View Full Version : The Attempted Pussification of Our Armed Forces.
Much is still being made of the trainee who died in Paris Island. They keep showing a film of the trainee's CO shoving "Hitting" him. All I saw was the CO placing his hand on the trainees chest and giving a light shove. I have several personal thoughts:
When recruits report for training, the doors should be closed behind them and nothing heard or seen from them until they complete training. Many of us have experienced what we thought were abuses at the time, only to laugh at or even appreciate the effectiveness later.
We used to joke about the marines having a 14 man squad since they had two PIO individuals with them. Based upon recent damaging photos and film when are they, and the rest of the military going to learn.
Believe me, the Marines or any other service are perfectly capable of handling their own investigatuins without the media's and the likes of KKKKATIE Curick helping.
Take off the kid's gloves. I made the transition from the old to the new army. For every soldier you can point out that straightened up and flew right because of non-judicial punishment, I'll show you ten who did so because of a few good ass whippings. There was a day when the PSG was the biggest and baddest dude in the platoon. And if he couldn't handle a particular individuall he and the other three PSGs could.
Let our soldiers be soldiers for crissake. Soldiers kill the enemy not ask permission to search their person. :lifter
Roguish Lawyer
02-18-2005, 23:41
Preach on, Qmaster Q!
Preach on, Qmaster Q!
Is that Qmaster as in Quarter Master? :eek: :eek:
Let me clarify my last: "Let soldiers be soldiers".
We all see the movies of the Centurians, and Knights in shining armor and the ossifers in their finery and grand balls etc, and that is the way the public wants to think of our soldiers. Has anyone ever looked at the real battelfield, with maces, clubs, battle axes and swords? That's what soldiers do. Soldiers are violent people who drink, whore and fight. Sorry Mom, but it's a fact!! :lifter
Roguish Lawyer
02-19-2005, 00:11
Is that Qmaster as in Quarter Master? :eek: :eek:
NO! :)
Hooahman
02-19-2005, 15:47
Hooah!!!! Q :lifter
Yep, the minute I read about it and started seeing crap on the news about it I thought to myself "Here we go". While going through Sea training at NTC we had SEALs doing the training and the ones who could'nt swim that well or not at all were f***ed with. When we did our tower jumps into the water with Kpocs (Life vests) on one guys head went under the water and he came up out of the water screaming "TRAINING AID, TRAINING AID!!!!" hahaha, the instructors who had long poles to pull people out were laughing so hard it took them a second to get him out. He took hell from us when we got back to the baracks.
As for this recruit. Its a shame yes but it happens and yes Q I remember when the Chief (PSG) was the one that handled it and if he could'nt for some reason then 3 would samething. and IMO the guys who really got an ass kicking derserved it. I agree also that once you get to BCT, NTC, Paris island, etc.. no one hears from you till your graduating (Except for mail).
just my .02
CPTAUSRET
02-19-2005, 15:51
Got to agree with you, T.
Preach on, Qmaster Q!
Darn RL. Sometimes I fear Alzheimer's is setting in. It just dawned on me you were referring to my screen name! Sharp as a tack, huh! Duh. :o
Now, as for the drowning. I must say that someone is going to be held accountable for that. In my five year tenure as a UWO instructor I have seen three students drown. Each was immediadely recovered and resusciitated and returned to training. One, a Thai student, drowned twice. He made up his mind he would die rather than quit. We had to relieve the tough little guy. Someone was always in control and we kept on top of things. Some Marine was lax and negligent and will pay. I have no doubt the Corps can and will handle this without media pressure.
In my five year tenure as a UWO instructor I have seen three students drown
I loved teaching Pre-SCUBA. I was the one who would demonstrate the weight recovery. I am very bouyant. I would bring it up and hold it in the air and then explain just what the students had to do with it and what they had to say. Then I would replace it on the bottom and exit the pool.
There is just no beating the look on somebody's face when they are talking as their mouth goes under and they then realize they need to breath.
Unless, unless it's the great big "ONE EYEBALL" that grows in the mask as somebody is bobbing and has just jumped off the bottom for the second try at reaching the surface. As they slow to a stop and then start sinking, fins come off the hands, arms and hands start thrashing, The one eyeball grows in the mask and the whole body wiggles as it slowly sinks to the bottom. Arms and legs grow still as the student drifts down to the bottom to hit tanks down. "OK boys, drag him out."
Man, when you get the SCUBA guys in the pool to demonstrate everything we made it look sooooo easy.
After one nasty moning in the pool I was telling of my very bad run in with a Sub and two guys packed their bags, walked out of the pool area and turned in their equipment.
The last easy day was today. It gets hard in the morning.
Pete
Note for those who have never done it. Bobbing is a fun exercise where you get to put all of your dive gear on. Your air is turned off and your regulator is stashed behind you. You are givin the command "Bob to the deap end". You bounce, or bob as we call it, from the shallow end to the deap end of the pool. As it gets deaper it gets harder to get to the surface. Once you get to the deap end and look about as comfortable as you'll ever get you'll come to the surface and an instructor will shout at you "Fins on your hands". As you are bobbing you remove you fins and place them on your hands and continue bobbing until your told "Bob to the shallow end." It really is fun.
Roguish Lawyer
02-19-2005, 18:30
I would be interested in statements made to trainees who forgot to turn their air on. :eek: ;)
I would be interested in statements made to trainees who forgot to turn their air on. :eek: ;)
Air? What Air? Pre-SCUBA trainees got no air in those days. You just got to train with the equipment and do everything on one breath. When you got to the real school the insturctors would let you use air.
Ahhh, who didn't love to watch crossovers in the morning.
Pete
Ambush Master
02-19-2005, 18:48
Since I was a certified "Water Safety Instructor", during the Bob and Travel training at USMA, I was assigned as a "Lifeguard". After I completed my traverse of the pool, I got out of my gear and stood by on the edge of the pool.
The "Bob and Travel" consisted of traversing the lenght of an Olympic pool while wearing basic combat gear. Fatigues, Boots, web gear (with a sizeable rubber block in the butt pack) and weapon (rubber M-14). The idea was, you went to the bottom, shoved off at an angle then took a breath, repeat etc. so that you could cross a body of water with equipment !!
One of my classmates had a bit of a problem, he made several attempts at reaching the surface but came up VERY short. When he settled to the bottom, the Instructors called for me to retrieve him. When I got to the bottom, he was totally out and was Dead Weight. I grabbed him, planted my feet on the bottom and launched for the surface. We didn't make it to the top. I started clearing gear off of him on the way back down and headed for the top a second time. Made it up and started mouth to mouth on the surface while I headed for the side. By the time we got him out of the water, he was breating on his own. Simple training can become VERY complicated !!
Later
Martin
When he settled to the bottom, the Instructors called for me to retrieve him. When I got to the bottom, he was totally out and was Dead Weight.
We told everybody on the first day that they needed to fix any problem they in the pool themselves. If we needed to come in after them we were going to wait until they quite wiggling. We'd pull they out quick after that, the Medics would pound on they a bit and work their magic and they guy would be as good as new. The we'd tell the guy "Get in the pool mister and recover your equipment".
It is much, much easyer to pull them out when they've passed out than when they're struggling. After the class saw one or two guys sink to the bottom the light came on and they said "These guys told the truth."
We did get to run one SCUBA school around 1983 down in Mobil, AL. The Reserve/NG guys wanted to run a bunch of their guys through SCUBA school but they didn't have enough slotes. Key West SFUWO sent up two guys with the POI and oversaw our training program. Frankie D. was the team sergeant of the combined team.
We ran it just like Key West except it was much, much harder on them. Due to the location they would finish PT, were handed a box "lunch" breakfast and they ate it on the way to pool training. The rubber boats, surface swims with the big gator and night compass swims in the bay were very, very hard on them. The ones that made it to the end got a very well deserved Combat Diver Badge.
Pete
The last posts of AM and Pete illustrate my point. There is no need to criticize the training or the Corps. If a marine drowned in the pool it was because:
1: The OIC failed to allot and assign proper safety personnel and equipment or:
2. The safety personnel weren't paying attention, or:
3. Both.
The truth will be found out and those responsible will pay.
Hooahman
02-20-2005, 06:11
Even though in my post here I told a funny story about a "Recruit" being laughed at for getting scared about his head going under water. and the Instructors laughing about it. The ENTIRE week we had sea training we were told alot of s**t and ALOT of s**t happend. BUT!! when it came down to it the Instuctors were at your side in a flash! and in the 5th week is "BASIC WATER SURVIVAL" he was still learning to use his uniform as a flotation device.
I dont know what happened. but I will bank its nothing to do with the Corps.
Sometimes its just too late to tell. We had people try to push it too far and pass out and there are so many recruits in the water its hard to tell. When somepne was pulled out they had 2 corpsmen on 'em and the EMT's were'nt far behind.
The Navy and the Marines take water training SERIOUS its no joke. Just too bad sometimes this happens :(
I DO NOT IN ANYWAY THINK THIS WAS INTENTIONAL! even tho what the "News" shows.
Just my .02
boat guy
02-28-2005, 08:07
While I agree with those opinions in this thread, that there are serious ramifications for the "pussification" of our military training forums, there are some things which I believe need addressing.
No matter how you slice it the USMC stepped on their crank. They did so on television and with a Commissioned Officer present. Barring policy, barring the stupidity of the recruit, barring any prevailing idea that the laying on of hands can give positive results, THE INSTRUCTOR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN TO TOUCH A RECRUIT WITH A CAMERA AT HIS BACK. USMC DIs are professionals, they are instructors and they know that they are not to touch recruits. It was sheer stupidity that led to this dilemna.
The simple fact is that recruits are not to be touched. It may be argued that this policy is leading to a softer product. This, however, is the policy. Furthermore, the success of the USMC in combat over the past three years would certainly be evidence that this policy, which has been stringently enforced for more than a decade, has not "pussified" our forces.
Another problem I have with this is that the laying on of hands is normally reserved for douche bags. The USMC does not need the douche bags anyway. That kid had no business being in our business and he should have been released. His father characterized it as such..."I don’t know how they could treat my son the way we saw on that video," says Tharp. "He never hurt nobody. He'd do anything anybody asked him." The USMC has met or exceeded their recruiting quota for many years now. They did not need this dirt bag or any other for whom a rough hand is the only effective training tool.
I agree that the IMBEDS are a bad idea. I agree that a closed door policy would be the best answer for all miltary training. I know that we are mongrel warfighters not fit for public scrutiny.
I do believe that we are smarter than the enemy. And like all of our enemies the media and the liberal pole smoking politicians like that Sen from WV should not be privvy to our tactics. We must be shrewd and unfailing if we are to retain any autonomy. No more should we show the media the brutal side of training, than we should show the enemy our plan of intended movement. The USMC violated that opsec and they will pay. Right or Wrong.
Boat Guy says:No matter how you slice it the USMC stepped on their crank. They did so on television and with a Commissioned Officer present. Barring policy, barring the stupidity of the recruit, barring any prevailing idea that the laying on of hands can give positive results, THE INSTRUCTOR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN TO TOUCH A RECRUIT WITH A CAMERA AT HIS BACK. USMC DIs are professionals, they are instructors and they know that they are not to touch recruits. It was sheer stupidity that led to this dilemna.
Unwittingly you make my point which is: The USMC did not step on their crank. An Officer and an instructor stepped on their cranks. That is my point, people tend to make a blanket condemnation rather than assign blame where blame is due.
If this were a Marine policy it would be more common place. Instructors, and ossifers, especially new ones occasuibally get out of control. I will say again: the Marine Corps is very capable of policing itself without the help of the media.
The Reaper
02-28-2005, 09:53
Boat Guy says:
Unwittingly you make my point which is: The USMC did not step on their crank. An Officer and an instructor stepped on their cranks. That is my point, people tend to make a blanket condemnation rather than assign blame where blame is due.
If this were a Marine policy it would be more common place. Instructors, and ossifers, especially new ones occasuibally get out of control. I will say again: the Marine Corps is very capable of policing itself without the help of the media.
Agreed.
By the time the media launched its "investigation" into the incidents at Abu Graib, that Army had already completed one 15-6 investigation, an IG investigation, and has started on the investigation of criminal charges against specific individuals. The media brought nothing but bad reporting and a black eye.
Despite their desire to be the "watchdogs", the media's record of self-policing appears to be significantly worse than the military's. They just happen to have the cameras, recorders, and air time.
I am sure that the Corps will do the right thing in this case, whether the press is involved or not.
If the unethical actions of a rogue reporter who makes up stories or pursues a personal agenda are not reflective of decay in the entire organization, how can the actions of a Marine who had a bad day reflect negatively on the entire Corps?
Who watches the watchers?
Think about it.
TR
Agreed.
By the time the media launched its "investigation" into the incidents at Abu Graib, that Army had already completed one 15-6 investigation, an IG investigation, and has started on the investigation of criminal charges against specific individuals. The media brought nothing but bad reporting and a black eye.
Despite their desire to be the "watchdogs", the media's record of self-policing appears to be significantly worse than the military's. They just happen to have the cameras, recorders, and air time.
I am sure that the Corps will do the right thing in this case, whether the press is involved or not.
TR
I was getting a SIRIUS radio installed and watching TV while waiting one day last week. They were interviewing either Barry Bonds or Jose Conseco. One of them said that the Press needs to pay more attention to their own problems. :lifter
boat guy
02-28-2005, 11:16
QRQ,
I truly appreciate your stance. Nothing in my statement was "unwittingly in agreement." I agree whole heartedly that those responsible should be held accountable. My point is not that the Corps is incapable of conducting their own investigation. Nor is my point that we need a watchdog. Quite the opposite.
I was attempting to illustrate that each individual's actions affect not only themselves but their entire service. In allowing that episode to be filmed that "ossifer" and the DI blemished the USMC reputation in the public eye. TR's signature says this more poignantly than I perhaps have.
"On a night in mid-October 2001, 11 members of an A-detachment from the 5th SF Group dropped into a valley deep inside Taliban territory in central Afghanistan....Gentlemen, every man on that team was carrying America's foreign policy on his shoulders, and that's one hell of a responsibility." - CWO3 Charles E. Simmons, U.S. Army SF
Because we are a new military... Because we have extended validity to media probes... Because we have adopted policies which are in conflict with the establishment of good order and discipline in my opinion. We must act accordingly at least on camera. It's like saying F@CK in front of your mother. It cannot be taken back. Each of us have a responsibility, no matter how small or large. When we screw up it will be caught, and if its caught on tape stand by. We will all in some way or another pay the man. Hope I am more clear this time. I am not opposed to what you believe, just had to caveat with my own HO.
There are a lot thoughts twisted through all the posts on this thread. The two biggest are Peacetime vs Wartime.
The one who will come out on the short end of the stick will be the grunt in the front lines. He has to make the quick call about shoot or not. I feel for the young troops on the front lines around the world today.
In Terry's day he was at war there were no cameras following him around. He never had to worry about what he did being splashed on the front page of national papers.
My day was the day of "Zero Defects". In peacetime the military threw away may good soldiers based on one small mistake.
I think because of the press we now have the "Zero Defects War". The smallest slip and the long knifes come out.
The troops on the front line are doing the best they can. They don't need to be worried that their action taken in a split second will be disected for hours on end by some do-gooder looking to make a name for him-self.
Of course, this is just my opinion. There are many who post here that feel the same way but could find much better words to express themselves.
Pete
In my day I though High-Tec gear was getting a pair of Herman Survivors.
CPTAUSRET
02-28-2005, 13:35
"In Terry's day he was at war there were no cameras following him around. He never had to worry about what he did being splashed on the front page of national papers."
Pete:
I realize you are referring to Terry D., but I will totally agree with you re the media in the face of todays troops.
Thank God my gunships did not have gun cameras.
Terry
AngelsSix
03-01-2005, 23:08
I am going to stick my snout in here for a second....if the guys don't know how to survive in a pool what happens in open water??
It was that question that my instructor asked us every day (in the water)......"what ARE you going to do??? DROWN??"
I wasn't there, but I am sure that things were skewed by the media just like we have found in Kuwait and Iraq.
The American public loves DRAMA!!
Hooahman
03-02-2005, 03:31
I have a million words for this post but I think it should be closed.
just my .02, have another shot!!
I have a million words for this post...
Jump, froggy, jump.
Thank God my gunships did not have gun cameras.
Terry
They did that one time...NO more cameras after that! ;) :eek: :D
LMAO!
Hooahman
03-02-2005, 18:58
How high? :D Yeah but those cameras had sweet money shots! :lifter