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frostfire
11-02-2014, 20:39
Poor Man's PDW!
An inch longer than MP5, shoot the groups below with iron sights and three different ammo brand (50 yards from car hood, long story!), all rounds touching at 25 yards standing with red dot at 2 sec/shot, sub moh (minute-of-heart :D) at 100 yards, and sub mol (minute-of-lungs :D ) at 200 yards. Cost 1/2 to 1/3 of PDW's and SBR's out there. Care to guess :munchin

Toaster
01-11-2015, 13:37
Zastava M92?

My guess is something on the AK Platform.

Box
01-11-2015, 19:33
A poor mans MP5 ???

...is it a high point carbine ??

THAT is a poor mans MP5 !!!


...or a KelTech

Bladeenthusiast
01-11-2015, 20:06
i will second toasters reply and say zastava

Peregrino
01-11-2015, 20:44
Probably not an M92. I've got one; it's a cool toy but even with an "arm brace" used as a butt stock, it isn't that accurate. MOO, YMMV.

frostfire
01-11-2015, 21:36
i will second toasters reply and say zastava

you guys are too smart for your own good...


The white background is using red dot and the bottom of bullseye using the iron sight at 100 yards. Also length comparison with the venerable OBR. Note the Bushnell TRS 25 on both platforms. I'm going to group it at 200 yards next since I had enough of the online gurus saying it's useless beyond 100.
It shoots stupid accurate too with this round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrS-kya8xVA Outperforms the Hornady ballistic tip/AMAX at less than 50% cost! If I were to explain why the accuracy, it's probably along the line of what Todd H. said about short, thick, and stiff better than long, thinner, and freefloating....
The manticore muzzle break is almost a must. This video describes the performance best when the guy shoots full auto with one hand with no cheekweld and the muzzle barely rises https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q9eUnBbpoU

The PMPDW is an absolute hoot to shoot. Near zero recoil and you'd blaze through CSAT (or any) standards. Take the brace off, just push/pull with sling and it performs just as well and extremely mobile in vehicle. The international SOF students loved it! Thanks to ATF and CAI, only in the US this thing is called a pistol :D Did drill with a buddy and his MP5. While I give him the edge in speed+accuracy (less then 1 sec difference), he was lobbing 5 rds 9mm to COM versus 5 .30 cal rounds (at over 2050fps)!

Probably not an M92. I've got one; it's a cool toy but even with an "arm brace" used as a butt stock, it isn't that accurate. MOO, YMMV.

Peregrino,

how much for the used "toy" ? I have 2 buyers line up already who can't find it anywhere anymore. How's $500?

Alright, I understand M92 QC may not be the best, but what rounds are you shooting? If it's FMJ or SP, then it's no bueno. HP all the way. The most accurate is the Brown-Silver-Golden bear 123gr HP variant, as well as (if you can find it) the Sapsan M83 124gr HP devastating hunting rounds. Also, IMHO a bit trigger work is necessary to squeeze that mechanical accuracy from the short barrel-ammo combo.

As you can see, mine underwent quite some mods. Trigger polishing, shaved and drilled the wood to fit piccatiny rail, Ultimak rail to cowitness irons with red dot, even some home-made heat sink between the barrel and guard....
The best part is now that I'm familiar with the process, I can just bring the parts downrange and convert any battlefield recovery into a redneck-engineered :lifter Avtomat Kalashnikova

Box
01-11-2015, 21:42
those are nice looking...
...they dont look "poor" at all

JJ_BPK
01-12-2015, 04:36
those are nice looking...
...they dont look "poor" at all

Agreed, A lot of aftermarket addies... BUT very tacticool and looking practical.. :D

How is the forearm setup working?
A lot of exposed hot bits out by the gas port..
It looks like you need a good set of oven mitts??
Has the red-dot suffered from the heat??
:munchin

I can't stand on my head,, so I flipped the pic..

frostfire
01-12-2015, 12:46
Agreed, A lot of aftermarket addies... BUT very tacticool and looking practical.. :D

How is the forearm setup working?
A lot of exposed hot bits out by the gas port..
It looks like you need a good set of oven mitts??
Has the red-dot suffered from the heat??
:munchin

I can't stand on my head,, so I flipped the pic..

The forearm works great. I originally intended the angled grip to deal with the heat where I can hook 2 fingers in the triangle space and push the index towards the front notch, and never touch the lower forend. Instead, I can do a full C-clamp like with the AR platform. Granted I don't do 1000rds mag dump like some folks on youtube. Turned out heat is not much of a problem in comparison to other AK's I've shot with wood, plastic, or metal forend, at least with 3 mags back-to-back-to-back. No mitts so far. I wonder if this is because:
- The short barrel throws some of unburned powder out before it gets to burn and pass the heat,.
- The ultimak is not a full enclosure like original gas tube, thus allowing hot gas to escape (heat transfer via convection occurs more than conduction t)
- The homemade heat shield works as intended....

No effect so far on the red dot. I went with this option after asking those who did hundreds of mag dump if their TRS experienced any effect.

Peregrino
01-12-2015, 19:59
frostfire - I've taken steps to mitigate the initial accuracy issues with mine. As a result, your buddies probably wouldn't be that interested in it. And yes, I'm using the cheap Wolf 124 gr. After all, it's a "truck gun" and for that I'm not looking for SPR accuracy.

Side note - I don't know where your friends are looking but I've seen a number of M92s in the $500 range. Check out CDNN, Atlantic, J&J and others or take them to the Raleigh Gun Show this weekend. It will cost a little extra to get the arm brace version but in my experience they are readily available.

frostfire
01-13-2015, 01:38
frostfire - I've taken steps to mitigate the initial accuracy issues with mine. As a result, your buddies probably wouldn't be that interested in it. And yes, I'm using the cheap Wolf 124 gr. After all, it's a "truck gun" and for that I'm not looking for SPR accuracy.

Side note - I don't know where your friends are looking but I've seen a number of M92s in the $500 range. Check out CDNN, Atlantic, J&J and others or take them to the Raleigh Gun Show this weekend. It will cost a little extra to get the arm brace version but in my experience they are readily available.

hmmm, I wonder if you turned yours to an actual SBR. $$$ but worth it I guess
The online websites are all out to include J&g, centerfire, buds, you name it. Thanks for the gun show tip, I'll send them that way.

I'm hijacking my own threat, but would a "truck gun" be just about the same as "zombie gun"? Unless one is defending against assasination attempt by a the cartel, I don't see how justifying use of platform like M92 from/in a car would fly in the court, even in that case of 20+ punks on motorcycles versus a man and his family in his car. "Your honor, I was in fear of my life and my family, so after the first rider broke my glass I ventilated him and his 19 buddies in the face with 7.62...." Hence, it's hardly anything more than as you said, a toy

MR2
01-13-2015, 06:18
I don't see how justifying use of platform like M92 from/in a car would fly in the court, even in that case of 20+ punks on motorcycles versus a man and his family in his car.

It just might make the difference and give you the opportunity to explain your side in court verses the alternative...

Bladeenthusiast
01-14-2015, 09:34
That is pretty badass man. that's a lot of money in one gun and I'll tell you by that shot group and the fact it's not a class III it's worth it, it's pretty sweet.

Team Sergeant
01-14-2015, 10:44
That is pretty badass man. that's a lot of money in one gun and I'll tell you by that shot group and the fact it's not a class III it's worth it, it's pretty sweet. Tacticool as fuck:D:cool:

Really? Seriously? Do you think you're on AR-15.com?

Do we have to ban you?

Brush Okie
01-14-2015, 10:55
In the state of WA you can NOT have a loaded rifle in your vehicle. You can however have a loaded pistol with a CCW. I have been thinking about getting a pistol such as this with the Sig arm brace for a truck gun. good post.

Team Sergeant
01-14-2015, 10:59
In the state of WA you can NOT have a loaded rifle in your vehicle. You can however have a loaded pistol with a CCW. I have been thinking about getting a pistol such as this with the Sig arm brace for a truck gun. good post.

Whew, that's right.

(Stole this image from AR15.com)

Bladeenthusiast
01-14-2015, 11:35
Really? Seriously? Do you think you're on AR-15.com?

Do we have to ban you?

My apologies team sergeant, won't happen again

Brush Okie
01-14-2015, 21:25
Whew, that's right.

(Stole this image from AR15.com)

I would like to add the only accessories I would have besides the arm brace MIGHT be a red dot. I prefer my firearms basic and simple. All the crap that people hang on their firearms bugs me. Even a scope I prefer basic duplex over anything else. I know how to use a duplex as a range finder if I feel a need for that in a scope.

frostfire
01-14-2015, 23:59
I would like to add the only accessories I would have besides the arm brace MIGHT be a red dot. I prefer my firearms basic and simple. All the crap that people hang on their firearms bugs me. Even a scope I prefer basic duplex over anything else. I know how to use a duplex as a range finder if I feel a need for that in a scope.

Lest you want to spend $$$ on brand name, palmetto has a sale going on...
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/19000/s/psa-8-5-5-56-nato-1-7-stainless-sqr-7-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle/
Also IIRC both palmetto and primaryarms.com (solid, Larue-like customer support) have sale for red dot sights
https://www.primaryarms.com/Red_Dot_Sights_s/190.htm

A buddy is building one with Adam Arms piston kit. I'm personally not a fan having 5.56 going through only a few inches of barrel, hence the choice for shorter cartridge with 7.62x39. I also doubt a 5.56 platform would deliver far superior accuracy than my current setup. A 300 Blackout on the other hand....but that's another discussion

Brush Okie
01-15-2015, 08:49
Lest you want to spend $$$ on brand name, palmetto has a sale going on...
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/19000/s/psa-8-5-5-56-nato-1-7-stainless-sqr-7-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle/
Also IIRC both palmetto and primaryarms.com (solid, Larue-like customer support) have sale for red dot sights
https://www.primaryarms.com/Red_Dot_Sights_s/190.htm

A buddy is building one with Adam Arms piston kit. I'm personally not a fan having 5.56 going through only a few inches of barrel, hence the choice for shorter cartridge with 7.62x39. I also doubt a 5.56 platform would deliver far superior accuracy than my current setup. A 300 Blackout on the other hand....but that's another discussion

Actually I like your AK platform and that is the one I was considering after your post. If I was going to make a "pistol" out of an AR platform I would get an 14" upper ie M-4 ish platform with the arm brace made by sig. 100% legal to carry loaded in WA as long as I have my CCW. No loaded rifles in WA state allowed.

frostfire
08-02-2015, 23:44
I'm going to group it at 200 yards next

well, didn't have a range finder, but it was between 250 to 300 yards using guestimation of the 100 yards range.
At that distance the silhouette looks like 1/2 the front sight width and the red dot won't give the consistent contrast required for grouping.

1st pic , 4 out of 4 shots on paper, 3 on target, Brown bear HP. Held at head
2nd pic, 3 out of 5 shots on target, 8M3 HP hunting round. Held at COM
3rd pic, 3 out of 5 shots on paper, 2 on target. Silver bear HP. Held at COM
I should have held all at head. The zero is 50/100.

I guess I've found the limit of the user-tool combo. That's beyond minute-of-torso or even minute-of-man group. No bueno.
All in all, not bad for for pushing a 10.5" barrel "pistol" beyond its normal/intended use :D I bet J. Miculek can do better.

Not only that 8M3 round is super devastating (better than Hornady's), it's probably the most accurate (out of M92)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrS-kya8xVA
Effect on live tissue/hogs: http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1890654/1