View Full Version : LEO Jump School,, WHY???
I can not fathom any practical application for having the local swat team jump qualified.
Airborne With the Country’s First Parachute Qualified SWAT Team
Tom Marshall
Justice from Above: RECOIL Goes Airborne With the Country’s First Parachute Qualified SWAT Team
One thousand …
Two thousand …
Three thousand …
Four thousand …
Five thousand …
SIX THOUSAND …
Check canopy! Gain canopy control!
OK … good … f*ck this job.
That’s when I could feel my heartbeat again. The 10 seconds prior had been like holding my breath underwater. At jump altitude, 1,500 feet in this case, every nut, bolt, and rivet of our Cessna-182 seemed to rattle and bang as if trying to get out of the plane before I could. It made me wonder, what ever did happen to DB Cooper?
“One minute!”
The Jump Master’s command brought me back to the inevitable reality that I was going to jump into thin air on the assumption that an oversized bedsheet and a bunch of string was going to keep me from dying prematurely at terminal velocity. Honestly? I was way more stressed out and way less excited than I had hoped to be. But I remembered something I had heard from one of my NCOs way back in my “butter bar” Second Lieutenant days:
All due respect, sir, Jesus hates a p*ssy.
http://www.recoilweb.com/airborne-with-the-countrys-first-parachute-qualified-swat-team-148068.html?fbclid=IwAR0YCY0wL1DvUPYH4ucCVZVfaOT_b WPXikknIb2jEFyG41e1al0hrXo9g6g
Next Up:
Meter Maids to be DZSO qualified.
Someone has to be there 1st to pop smoke and read the anemometer :lifter
If the FBIHRT had jumped into Ruby Ridge back in 1992 - perhaps they'd have maintained the element of surprise and Lon Horiuchi wouldn't have been forced to accidentally shoot Vicki Weaver
all kinds of applications - besides - you cant be a real operator if you are a dirty nasty leg
Is there a better view of the "Law Enforcement Jump Wings" somewhere?
More militarization of the police force. :(
Is there a better view of the "Law Enforcement Jump Wings" somewhere?
Yep:
mojaveman
04-12-2019, 15:55
Is there a better view of the "Law Enforcement Jump Wings" somewhere?
Couldn't resist. :p
WarriorDiplomat
04-12-2019, 17:25
It looks like another thinly veiled ex military contractor scam selling military skills using the same bullshit language crap and sales pitch the military does when it wants to justify sending combat weatherman to advanced DA schools
The pitch is during crisis society breaks down quickly in which law and order is critical.....IF you cannot get a convoy there because boats are too slow and STOL's A/C, and helicopters don't exist in this contractors world there is now a real world need to send in law enforcement WITHOUT a command center, jail, vehicles or anything else LEO needs by air is a new high speed option
Like I said yet another scam perpetrated by contractors for profit on the U.S. government dime
UWOA (RIP)
04-12-2019, 20:16
There is no good reason why for local law enforcement ....
I started the SWAT team for my department backs in the early eighties, but it never crossed my mind that airborne qualification was a desirable requirement. I developed our SWAT training program on a task, conditions, standards protocol ... and part of the qualification course was a regimen that mimic-ed elements of the Ranger course in making physical demands on the student. Why, you may ask? Because anyone with experience on how LEOs operate would understand that 'unit' operations did not function well beyond a two or three man team concept during that time frame.
LEOs were trained to operate alone or with a partner, but did not function well in numbers beyond that. Anecdotally, I would relate the story of where an officer would be placed to secure a perimeter. More often than not, the officer would move to another spot thinking it provided better cover or concealment ... or some other rationalization. Given the number of weapons pointed inward like a Polish firing squad, changes like that could lead to friendly fire casualties.
I even remember an instance, not a SWAT situation, where an officer on the perimeter securing a scene left to get coffee and a donut after a few 'boring' hours of inactivity. When you couple that with the rigors of placement in a position where snow, rain or other inclement weather could play with the focus of an officer, it became obvious that the demands of a Ranger mindset were needed. Hence those concepts were incorporated into the training.
But airborne qualification? I don't think so ....
.
Old Dog New Trick
04-12-2019, 20:38
Yeah but, is there “Danger Pay” associated with this new and unique opportunity to fleece the taxpayers?
Will they get to lease a Twin Otter and paint it black with black reflective letters that spell S.W.A.T.?
Will they jump the M1950 weapons case or use a single point QR sling?
Should all of that been pink? Yes!
If they use it, and they will, it will end up being either a tactical disaster, a media disaster, or both. Tactically they won't have the support that military units have. As to media, no support there regardless. Who remembers Daryl Gates' SWAT LAPD Tactical Battering Ram that I believe he drove into a house in '86 (or at least had his photo taken in it)? I'm not sure that they used it after that. Bad press.
Badger52
04-13-2019, 06:40
More militarization of the police force. :(Bingo. Solution in search of problem. Sounds like a scam du jour. Our county got one of those "free" MRAPs - which they can barely afford to truly maintain. But it gets "deployed" at least 3x a year* - so, please continue funding the maintenance, yessir yessir 3 bags full.
* And that would be during the 4 July Independence Day parade, 2 principal town appearances counting as 2 deployments. And then National "Night Out" every August. Boy, sure glad we need that thing.
:rolleyes:
Remington Raidr
04-13-2019, 07:02
I had to check. I thought this was the comedy zone thread.:rolleyes:
Why stop there, lets do a LEO MFF team. I will volunteer my services to MFF or LFF (Law Enforcement Free Fall). I got to come up with a cool acronym to sell FEMA.
UWOA (RIP)
04-13-2019, 10:24
Yeah but, is there “Danger Pay” associated with this new and unique opportunity to fleece the taxpayers?
Will they get to lease a Twin Otter and paint it black with black reflective letters that spell S.W.A.T.?
Will they jump the M1950 weapons case or use a single point QR sling?
Should all of that been pink? Yes!
The 'toy' mindset is not a new one ... it happened to my SWAT unit after I left command. The replacement commander was infatuated more with what looked good then teaching, instilling, and practicing the approach that out-thinking the bad guy was a more fruitful path ....
Four months after I left the SWAT team had its first friendly fire casualty ... and friendly fire isn't friendly.
.
Remington Raidr
04-13-2019, 12:06
Why stop there, lets do a LEO MFF team. I will volunteer my services to MFF or LFF (Law Enforcement Free Fall). I got to come up with a cool acronym to sell FEMA.
SOME (not all) of the coppers I've known have gone alphabet (SWAT, QRF, XYZ, etc.) for the MONEY. All that OT for "training" and such. Cui bono?;)
Papa Zero Three
04-13-2019, 16:33
If one takes the time to read the article, you'd see their reasoning behind it (law enforcement powers during Disaster relief in CONUS), whether you agree with it or not. Snippet from the article:
When a severe natural disaster hit the small island nation of Haiti in 2010, America sent its large-scale Rapid Reaction Force — the 82nd Airborne Division. These soldiers offered a unique capability to an area ravaged by natural disaster........
Fast-forward to 2017. A similar situation struck the island of Puerto Rico which, at time of writing, is still a long way off from anything resembling a full recovery. What’s the difference? In a foreign nation, such as Haiti, it’s perfectly acceptable for military units to conduct humanitarian aid, policing actions, and operations to restore and maintain civil order. But both of the latter missions usually require some application of force, up to and including the lethal kind.
Units from the National Guard are often seen rendering medical aid or distributing supplies, but they cannot use force against U.S. citizens. With most experts agreeing that a complete breakdown of law and order can occur within 72 hours or less of a major disaster, being able to rapidly deliver peace officers to a large-scale crisis zone becomes a very high priority very quickly.
Now, because they were mentioned, FBI's HRT guys are chartered to work alongside our SMU's in war zones and implemented an internal MFF jump program for their guys back circa 2009 so they could infil with the assault force. I was involved with teaching them military equipment use and jump procedures after they had completed a civilian AFF course. Where upon completion of the AFF course, they would then challenge the closed Military MFF course and conduct the HALO course.
As you can see, the police mentioned in the article have a different justification for the capability than say the FBI HRT guys. So while you may not agree with either doing it, at least now you should have a better understanding how each utilizes the capability in their LEO capacities.
I'm a little disappointed in Tom Marshall's (the author of the article) misunderstanding of military authorities, given his active Army background. His statement "Units from the National Guard are often seen rendering medical aid or distributing supplies, but they cannot use force against U.S. citizens," is only partially correct, and therefore conflicts with his premise that civilian LE needs an airborne rapid response capability.
It's true that National Guard units operating under Title 10 authorities (aka active duty orders) are limited by Posse Comitatus restrictions. However, NG personnel operating under State Active Duty or Title 32 are not restricted by Posse Comitatus, and can therefore carry out LE-like duties that include search, seizure, and arrest/detainment of US citizens. This is especially true for NG Military Police, given their LE training and duties, but LE duties are not limited to only MPs. States can also enter into agreements such that units from an outside state can operate in an affected state under the affected state's governor's authority, allowing them to conduct LE-like activities against US citizens if necessary.
Of course, all of this is completely predicated on the inability of local and state LE to carry out their duties on the scale required. Marshall's example of post-Hurricane Maria Puerto Rico doesn't support his premise, as local and territory LE, in concert with PRARNG MPs and other state NG LE brought in via helicopter (not airborne insertion) provided sufficient numbers of LEOs with the necessary authorities for conducting post-disaster LE operations. With the ability of the US Navy and USCG to provide a maritime basing option for helicopter transit, there is little need for civilian LE (outside of Federal LE direct support to SOF) to have an airborne insertion capability.
Astronomy
04-13-2019, 21:06
With most experts agreeing that a complete breakdown of law and order can occur within 72 hours or less of a major disaster, being able to rapidly deliver peace officers to a large-scale crisis zone becomes a very high priority very quickly.
Uh... how 'bout just fly 'em in via helicopter.
What common police radio net are they going to operate on in such a seriously disaster ravaged world? Responding to what local command center or Fusion JOC. How the fuck are they gonna patrol this desperate landscape without organic vehicles? (Pro Tip: You ain't commandeering mine under color of law.) Whose jurisdiction are they anticipating operating in? If out of their normal departmental/agency/county sector, the Federal/State LEO/National Guard can already handle such a need.
Most importantly... how the fuck are they (a county SWAT team) gonna maintain useful currency... and tie together all the other requisite on-the-ground package skills (C2, signal, medical, rescue, DZ operations, bundles, etc.)? While still doing their assigned police jobs over the course of a normal year. That's a rhetorical question BTW.
As an AC/RC Advisor, I did repeated disaster relief in largely flooded WV w/ 19th Group. Not EVER was there a need to "jump in" anyone. For any reason. Even though every single one of us was current, technically capable of doing so, had the rigger supported gear, and had organic Army/USAF Guard air support at our beck and call.
I'm sorry, but I see this as an utter waste of time & money. Tits on a boar. A useless wet dream. Fabricated justification to excuse paying for a para-military jump club... and purchase of bunch of loosely related Gucci kit & toys. An excuse for some guys to go to a contractor run jump school. Shit, why not stand up a police hot-air balloon team. Or an LEO down hill ski team... just in case law and order breaks down out in Vail?
Yeah, I can just see some FEMA super-grade incident manager employing these guys to save the day. The very next time some Caribbean island gets hammered by a hurricane. With most of their log books reflecting single digit daylight Hollywood blasts. Not. :rolleyes:
C'mon. Anyone can see this for what it is. They got their department (or maybe FEMA money) to pay for a jumping/shooting course... and invented some imaginary BS to justify the TDY expenditure. Of course they're the only "airborne qualified" SWAT team in the country. Nobody else had the chutzpah to take such a fantasy spending request to their bosses. I'll give them kudos for getting their tactical vacation wish list accomplished.
It looks like another thinly veiled ex military contractor scam selling military skills using the same bullshit language crap and sales pitch the military does when it wants to justify sending combat weatherman to advanced DA schools
The pitch is during crisis society breaks down quickly in which law and order is critical.....IF you cannot get a convoy there because boats are too slow and STOL's A/C, and helicopters don't exist in this contractors world there is now a real world need to send in law enforcement WITHOUT a command center, jail, vehicles or anything else LEO needs by air is a new high speed option
Like I said yet another scam perpetrated by contractors for profit on the U.S. government dime
Hmmm, I wonder what X General/Col dreamed this up.
When on active duty, they loath civilians (GS workers) and contractors, but when they get out, they come scrounging for something to do :rolleyes:
I had to check. I thought this was the comedy zone thread.:rolleyes:
I posted in the comedy zone because that is what this is.
Anyone foolishly thinking that a local LEO SWAT entity, from any size city, would be in a position to physically AND financially support the training & infrastructure need to do a cross border insertion, with ZERO global support is on drugs.
A SWAT team has a very narrow ROE. Get in, Neutralize, & Get out. They don't have sustainment capabilities. After the first 14 hrs, it's a bust.
There is not one city in the USA that has or will have the infrastructure to support this.
Even our NG SF units, who are well trained and supported, when activated, are integrated into their AD counterparts, because of the need to have tight overlord support and continuity of action.
Net Net: This is a money making effort (almost a scam) to stroke some egos.
My $00.00002 :munchin
Old Dog New Trick
04-14-2019, 09:01
Uh err JJ, you posted in General Discussion. Which is now funnier than ever. :p
Uh err JJ, you posted in General Discussion. Which is now funnier than ever. :p
WAH OOPS :]
Me BAD
bblhead672
04-16-2019, 14:22
Sounds like a great idea. Take em up, let em jump. Survivors get a parachute for the next jump. :D