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drivfast
02-13-2015, 16:46
Good afternoon guys,

I have limited pistol experience, including the training the Army gave me, and what I have studied and practiced since. I have some video captures of a draw stroke from a Dale Fricke Archangel appendix rig with my HK P30 9mm. There are 23 image files so I will need to make several posts and I apologize for that. I am hoping that those better trained and more experienced than myself would be willing to give a critique of anything they see that I am doing wrong or could improve upon. I also have the video if anyone cares to see it. here is the link: http://youtu.be/Nr9TH0lW7Z4 This was over the Holidays in Montana. the weather was approx. 20-25 degrees F. I had practiced the draw stroke and trigger squeeze using the holster with snap caps for a few hours the night prior using a 1 inch black dot on a B-29 target. Any constructive criticism or critique would be greatly appeciated.

Thanks Gents!

drivfast
02-13-2015, 16:48
pictures

drivfast
02-13-2015, 16:50
pictures

drivfast
02-13-2015, 16:52
pictures

miclo18d
02-13-2015, 18:56
My criticism....just post the video, your stop action photos made me have epileptic seizures!

And you need to learn about stress reactions that your body will naturally do when in a gunfight. (Hint: you will not be standing straight up drawing your pistol.)

drivfast
02-13-2015, 19:24
My criticism....just post the video, your stop action photos made me have epileptic seizures!

And you need to learn about stress reactions that your body will naturally do when in a gunfight. (Hint: you will not be standing straight up drawing your pistol.)

miclo18d,

Thank you for taking the time to look at my ridiculous seizure inducing stop action photos, and for the feedback. Roger and Wilco. I just posted an unlisted video to ******* in HD quality and edited my original post to include the link, but I am also including it here: http://youtu.be/Nr9TH0lW7Z4 Thanks again!

frostfire
02-13-2015, 22:55
Good afternoon guys,

I have limited pistol experience, including the training the Army gave me, and what I have studied and practiced since. I have some video captures of a draw stroke from a Dale Fricke Archangel appendix rig with my HK P30 9mm. There are 23 image files so I will need to make several posts and I apologize for that. I am hoping that those better trained and more experienced than myself would be willing to give a critique of anything they see that I am doing wrong or could improve upon. I also have the video if anyone cares to see it. here is the link: http://youtu.be/Nr9TH0lW7Z4 This was over the Holidays in Montana. the weather was approx. 20-25 degrees F. I had practiced the draw stroke and trigger squeeze using the holster with snap caps for a few hours the night prior using a 1 inch black dot on a B-29 target. Any constructive criticism or critique would be greatly appeciated.

Thanks Gents!

Do a forum search and/or google query for the Sparrow boys clip, the Filipino hit men documentary. At mere 60/100th of a second, they are probably the fastest appendix draw, and without $$$ gear either. Having said that, SEA is a tropical climate so not much fabric to clear as well. Thus, YMMV, adjust accordingly.

+1 for miclo18d comment. FWIW, you changed your posture after the draw and prior to presentation. As mentioned many times here, speed is economy of motion.

drivfast
02-14-2015, 09:27
Do a forum search and/or google query for the Sparrow boys clip, the Filipino hit men documentary. At mere 60/100th of a second, they are probably the fastest appendix draw, and without $$$ gear either. Having said that, SEA is a tropical climate so not much fabric to clear as well. Thus, YMMV, adjust accordingly.

+1 for miclo18d comment. FWIW, you changed your posture after the draw and prior to presentation. As mentioned many times here, speed is economy of motion.

Frostfire,

Thanks for the feedback! I found this clip: https://www.*******.com/watch?v=cPMEVzv0AO4 I'm not sure if that is the same one that you were referring to, but that NPA hitman Teddy Medina is fast. I noticed that he carries the pistol in a unique way. instead of tucking his shirt, he pulls his trousers up over the grip of the gun. It looked like he would pull his trousers slightly down with his support hand while drawing to expose the grip. At times he even pushed the pistol up with his non-firing hand. I am wondering what is holding the pistol in place as he pulls his trousers up over the entire gun? with no retention device it seems the gun would fall out through his trouser leg. The idea of carrying with an exposed trigger guard just doesn't sit well with me. I am extra cautious on re-holster. I observe that no loose clothing is present to get caught in the trigger guard. The p30 has a DA trigger pull of 11.5 lbs, and a wide triggger guard, but i'm still not taking any chances. I chose the appendix carry for the P30 because of my lean frame. I find it comfortable and concealable. Also, the guy who makes them is a fellow Montanan, and he gave me the rig as a Christmas gift with a note thanking me for my service. He is a stand up guy, real salt of the earth.

I noticed that my posture changed as well when I first watched the video of myself. Thanks for highlighting it. I will work on correcting that. I do have some questions regarding miclo18D's comments about stress reactions, and how they apply to drawing from concealment in the civilian world. So these questions are for him as well, along with anyone else who cares to chime in. First, here is a brief background of my limited experience so you can see where I'm coming from.

I was taught the forward aggressive fighting stance in the Army (weight over balls of feet, non firing foot 1/2 step forward) and that is what my body naturally wants to do. (Muscle memory and all) From the standing pos, I have always shot that way, primarily with the M4 but also with m9, the SAW and 240. I didn't get much training time on the m9. Taking contact on several occasions in Iraq, I learned that you shoot if you have visual and move immediately to cover, or get low and start communicating. Unless you are in a Vehicle, then it's just suppress and hope to smoke the bastards in the process. In '03 we were primarily in softskins with their flimsy doors which offered no protection. I spent a lot of time riding in the back with piled up sandbags for cover or on the .50 with a ratchet strap acoss my back for a stabilizer. When we were patrolling, most of the time, we didn't immediately see where the rounds were coming from beyond "that way over there" so there was no reactive shooting, just ducking for cover and scanning. Anyways, I felt giving a summary of my background would be useful.

To get back to the point, My goal is to learn pistol shooting as it applies in real life. I don't have any interest in playing shooting games with tricked out raceguns. That said I am a beginner at best. These are my questions:

I know that the body naturally reacts to stress by moving to cover or just getting down. Is there any use in training to draw from the standing position and engaging a target like I was doing in my video?

I chose to focus only on the draw and presentation out of primarily safety reasons. I figured I would add to that once I was proficient enough. I didn't want to be side stepping or running and drawing and then shoot myself in the femoral. Should I continue to work on the draw independently, or should I add movement now and just slow things down?

Besides moving to cover or getting down or running, what other body alarm responses should I be aware of that relate to body position?

I feel that if I observed a thug with a gun within my effective range with civilans and friendlies around, my stress reaction would be to attack. I would do my best to get an angle on him that would be advantageous and give me a clean shot with a clear backspace. I would go immediately on offense. I would want my front sight rising and falling on his center mass until he ceased to be a threat. Is this correct when a threat is in close proximity (5-7 meters)? What else do I need to consider?

miclo18d, and frostfire, thank you so much for your feedback and suggestions thus far. They will go to good use. I appreciate you both and anyone who takes the time to read this post or watch my horrible video and give suggestions or criticisms.

Razor
02-14-2015, 20:21
At mere 60/100th of a second...

60/100 = 3/5; -5 for failing to simplify.

Lighthouse
02-15-2015, 13:29
60/100 = 3/5; -5 for failing to simplify.

Currently studying engineering science myself. Before looking at your profile I knew you had to an engineer.:lifter:lifter:lifter

Joker
02-15-2015, 16:59
Practice drawing it about a 100 times, slowly, working on your economy of motion. Don't make ANY excessive moves.

Then practice drawing it about 150 more times a little faster, concentrating on your economy of motion.

Rinse and repeat for about a 1,000 times.

Then you finally get to go to the range and do step 1-10ish dry firing at first then load some bullets in your magazines.

Remember, "slow is smooth and smooth is fast."

therunningwolf
02-15-2015, 19:15
OP,

I've appendix carried everyday for getting close too three years now. Just some things I've learned I thought I would share.

You may want to consider the Raven Concealment VG2. It is by far the most comfortable and low profile option for AIWB I have found. Because it is basically a fancy trigger guard, once you draw you have practically no restriction of movement in your hips, a slight prick depending on where it ended up after you draw, but no restriction. There is no way to holster with this system (I make a rule not to holster with AIWB anyways, to many important things in that region, so doesn't really bother me) but you have plenty of time for that after the threat is eliminated.

Would definitely pick up a SureFire with either Thyrm Switchback or one of Raven's light rings, as a handheld light is gonna be your only option with AIWB. Yes they make AIWB rigs that are light compatible, go put one on and try running/ vaulting/ sitting in a car for a little while and you will see why I don't consider those an option. If you absolutely think you may need the ability to holster, I keep a RTI belt slide on my belt at all times, this gives me the ability to grab a RTI compatible holster I keep in a small pack on my back at all times and clip it on, if you are in a situation where you don't have time to do this, you probably don't want to be putting your blaster up anyways.

I practiced my draw religiously with my sidearm unloaded for a while before I felt comfortable going to the range with it, then practiced even more before I was ready to carry. I can't stress this enough, practice your draw. Once I had my draw motion programmed, I started programming myself to move as I drew, that way I'm not still standing in the spot I was getting shot at from. Doesn't matter how fast your draw is, it's not faster then the bullets heading for you, but just maybe the guy is retarded and can't aim worth a flip so get out of the way.

Sitting: Appendix carry offers a fast draw from standing, but where I've found that it really shines for me, is in a sitting position, but only if you are well practiced in the motion. I make a point when ever I get in a vehicle to tuck my shirt behind my pistol so I can get to it and to position my seat belt strap on or slightly below my belt giving me easy access to my firearm without needing both hands to remove my cover garment. At the very least, make sure your shirt isn't covered by your seat belt, it seems common sense but I've seen a handful of guys new to AIWB that forget this small detail. With cold weather, I make a point to also tuck my shirt behind my pistol and leave my jacket to be used as a cover garment, this leaves me with one less layer to get out of the way. Another thing with drawing from seated, a lot of car jackings happen right as you are approaching, getting into, or just sitting down in your vehicle, practice your draw from a seated position.

A exercise I like is to pick a random position you find yourself in a lot like drinking coffee in the morning (a seated position) and set up a chair and table like that, either on the range or for dry fire practice, at home. I'll then practice getting up and away from that table while also drawing simultaneously. One thing I have found from doing this, I do no sit at the bar anywhere I go now. I'm a short guy, I pretty much have to do a PLF to get off the dang stool then find cover.

To reiterate what those more knowledgeable and experienced then myself have already said, practice, practice, practice, and don't be afraid to slow it down. It's not all about speed, if you're moving so fast you are catching your cover garment, or not getting a good grip, then you need to take a breath and slow it down.

Hope some of this helps, and to the QPs, hope I didn't step out of my lane any.

drivfast
02-16-2015, 13:05
Practice drawing it about a 100 times, slowly, working on your economy of motion. Don't make ANY excessive moves.

Then practice drawing it about 150 more times a little faster, concentrating on your economy of motion.

Rinse and repeat for about a 1,000 times.

Then you finally get to go to the range and do step 1-10ish dry firing at first then load some bullets in your magazines.

Remember, "slow is smooth and smooth is fast."

Thank you for that solid advice, Joker. I"m going to put this to practice today. I'll make sure to slow things down and be mindful of my EOM. I appreciate you giving me a simple step by step drill to run. I have had the priviledge to chat briefly with the Team Sergeant about pistol work, and what he has said is quite congruent with your advice. Thanks again.

drivfast
02-16-2015, 13:25
therunningwolf,

Thank you for sharing your experiences with AIWB.

aiki ins
02-16-2015, 17:46
This was on a Miami Vice episode a number of years ago. I'm fairly certain it is an appendix carry cross drawn. His Name is Jim Zubiena. He was accomplished IPSC shooter a number of years ago. Just to make things clear IPSC is shooting paper and steel. No one shoots back!! But I think it demonstrates what is possible after years of dry and live fire training. I shoot IDPA and IPSC and have only been at it a few years. http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3026

frostfire
02-21-2015, 14:56
60/100 = 3/5; -5 for failing to simplify.

you just gave me PTSD and sent me back to engineering days :p...
The moment one realizes engineering program is no joke as the faculty told the freshmen: "Look to you right, look to your left, in 2-3 years there will be one of you left." In my senior class, I found out he was right.

Practice drawing it about a 100 times, slowly, working on your economy of motion. Don't make ANY excessive moves.


drivfast, I've discovered PLENTY people make excessive moves, to include myself when using new weapon or technique, or when under stress. Watch for the fish lure throw or the bowler moves as the gun goes to full presentation. Also, this works for me so it's only IMHOO. Do a sanity check for "natural point of aim." There isn't really such thing with pistol due to lack of bone support but your stance and grip would replace the bone support and cheek weld with rifle. With those 1000+ reps, every so often at varying speed and scenario, draw with your eyes closed to full extension/presentation, then open them to see if the sights are aligned. This is my trick to win competitions where accuracy counts so much more than speed. That also enables me to outshoot private contractors, Marine vet, and a SWAT instructor at a recent LEO shotgun/pistol instructor course with a G26 from 3 to 25 yards.

drivfast
02-23-2015, 02:40
drivfast, I've discovered PLENTY people make excessive moves, to include myself when using new weapon or technique, or when under stress. Watch for the fish lure throw or the bowler moves as the gun goes to full presentation. Also, this works for me so it's only IMHOO. Do a sanity check for "natural point of aim." There isn't really such thing with pistol due to lack of bone support but your stance and grip would replace the bone support and cheek weld with rifle. With those 1000+ reps, every so often at varying speed and scenario, draw with your eyes closed to full extension/presentation, then open them to see if the sights are aligned. This is my trick to win competitions where accuracy counts so much more than speed. That also enables me to outshoot private contractors, Marine vet, and a SWAT instructor at a recent LEO shotgun/pistol instructor course with a G26 from 3 to 25 yards.

Frostfire,

Congratulations on kicking ass at the instructor course. I really like the way you gave examples of excess body movements. I'll be watching for the bowler and the fishing lure cast during full presentation. ;) Also, the natural point of aim check seems like a solid practice. I can see how that could help a guy develop a consistent grip and presentation that produces repeatable results. I'll make sure to include that next time I'm dry firing. Thanks for taking the time to cross-load the tips and advice bro!

Razor
02-23-2015, 14:23
you just gave me PTSD and sent me back to engineering days.

Dark days, indeed, if it included the FE exam. :cool:

Team Sergeant
02-23-2015, 14:33
Do a forum search and/or google query for the Sparrow boys clip, the Filipino hit men documentary. At mere 60/100th of a second, they are probably the fastest appendix draw, and without $$$ gear either. Having said that, SEA is a tropical climate so not much fabric to clear as well. Thus, YMMV, adjust accordingly.

+1 for miclo18d comment. FWIW, you changed your posture after the draw and prior to presentation. As mentioned many times here, speed is economy of motion.

I saw the "Sparrow boys hitman clip" when it was classified "secret".......really.

Drawing from that position is likely to get your pecker shot off.

There's a reason we have/use "holsters".

frostfire
02-23-2015, 15:30
Dark days, indeed, if it included the FE exam. :cool:

stop! STOP! PE and FE exams...the horror :eek:
Always thought I was smart until engineering classes, never saw scores like 42 and 45 out of 100....but the class average was 35 so I still ended up with a B thanks to the curve :D

miclo18d
02-24-2015, 05:58
I saw the "Sparrow boys hitman clip" when it was classified "secret".......really.

Drawing from that position is likely to get your pecker shot off.

There's a reason we have/use "holsters".
I agree with this.

Yesterday, while out shopping, I actually moved my holster over from hip to my "appendix" and since I ganed a few pounds in the midriff, the handle poked out like an Alien baby bursting out of my belly. My problem with this technique, as a defensive technique, is that during SSR you will probably bend over forward in a defensive crouch as a reaction to seeing a gun and have difficulty getting a weapon out of the area to the front.

I also noticed on the sparrow video that they are using their NFH to push the gun up out of their trousers. These assassins were on the offense and had the element of surprise and therefor didn't have a SSR, therefor they could stand straight up and access the front waistband. Cheating so to speak.

My opinion is ditch the unknown factor and save your pecker! If not, wear a ceramic cup and practice, practice, practice.