Iraqi forces drive Kurds out of Kirkuk

[Pineapples]

As the title states, the Iraqi forces and state back militias are fighting the Kurds to take back Kirkuk. Being that a lot of you guys have fought alongside both of these groups (unless I am mistaken), I was wondering what all of your opinions are on the matter.

Link to article:

https://www.apnews.com/0b3b6bf13cce47ada980c2170d7b36ac

[Pineapples]

After further reading and building my own opinion on the matter, while sifting through all of the differing "facts" of what is going on, I don't really disagree with Iraq wanting to reestablish control of the area. It was, after all, always their territory. However, they did hold a vote to secede from Iraq, which was opposed by the US (not sure whom exactly, wasn't specified), that according to various media outlets had a major vote for secession. Although, I did find contradicting facts on this as well, some stating the overall vote was heavily in favor, while others saying that the Kurd population was in the vast majority in favor while giving no specifics on the rest of the population.

There is an obvious, huge financial reasoning behind this as well, but do you think the Kurds have right to the land considering they supposedly won the vast majority of the vote to secede, or does Iraq deserves to maintain the land that they abandoned (albeit before they had an adequately trained military)?

[Pete]

Do some further reading on the ethnic populations in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. Then find where the majority of each ethnic population live in each country. Match that to a map that shows the three countries.

Report back with your updated opinion.

[Pineapples]

Based on that further reading, my opinion is that although it is and has been a contested area (several maps showing Kirkuk in the Kurdish autonomous region, several not), I fully believe Iraq has a right to the land. The Kurds may have their own region where they have their own parliament and can draft their own laws and what not, but it seems that it's basically on borrowed land from Iraq. Also, given the displacement of the Kurds throughout the surrounding countries, and the overall instability of the whole area due to, well, everything.. it just isn't a wise time to be attempting something like this. They have an argument to be able to regain the territory and create their own official nation, but the tensions are too high for people to be okay with just giving away land, especially as profitable as that area may be. Also, I didn't read about Turkey's stance on the issue until I did what you said, but it makes sense considering the vast majority of Kurds they have in the southeastern part of their own country, and how they're probably worried about a secession themselves. It gives to reason that if they allow Kirkuk to go, others will follow suit, which in turn would cause a great amount of increased instability in the region where they should be coming together to fight the common enemy at hand.

[scooter]

When and how did the country of Iraq come into existance?

This, x 2.

Look up Sykes Picot and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and all the shit that has come from that. The lines on the map are just lines on the map. If the people living there don't agree with them, why are they legitimate?

[Pineapples]

Through the unification of the three regions of the Ottoman empire that previously made up the area of Iraq, by the UK right after WW1. Purely for oil. Which were already divided by their religions, so I'm assuming that there has always been disputes for land. Correct me if I'm wrong, I actually haven't seen any info on previous conflicts before the first world war, but the wording kind of suggested it.

I really should have learned this in school growing up.. I apologise for my lack of knowledge.

If you go back in time it was in the Kurdish province, but that's so old and the land has been divvied up several times. I need to read up more, but it seems that as a whole they have not been successfully integrated as the unified country of Iraq ever. Now it's just continuing after they're getting a break from IS.

I appreciate you guys not berating me and pointing me in the proper direction to learn more, thank you.

[Pineapples]

Scooter, I read very briefly on that, I'll check it out soon. Need to go for a run. I'll check back in later today or tomorrow when I get a chance to delve more into the subject

[bblhead672]

Short answer is most, if not all, of the countries in the Middle East did not exist in their present form prior to Europeans deciding how to carve up the region. The occupants of the region mostly haven't been happy about that from the beginning, except those who established power and great wealth.

[Ret10Echo]

Short answer is most, if not all, of the countries in the Middle East did not exist in their present form prior to Europeans deciding how to carve up the region. The occupants of the region mostly haven't been happy about that from the beginning, except those who established power and great wealth.

Exactly.

I always point people to read "A Peace to End all Peace" The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (0884476569922): by David Fromkin

History does not repeat itself but it often rhymes.

[Pineapples]

So after some more reading last night and this morning, it seems that Kurdistan had several opportunities to actually become an independent nation, but due to a constant disagreement and lack of trust amongst their own leaders they were never able to get it done. Talks failed during the Paris peace conference around 1920, and now they're still failing to reach agreement on forming an independent Kurdistan due to internal quarrels between the three leaders of the autonomous region who believe the others are more interested in power for themselves rather than a forming a unified Kurdistan

Best article I've found on this so far:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/fikraforum/view/who-to-blame-for-the-absence-of-a-kurdish-state-after-sykes-picot

Ret10Echo, I'll check out that book

[Pete]

So after some more reading last night and this morning, it seems that Kurdistan had several opportunities to actually become an independent nation, but due to a constant disagreement and lack of trust amongst their own leaders they were never able to get it done. Talks failed during the Paris peace conference around 1920, and now they're still failing to reach agreement on forming an independent Kurdistan due to internal quarrels between the three leaders of the autonomous region who believe the others are more interested in power for themselves rather than a forming a unified Kurdistan.....

So do you blame all this on the Kurds - or the three counties that the Kurds think are occupying their land?

A Kurdish nation would have been land locked and surrounded by hostile nations.

[Pineapples]

It's hard for me to say that I blame them entirely, but from what I have gathered every opportunity that they have had to gain independence has been thwarted by a lack of cohesion within the Kurds themselves. Granted, from the most recent article I have been able to find, the three Kurdish governmental parties seem to be working together to pass this referendum. Which it did, but it's not being recognized by any of the surrounding countries.

I'd have to say it used to be the Kurds fault that they didn't become an independent nation, but now they are putting forth the proper effort to work together and form the borders of their country. Unfortunately, due to the opposition of all the surrounding countries they are not being allowed to do so.

[Pete]

Life is not as easy as it first seems, is it Pineapples?

Now transfer your attention to Spain and Catalonia. How is that different from what we're discussing here?

[Mustang Man]

For those who wish to see a Kurdish nation, keep in mind many of them such as the PKK and YPG factions are staunch marxist-communists.

[Pineapples]

It's actually the exact same thing that's going on with Catalonia, I didn't even know about that until you mentioned it. Never thought it was easy, but I did not know it was so complicated haha

[Sachsen]

Real sad to see, but not something completely unthinkable. Some observers of this whole conflict have been asking the question for a time, and I guess now with ISIS on its last legs the next big conflict is gonna be the Syrian and Iraqi governments asking themselves if they want the liability of a new independent state on their doorstep.

[WarriorDiplomat]

Real sad to see, but not something completely unthinkable. Some observers of this whole conflict have been asking the question for a time, and I guess now with ISIS on its last legs the next big conflict is gonna be the Syrian and Iraqi governments asking themselves if they want the liability of a new independent state on their doorstep.

Not only do they not want an independent state but neither does Turkey, Syria, Azerbaijan or Iran want it especially the Turks. Kirkuk if controlled by the Kurds is the largest oil depository in the region....the U.S. does not want that oil to go to Russia, China, Iran or N. Korea if Iraq is split and the Arabs control it there is no guarantee they won't sell it to the highest bidder

[CloseDanger]

I would be remiss to mention that if there is not a Doctrinal Precedent for Kurdistan independence in not only their native land and Heritage, but also the fact that they are abused by all of their Neighbors.

The reason for my support for this Independence move right now is the abuse has gone on too long.

So if action is not taken to somewhat isolate and draw border for the Earths largest stateless people, then When?

So, I want a Kurdistan or at the very least an autonomous state as has been promised before and hard fought for.

Plenty of options are open on how the oil flows or who gets paid, but landlocked does not mean death.


Shame on the entire world for this one. There will be a price for the invasion of Kurdistan.


Here is Max Boot on possibility (http://ow.ly/gbR230fYeZT)

He posits a Bosnia option, seeing as it is already balkanized, why not?
I know, I know - money and power is god there.
But possible it may be.


And here is probably an important insight on Iran’s Hand and Iraq’s Kirkuk Offensive (http://www.rubincenter.org/2017/10/irans-hand-and-iraqs-kirkuk-offensive/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GloriaCenter+%28GLORIA+Center %29)

God Bless them, possibly the only way to separate the tribes correctly.

[CloseDanger]

Also, the Kurds do not have their shit together - but more now than ever. If any idiot Nation around them gains more power over them and the rest try to claim territory,

I could have a case of genocide on my desk right now seeing how fast the idiots the Kurds protected gave them no support after it was over.


In fact, right now I hate Both Iran and Iraq equally.
Again.

[ddoering]

The Kurds are the only decent human beings in the region.

[Pineapples]

It's an unfortunate truth throughout the history of the area from what I've learned throughout this thread. Also unfortunate is that apparently IS has taken advantage of the current disputes between the Kurds and Iraq and attacked villages in the area. It amazes me how they lack the ability to work cohesively in situations like this. They're fighting a common enemy, but refuse to come together to establish some stability.

I get the want to own the land given the financial benefits of controlling the oil fields, but does it not occur to them that no one can benefit if they're constantly at war with each other? I know this is a rant about an ideal world, but the inability to put ones self over the other bothers me. Just wishful thinking on my part I guess.

There's an old quote I can't find, but it basically states that you can throw the sand from the middle east onto the floor and it will bring anyone in the room to draw their swords.

[Pineapples]

Former leader of the Kurdish Autonomous region Masoud Barzani, has said that the Kurds are reevaluating their relationship with the US and is apparently suggesting that "the Russians could be better friends than the U.S."

:rolleyes:


Interview with Barzani on NPR:

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/06/562393806/iraqi-kurdish-leader-says-region-will-re-evaluate-relationship-with-u-s-after-really