View Full Version : USS Fitzgerald Rammed by ACX Crystal
Interesting bit of information. The Crystal did a U turn to come back to ram the Fitzgerald,, then another U turn to leave the area,, without offering any assistance..
Have ISIS terrorist taken to upping their game of using vehicles to further their cause??
We are helping the Filipinos fight the muzzy insurrections.
The collision occurred near Yokosuka, a Japanese port city that is home to the US 7th Fleet, which comprises up to 80 submarines and ships and including the USS Fitzgerald.
It is unclear where the 154-metre (505ft) guided missile destroyer ship was heading at the time.
The ACX Crystal, a 222-metre (730ft) Filipino-flagged container ship, was travelling between the Japanese cities of Nagoya and Tokyo.
Marine traffic records suggest the ACX Crystal made a sudden U-turn roughly 25 minutes before the collision with the USS Fitzgerald. It is not clear why it changed course.
Marine traffic records suggest it was travelling at 14.6 knots (27km/h) at the time of the collision.
https://citifmonline.com/2017/06/17/uss-fitzgerald-crash-seven-navy-crew-missing-off-japan/
Data point: The Crystal is 50% longer and 5X the tonnage of the Fitz.. I'm surprised it did not cut the Fitz in half..
I've seen several maritime tracking sites showing the same thing. What bother's me is that a US Navy Destroyer should be able to not only track but to easily out maneuver a lumbering container ship. :confused:
Pat
Old Dog New Trick
06-18-2017, 09:51
RIP to the fallen Sailors may their families find solace and pride in their service.
Now, having seen pictures of both. Someone's head on board the Fitzgerald should roll.
Container ship had right of way. Also size matters - even if in doubt yield to the bus.
Team Sergeant
06-18-2017, 09:53
I've seen several maritime tracking sites showing the same thing. What bother's me is that a US Navy Destroyer should be able to not only track but to easily out maneuver a lumbering container ship. :confused:
Pat
Yeah..... someone was NOT doing their jobs............ someone needs to go to prison for the deaths of 7 sailors. I hate, hate, lazy, complacent military leaders.
Has no one told the navy we are at war?
Any bets the container cpt was a muslim? :munchin
What happened to the folks in charge of the vessel?
Prayers out!:(
Holly
The Reaper
06-18-2017, 11:27
Preliminary reports look a lot like a deliberate act by the Crystal.
I will reserve judgement until the facts are all in.
The Captain appears to be among the casualties.
TR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne%E2%80%93Evans_collision
Remember this?
Junior officers at the helm, loss of situational awareness. Turned, then turned again until they put their vessel squarely into the path of an aircraft carrier, said aircraft carrier cut them in half.
Or this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Andrea_Doria
A "radar assisted collision" of navigational solution #2, below.
I suspect the problem may have been a combination of the two, and reminds
us all -- whether on land, at sea, or in the air:
IF THE BEARING BETWEEN YOU AND ANOTHER VESSEL REMAINS CONSTANT
OVER TIME, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE OF TWO NAVIGATIONAL SOLUTIONS:
1 - You are on a parallel course.
2 - You are on a collision course.
The distinction requires the navigator to note the change of range that exists in the situation of a collision course.
Similar collision of USS Porter and MV Otowasan: Bridge Audio (http://s3.amazonaws.com/hamptonroadscom/store/3541.mp3)
Pat
Divemaster
06-18-2017, 19:46
Might need to update the Ramadan Killathon thread.
Preliminary reports look a lot like a deliberate act by the Crystal.
I will reserve judgement until the facts are all in.
The Captain appears to be among the casualties.
TR
Yes, sir. I concur. I'm just this old hump-backed fire horse-fart full of more opinion and piss than patience and brains. Just can't ignore the frustrating decline in Command-at-sea leadership with corruption and immorality that we've seen lately, but what-the-hell, this may not be anything new either. I just rage inside over the waste of it all and I'm not proud of my rage. I've served in ships where the wardroom was terrified to call their CO in the middle of the night and on others where they wouldn't call because they had become arrogant and thought they could figure out any problem on their own. There's a philosophy maybe an assumption of leadership and Command, but there is likewise assumptions in follower-ship. Either or both can fail, and always seem to fail when the timing is at it's worst. I can't imagine the absolute grief of the families of those lost, and likewise the agony and collapse of spirit the CO and crew feels right now. I have every confidence that the Navy will wring out every fact in the JAG. The CO will surely be relieved for cause at the very least, and others will face Courts Martial's, but none of that will console the grieving loved ones. In those ships where morale is high and the crew confident so much success is the result of consistent training and damned good leadership, but almost as much from pure dumb luck.
"Sleep thou lightly, O Nakoda...it has not been told to me that the sea has ceased to be the sea." I guess Kipling had a valid point.
Yeah..... someone was NOT doing their jobs............ someone needs to go to prison for the deaths of 7 sailors. I hate, hate, lazy, complacent military leaders.
Has no one told the navy we are at war?
Any bets the container cpt was a muslim? :munchin
Sir, nothing the Muzzies do should surprise anyone. No doubt some know we're up against an enemy with resolution, and some have their heads up their collective asses, and still others are morally ill equipped to fight. You're right, of course, that someone wasn't doing their job. Probably more than one. Operational ships at sea are like any semi-large fighting force, and when SHTF there are heroes and dumb shits. Failures are almost always a cascade of failures in training or materiel failures, or just lousy luck. Rarely a single point of failure. There are sadly elements in all our military who haven't heard that we are indeed at war. It's not unique to the Navy, but right now the Navy sure appears in the dark. I share your hatred of "lazy complacent leadership".
Streck-Fu
06-19-2017, 06:24
If the information is correct, It appears that the MCX Chrystal first made a right turn just before the collision, then after, returned to an easterly direction before U-turing to return to area of the a collision.
It seems that such a right turn is consistent with an avoidance maneuver if the Chrystal was heading east and the Fitzgerald heading south.
The Chrystal did fail to report the collision for an hour or so which added confusion to the timeline. It may answer why the collision was thought to have occurred after the U-turn when it actually happened before.
Old Dog New Trick
06-19-2017, 07:59
If the information is correct, It appears that the MCX Chrystal first made a right turn just before the collision, then after, returned to an easterly direction before U-turing to return to area of the a collision.
It seems that such a right turn is consistent with an avoidance maneuver if the Chrystal was heading east and the Fitzgerald heading south.
The Chrystal did fail to report the collision for an hour or so which added confusion to the timeline. It may answer why the collision was thought to have occurred after the U-turn when it actually happened before.
I haven't done more than read about this in the newspapers (not much there) the pictures of damage to both ships is consistent with the GPS track of the Crystal making an abrupt right turn assisted by the Fitzgerald. (Container ships don't make 90-degree turns) - surprised it has its cargo. I'd bet the Philippine crew had their hands full just figuring out what the hell just happened.
If the Fitzgerald was running dark and there were lots of other ships at the time I could see the Crystal crew not fully understand what happened.
The US or the Japanese governments are telling us the Crystal never reported the collision for an hour. What's the Captians log book contain?
There needs to be and will be an investigation and as CSB pointed out sometimes radar has its faults (humans).
Again, I'll say it again. The MCX Crystal had right of way and the Fitzgerald was responsible to avoid the collision. This is based solely on the points of impact - wouldn't matter if the Crystal was heading east or west or north or south. The Crystal was starboard of the Fitzgerald at a crossing or overtaking angle. Fitzgerald should have yielded. Unless there was an active operation to stop the Crystal at sea for boarding and this happened...there had better be some documentation to to support that...not crew and Captain sleeping in their berths.
bblhead672
06-19-2017, 07:59
Having been on board a submarine at periscope depth that collided with another submarine which was on the surface, I can agree that most likely junior officer of the deck failed to understand the situation and act appropriately. In my case the junior officer, recently qualified to stand officer of the deck, confused the running lights and failed to recognize that the other submarine was coming at us instead of away from us.
Whether or not the cargo ship was attempting to ram the destroyer or not, the superior maneuverability of the warship should have allowed it to evade a collision.
Old Dog New Trick
06-19-2017, 08:14
I started sailing at 14 and later racing sailboats as a Captain of the boat at 16 and then by chance spent three years on a MAROPS team before retirement. Of all the times I nearly died on the water it was at night navigating by lights, sound, and instruments.
Complacency, distraction, overconfidence or just ignorance will get you into trouble fast.
This picture of the Crystal track brings up a point I made in another thread. How often are data points taken??
1)Using WAG, I think the data points of the Crystal track at the time of impact, are about 7-10 minutes apart.
2)Using WAG, If you look at the distanced covered between the data points. The closer the marks the slower the ship, and the further apart the faster the ship. That would mean that some data points are up to 1 miles apart.
If the collision happened at point X, it appears the Crystal had speed up, possibly to avoid collision?? and the right angle is only because of the time elapse between data points.
Just found this Burke class destroyer rudder stress test..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzveUz-WRGQ
REF: The small island Toshima is aprox 1.6 miles in diameter.
Team Sergeant
06-19-2017, 09:47
Complacency, distraction, overconfidence or just ignorance will get you into trouble fast.
Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyer can probably track, in real time, 100 ships and 100 aircraft..........
This "collision" should have never have happened, ever. Not to a US "combat" warship.
Those seven dead are the fault of the failed Navy leadership.
Those seven dead are the fault of the failed Navy leadership.
Concur, sir. IMHO, good leadership can fail and sometimes bad leaders can appear heroic. There's never an excuse for failure when the lives of your crew depend on you. When you fail, you have to own it. The good leader owns it and the shitty leader blames everything and everyone else. We'll learn more when the JAG is done. They'll look at tracks of both ships, weather, visibility, the deck and CIC logs, the night orders written by the CO, the training records, qualifications and performance records of the watch standers, witness testimonies, and every scrap of similar information they can get from the merchant, and more. They'll know what happened, but whether they ever find out why is another matter. But, knowing what or even why won't change the fact that seven sailors died, and that the CO is ultimately responsible. Like you said, TS, "failed Navy leadership".
ddoering
06-19-2017, 14:03
I foresee the Navy losing confidence in the ship Captain's abilities and he will be removed to a shore job pending retirement/removal from service.
Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyer can probably track, in real time, 100 ships and 100 aircraft..........
This "collision" should have never have happened, ever. Not to a US "combat" warship.
Those seven dead are the fault of the failed Navy leadership.
Agreed,,
I was only talking to the world tracking system used by the commercial systems and the track chart being used by MSM as a talking point.
The real data points as tracked by the Fitz and the Crystal will tell the story..
I foresee the Navy losing confidence in the ship Captain's abilities and he will be removed to a shore job pending retirement/removal from service.
I foresee Navy leadership assigning a second (civilian) Captain on all ships to oversee (counter-command) AKA Political officer.
I foresee Navy leadership assigning a second (civilian) Captain on all ships to oversee (counter-command) AKA Political officer.
Unfortunately, sir, you'll probably see what will look like the results of an investigation into a plane crash, and that is to bury the incident in information and data, make bold resolutions as to what should "never be allowed to happen again", assign blame, Court Martial the guilty and praise the dead, blah, blah. When stupid hits the fan it's rarely one thing but a whole damned library of things, both materiel and personnel.
Here're some questions:
What were the orders and were they being followed?
Were all watch standers (including lookouts) stationed, trained and qualified?
Was all equipment operating at 100%.
What was the visibility? At that lat/long the moon sat at 2018, and the wreck happened at either 0130 or 0220 (depending on who you listen to) so no moon.
The ACX was enr from Nagoya to Tokyo. Was there a Coastal Pilot on board? Should there be?
Wsa the ACX operating Iron Mike (auto-pilot)?
Who was the OOD on the DDG? Ops-boss, Navigator, a Department Head? Was that person distracted with preps for entering port and not paying attention to the surface situation?
What were the Standing Orders and Night Orders re: high density traffic schemes?
Was the ACX overtaking the DDG? If so the DDG is required to maintain course and speed.
What kind of surface watch was being maintained in CIC (Combat Info Center)?
(...and about a zillion other questions)
Sir, after diesel submarines I became an old surface warfare ship driver, and the more I wonder about what happened, etc the more pissed off I get. The CO is responsible, always. Can't get beyond that.
Political Officer? Yeah, right. That would make the ship more effective and the crew safer, huh? Kind of like gun control.
Team Sergeant
06-21-2017, 12:46
Political Officer? Yeah, right. That would make the ship more effective and the crew safer, huh? Kind of like gun control.
Already have them in the military, they are called "JAGS". They have infiltrated all the way down to battalion level. They should only be at Special Forces Command level and above. They have time and time again thwarted combat missions all over the world.
You call them jags, I call them marplots.
IMHO, this is a good read, and if not "good" well then emotionally real. Being a sailor is no more challenging than any other military role, but it has its own tough road from time to time and its own rewards. Who knows what the final JAG is going to reveal. One thing is certain, seven sailors are still on patrol, and one of them gave his life trying to get his shipmates out of that flooded birthing space. The hole left by the ACX Crystal measured 10x10x14x14. Pretty damned big hole. Anyway...
To The Fightin’ Fitz
By Sean Patrick Hughes
We don’t write books or make movies about the men and women who drive ships any more. But maybe we should.
There’s nothing quite like it. There’s no peace like the peace you step into when you walk out onto the bridge wing to see a million stars, brighter than you’ve ever seen poking holes in the pitch black sky. And the only sound is the slow crash of the bow as it plunges through the rolling sea, casting off that eerie green glow. The smell of burnt coffee and the taste of Copenhagen seep into you as you wedge yourself in next to the empty captain’s chair to keep your eyes on the horizon for a while because you’ve got a thousand miles behind you and a thousand more to go on en route to places unknown, no course change for days.
That’s the beauty when it’s slow. And quiet.
When it’s not, it’s frantic. It’s living geometry. It’s the constant math of your speed and your heading and how long you have until your next decision. Because when you’re moving that unforgiving monster, wrong decisions are expensive. You only get to make them once. You’ve got one eye on the channel, one eye on the traffic, one eye on the aircrafts landing on you and one eye on the bottom of wherever you are. Because if you don’t keep enough space between you and anything else or enough water under you, it’s all over for someone. You’re standing on 9,000 tons of steel and machinery plowing through the water with the force of a couple hundred tractor trailers. Mastering it is the height of man’s mastery over physics.
It’s a hell of a task.
But that’s not the hardest part. The hardest part is the life. It’s living, forever, stuck one foot in two worlds. Bored or stressed. Nothing in between. It’s coming off the bridge of the ship at 7Am after five hours of watch and walking into the blinding light of the wardroom to eat and start your day. Because the ship and your team don’t care that you were up all night driving. The shaft is still turning and the war is still going. So you try to gut your way until noon and the fatigue starts to shut you down whether you like it or not. Then you grab what sleep you can, hope that nothing your team runs breaks and get ready to do it again on the mid-watch.
Six on, eighteen off. Six on. Twelve off. The days blur together. You talk on the radio in your sleep. And you run drills so often you can still remember the cadence of your tasking fifteen years later as you sit down to write a blog post about it.
I did three deployments in the ten years I served on active duty as a surface warfare officer in the Navy. Two attached to SEAL Team One. And one, on an Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer, the same class of ship as the USS Fitzgerald that collided with a Philippine flagged container ship off the coast of Japan a few days ago. Nothing about the two war time deployments I did in special operations took out of me what normal life on board that ship did. It’s gritty, brutal, thankless work. And it’s done by people who aren’t looking to cash in on a career of motivational speaking or book signing when they get done.
It’s done by hard men and women, often times with nowhere else in the world to turn.
It’s done by sailors.
I don’t have any idea what happened on the USS Fitzgerald when it collided with that massive merchant. But I have a pretty good idea what happened before it. And what happened after. Someone somewhere was putting up with a pace and a level of personal sacrifice few will ever know just to do the job of a sailor. And someone was running towards the rushing water and flooding compartments instead of away from them. Because they knew that’s the only way to keep the old girl afloat. And that was their duty. Above all.
Ship. Shipmate. Self. The unfair code of the sailor.
Every time a ship of war pulls back into the harbor, it’s a celebration of the iron men and women who bring her in. It’s a damn hard life. Harder than you can imagine. The Fightin Fitz pulled in seven souls light this time. Honor them like fallen heroes. Because that’s exactly what they are.
https://chartwellwest.com/2017/06/19/to-the-fightin-fitz/
USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62) Petty Officer First Class Gary Rehm, Jr. did what he felt was his only option. Seems it was a family trait, too. RIP with gratitude, hero. Fair winds and following seas.
USS Fitzgerald Sailor Sacrificed Himself to Save Lives after the Crash
One of the 7 sailors who died aboard the USS Fitzgerald saved more than a dozen of his fellow shipmates before he ultimately lost his own life, The Daily Beast reported.
The USS Fitzgerald collided with a Philippine-flagged merchant vessel about 56 miles off the coast of Japan on Saturday.
Seven sailors were later found dead in flooded compartments on the ship.
When the Fitzgerald collided with the merchant ship, 37-year-old Fire Controlman 1st Class Gary Leo Rehm Jr., "leapt into action," according to The Daily Beast.
The Fitzgerald was struck below the waterline, and Rehm Jr.'s family was told by the Navy that he went under and saved at least 20 sailors, according to WBNS-10TV in Columbus, Ohio.
But when he went back down to get the other six sailors, the ship began to take on too much water, and the hatch was closed, WBNS-10TV said.
"That was Gary to a T," Rehm Jr.'s friend Christopher Garguilo, told NBC4i in Columbus, Ohio. "He never thought about himself."
"He called [the sailors on the ship] his kids," his uncle, Stanley Rehm Jr., told The Daily Beast. "He said, 'If my kids die, I'm going to die.'"
Rehm Jr. was known to invite "his kids" over to his house in Virginia when their ship was docked in the US, his uncle said. "He was always ready to help anybody who needed it. He was just that kind of guy."
"Gary was one of those guys that always had a smile on his face," Daniel Kahle, who had served with Rehm Jr. on the USS Ponce, told The Chronicle-Telegram. "(Gary was) such a great guy and (it's) such a great loss. He needs to be remembered for the person we all knew him to be."
Rehm Jr.'s uncle told The Daily Beast that he followed in the footsteps of his grandfather by joining the Navy straight out of high school.
Rehm Jr. was considering retiring soon but also hoped to make captain one day, his uncle told The Daily Beast.
The Fitzgerald is named after another sailor, Navy Lt. William Fitzgerald, who, like his father, also joined the Navy right out of high school.
In August 1967, he was advising South Vietnamese forces at a compound near the Tra Khuc River delta when they came under heavy Vietcong fire.
Fitzgerald ordered the South Vietnamese forces and civilians to escape into the river on small boats, but he was killed while covering their escape with small-arms fire.
Rehm Jr. was raised in Elyria, Ohio, and is survived by his wife, Erin
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/21/uss-fitzgerald-sailor-sacrificed-himself-save-lives-crash.html
Team Sergeant
06-27-2017, 18:30
Very sad those sailors died because of a serious lack of leadership.
I started sailing at 14 and later racing sailboats as a Captain of the boat at 16 and then by chance spent three years on a MAROPS team before retirement. Of all the times I nearly died on the water it was at night navigating by lights, sound, and instruments.
Complacency, distraction, overconfidence or just ignorance will get you into trouble fast.
Very well said OD. As a former navigator on schooners, I can attest to how complicated it can be at night especially on busy shipping lanes. And the need to be on extra guard and to take neccessary action by fore-seeing a problem before it happens.
Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyer can probably track, in real time, 100 ships and 100 aircraft..........
This "collision" should have never have happened, ever. Not to a US "combat" warship.
Those seven dead are the fault of the failed Navy leadership.
Something or a bunch of things led one thing after another to this terrible tragedy. Totally agree this should not have happened.
I just cannot understand for the life of me, how it did happen. Especially to a good ship with the most advanced equipment of the AB class.
Old Dog New Trick
08-17-2017, 16:08
That was fast.
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Commander of stricken destroyer Fitzgerald relieved after Navy report cites failures
https://usat.ly/2x8KuqB
Lots of heads rolling.
And heads should definitely roll, sir.
Read a redacted version of CARGRU-5s preliminary findings and the egress of sailors from the disaster of their crushed berthing space in neck deep water in the dark is nothing short of amazing. As is typical there were deeds above and beyond to save lives and the ship itself.
You call them jags, I call them marplots.
JAGS=Lawyers
Law Schools, almost all, teach, advocate, restraints. If you need a go/no go mission authorization via a JAG O, its a no go for you. His training as a legal official and reluctant Mil/O, is a personal risk/reward scenario.
Old Dog New Trick
09-11-2017, 11:11
This could go in both...
Exclusive: US Navy ships in deadly collisions had dismal training records - CNN
https://apple.news/Ak7wLimutT2WHn4Ux9CfXRg
Now tell us something we don't know about why this happened since 2015? And yes, I'm sure it went all the way to the top (somewhere above SecNav?)
Thing I don't get though is if you are doing your job isn't that 'training' (OJT) and the problem is not correcting training deficiencies but rubber stamping the process?
Certification and Training? Didn't have enough officers back at base to conduct it?
I remember certification training back in the day but that was because we were away from our MOS duties and doing stuff like post support.
But when you're on a ship aren't you doing your job every day? If you're manning the helm wasn't at some point someone senior to you checking you out to make sure you're doing it right? Same for every other manual job?
Electronics? Don't they have a program they can run simulations through? Damage control?
Starting to sound like a bunch of sailors don't know their jobs.
JMHO, sirs, but there's no damned excuse for the poor material condition, readiness, or training in the 7th Fleet AOR. While all the attention is currently on the four individual ships that either ran into the planet or into other ships, there is a legitimate concern for every other class of ship in the Navy including CVNs, aircraft, SSNs, and MSC (resupply ships). The Fleet leadership failed; rather it was allowed to fail from poor oversight. Yes, sir, the root cause goes up the chain and back for years, and there's not any person (military or civilian) in that COC who is free of blame.
As an observer, QP warriors and the QP culture is not necessarily exempt but are surely blessed because they focus the marrow of their spirit on the individual and the team, and they accept good training and readiness of both the individual and the team as totally unacceptable. They only accept excellence in training and excellence in readiness, and that's one of the cornerstones of the QP community. Leadership in some of the other communities is also superior for the rank-and-file, such as in the aviation community (spare parts notwithstanding), submarines, rescue swimmers, etc. The unfortunate majority of our military can't always depend on excellent or even superior leadership. Often leaders are strong, maybe even superior, but they're mixed in with slack or even piss-poor leaders. More than once I worked for an immediate superior who was a great leader but the next step up the guy was useless. A lot of it, too, depends on the person being led and their willingness to follow the example and doing all they can to meet the challenge.
And another thing: DoD and the Navy years ago bought into reduced manning and automated systems, and their acquisitions processes were turned over to industry such as Northrup-Grumman and Lockheed-Martin. That was a mistake for the motive shifted from effective service to complete specific mission areas and toward profit and business growth. Maintenance responsibility shifted from ships force to contractors. The bean-counters prevailed and the warriors suffered.
It's a culture problem, too. Military commanders when given an order stand up and say, "Aye-aye", and then do their damndest to complete the mission. That's fine if the leadership and training are sound, and the equipment is up-sweet-and-hot. It grieves me to say it for I dearly love my Navy, but it was failed by its own leadership and America was failed in the process. No damned excuse. None.
JMHO.
Old Dog New Trick
09-11-2017, 19:08
Larry, you are correct in saying it's a cultural problem but it's been a culture that allows sub-standard performance to go unchecked.
Part of the problem and this is military wide is trying to accept, promote and enforce a culture that is wholly incompatible with military service. The last SecDef and all the minions under him pushed social agendas and policies ahead of sound judgment and ethics.
The military lost and it cost lives.
Larry, you are correct in saying it's a cultural problem but it's been a culture that allows sub-standard performance to go unchecked.
Part of the problem and this is military wide is trying to accept, promote and enforce a culture that is wholly incompatible with military service. The last SecDef and all the minions under him pushed social agendas and policies ahead of sound judgment and ethics.
The military lost and it cost lives.
The most concerning angle is wondering how much senior military leaders changed how they think and behave after the social rebuilding that went on under the last administration. Senior leaders that went to advanced schooling under the last administration learned that wonderful skill known as "critical thinking" but they forgot to pay attention during the class about speaking truth to power.
The questions that nag at me are:
-which leaders are silently loyal to the outgoing administration and their agenda
-which leaders are silently supportive of the current administration's agenda
-which ones are going to be the most willing to play the long game on behalf of the USA instead of taking on a career as a Militician
We live in interesting times
The questions that nag at me are:
-which leaders are silently loyal to the outgoing administration and their agenda
-which leaders are silently supportive of the current administration's agenda
-which ones are going to be the most willing to play the long game on behalf of the USA instead of taking on a career as a Militician
We live in interesting times
Yes, sir. The deepest questions when going to a new command or being on the receiving end of a change of command is, "What is it going to be like working for this guy?" In submarines one wonders what this guy looks like when he's scared, or really pissed off. Those kinds of things affect everybody on a boat when you're at 400 feet and spring a leak. (I'm a diesel boat sailor and don't do stuff below 400 feet. Just saying...)
In the case of the current Navy situation I'd shitcan everyone from SECNAV to the ship Captains, as well as all the civilian staffers. All of those people let down the Navy and placed America at risk.
Yes, sir..."interesting times" indeed.
Old Dog New Trick
09-12-2017, 11:12
In the case of the current Navy situation I'd shitcan everyone from SECNAV to the ship Captains, as well as all the civilian staffers. All of those people let down the Navy and placed America at risk.
Yes, sir..."interesting times" indeed.
Hasn't or isn't that being done? Now if the new incoming 'leadership' is complacent or oblivious than sure sack them too.
While it may be totally unrealistic I'd ground (pun unintended) any ship that isn't currently staffed and certified and begin remedial training to reach certification. If a ship must continue deployments order redundant redundancy of all critical navigation and control systems.
Hasn't or isn't that being done? Now if the new incoming 'leadership' is complacent or oblivious than sure sack them too.
While it may be totally unrealistic I'd ground (pun unintended) any ship that isn't currently staffed and certified and begin remedial training to reach certification. If a ship must continue deployments order redundant redundancy of all critical navigation and control systems.
Yes, sir, many have bought the career farm (not enough, IMHO) but we still have the same Temp-SECNAV, CNO, Fleet Commanders (both LANT and PAC) and the Surface Force Commanders (LANT and PAC).
Yes, sir, tie the ships to the pier until ALL are fully certified in ALL required areas, especially seamanship, navigation, and damage control. But, who will certify them? The Marx Brothers? The problem is sourced to a failure in leadership, and it trickles down through logistics, maintenance, training, and material condition.
Who was it said "Amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics"? Sherman, I think. (Dad-gummed Army, anyway!)
bblhead672
09-12-2017, 14:22
Yes, sir. The deepest questions when going to a new command or being on the receiving end of a change of command is, "What is it going to be like working for this guy?" In submarines one wonders what this guy looks like when he's scared, or really pissed off. Those kinds of things affect everybody on a boat when you're at 400 feet and spring a leak. (I'm a diesel boat sailor and don't do stuff below 400 feet. Just saying...)
In the case of the current Navy situation I'd shitcan everyone from SECNAV to the ship Captains, as well as all the civilian staffers. All of those people let down the Navy and placed America at risk.
Yes, sir..."interesting times" indeed.
That no US submarines have been lost leads me to believe that the submarine force continues to emphasize training and equipment maintenance. As LarryW said there is something about 400 or more feet of water over your head to make you pay attention. I've been in some butt puckering situations under the sea, but never doubted the captain and crew's ability to fight the boat and control everything but a catastrophic casualty.
It seems the surface fleet needs to get back to understanding that every minute you are responsible for the lives of the ship and its crew, just as the rest of the crew is responsible for your life. It's real and not a video game that you can just reset and start over.
Badger52
09-12-2017, 15:05
It's real and not a video game that you can just reset and start over.+1 Just had a glimmer of a cartoon idea flash across the brain, in which a ship has hit something and, in making the report, some staffling/staffette ashore inquires, "Well, did you reboot?"
:rolleyes:
Old Dog New Trick
04-14-2019, 13:13
Anyone surprised?
Long read...
https://apple.news/AT5fPo9uHQBecdt-hLWQEtA
Navy’s top man ADM Richardson taints investigation with “Undue Command Influence” all remaining criminal charges dropped.
Anyone surprised?
Long read...
https://apple.news/AT5fPo9uHQBecdt-hLWQEtA
Navy’s top man ADM Richardson taints investigation with “Undue Command Influence” all remaining criminal charges dropped.
Not surprised at all. Big mouth. Little feet. If the shoe fits...swallow it.
Reminds me of all the jumps to conclusion a Flag made during the IOWA disaster.