you must establish physical contact with the good guys, asking for smoke, you perceive 4 purple smokes, your guy only popped one, you stay in contact with him having him vector you closer to his position, if it is during the hours of darkness you are provided with a further set of problems. Since you haven't established the good guys location you are at the mercy of any bad guy who siezes the opportunity to light you up, you dare not return fire for fear of hitting friendlies. Once you have the good guys fixed, and depending on their position, you deal death and destruction to the badguys, I have on more than one occasion hovered my Cobra directly over the good guys, and lit up the "Little F*ckers". At this point the guys below you are usually screaming that they are taking incoming, when in fact it is hot brass raining down on their helmets and going down their collars.

I wrote more than I had planned, but it is a glimpse into the day of an old time gunpilot.

Terry

tracer
10-10-2005, 22:19
Umkay...what about when guns come into play?

I have been told to constantly scan from side to side and in the few times that I have started to get tunnel vision (from real fights) it has worked.

Just for clarification I rarely (if ever) experience tunnel vision while training....I think it is the subconscience kicking in and not allowing a true fight or flight response to occur, because in the back of my head the real stress isn't there.

Am I just not training hard enough???


A training tool that I have found useful in the past with getting over tunnel vision and to support the need to scan is train with a pro mask on. At the time I had the personel take the filter off of their gas mask. The intent on using the gas mask this way was to narrow the field of view and with the canister/filter off there was normal breathing. I had them use M40 masks. I know there are several masks out there with different fields of view, but the idea may still work for you.

G
10-13-2005, 19:49
Terry

I have massive respect for pilots.

After doing some time as an observer in a police chopper - I was always amazed by the pilots ability to fly the chopper around buildings in the city in a way that allowed me to see what was going on on the ground all the while simultaneously monitoring and responding to multiple radio channels (and understanding what was going on on each channel).

I have never met anyone before or since with more SA than those pilots.

G

Guy
10-13-2005, 20:57
Anyone have any tricks or tactics to beat tunnel vision?At least you recognized that...you have tunnel vision!

The book "On Combat" has some excellent chapters in it that may help you.

Take care.

CPTAUSRET
10-13-2005, 21:26
Terry

I have massive respect for pilots.

After doing some time as an observer in a police chopper - I was always amazed by the pilots ability to fly the chopper around buildings in the city in a way that allowed me to see what was going on on the ground all the while simultaneously monitoring and responding to multiple radio channels (and understanding what was going on on each channel).

I have never met anyone before or since with more SA than those pilots.

G



Thanks for the compliment. It sometimes got hairy, and if you lost your cool, you were dead.

Terry

Guy
10-14-2005, 10:19
Thanks for the compliment. It sometimes got hairy, and if you lost your cool, you were dead.

TerryThere are times when you need to slow down!

The old saying..."speed is security" is BS! The faster you go, the less you see...thus "tunnel vision" comes into to play. It goes both ways...

You can run and gun all you want to, especially if you are by yourself. Once you factor in your surroundings and the outcome of your actions...it's a different ballgame!

Push yourself and when you realize that "tunnel vision"...back off and do it all over again.

Stay safe!

one-zero
10-18-2005, 12:49
As others posted, training is the key. In a previous organization I served in we pushed the envelope on operating at max speed using CQC as the training vehicle. We had coaches from the USOC in Colorado instruct us on techniques to squeeze performance another tenth of a percent the same fashion elite athletes do since a fraction of a second can make all the difference...
Some of this training is generic, but in our business you have to train specifically to avoid T-vision and "see fast".
I equate it to the difference of a first jump where all the parachutist remembers is a flurry of activity, then has an open chute and relief - to the experienced jumper who is bored during the 4 second sequence as he feels each retaining band release static-line and waits for the parachute to leave the container, etc...his tunnel vision is gone and he sees fast in this skill set.
We encounter this alot with room clearing. Newbies experience aflurry of activity and have a hard time recalling the actions which just occured, while experienced operators are aware of how many rounds they put into each body and are evaluating the next situation to deal with...what gives some an adrenalin rush will seem like slow motion to the trained operator.
There are many drills to help you overall - just like basic PT does for conditioning. But to be top notch you will need to craft the training to the activity you are concerned with - one size does not fit all.