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Jakedeep
01-11-2015, 20:55
What is the youngest you've ever seen someone -
A. Get Selected in SFAS
-----and-----
B. Serve on an ODA (make it through SFQC)

Jake

The Reaper
01-11-2015, 23:04
Why?

TR

Jakedeep
01-11-2015, 23:25
Curiosity.

I watched the BUD/S doc on class 234 and there was a 17 year-old who made it through the SEAL pipeline. I read on here that they bumped the requirement for an 18X contract to 20 years of age because none of the 18/19 year-olds were making it to selection.

Suggests that maturity is much more of a deciding factor when considering selection for SF.

Jake

miclo18d
01-12-2015, 05:48
Maturity? 20 instead of 19=more mature, eh? What are you implying, that it "suggests maturity"? I would say that an 18y/o 18x that went 18D would be 20 by graduation. Mature, I guess.

Maturity is not an age, it is a state of mind. Heck, there are 40 year old children and mature 10 year olds.


One of my indicators of the LACK of maturity, is speaking when you should be listening. Think about it.

Team Sergeant
01-12-2015, 09:15
What is the youngest you've ever seen someone -
A. Get Selected in SFAS
-----and-----
B. Serve on an ODA (make it through SFQC)

Jake

Something to remember, you must be an E-5 to serve on an (active duty) ODA or an O-3. An E-6 on an A-Team is a Jr. 18.

SEALS have E-1's and O-1's.

Combat Diver
01-12-2015, 09:37
I enlisted on a SF contract out of High School right after I turned 18 in 83'. Fall of 84' I was a SP4 on a ODA at 19 (went in as a PFC). So SF has had young kids in its ranks in the past. Few others with me graduated the Q course as PFC's.

CD

Team Sergeant
01-12-2015, 09:42
I enlisted on a SF contract out of High School right after I turned 18 in 83'. Fall of 84' I was a SP4 on a ODA at 19 (went in as a PFC). So SF has had young kids in its ranks in the past. Few others with me graduated the Q course as PFC's.

CD

You had to have made E-5 very soon after. I was also E-4 in training and received E-5 about the same time I graduated. (May-83)
I don't think I've ever seen an E-4 on an A-team..... Don't think I'd want to be that guy.....;)

SPEC4
01-12-2015, 10:52
My Q school class, 1969, was mostly E-3's and E-4 and we went to group with that rank.
AFTER our class, all subsequent graduates were given E-5 at graduation.
All E-5 allocations went to training group grads, so the men I graduated with were outranked by their juniors for a year or more.
I know this is ancient history, I served on an ODA as a Spec4, 19 years old and spent too many days on KP, Guard duty and aggressor detail, junior rank you know.
It's all good now, 45 years later.
:lifter

Pete
01-12-2015, 12:17
........................when 30% of the Company lived in the Barracks. 5th & 7th Group in the mid to late 70's.

Last hard class
01-12-2015, 12:17
I don't think I've ever seen an E-4 on an A-team..... Don't think I'd want to be that guy.....;)

When I arrived, I was given the E-5 insignia to wear until I was eligible for promotion. Did make E-5 lightning fast.



LHC

MR2
01-12-2015, 12:58
One of my indicators of the LACK of maturity, is speaking when you should be listening. Think about it.

Cogent teaching moment right there. :lifter

Belongs in the What Advice Would an SF Soldier Give? (https://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47407) Thread which the OP should peruse.

:cool:

VVVV
01-12-2015, 15:27
You had to have made E-5 very soon after. I was also E-4 in training and received E-5 about the same time I graduated. (May-83)
I don't think I've ever seen an E-4 on an A-team..... Don't think I'd want to be that guy.....;)

There were many on A-teams in the 60s. SP4 John Walton* (SF Medic) was awarded the Silver Star while serving in MACVSOG, not on an A, buttttttttttt!

*Sam's son.

Team Sergeant
01-12-2015, 15:40
There were many on A-teams in the 60s. SP4 John Walton* (SF Medic) was awarded the Silver Star while serving in MACVSOG, not on an A, buttttttttttt!

*Sam's son.

I was still in diapers in the 60's.....:munchin

PRB
01-12-2015, 15:48
I was still in diapers in the 60's.....:munchin

Lot's of people are in diapers in their 60's.....

mark46th
01-12-2015, 16:43
I signed up for SF as an E-1 in BCT at 20 years old. The deal was, Richard correct me if I am wrong, was that as we successfully graduated certain points, we would get promoted. I made E-2 in BCT, E-3 completing jump school, E-4(Sp4) getting through Phase I and SGT E-5 graduating from Phase III. I was drafted in July of 1970 and made E-5 in May of 1971. The SGM that gave me my promotion orders was pissed. He said it took him 6 years to make E-5. I was fortunate in that I hit every school date and already knew morse code when I got to Commo School, shortening Phase II, considerably.

Bechorg
01-19-2015, 23:35
Enlisted at 17, Selection at 18 (I was the only one under 20 in my class to get selected), Group at 19, Afghanistan at 20,21,22,23. E-7 at 27 even with a break in service. Like it has been said, maturity is a state of mind. I learned real quick to shut up because I had zero life experience. To this day I am a sponge for anyone who has any information to offer young or old. I credit that to any success I have had in the Regiment. You start out Phase II with a knowledge gap that you need to fill quickly to become an asset to the team. As long as you stay hungry you will quickly catch up.

I am never the smartest, fittest, or most experienced person in the room, but I am usually the hungriest to learn. Learning never stops, and as soon as you get complacent and have a BTDT attitude, assume you are proficient at things you have never done, someone will pass you up or you will make huge mistakes. I saw 30+ year old men get booted out of the course for immature attitude, BTDT attitude, or just flat out bad judgment.

Always remember that people are going to give you the benefit of the doubt until you show them that you cannot handle responsibility. The lack of experience is your issue to overcome, not theirs.

Mike
01-25-2015, 03:33
I was a 21 year old sp4 when I reported to A 341 in 1968.

Stuck as a PFC through SFTG as rank was frozen.
Went to 6th Grp where I made E4.

Made 5 and 6 while at 341.
7th was going to send me to NCO school with 2 months left til ETS in 1970.
I just wanted to go home, they offered Ranger School, but I had lost interest.
Smoke Bomb hill, 1970, was a frightful place.
Guys who stuck it out then saw hard times for SF

NC6J
01-25-2015, 09:37
Maturity? 20 instead of 19=more mature, eh? What are you implying, that it "suggests maturity"? I would say that an 18y/o 18x that went 18D would be 20 by graduation. Mature, I guess.

Maturity is not an age, it is a state of mind. Heck, there are 40 year old children and mature 10 year olds.
When they brought back the 18X option, there was a high percentage of 17-18 yr olds not making it through.

Tommy Lee Jones put it best in Men In Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

An 18 yr old may be mature beyond his years, an "old soul" if you will.

But more often than not, an 18 yr old is not mature.

Hell, how many 18 yr olds today are mature enough for even the easiest job in the Army?

You have to remember, SWCS must deal with the aggregate and adjust the numbers accordingly.

They look at roughly 3,000-3,500 a year in SFAS, and they have to graduate 600 a year from SFQC just to replace the ETS and retirements.

The overall low level of success of 18 yr olds dictated that they needed to adust the age minimum to meet the mission.

There are success stories, a firend of mine from A/1-5 took over a team in C/1-5 that had 7 new 18X's on it. All 7 turned out to be sponges, hungry to learn, eager to listen, desparate to do the right thing.

He hit the lottery.

We got the 18X everyone fears.
We went to OIF V with an 18X college grad, who was fired from every duty position for being the kind of d-bag who graduated SFSC five minutes ago and couldn't stop himself from telling the SO Troop snipers how to do the job they have been doing for a decade.

Scimitar
01-25-2015, 13:09
So, in line with the OP, what is maturity and how does one develop it? I'd be interested in QP thoughts.

My immediate thoughts are...

It is a someone who is
- Aware of how their actions effect those around them...consequences
- Is able to put others immediate and macro needs before their own...delayed gratification / impulse control and awareness of others goals

On how to develop maturity...

I think like a lot of things, it takes practice. As an example, after reading on PS.com regarding situational awareness and developing "swivel head" and "intuitive scan" abilities (what's the guy in the ball cap's agenda, where's the exits from this building etc), I started practicing this skill, and now I don't even realize I'm doing it.

So, how may this look? My Mother trained teachers. She would say, the single thing that makes one a professional is the ability to self critique, and self learn.

One option would be to produce a daily log
- Ask oneself, 'was I mature today'?
- Was I immediately aware of how my actions effected others?
- Was I immediately aware of their non verbal responses, and did I act accordingly?
- Did I delay my gratifications well?
- Was I able to ascertain a persons agenda / goals and make room for them (build trust)

And then one could pick a specific area to work on each day.

One last thing...
We develop an "aspect", a way we hold ourselves; how we "come across"; mannerisms we acquire.
This is often subconscious, or at least we are not fully aware of how our aspect is actually perceived by others.

For example, I have a staff member who's aspect is aloof and angry, I have heard this referred to as "resting bitch face". she has a bad case of it.
I almost didn't hire her, but I executed a reference check all the same, and when I queried her previous employer, he laughed and said, "No she's great, she just takes a little while to warm-up." Her next reference said the same. She's now a model employee of ours.

A person could ask those around him, who he trusts to provide mature feedback, how he comes across. What his "aspect" tends to be.

In SFAS peer reviews are conducted, first impressions last.

HTH

S

FearMonkey
01-26-2015, 12:00
Enlisted at 17, Selection at 18 (I was the only one under 20 in my class to get selected), Group at 19, Afghanistan at 20,21,22,23. E-7 at 27 even with a break in service. Like it has been said, maturity is a state of mind. I learned real quick to shut up because I had zero life experience. To this day I am a sponge for anyone who has any information to offer young or old. I credit that to any success I have had in the Regiment. You start out Phase II with a knowledge gap that you need to fill quickly to become an asset to the team. As long as you stay hungry you will quickly catch up.

I am never the smartest, fittest, or most experienced person in the room, but I am usually the hungriest to learn. Learning never stops, and as soon as you get complacent and have a BTDT attitude, assume you are proficient at things you have never done, someone will pass you up or you will make huge mistakes. I saw 30+ year old men get booted out of the course for immature attitude, BTDT attitude, or just flat out bad judgment.

Always remember that people are going to give you the benefit of the doubt until you show them that you cannot handle responsibility. The lack of experience is your issue to overcome, not theirs.

Bechorg not only hit the nail on the head but drove it halfway to China!!! I had almost the exact same experience. I joined the Army as an 18X at the age of 17 (I literally had to get my parents permission to legally enlist :rolleyes:). Throughout the entire Q-Course it was abundantly clear that I had to prove myself at every moment in order to hang on for dear life. I lacked experience, wisdom, and maturity compared to my peers. I kept my mouth shut, vowed to never quit, and promised I would seize every opportunity to attempt to show my worth in the hopes that it would be good enough. I felt like Rudy Ruettiger everyday of my life, for two years. It paid off, however, and I graduated as an 18E at the age of 19.

When I arrived at group, the cycle began anew. I started out working in the SIGDET and eventually was moved to a B-Team. I worked at the B-Team until I was able to prove my worth to the rest of the company and convince a team sergeant to give a now 20 year old kid a shot. Once I walked through the doors of that ODA it turns out I wouldn't walk back out for the next seven years. I served multiple tours to Iraq, Philippines, Afghanistan, and other places. I earned the rank of E-7 at 25 years old and I became an experienced 18F. I literally grew up and changed from a child to man within the Regiment and it was an incredibly intense, challenging, and unspeakably rewarding experience. I don't need to give you any advice because Bechorg already said everything you need to know. I simply wanted to share my story and hope that it helps others on a similar path in life. There's a reason my picture is of a baby doing pushups and the my signature says, "A man's reach should exceed his grasp." When I joined the military I felt like a child who was attempting the impossible against all odds. I never want to forget that feeling because it motivated me to attempt to elevate myself and brought out the best in me.

MoldyCrow
01-30-2015, 16:13
Scimitar,
Just wanted to say that I appreciated your response and saved it to my Notes folder to review again in the future.

joesnuffy
07-11-2015, 10:16
I know that there are guys in Group that are younger than me but specifically on my team my self and my senior are the youngest section on the team (18C).