View Full Version : USS John McCain collision
This is going to be hard to explain in light of a recent collision of a Navy vessel. What do they do just put these ships on cruise control and hope for the best?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/20/uss-john-s-mccain-collides-with-merchant-ship-in-pacific.html
Ret10Echo
08-20-2017, 19:06
Prayers out for those aboard...
Two Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers.... System issue? :munchin
Scimitar
08-20-2017, 19:23
I think this is the 4th US Navy ship incident since January this year that at least possibly involving navigation issues.
Issues with two separate Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, and
Issues with two separate Ticonderoga-class cruises.
Me thinks there's a pattern....
S
This is going to be hard to explain in light of a recent collision of a Navy vessel. What do they do just put these ships on cruise control and hope for the best?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/20/uss-john-s-mccain-collides-with-merchant-ship-in-pacific.html
My prayers go out...hope all are safe!
Holly
"Initial reports indicate the warship sustained damage to its port side aft."
...so, McCain had some problems on 'the left'
It does not sound good, sounds like missing and injured. Definitely prayers out to all concerned and I should have stated that in my first post.
https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/899460314185564160?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp %5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Old Dog New Trick
08-20-2017, 20:35
Prayers out to those missing and injured.
a terrible POW
there is no love lost on the RINO that McCain is, but that part of your hard statement needs to be backed up a n bit, or withdrawn.
Old Dog New Trick
08-20-2017, 21:54
.
Prayers out for those aboard...
Two Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers.... System issue? :munchin
Yes, sir, and the "system" is most likely in logistics. Not in spare parts (beans, black oil, and bullets) but in training and leadership. There's definitely a fault and it is systemic. For years and in so many areas (all services can claim this, too) we've been sold to rely more and more on technology and less on the individual. But, if you put the man back in the loop you'd better know how to lead him. This is the new paradigm and it's not going to be cleared up easy.
Yes, sir, it's a "system" problem, and it can go all the way back to acquisitions. You can build something cheap, quick, or well. But, you can only choose two of these, and if you leave logistics out of the system design equation you're making an irreversible and very stupid mistake. Choose wisely, all you planners and strategists. Meanwhile, you bosses out there had better learn how to lead.
spottedmedic111
08-21-2017, 06:08
Anyone who's been tempted to forgo guard shifts during a patrol base RON will likely recognize the issue here. The ocean is big, but professionalism should be bigger.
bblhead672
08-21-2017, 07:12
The Navy needs to put down the "sensitivity training manual" and pick back up the "seamanship manual."
This is what happens when mission is second to political/social concerns.
CNO just appointed ADM Phil Davidson to head up the investigation into the fleet problems in WESTPAC. I don't know Davidson but given his horsepower I expect some 7th Fleet flag officers may be headed for the door. In the end, however, when four stars start getting involved with anything the real cause and effects go out the window with the other baby. JMHO.
Here are his comments in FEB this year at a Navy conference and gives some view of his POV. FWIW...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYW9ZxNAxJg
BigJimCalhoun
08-21-2017, 17:35
A bit more info on the naming of the ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_(DDG-56)
This warship is named after John S. McCain, Sr., and John S. McCain, Jr., both admirals in the United States Navy. John S. McCain, Sr. commanded the aircraft carrier USS Ranger, and later the Fast Carrier Task Force during the latter stages of World War II. John S. McCain, Jr. commanded the submarines USS Gunnel and USS Dentuda during World War II. He subsequently held a number of posts, rising to Commander-in-Chief of the United States Pacific Command, before retiring in 1972. These men were, respectively, the grandfather and father of retired U.S. Navy Captain, Naval Aviator, and former Vietnam Prisoner of War, Senator John S. McCain III.[2]
McCain was experiencing severe electronic problems, as was the Fitzgerald. Both ships were built in the same shipyard. Both are BMC Ballistic Missile Carriers, out of Japan. Both are members of a group of 6 ships that alternate there patrols in the same area.Now there are 4 ships instead of 6. So the other 4 will have to double up on patrol areas and replenish at sea. Now there is 2 less ships to shoot down N K missiles. Cyber attack activities against ships are being looked at.
Fitzgerald was rammed by a container ship that turned around and did a 180 once they saw where the Fitzgerald was.
If the hacking proves true, this is a clear act of war.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/08/22/is-someone-hacking-our-7th-fleet-navy-to-investigate-after-uss-john-s-mccain-collision.html
"Initial reports indicate the warship sustained damage to its port side aft."
...so, McCain had some problems on 'the left'
BACK and to the Left ....
BACK and to the Left ....
BACK and to the Left ....
:munchin
Old Dog New Trick
08-22-2017, 10:12
While certainly not impossible, I find it difficult to believe a foreign power capable of hacking a modern warships navigation and surface radar systems making ghost ships out of 500' long merchant ships.
How do you explain hacking human error?
Maybe not the last words spoken but the "Night Watch Crewmen" on the Titanic said "ICEBERG" right before impact, and long after the Captain had said full steam ahead...flank speed - let's break the record between Queenstown and New York. Goodnight!
These are not coincidences re: Fitzgerald, McCain, and others...these are training and leadership deficiencies at levels not seen since the late seventies and early eighties. Same blips happened during and after Clinton and again are happening during and after Obama. Coincidence? No.
bblhead672
08-22-2017, 10:53
Having experienced being on a submarine that collided with another submarine that was on the surface I'll stick with seamanship fundamentals and discipline are taking a backseat to diversity, sensitivity and social experimentation in the Navy.
My experience with two ships colliding was due to the inability of a junior officer, recently qualified Office of the Deck, mistaking running lights of the other sub as moving away from rather than directly at our sub.
Both subs returned to port with minor damage and no injuries. Except to careers.
GI beans and GI gravy Gee I'm glad I did not join the Navy. Not to over simplify this but the oceans are f***in huge no ship should ever even get close to hitting another ship.
Could it be a function of smaller crew sizes due to technology so instead of 2-3 tired people potentially noticing something that is sliding down the slope of bad there may be only 1...who doesn't notice.
Is there greater reliance on tech to point out potential problems so that that 1 guy isn't as alert and looking for problems or cross-checking the data from the technology vs common sense, intuition or observed reality?
I'm not a ship driver and I don't know anything about the Navy, save after watching all those WWII Submarine and "Battle of the Atlantic" news reels and movies that I wanted nothing to do with it.
But I do wonder what the root cause of all these incidents is...
Old Dog New Trick
08-22-2017, 12:37
Don't these destroyers have ~300 crew members?
Doing some reading just now about these Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyers is they are built with a very low surface radar signature. I wonder if because the navy is (actually) running "ghost ships" the radar on merchant ships are not seeing the warships in their path?
Being invisible cuts both ways!
Scimitar
08-22-2017, 12:40
GI beans and GI gravy Gee I'm glad I did not join the Navy. Not to over simplify this but the oceans are f***in huge no ship should ever even get close to hitting another ship.
In their defense, were the incidents happen are shipping chock points, and are crowded as F**K.
This pic is a little over stated, but you get the point.
S
GI beans and GI gravy Gee I'm glad I did not join the Navy. Not to over simplify this but the oceans are f***in huge no ship should ever even get close to hitting another ship.
Please check out this video on the shipping and issues which affect all ships transiting the Straits of Singapore and the Straits of Malacca. It's illuminating. If you've never been there then ...
:munchin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvJc8cLzQo4
Spoofing of electronic navigation signals has been an EW science for a long time, but targeting a specific ship (especially a USN vessel) is almost impossible. However, spoofing a merchant ship may be easier. If you view the video above you'll notice all communications needs to go thru the VTIS controllers. This part of the world is extraordinary re: traffic.
IMHO, I believe we've raised a culture (all services) which rely too much on technology. Soldiers and Marines used to learn to rely on their compass and how to read a map. Too many of those skills are now based on manipulating their hand-held GPS. One example.
I suspect that right now some place in the world there are soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen who are forsaking their duty and are fiddling with their Smart Phones. Anyone wanna bet against it?
:munchin
Don't these destroyers have ~300 crew members?
Doing some reading just now about these Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyers is they are built with a very low surface radar signature. I wonder if because the navy is (actually) running "ghost ships" the radar on merchant ships are not seeing the warships in their path?
Being invisible cuts both ways!
Not a bad perspective, sir, but Arliegh Burke's are steel and don't have that sort of radar cross section mitigation. The new Zumwalt DDG is another matter.
In their defense, were the incidents happen are shipping chock points, and are crowded as F**K.
This pic is a little over stated, but you get the point.
S
True. But IMHO all the more reason for redundancy and adding some good old fashioned lookouts (small craft patrols even) at these choke points...choke points provide opportunity for more than just accidents.
Team Sergeant
08-22-2017, 13:35
If the hacking proves true, this is a clear act of war.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/08/22/is-someone-hacking-our-7th-fleet-navy-to-investigate-after-uss-john-s-mccain-collision.html
You can hack my car, but I still have the ability to turn it off, apply the brakes, turn the steering wheel etc.
The commander of that ship (and a few others) needs to walk the plank........... This is ludicrous.
In their defense, were the incidents happen are shipping chock points, and are crowded as F**K.
This pic is a little over stated, but you get the point.
S
Not trying to pick on the Navy but if it's so hectic out there then one would expect the level of vigilance to be that much higher. There is just no excuse for this. They are recovering bodies now I am sure those sailors did not go to bed thinking that their lives were in eminent danger from a collision.
Being invisible cuts both ways!
Not when one of the two involved also has passive sonar/computer with a sea-craft identification database.
Pat
Well 7th fleet is down one admiral. They just announced his relief for loss of confidence........
The Reaper
08-23-2017, 06:26
Not a Navy guy, but why don't they post watches to keep an eye out for traffic during limited visibility transits of congested areas?
Assuming the bridge watch cannot see 360 degrees.
You would think a vessel that can see and hit a ballistic missile at more than 1,000 miles would be able to see and avoid a 30,000 ton vessel moving at a few knots.
Is there some reason the radar is not picking up the merchant vessels?
RIP, Sailors.
TR
BigJimCalhoun
08-23-2017, 19:02
Please check out this video
Thank you for sharing. I learned something from this. I can see how a collision can happen. About 8-1/2 minutes in, it warns the views that many ships may not have the ATS (?), or it may be turned off. The harbor lights cause confusion too.
Not a Navy guy, but why don't they post watches to keep an eye out for traffic during limited visibility transits of congested areas?
Assuming the bridge watch cannot see 360 degrees.
RIP, Sailors.
TR
Yes, sir, and they're supposed to have lookouts posted on each of the bridge wings (port and starboard) and aft. So, three lookouts should have been posted and speaking directly to the Pilot House and to CIC (Combat Info Center). Information is supposed to be relayed to those spaces and immediately communicated to the respective officer in charge (the OOD on the Bridge and the Watch Officer in CIC). Preliminary reports from Fitzgerald state that the Command "lost situational awareness". I suspect the same catch all phrase will be applied to McCain. BTW, you "lose situational awareness" when you stop paying attention. I can't find an excuse for either of these senseless tragedies beyond failed leadership, and that is never an excuse.
On McCain the divers have thankfully found the bodies of all 10 missing sailors. Small consolation to the families.
https://news.usni.org/2017/08/27/navy-recovers-8-remaining-sailors-killed-aboard-uss-john-s-mccain
Not trying to pick on the Navy but if it's so hectic out there then one would expect the level of vigilance to be that much higher. There is just no excuse for this. They are recovering bodies now I am sure those sailors did not go to bed thinking that their lives were in eminent danger from a collision.
Speaking purely from my own experience from '62 to '96, yes, when you hit the rack at sea, just as in any dangerous area of service, you go trusting those who are on watch to remain alert and protect your safety. Trust is the cornerstone of the brotherhood in which we all serve regardless of branch. Likewise, when you stand your watch you stand it fully aware that you are caring for your brotherhood, you are protecting them so they can sleep well, and more than that you are vowing to protect their family's most treasured possession. You don't bestow your trust when you sleep, or assume the responsibility when you stand your watch, casually or for granted. No, sir, there is no excuse. It's your job and it's your promise, your word. All rage against the conditions which caused these tragedies is appropriate.
Ouch
Part 1
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-08/collisions-part-i%E2%80%94what-are-root-causes
Part 2
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-08/collisions-part-ii%E2%80%94operational-pause
Ouch
Part 1
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-08/collisions-part-i%E2%80%94what-are-root-causes
Part 2
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-08/collisions-part-ii%E2%80%94operational-pause
Yes, sir: Ouch, indeed.
The author, Capt Eyer, is clear as to issues that have been breeding for years. It's a culture problem that appoints Fleet and Task Force Commands based on political leverage, Squadron and individual ship commands based on time in grade instead of demonstrated proficiency, and training and operational emphasis on reliance on technology and less on the individual. It reeks of so many other navies in history who failed in their mission. I hope but am not confident that this same or a similar paradigm does not also exist in other services. The Navy is unique in that a mistake made by a single ship results in dramatic and immediate undeniable results, and entire Fleet training and operational systems are revealed to be critically substandard.
Recommend all services at all levels take a hard look at their pipeline culture. While these inexcusable tragedies in the Navy are undeniable the culture which allowed them to grow can affect any service, for that matter any large organization.
Poor leadership is not restricted to the sea going services. JMHO.
Streck-Fu
08-29-2017, 06:09
As for these multiple new investigations, while perhaps necessary, there is no secret about what’s wrong. In 2010 Vice Admiral Phil Balisle was tasked to investigate the state of the surface force. The report clearly spelled out that training was poor, at every level; the material condition of ships was in decline; and the operational tempo for ships was crushing and prevented serious maintenance, even if funding existed (and it did not) to pay for repairs. If the “Balisle Report” had been acted on the Navy likely would not be where it is today.
I feel sorry for the junior enlisted that bear the brunt of this backlash. Most of the leadership will not treat this as a teaching moment that includes a mea culpa. IT will be increased watches, increased maintenance, and even less rest for an already over worked and deployed force. This is where the figurative shit rolls down hill into a literal pile of shit that will suffocate the E4 and below.
The Div O's and Dept Heads need to effectively train the JOs and the Chiefs need to approach the corrective training with an even hand.
The Reaper
08-29-2017, 19:49
Again, I am not a sailor, but I have often wondered what the efforts to reduce crew sizes to save money would have on damage control, watches, and the ability of the ship, if necessary, to fight and defend itself. Many of the vessels that were seriously damaged in combat during WW II were saved by the herculean efforts of many of the crew in damage control operations.
To me, it appears to be a failed experiment, unless we anticipate never actually employing our vessels in naval combat again.
TR
Again, I am not a sailor, but I have often wondered what the efforts to reduce crew sizes to save money would have on damage control, watches, and the ability of the ship, if necessary, to fight and defend itself. Many of the vessels that were seriously damaged in combat during WW II were saved by the herculean efforts of many of the crew in damage control operations.
To me, it appears to be a failed experiment, unless we anticipate never actually employing our vessels in naval combat again.
TR
"A failed experiment" is being gentle.
All spot on points, sir, and arguments opposing your conclusions would be on shaky ground. DoD chose to reduce manning in many systems to save money, and that acquisition strategy permeates all the services. It's fine and dandy when you're doing nothing more than show-and-tell whiz bang, shopping mall recruitment drives. A lot of shock and awe in all the technology impresses folks. Unfortunately, a war of attrition especially at sea doesn't respond to glitz. Winning such a war requires people.
"The new ship here is fitted according to the reported increase of knowledge among mankind. Namely, she is cumbered end to end, with bells and trumpets and clock and wires, it has been told to me, can call voices out of the air of the waters to con the ship while her crew sleep. But sleep thou lightly, O Nakoda. It has not yet been told to me that the Sea has ceased to be the Sea." (Rudyard Kipling)
Old Dog New Trick
04-14-2019, 13:15
Update over on the USS Fitzgerald.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=650930&postcount=42