View Full Version : Multi CCW situations a danger?
Scimitar
10-07-2015, 19:56
I have a colleague who argues that a bunch of uncoordinated civilian CCWs is just a recipe for disaster.
I lack the experience to argue with him, but it does beg the question, be it that I am a novice in this realm, in my mind I see 3-4 non-coordinated civilian CCWs zeroing in on gun fire, and firing on each other instead? Tell me this hasn't happened.
Having dedicated CCWs in a closed environment like a school is one thing, they can know each other, but what about a strip mall situation?
Am I simply misunderstanding how a situation like this goes down?
S
Generally speaking, the weapon isn't the threat...the person holding the weapon is and subsequently, the person doing "bad things" with that weapon becomes the target.
Your mall scenario is one where maturity and training plays a great part. You don't want a mall full of CCW's who simply shoot at the guy with a gun just because he has a gun. That is where their training will play a major part in how they react in that type of situation.
Old Dog New Trick
10-07-2015, 20:44
It can go one, two, or more ways: all bad. Too many variables, situation and location will determine whether it goes north or south. Also how fast it will turn into a shit sandwich, or be over.
The only thing the police have in their favor are uniforms (marksmanship is not any strong point for them either.) Every UC officer (should) understand he's a target running around in an active event and carry/conceal effectively or get shot.
Anyone who truly wants to carry and put themselves in a situation should take many courses and read much info on the subject to learn as much as possible before they think about being a hero, because it's just as easy to be a zero.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is that the threat is neutralized and the event ends with the lowest loss of life. That's success.
If three to four CCW citizens are in a mall they will all see something different from a different POV/angle if you are one of them and engaging the bad guy with fire, it is very likely you may get shot by the guy who sees you as the threat. The threat may now, not be neutralized.
In a school/classroom situation it is more likely that everyone in the room knows the threat in the room with them...conversely those with CCW entering a room is an unknown to anyone in the room, therefore a new or continuing threat.
After that, stop shooting, put your gun away and prepare to be treated like a criminal until the smoke clears...then get a lawyer.
I always think about this everyday, everywhere I go: restaurant, movie theater, mall, my kids elementary school, grocery store, pumping gas, around the house, etc...and WORK. When I'm with my family, my eight year old son, they come first. On my time - it's my family first! At work - that's different but I can do no good if I become "neutralized" by a friendly.
The sooner the event ends and the closer it stays to where it started the better outcome for all involved. Better to end within a matter of seconds after it began or total chaos will ensue with tactical loss of control.
...but what about a strip mall situation?
Am I simply misunderstanding how a situation like this goes down?
S
Where has that happened? Even if it does, it still may save many more lives.
In the Gifford's shooting in Tucson, there was at least one, possibly two, guys carrying. They couldn't get a clear shot because of background civilians. How many were shot because of their hesitation. Not saying that they were wrong, I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger either, just saying that they couldn't know how much more damage would be done because they didn't. You play the hand that's dealt you. ;)
Pat
Team Sergeant
10-07-2015, 20:48
Couldn't be worse than two NYC cops shooting into a crowd and wounding 19 people while attempting to shoot one bad guy.
We've been carrying weapons for our entire history and that "recipe" has yet to manifest itself.
Your "colleague" is misinformed or uneducated in this area and not an expert by any means.
Old Dog New Trick
10-07-2015, 20:58
Here, I'm going to rephrase what I said.
1) Treat all firearms as if they are loaded.
2) Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Identify and know your target, backstop and beyond.
4) Never point a gun at anything, anyone, you are not willing to kill or destroy.
Follow those rules and everything will end well for everybody but the bad guy.
Divemaster
10-07-2015, 21:45
In an active shooter among sheeple assuming the fetal position, how the hell could it be worse than what would unfold with zero permit holders taking action?
Is it dangerous for "uncoordinated civilians"? Damn right it is. In 1892 there were four friendly KIA in Coffeyville, Kansas as the town pretty much wiped out the Dalton Gang.
If the good guns prevail, think of all the money it would save CNN. They wouldn't spend the money to fly their entire news organization to the scene to broadcast around the clock for days at a time. However, if there is even one friendly fire casualty the MSM will be pissing themselves in glee over the new story line. One person killed by a good guy will be the lead, ignoring the dozens saved from harm.
As for multiple CCWs, I've got three and they are well coordinated in my back pocket.
What's in your wallet?
multi CCW situations are no more of a danger than TRAINED POLICEMEN going into the wrong house and shooting each other....
...someone tell me again why I should even pretend to care about a "multi-CCW threat" when the cops that get paid to be awesome cant be trusted to act without endangering other people?
danger schmanger
Scimitar
10-07-2015, 22:37
My buddy is as uneducated as I am on how a multi-CCW situation would go down.
But in my favor, I struggle to be aware of this occurring often if ever. Where a CCW in a situation gets confused for the bad guy, and chaos ensues.
I guess in most, "I'm a nut bag, I'm a criminal, or I'm a terrorist" situations, the bad guy is pretty obvious?
But under typical "combat" heart rate ramp up situations chance of error increases dramatically. I'm surprised this isn't a common occurrence.
But if there ain't a problem, don't fix it I guess? It would seem the current level of CCW training is enough to ward off the "multi CCWs screw up" situation."?
S
I have a colleague who argues that a bunch of uncoordinated civilian CCWs is just a recipe for disaster.
That mentality is why there are problems. It boils down to one thing for your friend and people like him. They are afraid of their fellow humans. I would much rather have "a bunch of uncoordinated civilian CCW" carriers running around than not. It is those carriers that will end up at the pointy end of the spear in an active shooter scenario, not cops. When is the last time you have heard of an active shooter going in and shooting up a police station (other than "The Terminator")?
Where a CCW in a situation gets confused for the bad guy, and chaos ensues.
Yeah because that happens all the time, doesn't it? Don't you think the media would highlight those cases if they ever occurred to bolster their "only the police should have guns" nonsense?
ODNT
Here, I'm going to rephrase what I said.
1) Treat all firearms as if they are loaded.
2) Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Identify and know your target, backstop and beyond.
4) Never point a gun at anything, anyone, you are not willing to kill or destroy.
Follow those rules and everything will end well for everybody but the bad guy.
Thank you for stating 4 number 1 rules.
Should be a required mantra for every CCW holder.
Oldrotorhead
10-08-2015, 07:43
if you are ever involved in an active shooter incident.
If you have a weapon visible when LE arrives the possibility of being shot is high.
As soon as the bad guy is down your cell phone is your friend if you hold it near your ear. Using Blue Tooth not so much.
If you are not doing first aid move away from anyone who who is down.
DanHeller88
10-09-2015, 00:32
In one of the Pistol courses I attended, taught by a CW4 I believe, he gave us a whole speech at the beginning that has forever stuck with me.
You walk into a convenience store and head to the back to get a soda. Upon getting to the freezer you hear someone come in. You grab your soda, then turn around to head to the register when you see the man who just entered with a gun pointed at the clerk. The clerk presses the silent alarm below the counter before raising his hands.
As you draw your weapon, the suspect shoots the clerk. You then follow up with shots on him. When the suspect goes down, you go in to assess the situation and make sure the threat is neutralized.
At the same time a police officer was arriving. As he exits his vehicle, he sees you closing in on a body gun drawn. The police officer then opens fire on you.
No matter who you find right or wrong is the situation, it is a pretty accurate description of how the chain of events seem to go. It certainly has stayed in my mind anytime I consider carrying a weapon.
No matter who you find right or wrong is the situation, it is a pretty accurate description of how the chain of events seem to go.
Really? When has that actually happened? :confused:
Pat
DanHeller88
10-09-2015, 02:08
Really? When has that actually happened? :confused:
Pat
Buddy of mine is a cop here in NY. Off duty he drew on a guy who stabbed someone in front of him at the movie theater. Another off duty cop so happened to be there as well and drew down on him. Luckily that ended quickly because he keeps his badge next to his holster.
Not saying this is a common situation by any means. I just know that example given to me by the instructor definitely gave me some food for thought.
Buddy of mine is a cop here in NY. Off duty he drew on a guy who stabbed someone in front of him at the movie theater. Another off duty cop so happened to be there as well and drew down on him. Luckily that ended quickly because he keeps his badge next to his holster.
Not saying this is a common situation by any means. I just know that example given to me by the instructor definitely gave me some food for thought.
Stay home, under your bed.:boohoo
Flagg, your friend must be absolutely terrified of driving anywhere. Imagine the potential carnage of thousands of people hurtling along at 50-60-70+ mph in multi-ton vehicles with only signs, road paint and streetlights to passively guide them, while they distractedly fiddle with radios, text, put on makeup, eat, read a book or otherwise split their attention away from their primary task. Surely every road must be the scene of a daily bloodbath.
Buddy of mine is a cop here in NY. Off duty he drew on a guy who stabbed someone in front of him at the movie theater. Another off duty cop so happened to be there as well and drew down on him. Luckily that ended quickly because he keeps his badge next to his holster.
So your buddy wasn't shot by the on-duty cop? Guess the hypothetical scenario didn't actually play out then, did it?
Read what happened during the Nairobi Mall attack. As (18B) Weaponsman puts it: (http://weaponsman.com/?p=25922)
Kenya’s policy of issuing concealed carry licenses to trusted individuals worked to the benefit of all here. Contrary to popular expectation, the licensees worked well with each other and with the police. We hope Kenya will consider expanding the policy.
An ad-hoc, self-organized response right here right now, is not only “not necessarily bad,” but might be a lot better than the perfect, coordinated SWAT raid an hour from now. (And as we’ve seen, the raid was not perfect and coordinated).
Sure, there are very real risks. But they beat the hell out of sitting around waiting for the Only Ones to rescue you.
Old Dog New Trick
10-09-2015, 09:50
I can't recall a time in recorded history where a good guy with a gun has made a bad guy with a gun situation worse. It happens almost daily somewhere and you will only read about it in the American Rifleman (an NRA propaganda rag). The media would rather you and the rest of the flock of sheep didn't hear about these things, it jades their talking points about gun-control and the evil about them.
The police today (with few exceptions) are better trained in regard to using lethal force than ever before; to the point of putting themselves in danger first; while rolling through the Rolodex of probable termination and civil lawsuit.
When they say drop the gun, let me see your hands, drop the gun and show your hands. It's that simple. Better to have holstered your hog leg before they get there, but just in case you are standing over the perp don't be ignorant of your surroundings. It takes less time to draw and fire (again) than it takes to reholster and react. When the cops get there you are guilty until proven otherwise. Assume the position- empty hands on or over head.
In regards to the OP, situational awareness of all persons and actions will dictate how to proceed forward to neutralize the threat without becoming a victim too.
Cover and concealment works to your advantage in an active shooter situation. The bad guy doesn't use it until he's (or she's) in barricade mode after shots have been lobbed his way. Debating next COA - suicide, suicide by cop or surrender.
It's during this time you should know who else is and is not a threat and communicate with others how to move forward if needed at all. If the shooting has stopped or moved away from your location why are you still gun up? To test the limits of the SWAT team and responding officers? Or the scared shitless dude/dudette hiding behind the flower pot fumbling with a gun they know nothing about. (Yell at them and tell them who you are and to put their gun away unless someone is shooting at them!)
Unless you have specific training or are and will be the "only" good guy(s) with a gun. Clearing rooms and buildings is a very hazardous undertaking. Let the "threat" seek you out if possible, not the other way around. Unless you are paid to risk all for strangers. (Some of which will blame you later!) If you know the police are more than a few minutes away you are the best hope of ending the event. Communicate with others, move toward the threat and neutralize it without endangering yourself. You do no further good and will only be remembered less time than the shooter and only by those who knew you.
One last. 911 is your friend! You make the call or let someone else (trusted) make the call but, describe yourself in much detail: "I'm ________ (race), ______ (sex), 5'10", _______ (color hair), wearing blue jeans and red/white shirt and dark ball cap. I have a concealed carry permit and I'm in/on the _______ (location) to stop the threat. My name is ______ (first name)." If you've seen/know the perpetrator(s) describe what you know about them, same info! (If you could be confused - well, make a good judgment call, or decide not to act. Because someone else is giving 911 a description too.)
Then, it's all mental mind games. All the time, everywhere you are. Where's the nearest EXIT, where is/was last/next COVER, SCAN everyone around you 360* and then rescan the ones that made you pause the first time. Mental preparation is the "action" done before your "reaction" because that is what you will do, not what you would have wanted to do.
Scimitar
10-09-2015, 10:27
Great post ODNT!
Perfect example, the human tendency to not shoot if unsure, decreases the chance of a cluster fuck, of CCW firing on each other.
Thanks
S
Team Sergeant
10-09-2015, 11:27
Stay home, under your bed.:boohoo
LOL couldn't agree more.
Old Dog New Trick
10-09-2015, 12:25
Great post ODNT!
Perfect example, the human tendency to not shoot if unsure, decreases the chance of a cluster fuck, of CCW firing on each other.
Thanks
S
I think you read into that too much. I said seek cover, use concealment to protect yourself (and family) and communicate (visually or verbally) with others as needed before committing to action. (Exception below)
I'm not saying to assume anyone or everyone is not going to empty their magazine in the general direction of anyone with a gun. I'm saying don't become the target.
Let's 'assume' just for a scenario, you have a concealed weapon, you and your family are walking under the largest atrium or open space of a mall and there is no cover. A gunman pulls an AR/shotgun out from under his jacket and begins shooting. You choose to draw and return fire before he hits you or turns to see you. You drop him like a turd in the toilet. You assess whether follow up is necessary, it's not. Great! Now you are the one standing in the same vicinity holding a gun. What do you think is coming your way?
After the popping of balloons or firecrackers of the moment, there will be lots of screaming and panic which will be the chaos of the moment. I trust no one in those seconds. Be the next screaming empty hands raised in the air or preferably moving your family to safety guy. Move to cover than reassess the threat. May be more than one.
ETA: let's also address training scars. High ready, high port, or this new (old) shit "Temple Index" as to where your gun goes after it's out of its holster, been used or preparing to be used. A civilian or UC officer needs to learn and practice low one-handed carry (hip/thigh) or one-handed SUL position (chest/belly) before and after engagement. It needs to be the "Go To" position if not reholstering. Anything up around face, head or upper chest region pointing out is seen as a threat. Turning to look or talk to someone is seen (interpreted) as a threat...lower their expectations!
Scimitar
10-09-2015, 13:52
Understood,
Great information, thanks
S
The Reaper
10-09-2015, 19:27
I would argue that many of us have fired more rounds than LEOs ever will, some more than entire departments, and have a level of familiarity and proficiency that would be difficult to match without an equivalent investment in time and resources.
TR
NurseTim
10-10-2015, 18:37
Since I married, I'm more concerned with protecting my wife, this includes maintaining a pulse and the ability to ply my trade. I'm not trained to go after villains, for many years now. I will fight if backed into a corner, but I'm not going after them. If that makes me a sheeple, well there it is, I am what I am.
Old Dog New Trick
10-10-2015, 20:21
Since I married, I'm more concerned with protecting my wife, this includes maintaining a pulse and the ability to ply my trade. I'm not trained to go after villains, for many years now. I will fight if backed into a corner, but I'm not going after them. If that makes me a sheeple, well there it is, I am what I am.
Yo Popeye, (I am's what I am's) LOL
You'd only be a sheeple to volunteer or sacrifice your life for nothing. To give your life in the protection of just one is honorable enough.
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Sheeple, huddle or cower in fear waiting to be slaughtered. They live in denial. At least a black sheep will stand in defiance even in the face of death and refuse to participate. What's that some one 'round here said: "Death is a farcical pile of Bullshit, and I refuse to participate."
Old Dog New Trick
10-10-2015, 22:02
I would argue that many of us have fired more rounds than LEOs ever will, some more than entire departments, and have a level of familiarity and proficiency that would be difficult to match without an equivalent investment in time and resources.
TR
I totally agree. Which is a reason I like to participate in threads like this. To impart some knowledge and pass the baton.
I've been in various ways carrying concealed weapons on and off duty the last three decades, both in military life and civilian occupation. Being around other guys on the "detail" or "team" is one thing, but having a job or responsibility where taking action in a non-permissive or open to all environment, is always in the forefront of my mind. I don't want to get shot by someone that I didn't want to shoot myself.
I remember to this day practicing my draw and dry fire on a small piece of tape on the wall for hours each day with my issued 1911. I was 19 years old and drove for a high value target Colonel and General in Germany. I didn't get to shoot much more than semiannual qualifications but went from barely qualifying with a pistol to shooting expert from just having the muscle memory and trigger control learned from dry fire.
I think this type of relentless dedication is absent the majority of people who would buy a gun for self-protection and do the minimum to get a state concealed carry permit/license. Not only is the mindset missing but the training time both on and off live fire ranges is missing from the responsibility. This troubles me. Because it's a great responsibility.
Those of us with military/LE training maybe have had the skills, training and experience to know weapons handling, marksmanship and threat/target identification burned into us, but how much of it makes us any better in a self-defense situation in a shopping center or the local watering hole. Everyone will suffer a case of target fixation and tunnel vision. Only the best and highest trained will begin to think outside that tunnel and visualize the totality of the situation. That's hard to teach, nearly impossible even for those who would seek such knowledge from professional instruction.
I think it should be testable as a "Go - No Go" standard for CPL/CCW that you can pass a simulation "Shoot/Don't Shoot" situation and pass a written test for the state with mandatory minimum national standards.
I don't want to discourage people from exercising their rights, or operating under the law, but it shouldn't come down to whether you have $50 and a clean record. The permit doesn't ensure competency and judgment.
I'm all for a "National License" (50-State Legal) that would allow anyone with this license access to all the places the government and state wish to make "off limits" and then have an accreditation process to validate it. It would require annual qualification and state/federal law tests but would give everyone who can or would get this the ability to carry where they wanted to. Schools, military installations, protected buildings, etc...
Then make it appealing to school administrators and security personnel (yes, even Paul Blart) to achieve this standard with "professional discounts" in the costs and training costs.
The military under U.S. Government funding could extend this "discount" to SOF and certain combat arms MOS's on active duty, guard/reserves, and retirees to keep on keeping on.
The police and federal LEO already do this through Credentialing and the annual qualification requirements are there, so why not all others who fit the mold?
I don't think more good people with guns is the solution to a couple/few bad people with guns. That's like good intentions gone bad, but people should have the ability to self-defense without having the desire to protect others. In a school or other declared "Gun Free Zones" that is exactly what is needed. And it doesn't have to a concealed handgun.
If the principle at Sandy Hook had had a shotgun in her office and trained to use it, Sandy Hook would have been a success story instead of a tragedy. They all know what to do in a fire drill, but they've been taught for too long that 911 is the solution to violence. It is not! The solution to violence is more violence! Hopefully the good guys come out on top.
ODNT, while you present a common sense argument, it is totally derailed by the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
I'm a pilot. Since sometime in the '80s, I think, we've been required to re-qualify every two years to maintain our licenses. So, we are forced to pay a flight instructor his fee to tell those of us with more flight time/experience than him that we are GTG? No. I stopped flying about then. I'm also an Airline Dispatcher, but I'm not required to re-qual to dispatch 50 t0 60 flights a day. (At least before I retired.) And my pilots license is not a "right".
There is no way in hell that I would pay a firearms "instructor" an annual fee to renew my 2nd Amendment Right.
ETA: My FFL only charges $10 regardless of the weapon. I'd be hard pressed to pay more than that since I used to be able to buy guns and ammo at the local hardware store.
Pat
Old Dog New Trick
10-10-2015, 22:59
Pat, I hear you.
I in no way am (intended to) stepping on a citizens right to bear arms. I would like to find a legal solution in which the current legal (but unconstitutional) "limitations" could be surpassed to allow more people access to currently denied areas and a 50-state reciprocity of those rights.
Up to me, I'd rescind the 1935 NFA and the 1968 GCA and let nature and the free market sort things out. But that ain't gonna happen.
Instead of: do the crime, do the time. It could be replaced with: Commit a crime, bleed with the rest!
I think (rightfully or wrong) that the majority of people are good, misguided but good. The government doesn't think so! So they have created a system that protects the assholes at the expense of the good people and then fails to provide equivalent protection.
Love to find a way to turn that around.
Tree Potato
10-10-2015, 23:37
...
Instead of: do the crime, do the time. It could be replaced with: Commit a crime, bleed with the rest!
I think (rightfully or wrong) that the majority of people are good, misguided but good. The government doesn't think so! So they have created a system that protects the assholes at the expense of the good people and then fails to provide equivalent protection.
...
The vast majority of people are rational actors, whether their morals or good, bad, or some mix of the two; they do what they perceive is in their own best self interest. Change the environment so that the risk of criminal activity changes to an increased chance of bleeding/death vs. jail time, and criminals' perception of what is in their own best self interest will change, as will their actions.
Much like raising children, influence their perceptions and their actions will shift.
Team Sergeant
10-11-2015, 08:40
Pat, I hear you.
I in no way am (intended to) stepping on a citizens right to bear arms. I would like to find a legal solution in which the current legal (but unconstitutional) "limitations" could be surpassed to allow more people access to currently denied areas and a 50-state reciprocity of those rights.
Up to me, I'd rescind the 1935 NFA and the 1968 GCA and let nature and the free market sort things out. But that ain't gonna happen.
Instead of: do the crime, do the time. It could be replaced with: Commit a crime, bleed with the rest!
I think (rightfully or wrong) that the majority of people are good, misguided but good. The government doesn't think so! So they have created a system that protects the assholes at the expense of the good people and then fails to provide equivalent protection.
Love to find a way to turn that around.
We've done just that with driving in this country. We lose what 50k+ on a yearly basis and 10,000 via guns. Makes perfect (liberal) sense to target the later.
Then again "driving" is a "privilege" and the Right to Bear Arms is an "inalienable" and cannot be touched.
We could suggest folks be trained better but it would be easier to teach lemmings to not run off cliffs.
I'm sure the solution is out there but taking away guns is not one of them.
The Reaper
10-11-2015, 17:53
Two of three firearms fatalities in the U.S. are suicide or drug related.
TR
There is no way in hell that I would pay a firearms "instructor" an annual fee to renew my 2nd Amendment Right.
I just remembered, I didn't pay an instructor the FIRST time. I used my DD-214. :D
Pat
Have you ever attempted to reenter friendly lines/perimeter in a combat zone.....talk about ass tightening.
All it takes is one idiot half asleep to open up and then you get the sympathetic mad minute.
You better be vocal and 360 degree aware in any civvy environment.
frostfire
10-12-2015, 22:55
Mental preparation is the "action" done before your "reaction" because that is what you will do, not what you would have wanted to do.
this is gold, and will surely be useful in my next career. Thank you.
Reminds me of you do not rise to the occasion, you sink to the bottom level of your training
A civilian or UC officer needs to learn and practice low one-handed carry (hip/thigh) or one-handed SUL position (chest/belly) before and after engagement. It needs to be the "Go To" position if not reholstering. Anything up around face, head or upper chest region pointing out is seen as a threat. Turning to look or talk to someone is seen (interpreted) as a threat...lower their expectations!
Glad to know the NRA LEO pistol/shotgun instructor advocates this method. Even more thankful to folks like TS who ingrained "surgical accuracy" in my psyche since 2004. Always came on top on every LE or marksmanship classes I attended. However, the lack of experience showed with tunnel vision as the shoot/no shoot scenarios grew more complex. Humbling and lesson learned
Overall solid instruction on how not to come across as a target to the good guys.
DanHeller88
10-13-2015, 02:35
So your buddy wasn't shot by the on-duty cop? Guess the hypothetical scenario didn't actually play out then, did it?
Yea, guess I bit that one pretty hard huh? Back to my corner....
Old Dog New Trick
12-11-2015, 16:43
Another Brave Heart from the Navy's most elite raises his political aspirations and a pen to counter the most basic principle in armed conflict.
Do you agree or disagree with his premise that it's better to not have when needed or to have and not need and take your chances?
I believe the deterrent fact alone outweighs the actual possibility of ever being in an unplanned, unpredictable and unprovoked gun fight.
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
The 'good guy with a gun' myth: Column
http://usat.ly/1Y8wdQW
Another Brave Heart from the Navy's most elite raises his political aspirations and a pen to counter the most basic principle in armed conflict.
Do you agree or disagree with his premise that it's better to not have when needed or to have and not need and take your chances?
I believe the deterrent fact alone outweighs the actual possibility of ever being in an unplanned, unpredictable and unprovoked gun fight.
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
The 'good guy with a gun' myth: Column
http://usat.ly/1Y8wdQW
He must have spent a lot of time submerged in murky water; he totally missed the obvious. Unlike a Gun Free Zone, in a Free Fire Zone the BGs don't know if any or all of their future victims will shoot back.
Pat
Totally agree Pat.
Better to have it and not need it..and even another good guy have it, too...then to be a mere target or human sacrifice hoping the BG's gun jams...folks want/deserve a fighting chance.
BG having to have head on a swivel also creates additional opportunity to fight...he does not know if a bullet is headed for the back of his head at any time. This in my mind (BG having to worry about being shot) contrasts significantly with the situation of when a BG is "all powerful" and knows he's in a gun free zone...he simple unloads and then reloads. When there may be however another weapon or two or ten...I've got to believe that situation creates windows of opportunity for the good guys.
I fully acknowledge that multiple firearms in a chaotic situation has the potential for cluster f:c& written all over it...but I personally prefer a fighting chance.
Old Dog New Trick
12-11-2015, 17:24
He must have spent a lot of time submerged in murky water; he totally missed the obvious. Unlike a Gun Free Zone, in a Free Fire Zone, the BGs don't know if any or all of their future victims will shoot back.
Pat
Yup!
I also noticed he uses "I, my, and mine" a lot. That leaves me to wonder what his teammates thought of him? (I) don't know if (I'd) want him discerning the difference between the guy shooting at everyone and all the other guys shooting at him.
I've yet to research any fast moving "mass shootings" in the last 20-years. Most are localized to one area before moving at a snails pace to the next - if they ever get that far. More like the BG wants to stand his ground.