View Full Version : The Coming Race War
This is how your start a war.. :mad:
The Coming Race War Won’t Be About Race
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar @kaj33, Aug. 17, 2014
Ferguson is not just about systemic racism — it's about class warfare and how America's poor are held back, says Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Will the recent rioting in Ferguson, Missouri, be a tipping point in the struggle against racial injustice, or will it be a minor footnote in some future grad student’s thesis on Civil Unrest in the Early Twenty-First Century?
The answer can be found in May of 1970.
You probably have heard of the Kent State shootings: on May 4, 1970, the Ohio National Guard opened fire on student protesters at Kent State University. During those 13 seconds of gunfire, four students were killed and nine were wounded, one of whom was permanently paralyzed. The shock and outcry resulted in a nationwide strike of 4 million students that closed more than 450 campuses. Five days after the shooting, 100,000 protestors gathered in Washington, D.C. And the nation’s youth was energetically mobilized to end the Vietnam War, racism, sexism, and mindless faith in the political establishment.
You probably haven’t heard of the Jackson State shootings.
On May 14th, 10 days after Kent State ignited the nation, at the predominantly black Jackson State University in Mississippi, police killed two black students (one a high school senior, the other the father of an 18-month-old baby) with shotguns and wounded twelve others.
There was no national outcry. The nation was not mobilized to do anything. That heartless leviathan we call History swallowed that event whole, erasing it from the national memory.
And, unless we want the Ferguson atrocity to also be swallowed and become nothing more than an intestinal irritant to history, we have to address the situation not just as another act of systemic racism, but as what else it is: class warfare.
By focusing on just the racial aspect, the discussion becomes about whether Michael Brown’s death—or that of the other three unarmed black men who were killed by police in the U.S. within that month—is about discrimination or about police justification. Then we’ll argue about whether there isn’t just as much black-against-white racism in the U.S. as there is white-against-black. (Yes, there is. But, in general, white-against-black economically impacts the future of the black community. Black-against-white has almost no measurable social impact.)
Then we’ll start debating whether or not the police in America are themselves an endangered minority who are also discriminated against based on their color—blue. (Yes, they are. There are many factors to consider before condemning police, including political pressures, inadequate training, and arcane policies.) Then we’ll question whether blacks are more often shot because they more often commit crimes. (In fact, studies show that blacks are targeted more often in some cities, like New York City. It’s difficult to get a bigger national picture because studies are woefully inadequate. The Department of Justice study shows that in the U.S. between 2003 and 2009, among arrest-related deaths there’s very little difference among blacks, whites, or Latinos. However, the study doesn’t tell us how many were unarmed.)
This fist-shaking of everyone’s racial agenda distracts America from the larger issue that the targets of police overreaction are based less on skin color and more on an even worse Ebola-level affliction: being poor.
Of course, to many in America, being a person of color is synonymous with being poor, and being poor is synonymous with being a criminal. Ironically, this misperception(sic) is true even among the poor.
And that’s how the status quo wants it.
link to article (http://time.com/3132635/ferguson-coming-race-war-class-warfare/)
Dean Jarvis
08-18-2014, 05:20
This is how your start a war.. :mad:
Well they don't have to worry now. Eric Holder's got their back. He couldn't get involved in this quick enough. Any white on black murder or perceived murder by a white cop and the DOJ is all over it. What do we see with the IRS crimes against the American citizen and their cover up, murder of a border patrol agent by guns provide by the ATF, or Black Panthers blocking access to white voters and you get this reaction :munchin
Of course, to many in America, being a person of color is synonymous with being poor, and being poor is synonymous with being a criminal. Ironically, this misperception(sic) is true even among the poor.
And that’s how the status quo wants it.
I have never looked at it that way and I can't think of anyone I know that thinks that way. Hell, some of the most sincere and honest people I have met might be considered poor and many are of color.
We all just just trying to keep our heads above water and make the most of what we have.
Streck-Fu
08-18-2014, 07:20
Who, exactly, is the 'status quo'?
DIYPatriot
08-18-2014, 08:40
The skin color is irrelevant a scum bag is a scumbag, but this is turning into a racial issue when it is not one.
I totally agree. Trash comes in all colors. Did you listen to or watch Jonathan Gentry's online rant regarding this? I had never heard of him until all of this happened in Ferguson. He pretty much calls it like it is.
Link to video (http://video.foxnews.com/v/3731606825001/ministers-explosive-rant-on-violence-in-ferguson-goes-viral/#sp=show-clips)
NurseTim
08-18-2014, 09:06
Isn't kareem a member of the religion of peace? That pretty much says it all right there.
So Lew Alcindor is saying that the Jackson State shootings happened purely because the students of Jackson State where guilty of the crime we call, "walking while black"...
...well maybe so.
Lets dissect your opinion Lew...
...Kent State shootings were a result of a National Guard incident.
...Jackson State was a police incident
Kent State involved the Army shooting US citizens because they had spent several days throwing beer bottles at cars, busting up store fronts, bank windows, starting fires in the streets, and setting the campus ROTC building on fire.
Jackson State students started fires, threw rocks at white motorists and overturned vehicles.
-The police flipped the fuck out and when they couldn't disperse the rioting crowd, they shot into crowd killing two. COPS killed the rioting students at Jackson State.
Local police work getting out of control doesnt get national attention when the nation is still reeling over the fucking ARMY killing four students in a riot not even two weeks earlier, Lew...
It wasn't just cops, but the ARMY that killed college students in Ohio...
...you all know the lyrics:
Tin soldiers and Nixons coming,
Were finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
...Four dead in Ohio
Four dead in Ohio, Lew...
...killed by angry Soldiers during a time when Soldiers generally though college kids where all dope smoking, commie sympathizing hippies.
Rich elitists like yourself like to revise history Mr Alcindor, so lets revise it in context.
...the ARMY killed four dope smoking hippies. It caused a national stink that still smells bad 44 years later.
The Kent State shootings were tragic.
...but then again, was it cool to set the fucking ROTC building on fire?
...was there a reason to throw rocks and bottles at passing motorists because they were mad at the president?
...was there a reason to break bank windows and set fire to the neighborhood?
FUCK NO.
...and the fucking ARMY doesn't DO law enforcement. The ARMY uses violence to force compliance. THAT is what we do... Lew. We visit violence on those who piss off the US goivernment
Enemies, foriegn AND doemstic.
...thats right Lew, I'll shoot the fuck out of some hippie college students my damn self if the president tells me to.
Not because I am a racist, but because thats what your tax dollars pay me to do.
So when the ARMY fixes bayonets, walks onto a college campus, and starts shooting mother fuckers...
...America sits up and takes notice.
Oh, I should add that this all happened when we didn't have a 24 hour news cycle, we didn't have cell phones with high resolution digital video, or facebook and twitter pages to paste the video to. Hell, for that matter we didnt have internet bulletin boards to mock idealistic celebrites either.
...and we were still dealing with the war in vietnam.
In Jackson State, they started a riot, the cops said "knock it off"
The students said "fuck you law dog"
the cops said, knock it off hippies, we aint fucking around anymore
Jackson State said, "law dont go round' here law dog"
...the cops flipped the fuck out and started shooting
Tragically 2 students died - and the event was over before the ARMY showed up and started shooting people.
Interesting Lew, that you failed to mention that we ALSO forgot about a few other college riots in May of 1970:
UNiversity of Kansas
University of Maryland
Yale (yes... fucking Yale students rioted that May)
...in fact, angry college student rioted at over 450 US college campuses that month
Over 30 ROTC building were set on fire and the Nation Guard intervened on over 20 US college campuses across the Nation...
...let me say that once more for the race baiting, retired basketball players in the audience:
Over 30 ROTC buildings were set on fire and the ARMY showed up at over 20 college campuses to restore order.
...but we are all racists becasue we forgot that the Mississippi State police shot two Jackson State college students during a riot.
Fuck you Lew.
Fuck you very much, you race baiting sensationalist.
Otherwise, the idea that Kent State got national attention because the students were white, and Jackson State got suppressed because the students were black is nonsense Lew. Not everything is about race you goon...
...so cast your race baited hook in another pond because I for one, aint biting.
Just my opinion.
I could be wrong.
Oldrotorhead
08-18-2014, 12:09
While the counrty watches on town burn after one 18 year old was shot and killed the media and the DOJ are not addressing violence in many major cities where the police aren't killing young black men. In most cased young black men are killing other black men and often in cities with "strict" gun laws. This is the best example I can find.
http://heyjackass.com/
Chicago information that is updated about every day. I haven't seen any source contest this information.
Keep in mind this trouble in Fergusen is just round one. The next round starts after the trial. No matter what the outcome of the trial.
Living in a 48% black, 46% white neighborhood I don't expect any of my neighbors to boil out of their homes and protest in the streets.
A few might jump in their cars and drive somewhere to protest but that's it.
Did surprise me a bit one time when the FayOb did a story on a police raid in the Foxfire Subdivision. They hit a home they said was selling drugs and the paper said 120 people filled the street to protest and a few extra units had to be called.
How many unarmed black people were killed by other blacks the same month? how many unarmed white people were killed by blacks the same month?
The skin color is irrelevant a scum bag is a scumbag, but this is turning into a racial issue when it is not one. The POS was taped steeling cigars and bullying a store owner not long before the shhoting. MSM showed photos of him flashing gang signs. MSM is throwing flames on the fire just to sell news. Kareem, pull your head out of your ass and look at reality.
Yeap you're 1000% right. No doubt this isn't about racism. Yet I will say it is about class warfare.
it's about class warfare and how America's poor are held back, says Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Well guess what if a sect of Americans are told to live this way, because you get stauff for free, not having to work, not being at cause and whatever it is. well I call that a type of class warfare, but not my problem. Demorats, get to work helping these people or, helping your community out, helping your voters out. Get right in there and give them a helping hand. See how many show up and stay after dark.
I totally agree. Trash comes in all colors. Did you listen to or watch Jonathan Gentry's online rant regarding this? I had never heard of him until all of this happened in Ferguson. He pretty much calls it like it is.
Link to video (http://video.foxnews.com/v/3731606825001/ministers-explosive-rant-on-violence-in-ferguson-goes-viral/#sp=show-clips)
DIYPatriot - Saw this, and yes he did call them out. BUT I say the Governor of Missouri, Jay Nixon; local and state level BLACK civic leaders and local, state and National level religious leaders; should have come out in the days ago over the charater and actions of what these night "Peaceful protest" which are just a reason for lotting and rioting. Things will claim down once there isn't any more for them to steal.
I say let the have the city center, or the area they say they are conducting "Peaceful protest" in. Make a ring around them along the streets, alley ways, cut throughs, ETC; not leting anyone in. But we will let you go home (OUT) after which you get screened. Which the are breaking the law. Check their IDs and record them on a ditgital reader, biometic or police officers laptop card reader. I would use something like at a local concert or sporting event, handheld device to take the persons information. Anyone that doesn't have an ID, I would set up a photo area to take there pictures and use facial recognition software and then mail them a citation in mail and have it tied to their license, plate vehicle registration renewal and even their home residential property taxes. I would have those same religious leaders, civic leaders and even NAACP there helping control the people.
As far as police I would monitor Facebook, Twitter and ever Social Media that locals are on.
BLUF I would stay away from the Protest area with any LEO or NG Military Units. If the burn it down, so be it, Their loss.
Also I feel this Family has not done a thing to ask the public to stop all these Protest, Riots, Burnings, Looting, ETC. I think The last time they were on TIME was last Monday press conference where they ask for a stop to violence and demand justice for their son. Really.. Okay now.. Thank you!! I think the NAACP was also in Ferguson.
Rev. Al Sharpton and the NAACP and ever other type of THEM, YES THEM. They do nothing but feed off the poor to make themselves rich. The sad thing it the black community doesn't see it, blinded but all the free stuff they get. To long to write here. The black Communit needs more people like Rev Jonathan Gentry, He needs to find other and get there to eqducate Ferguson, not Rev. Sharpton.
mark46th
08-18-2014, 17:35
Kareem is a pseudo-intellectual. If he was half as smart as he and his buddies think he is, how come he went broke? How come he wasn't smart enough to buy home-owner's insurance to cover his oriental rug collection that was destroyed when his house burned? He was one of the greatest basketball players I have ever seen but he doesn't have the common sense that God gave a hat...
Peregrino
08-18-2014, 18:09
Kareem is a pseudo-intellectual. If he was half as smart as he and his buddies think he is, how come he went broke? How come he wasn't smart enough to buy home-owner's insurance to cover his oriental rug collection that was destroyed when his house burned? He was one of the greatest basketball players I have ever seen but he doesn't have the common sense that God gave a hat...
Another one trick pony. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them and, like a lot of PhDs out there, they think their expertise in one field qualifies them to pontificate as if they were an authority on everything.
Kareem was an iconic basketball player. This means he was one of the best people in the world at putting a round ball through a round hoop back in the day. He was rewarded for this, this is good.
If he wants to talk about basketball or sticking it to the Celtics back in the day, I'm all ears.
If the topic is life advice or his views on society, it's a free country and he's entitled to his opinion. Personally however, after reading his hyperbolic rambles he now seems a biscuit away from being a professional victim.
I've always wondered how being a great athlete or actor qualifies you as an expert outside your field?
Why so I have this odd feeling that when you combine the ominously convenient and timed sequencing of race-baiting incidents of recent years with the like of Occupy Movement et al we could see a digital aged repeat of Weathermen, Baader Meinhoff/RAF?
I've read a bit about such groups but much in open source seems to cover the most radical/kinetic portions of their activities.
There's not much out there I've found in easily digestible format on the shift from peaceful protest movement and how it metasticzed into something more dangerous.
Like the Arab Spring movements that saw partnership of educated/internet savvy social media activists with soccer hooligan gangs. I'm interested in those connections.
Just like I'm sure there's value in understanding the connections between Educated/internet savvy Occupy/Anonymous activists with street gangs, militant minority groups, etc.
I've often wondered if there is a pareto's principal for radicalisation?
A ratio(s) that involve X number of student protestors, Y % rate of unemployment among university graduates! and Z average student debt load.
1,000,000 student protestors producing A number of protestors willing to commit civil disobedience, B number willing to risk arrest, C willing to commit violence, etc.
I have to admit that I'm quite surprised not to see signs of a Baader Meinhoff 2.0 in the fringes of Europe with the insanely high youth unemployment numbers in places like Spain and Greece.
I'm also interested i seeing if Russia (and other opponents like Iran and China ) would return to funding, supporting, and enabling protest groups directly or via proxy.
DIYPatriot
08-19-2014, 08:27
Rev. Al Sharpton and the NAACP and ever other type of THEM, YES THEM. They do nothing but feed off the poor to make themselves rich. The sad thing it the black community doesn't see it, blinded but all the free stuff they get. To long to write here. The black Communit needs more people like Rev Jonathan Gentry, He needs to find other and get there to eqducate Ferguson, not Rev. Sharpton.
You're spot on. Without a racially-charged "crisis", how else can the Rainbow Push Coalition make their profit? They love these sorts of things. It solidifies their existence. Gentry seems to be a straight-up man that gives a damn for people regardless of their class/color. I don't know a great deal about him, but on the surface he seems like a good dude. Sadly, he'll be cast aside and forced out by Sharpton, Jackson, NAACP, RPC and others because he doesn't subscribe to their agenda.
Lighthouse
08-19-2014, 09:16
It's very hard for a member of a "disenfranchised group" to think of things logically in these situations. I explain to people in my old Bronx neighborhood certain facts about this "Mike Brown" story and what the law is (also how democrats support tyrannical laws). We talk about how government and police over reach and brutality are affecting all peoples across the nation, even to veterans (i.e. CJ Grisham) but they are just not trying to hear it.
I saw Brown's mother on TV today saying there won't be any justice until the officer is prosecuted and convicted. It seems to me there is a mass confusion of ethics and legality as well as the distinction of vengeance versus justice. Is the truth going to matter at this point? I think not.
You gentlemen are the diplomacy masters. How do you reason with the emotionally distracted?
The Reaper
08-19-2014, 11:13
I have now lost all respect for Kareem outside of a basketball court.
I think the sort of disrespect and mob rule that we are seeing in Ferguson is reflected in the comments that the LEO needs to be tried and convicted.
Your charming little boy strong-arm robbed a store on video tape, physically assaulted the clerk, and had a confrontation with a police officer.
I don't know what transpired at the site of the shooting, but if you choose to commit violent crimes and confront LEOs in the middle of the street, you are not avoiding trouble, you are creating it and have responsibility for it.
My son was stopped in our neighborhood recently while walking to a park with a buddy. He was asked for ID, where he lived, and where he was going.
He complied with the officer's questions respectfully and was soon on his way.
It turns out that there have been numerous afternoon burglaries in the neighborhood and someone called in a complaint that two young males were walking down the road, one wearing a backpack.
When he returned I inquired about the details, he said that the officer was polite and courteous.
I explained to him his rights during a pedestrian and vehicle stop, that he had rights to not show ID in some cases, not to consent to searches, etc., and the consequences of exercising those rights.
No belligerence, no assault, no robbery, and no one shot or killed. Hmm.
TR
BlueYing
08-19-2014, 11:52
I have now lost all respect for Kareem outside of a basketball court.
I think the sort of disrespect and mob rule that we are seeing in Ferguson is reflected in the comments that the LEO needs to be tried and convicted.
Your charming little boy strong-arm robbed a store on video tape, physically assaulted the clerk, and had a confrontation with a police officer.
I don't know what transpired at the site of the shooting, but if you choose to commit violent crimes and confront LEOs in the middle of the street, you are not avoiding trouble, you are creating it and have responsibility for it.
My son was stopped in our neighborhood recently while walking to a park with a buddy. He was asked for ID, where he lived, and where he was going.
He complied with the officer's questions respectfully and was soon on his way.
It turns out that there have been numerous afternoon burglaries in the neighborhood and someone called in a complaint that two young males were walking down the road, one wearing a backpack.
When he returned I inquired about the details, he said that the officer was polite and courteous.
I explained to him his rights during a pedestrian and vehicle stop, that he had rights to not show ID in some cases, not to consent to searches, etc., and the consequences of exercising those rights.
No belligerence, no assault, no robbery, and no one shot or killed. Hmm.
TR
Last Christmas my wife and I brought her niece with us to my family's Christmas. My wife's biological sister (both she and my wife were adopted and found each other a few years ago) is the stereotypical lower class. She doesn't work, has 8 children now and lives off the government.
My son loves all sorts of cars and trucks; especially police cars. At it so happens my brother is a police officer and he had his cruiser with him that day. My son got to go out and sit in the car as my brother turned on the sirens and lights. I've never seen his smile so big.
My wife asked her niece if she'd like to go sit in the car. She says, "No, police are bad." She was six at the time. At that age, you have to be taught police are bad.
My point is, TR, I have a sneaking suspicion you taught your son respect for authority and he's a fine young man. Just as there are good parents who teach their children right, there are bad parents who absolutely fail at parenting.
Yet in the end, no matter what we teach our children they will make their own decisions. I only hope my children pay attention and choose wisely.
WarriorDiplomat
08-19-2014, 12:18
It's very hard for a member of a "disenfranchised group" to think of things logically in these situations. I explain to people in my old Bronx neighborhood certain facts about this "Mike Brown" story and what the law is (also how democrats support tyrannical laws). We talk about how government and police over reach and brutality are affecting all peoples across the nation, even to veterans (i.e. CJ Grisham) but they are just not trying to hear it.
I saw Brown's mother on TV today saying there won't be any justice until the officer is prosecuted and convicted. It seems to me there is a mass confusion of ethics and legality as well as the distinction of vengeance versus justice. Is the truth going to matter at this point? I think not.
You gentlemen are the diplomacy masters. How do you reason with the emotionally distracted?
This situation is too deeply ingrained by race baiters for conventional diplomacy there will have to be an agreement or wait until the media loses interest and a majority of the supporters will lose interest.
If this were another country first we would need diversion to take the media focus away from the incident.
Next a PSYOPs campaign to delegitimize Jackson, Sharpton and the likes. Obviously these guys are your typical democrat that uses division instead of unity among people to profit and gain power as spokespersons. This is critical if we go kinetic before we prep the environment they will become martyrs and the situation will get much worse.
Once we delegitimize their influence we then need to take them out of the equation completely but very discreetly.
the next step is incentive and purpose needs to be focused on and exploited the final step is responsibility and reparations..
If this were a war in another country the people would be considered a war of movement starting to move against a government authority that has lost legitimacy. These are small fires that burnout rather quickly however if I wanted to begin and insurgency or UW campaign this would be a good indicator of where to start to topple the government. The fire could be fed with daily injustices, race/gender inequality and the social class class the next step would be organization then employment and you have a campaign.
The people in these protests are the angst generation, activist and followers of group think not true believers the herd mentality is what is driving the majority.
I have read instances where this was happening in the 60's during the heavy activism and was a plan to topple our government from outside influences. Even KGB agents paying renowned writers and scientists etc...to write provocative books and papers defending the socialist viewpoint.
FIS I guarantee salivate every time these things are broadcast on T.V. and other media.
The agendas of the democrats has always been to highlight division, read a paper and notice how they refer to everyone by social divides read the internet news the same thing always division never united. Democrats have used the divisiveness to campaign on as they are going to bring everyone together under equality. Yet they are the ones who use division constantly to remind social classes that we are not all equal in the eyes of our justice system. I get sick about hearing about the 1% from welfare types and even when you explain to them that the welfare money they live for free on is really not free and the the 1% and every single working person pays for it you get blank stares. Thank the Dems and if I were to design a strategy to topple this Government it would all stem from what the Dems do and focus on the divided minority groups and unite them under one purpose EQUALITY or nothing,
[QUOTE=Billy L-bach;560078]Kent State involved the Army shooting US citizens because they had spent several days throwing beer bottles at cars, busting up store fronts, bank windows, starting fires in the streets, and setting the campus ROTC building on fire.
Jackson State students started fires, threw rocks at white motorists and overturned vehicles.
-The police flipped the fuck out and when they couldn't disperse the rioting crowd, they shot into crowd killing two. COPS killed the rioting students at Jackson State.
Local police work getting out of control doesnt get national attention when the nation is still reeling over the fucking ARMY killing four students in a riot not even two weeks earlier, Lew...
It wasn't just cops, but the ARMY that killed college students in Ohio...
Four dead in Ohio, Lew...
...killed by angry Soldiers during a time when Soldiers generally though college kids where all dope smoking, commie sympathizing hippies.
That's a crock!
...the ARMY killed four dope smoking hippies. Whare did you get taht from?? Even if true, not a capitol offense It caused a national stink that still smells bad 44 years later.
The Kent State shootings were tragic.
...but then again, was it cool to set the fucking ROTC building on fire?
...was there a reason to throw rocks and bottles at passing motorists because they were mad at the president? [Again not a capitol offense...and the NG aren't judge and jury]
...was there a reason to break bank windows and set fire to the neighborhood? [again not capitol offenses]
FUCK NO.
...and the fucking ARMY doesn't DO law enforcement.[They were Ohio NG under the command and control of the Governor not US Army] [ The ARMY uses violence to force compliance. THAT is what we do... Lew. [again, they weren't Army troops, and they should have received training for civil disturbances and emergencies] We visit violence on those who piss off the US goivernment
Enemies, foriegn AND doemstic.
...thats right Lew, I'll shoot the fuck out of some hippie college students my damn self if the president tells me to.
Not because I am a racist, but because thats what your tax dollars pay me to do. The president had nothing to do with the President, the Army or the US Gov.
[quote]
I was in the NG at the time the Kent state killings took place, and consider it to have been a disgrace to the OHARNG. I don't give a crap who ordered it, I would not have fired an M1 randomly into a crowd in that situation.
:munchin
Nonstop24/7
08-19-2014, 17:17
Famous Democrat saying..."Don't let a good crises go to waste"!
Any where division and strife can be stirred up, they will contribute the max to it and raise it up on the backs of the poor and low information folks.
DOL
Lighthouse
08-19-2014, 17:36
This situation is too deeply ingrained by race baiters for conventional diplomacy there will have to be an agreement or wait until the media loses interest and a majority of the supporters will lose interest.
If this were another country first we would need diversion to take the media focus away from the incident.
Next a PSYOPs campaign to delegitimize Jackson, Sharpton and the likes. Obviously these guys are your typical democrat that uses division instead of unity among people to profit and gain power as spokespersons. This is critical if we go kinetic before we prep the environment they will become martyrs and the situation will get much worse.
Once we delegitimize their influence we then need to take them out of the equation completely but very discreetly.
the next step is incentive and purpose needs to be focused on and exploited the final step is responsibility and reparations..
If this were a war in another country the people would be considered a war of movement starting to move against a government authority that has lost legitimacy. These are small fires that burnout rather quickly however if I wanted to begin and insurgency or UW campaign this would be a good indicator of where to start to topple the government. The fire could be fed with daily injustices, race/gender inequality and the social class class the next step would be organization then employment and you have a campaign.
The people in these protests are the angst generation, activist and followers of group think not true believers the herd mentality is what is driving the majority.
I have read instances where this was happening in the 60's during the heavy activism and was a plan to topple our government from outside influences. Even KGB agents paying renowned writers and scientists etc...to write provocative books and papers defending the socialist viewpoint.
FIS I guarantee salivate every time these things are broadcast on T.V. and other media.
The agendas of the democrats has always been to highlight division, read a paper and notice how they refer to everyone by social divides read the internet news the same thing always division never united. Democrats have used the divisiveness to campaign on as they are going to bring everyone together under equality. Yet they are the ones who use division constantly to remind social classes that we are not all equal in the eyes of our justice system. I get sick about hearing about the 1% from welfare types and even when you explain to them that the welfare money they live for free on is really not free and the the 1% and every single working person pays for it you get blank stares. Thank the Dems and if I were to design a strategy to topple this Government it would all stem from what the Dems do and focus on the divided minority groups and unite them under one purpose EQUALITY or nothing,
I feel like I just got an op order, life lesson, and political science class all in one. I dont whether to applaud or perform a functions check and get an ammo count. Very well put sir.
WCH
The Nation Guard is part of the US Army. If you doubt that, please refer to the name tape that is worn over the left pocket on a Guardsmans uniform.
Otherwise, you have clearly missed the sarcasm of that entire post.
I was in the NG at the time the Kent state killings took place, and consider it to have been a disgrace to the OHARNG. I don't give a crap who ordered it, I would not have fired an M1 randomly into a crowd in that situation.
:munchin
Speaking of sarcasm, accurate aimed fire is what we would have expected of you...
And all you need is something like this BS to start it off.
www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/7484828-Video-Mo-police-open-fire-in-fatal-standoff-with-knife-wielding-man/
DIYPatriot
08-22-2014, 14:36
So what were the cops supposed to do? Let the guy stab them?
If you paid better attention to the video, you would realize that there were many other options. It didn't have to come to this. The guy that recorded those trigger-happy officers shooting the man over a couple honey buns and a couple drinks offered several suggestions - from tasing him to shooting him in the leg - there were numerous things the officers could've done. I'm quite certain that another bystander suggested the officers invite the innocent and hungry honeybun bandit to a beer summit to discuss their differences, but no...they would have none of it.
As one of the other unbiased and well-meaning bystanders pointed out, "Why would they shoot somebody at a time like this (6:24)?". Apparently, there's an unwritten rule that officers (and anyone else who feels threatened) should look the other way when someone is closing the distance with them while threatening them with a deadly weapon. After all, it's way too soon after Ferguson to go back to the way things were when we wanted to defend ourselves from being seriously injured or killed.
I really hope I don't have to select pink font for this. ;)
Team Sergeant
08-22-2014, 15:33
So what were the cops supposed to do? Let the guy stab them? Taking a knife away from somebody in real life is not like the movies. Look up 21 foot rule for shootings. I did a quick google search and found this.
http://modernurbancombattactics.blogspot.com/2012/03/reality-of-knife-defense.html
It's all about training. I've blown away that 21 foot "myth" with a holstered gun. I've yet to have anyone make it to me before I shoot. That's with a holstered gun. Imagine if the gun was already in my hands.
Most LEO's could not hit the water if they fell off the boat. It's all about training and mindset.
Looked like suicide-by-cop to me.
Pat
DIYPatriot
08-22-2014, 17:24
Looked like suicide-by-cop to me.
Was it that? Or was it "let's make a statement by cop"? Or both? Down here in Memphis, we're already seeing so-called community organizers (http://www.memphisrap.com/2014/08/22/memphis-group-set-tackle-local-police-brutality-michael-brown-shooting/) coming together to tell the police what the citizens will and will not tolerate from them regarding their use of force, as well as rallies and marches (http://wreg.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-protests-spark-march-in-downtown-memphis/). I firmly believe this city is forever stuck in 1968, but that's an entirely different discussion.
Was it that? Or was it "let's make a statement by cop"? Or both? Down here in Memphis, we're already seeing so-called community organizers (http://www.memphisrap.com/2014/08/22/memphis-group-set-tackle-local-police-brutality-michael-brown-shooting/) coming together to tell the police what the citizens will and will not tolerate from them regarding their use of force, as well as rallies and marches (http://wreg.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-protests-spark-march-in-downtown-memphis/). I firmly believe this city is forever stuck in 1968, but that's an entirely different discussion.
The dude was approaching them with a knife saying, "Shoot me. Shoot me. Come on, shoot me now." They just accommodated his request.
Pat
Was it that? Or was it "let's make a statement by cop"? Or both? Down here in Memphis, we're already seeing so-called community organizers (http://www.memphisrap.com/2014/08/22/memphis-group-set-tackle-local-police-brutality-michael-brown-shooting/) coming together to tell the police what the citizens will and will not tolerate from them regarding their use of force, as well as rallies and marches (http://wreg.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-protests-spark-march-in-downtown-memphis/). I firmly believe this city is forever stuck in 1968, but that's an entirely different discussion.
In Ohio we have a state approved "Force Continuum Policy". If this happened in our state it would be completely justified to use the weapon against this dumb arse. I'd like to see you come up here to Ohio and tell us "what and what not you are going to tolerate from us. This assumption you make sounds to me that you are talking about "all" COP's. You haven't even bothered to differentiate between the good ones or the bad ones. Do you know the difference and if so, give me an example of each. These officers acted appropiately.
One other item, go ride with the Memphis PD on a hot Friday night in the worst area. You should be able to do this because you should have the right to see how your tax money is being spent.
DIYPatriot
08-23-2014, 08:41
In Ohio we have a state approved "Force Continuum Policy". If this happened in our state it would be completely justified to use the weapon against this dumb arse. I'd like to see you come up here to Ohio and tell us "what and what not you are going to tolerate from us. This assumption you make sounds to me that you are talking about "all" COP's. You haven't even bothered to differentiate between the good ones or the bad ones. Do you know the difference and if so, give me an example of each. These officers acted appropiately.
One other item, go ride with the Memphis PD on a hot Friday night in the worst area. You should be able to do this because you should have the right to see how your tax money is being spent.
I wasn't suggesting that what our citizens are doing was cool, or in the least bit, a good idea. To me, they'll use any sort of situation to draw attention to their own agendas. Regarding St. Louis, I definitely feel that the officers acted appropriately. By the way, I was totally being sarcastic in a previous post. That dude definitely was a suicide by cop. Part of me feels that he was also trying to make a statement, too.
As for ride-a-longs, I've actually done that. My neighbor, who happens to be a very good buddy, is a narc detective and several of my friends are on the force.
GreenSalsa
08-23-2014, 16:03
And all you need is something like this BS to start it off.
www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/7484828-Video-Mo-police-open-fire-in-fatal-standoff-with-knife-wielding-man/
Fairly frustrated at the latest round of phone videos showing Kajieme Powell attacking two Missouri Police Officers with a knife.
Mr Powell provokes a Police response by deliberately stealing some minor items from a convenience store and standing around for the inevitable encounter. What is appalling is the glee and joy of the crowd at the anticipation of the expected encounter. Multiple camera phones are brought out, many 6-7 minutes long all focused on Mr Powell.
As soon as the Police arrive, Mr Powell makes direct threatening moves, rapidly closing the distance between himself and the officers, knife in one hand yelling "shoot me!"
From the Officer's point of view, they are called to the scene, with reports of a weapon and robbery, and within 15 seconds of arriving, Mr Powell charges them. They are forced to oblige, a few seconds later and 10-12 rounds later, Mr Powell is fatally wounded.
Why am I frustrated? Because the community and spectators around him could have easily disarmed him, confronted him, or found another way to end the situation. Instead, in a macabre manner, they chose to film this event and watch one young man end his life and two Officers have to do the unthinkable.
This was preventable, not by the Officers (who had less than 15 seconds to make life and death decisions) but by the community who vicariously filmed the event for their own amusement and now try to blame others for their inaction and callous behavior.
I am just infuriated at the cheapening way life is now lived in America.
Already the Beacon Journal here has some articles on both the Ferguson shooting and the St Louis shooting. These have appeared in the "Editorial" Pages naturally. We have people who saw the shooting of the idiot with the knife, commenting on why they didn't use Tazer(s) instead of their weapons?
We also, have our Mayor makings his opinion known about why the FBI needs to come in and investigate any shootings that involves the Police or Sheriff's Office. Personally, I think it is time for our Mayor and his opinions to go at the next elections. He has always, did I say ALWAYS, been a PITA to everyone and especially to law enforcement and even the Fire Department.
DIYPatriot
10-22-2014, 10:42
Missouri state senator Jamilah Nasheed (http://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/65451/jamilah-nasheed#.VEfaGfnF_-U) was arrested while protesting in Ferguson. She had a concealed handgun in her possession, yet she's a supporter for harsh gun controls for other people (http://votesmart.org/bill/16583/46283/65451/prohibits-the-enforcement-of-federal-firearm-regulations#.VEfeHvnF_-U).
The story (http://www.kmov.com/special-coverage-001/State-Senator-arrested-outside-Ferguson-Police-Department-279860142.html)
Missouri State Senator Jamilah Nasheed had a gun in her possession at the time she was arrested Monday night outside the Ferguson Police Department, according to Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson.
Nasheed declined comment about the having the weapon, but did tell News 4 she has a concealed carry permit. A Ferguson police officer said Nasheed was carrying a fully-loaded 9 mm handgun and additional rounds of ammunition.
Sources also told News 4 Ferguson police requested St. Ann to administer a breathalyzer test at the time of her arrest because she "smelled strongly of intoxicants," but Nasheed refused to do so. Nasheed said Tuesday she was not intoxicated at the time.
Not to detract from this, but does it bother anyone else when the media reports on a weapon being "fully loaded"? Who the hell carries a partially loaded weapon? I just find that laughable. Gotta love sensationalism.
Streck-Fu
11-13-2014, 13:38
Can we just classify the protestors as terrorists? LINK (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/st-louis-schools-townships-warn-residents-to-stock-up-on-water-food-medicine-before-mikebrown-decision/).... We are planning to visit family in St. Louis for T-giving. Guess I should go in heavy.
The Reaper
11-13-2014, 14:02
Can we just classify the protestors as terrorists? LINK (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/st-louis-schools-townships-warn-residents-to-stock-up-on-water-food-medicine-before-mikebrown-decision/).... We are planning to visit family in St. Louis for T-giving. Guess I should go in heavy.
Better to have and not need, than need and not have....
TR
Can we just classify the protestors as terrorists? LINK (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/st-louis-schools-townships-warn-residents-to-stock-up-on-water-food-medicine-before-mikebrown-decision/).... We are planning to visit family in St. Louis for T-giving. Guess I should go in heavy.
Check the local & state code.
You might also develop several alternate driving routs around the city hub. There may be road blocks to filter out external agitators and they may be doing cavity checks...
BrokenSwitch
11-14-2014, 03:49
Can we just classify the protestors as terrorists?
The exact text from the US Constitution regarding protests is the following:
Congress shall make no law respecting...or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
What are the rules for defining "peaceable"? (event permits, not obstructing important infrastructure, keeping public areas accessible to non-protesters, etc)?
How do the police arrest *just* the vandals and provocateurs? Alternatively, how many provocateurs does the crowd need to have, before the police have justification to scoop up the whole lot of them, and process/charge/release individuals at a later time? How long can someone be confined without charge (I seem to recall that the limit for confinement without charge is between 24 and 72 hours)?
(These are also important questions on my side of the Atlantic, in light of the Arabs' ongoing shenanigans, and the security forces' inconsistent rules and crazy political issues).
Streck-Fu
11-14-2014, 07:31
Check the local & state code.
I am legal for anything I have to bring....
You might also develop several alternate driving routs around the city hub. There may be road blocks to filter out external agitators and they may be doing cavity checks...
The concern is from threats of spill over, taking it to the other neighborhoods. My family lives on and near The Hill off I-44 so the protestors from Ferguson would have to travel pretty far to get to them. The real issue may come from protest contagion; everyone getting into the party. They have had issues before with roving groups taking targets of opportunity (mostly breaking into vehicles).
If it blows up before the holiday, we may not go....otherwise, we'll monitor.
Badger52
11-14-2014, 07:54
You might also develop several alternate driving routs around the city hub. There may be road blocks to filter out external agitators and they may be doing cavity checks...Good advice. And for those flying in, and proximity of that AO to Lambert Field, going "walkabout" with the rental car wouldn't be advised.
I am legal for anything I have to bring....
The concern is from threats of spill over, taking it to the other neighborhoods. My family lives on and near The Hill off I-44 so the protestors from Ferguson would have to travel pretty far to get to them. The real issue may come from protest contagion; everyone getting into the party. They have had issues before with roving groups taking targets of opportunity (mostly breaking into vehicles).
If it blows up before the holiday, we may not go....otherwise, we'll monitor.
As I recall from a criterium race back in 1995 'The Hill' is a pristine Italian neighborhood that borders the hood. Our drive between I-70 and the Hill was pretty rough looking during the day light hours.
http://gatewaycup.com/races/giro-della-montagna/
About 10 years prior to that on a trip to Rockford, IL I pulled off I-70 in about the same area for gas about 7-8 PM. When I got out to pump the gas the old Black man who ran the station told me to get back in my car and he would take care of it...he informed me I was getting eyed.....then after he filled my tank he made me promise I would not stop until I reached the Illinois state line.
Streck-Fu
11-14-2014, 08:51
As I recall from a criterium race back in 1995 'The Hill' is a pristine Italian neighborhood that borders the hood. Our drive between I-70 and the Hill was pretty rough looking during the day light hours.
You may have driven down Kingshighway which is pretty rough right up to the point you hit the Chase Park Plaza luxury hotel near Forest Park.
Unfortunately, my mother lives on the 'rougher' side of The Hill which is split by I-44. North of I-44 is a small area is more industrial and not as well kept as the larger area south of I44 where are the nicer homes and restaurants are.
Badger52
11-14-2014, 09:22
The exact text from the US Constitution regarding protests is the following:
What are the rules for defining "peaceable"? (event permits, not obstructing important infrastructure, keeping public areas accessible to non-protesters, etc)?
How do the police arrest *just* the vandals and provocateurs? Alternatively, how many provocateurs does the crowd need to have, before the police have justification to scoop up the whole lot of them, and process/charge/release individuals at a later time? How long can someone be confined without charge (I seem to recall that the limit for confinement without charge is between 24 and 72 hours)?
(These are also important questions on my side of the Atlantic, in light of the Arabs' ongoing shenanigans, and the security forces' inconsistent rules and crazy political issues).Important questions everywhere. Does only the breaking of an existing law remove the mantle of being "peaceably assembled"? At what point does a 'provocateur' become subject to arrest (under laws which ostensibly protect free speech)? (I'll bet the state of Washington has already pre-classified the 5000+ folks who have pledged to assemble in December, in defiance of the recent draconian gun-control measure, as terrorists - at least in their nightmares.)
Important questions everywhere. Does only the breaking of an existing law remove the mantle of being "peaceably assembled"? At what point does a 'provocateur' become subject to arrest (under laws which ostensibly protect free speech)? (I'll bet the state of Washington has already pre-classified the 5000+ folks who have pledged to assemble in December, in defiance of the recent draconian gun-control measure, as terrorists - at least in their nightmares.)
In all the "protests" I have read-watch over the years, there seems to be some sort of DA/LEO code that says "If we don't catch them Red-handed, we don't do anything"
All of the MSM news videos show the LEO's in defensive mode. Only rarely do you see heads getting popped and perps arrested.
I suspect that the local politicians are more worried about the next election than upholding the law.
Maybe now that all the LEO's have MRAP's we will see some
change??
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/wisconsin-police-bring-bearcat-armored-vehicle-property-fine
http://www.newsweek.com/how-americas-police-became-army-1033-program-264537?piano_t=1
"Ferguson Police patrol in MRAP" :confused:
The Reaper
11-14-2014, 10:20
In all the "protests" I have read-watch over the years, there seems to be some sort of DA/LEO code that says "If we don't catch them Red-handed, we don't do anything"
All of the MSM news videos show the LEO's in defensive mode. Only rarely do you see heads getting popped and perps arrested.
I suspect that the local politicians are more worried about the next election than upholding the law.
Maybe now that all the LEO's have MRAP's we will see some
change??
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/wisconsin-police-bring-bearcat-armored-vehicle-property-fine
http://www.newsweek.com/how-americas-police-became-army-1033-program-264537?piano_t=1
"Ferguson Police patrol in MRAP" :confused:
That is not an MRAP, it is a civilian armored car, like the banks use.
This discussion brings up another important point.
As a civilian, at what point can you employ deadly force against individuals who are rioting and in the process threatening you?
Can you employ deadly force to protect your property from a riot?
I would assume that them trashing or burning your car is not sufficient legal cause to use deadly force, nor is rioting and making threats while in the street in front of your house or business, but do you have to let them throw the first Molotov before you can fire? What is the standard then for identifying and engaging only the ones who are directly engaging you? Your shotgun pattern might be a little indiscriminate for that purpose. Or is the mob considered to be a justifiable target as a group since the numbers engaged in violence themselves present a deadly threat?
I wish Mr. Brown's accomplice had told the truth about what really happened.
TR
Streck-Fu
11-14-2014, 10:32
Can you employ deadly force to protect your property from a riot?
Obviously state law applies but ask these guys how it worked out...LINK (http://iamkoream.com/april-issue-la-riots-in-our-own-words/)
KEE WHAN HA
So I went on radio, and I said, “Don’t go home. Protect your business. Your business is your life. All your rifles. All your weapons, bring everything out.”
RICHARD CHOI
I wondered legally how this would work out. Could we, while protecting our town, if something bad happens, could we have some liability? [Our lawyer] said, “You have a right and a duty to protect your property. In America, that’s why you have the right to bear arms.” So from 4/30, around 10 a.m., the message on the radio became: We have to protect our town.
Badger52
11-14-2014, 13:00
This discussion brings up another important point.
As a civilian, at what point can you employ deadly force against individuals who are rioting and in the process threatening you?
Can you employ deadly force to protect your property from a riot?
I would assume that them trashing or burning your car is not sufficient legal cause to use deadly force, nor is rioting and making threats while in the street in front of your house or business, but do you have to let them throw the first Molotov before you can fire? What is the standard then for identifying and engaging only the ones who are directly engaging you? Your shotgun pattern might be a little indiscriminate for that purpose. Or is the mob considered to be a justifiable target as a group since the numbers engaged in violence themselves present a deadly threat?
Not an answer sir, but I see your question as a call (very properly) for folks to answer these questions in their own locale BEFORE things go south. (Just my view but anyone who carries should be familiar with their own deadly force laws.) And these would take into account things (locally) such as duty to retreat from a business vs. a home, or no requirement at all? How is arson or attempted arson viewed as a direct threat that invokes use of deadly force, etc. (Probably varies widely, state to state, e.g., up here even attempted arson of a building that could be occupied is considered attempted murder and justifies deadly force, even if used by a 3rd party ostensibly protecting the person being victimized. The moment someone lights up & rears back to put a Molotov through my neighbors window they get dumped, contrasted with too-bad-so-sad if someone simply puts a rock through their car window as it sits in the driveway.)
Obviously state law applies but ask these guys how it worked out...LINK (http://iamkoream.com/april-issue-la-riots-in-our-own-words/)
Molatov cocktails. The Reaper and his Socratic method. :)
In both Illinois and Wisconsin this approach of "...you have a right and a duty to protect your property..." would end up with you in a shower with a whole lot of naked guys. No thanks. I don't know of any State that allows application of lethal force by a civilian for the protection of property. A show of force, maybe, depending on the situation and venue (although here in the People's Republic it would probably result in a felony brandishing charge).
"You shot this poor child for stealing a pair of Air Jordans?"
Before I got my CCW I spent some money and spoke with an attorney who actually specialized in lethal force, self-defense cases. Just as you wouldn't trust a pediatrician to replace your knee, you need a specialist to provide the appropriate legal advice when it comes to self-defense.
Are you in a state with JAM or AOJ bias? (Jeopardy/Ability/Means versus Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy) Do you know why the difference is important? Can you articulate in a court of law your thought process for judging that your life was in danger? What specific behaviors did your attacker exhibit? Why couldn't you retreat? Even if you live in a State with a castle doctrine that doesn't mean your life can't be ruined by a technically legal but questionable case of self-defense.
Being threatened with a Molotov cocktail may or may not justify lethal force. If you can't retreat out of harm's way and the guy is close enough to actually endanger you, hell yes, but remember you're facing a jury that might not like you very much. And God help you if you shoot the guy after he's thrown it. Hint: he no longer represents a threat.
Shooting at others in the crowd because "I was in fear of my life"...very problematic. Multiple attackers certainly raise the stakes. Rioters approaching you personally (not just your vicinity) after you attempt to retreat, you tell them you don't want any trouble, and you warn them not to come any closer? Probably a good shoot. Better if you can also articulate that one guy looked around to see if there were cameras or witnesses present, that a second patted the area around his belt buckle as if checking a weapon, and a third voiced direct threats.
My attorney said that the biggest load of horseshit next to "judged by 12/carried by 6" was the strategy of spouting "He attacked me and I was in fear of my life!" and expecting it to magically make all your troubles disappear. Nobody gives a shit if you were scared. If the jury thinks you provoked the event ("this wasn't self-defense, it was a fight") or the dead "victim" wasn't perceived to be a lethal threat, you're in deep kimchee.
And being on the losing end of a fight is not justification for putting two into his brain pan. Not unless you can convince 12 people that he was trying to kill you and not just set you straight. And the bar will probably be raised because you likely said or did inappropriate things during the dance that led up to the fight. ("Officer, it all started when he punched me back.")
Finally, a plea of self-defense is incredibly dangerous because you're admitting that you killed the guy and the only thing that will keep you out of jail is meeting certain intensely specific criteria. You might be better off going for "justifiable use of force in the defense of others" or even "some other guy did it."
Don't be Ron White: "I had the right to remain silent... but I didn't have the ability." Explicitly state you won't make a statement until counsel is there to stop you from hanging yourself and then shut up.
Bottom line: find a knowledgeable lawyer in your area who understands self defense in the political context of your state/community. See if he'll address your club/church/street gang. If necessary, chip in and hire him to address your club/church/street gang. Get his card. Keep your business insurance paid up and make sure the policy is up to snuff. Get a "lost business/custom" addendum. Stay out of areas where you might have to defend yourself.
The guy scared the living crap outta me. I left his office with a completely different attitude than when I entered. And my 16 hours of mandated CCW training? Ha.
Texas has a criminal mischief statute which allows use of force (Deadly). Makes for a polite society wherein you don't get people screwing with your property after the hours of darkness.
Unfortunately, in our more "progressive" and "enlightened" states...they would rather let the savages rule than enforce social decorum.
Javadrinker
11-14-2014, 17:08
This seems a good time and place to post links to Texas Law Shield, and US Law Shield. These are attorneys that specialize in CCW, use of deadly force, etc.
Texas Law Shield - https://www.texaslawshield.com/
US Law Shield - https://www.uslawshield.com/
Texas has a criminal mischief statute which allows use of force (Deadly). Makes for a polite society wherein you don't get people screwing with your property after the hours of darkness.
Unfortunately, in our more "progressive" and "enlightened" states...they would rather let the savages rule than enforce social decorum.
Amazing. Just read the law. Flip that law on its ear and it's what we face here. Replace the word "justified" with "not justified".
Streck-Fu
11-14-2014, 21:30
Missouri statute:
563.036. 1. A person in possession or control of premises or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of the crime of trespass by the other person.
2. A person may use deadly force under circumstances described in subsection 1 of this section only:
(1) When such use of deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or
(2) When he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the trespasser to commit arson or burglary upon his dwelling; or
(3) When entry into the premises is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering physical violence to any person or being in the premises and he reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony.
3. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.
Tony Bourdain, in the 2nd episode of CNN's first season of Parts Unknown, went to Koreatown, in L.A., and interviewed guys who armed themselves against the rioters during the '92 riots. Well worth watching. Oh, they talked about food, too! ;)
Pat
Badger52
11-14-2014, 22:17
And being on the losing end of a fight is not justification for putting two into his brain pan. Not unless you can convince 12 people that he was trying to kill you and not just set you straight. And the bar will probably be raised because you likely said or did inappropriate things during the dance that led up to the fight. ("Officer, it all started when he punched me back.")Our statutes are very clear that provocation throws one's use of force defense out the window. But it's also very clear that 'death' isn't the only criteria; the possibility of being stomped & kicked to the point of vegetation and/or taking all life through a tube is certainly a threat of "grievous bodily harm."
The demographic over here is certainly different than the other side of the state in little Chicago-North. But I'll do what I gotta do and, for good or bad, the permutations of my attorney will likely not be in my mind at the actual moment of dealing with a potential arson or home invasion. Everyone's gotta live with their decisions, or not.
Our statutes are very clear that provocation throws one's use of force defense out the window. But it's also very clear that 'death' isn't the only criteria; the possibility of being stomped & kicked to the point of vegetation and/or taking all life through a tube is certainly a threat of "grievous bodily harm."
Yep. Shod feet are deadly weapons even in Illinois.
MSM to the rescue.. :mad:
These A$$HO's will create a story to precipitate a disaster...
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/architect-behind-violent-1999-wto-riots-is-holding-mass-training-sessions-in-ferguson/
Badger52
11-15-2014, 07:04
MSM to the rescue.. :mad:
These A$$HO's will create a story to precipitate a disaster...
Don't consider gateway pundit MSM but even the major leagues have farm teams. :) The various activists have put out themselves that they're going to shut down Clayton (biz suburb south of Ferguson/Florissant 'hot' area, due west of metro STL area) and their decision to shut down streets to "foster dialogue and awareness" seems to be one method regardless of verdict. Clayton's Police Chief responds (http://www.claytonmo.gov/Government/News/Clayton_Update__November_14__2014_s2_p2645.htm) yesterday.
TacOfficer
11-15-2014, 08:38
I've worked protests, violent and peaceful.
I've stood face to face with the anarchist and citizen with grievance.
I promise you, what ever course of defense you take as a citizen will be judged with political intent, because the powers that be view all protest/riots as a political event. Essentially, any resistance to the savage "expressing" himself by a citizen, will not be tolerated.
In communist Cook County/Chicago, you would be screwed.
The only reason the police here are allowed to mitigate riots is because the liberal elites don't want their way of life/property interrupted. They know better and what's good for you.
Remember the reason for Ferguson: It started with an act of self defense.
Just my $.02
Interesting target map..
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/justice-for-mike-brown-group-releases-list-of-targets-including-anheuser-busch-boeing-emerson-electric-airport/
Another view from Google:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zUZF2TD57qeo.kkuz--qwlUS8
Streck-Fu
11-18-2014, 07:11
That is a map with problems for residents if trusted. There is at least one significant error....LINK (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/ferguson-group-terrorizes-local-family-with-kids-posts-their-home-address-on-targeting-list/)
Unfortunately for one local family their home address also made the list.
They reached out to us last night.
We were made aware that one of the locations on your interactive map wrongly identifies our residential home as a “hit” location. The address shown is for Carey and Danis LLC at 8235 Forsyth Blvd, FL 11, Clayton, MO 63105.
However, when you click on the “$” on the map, it actually shows our home on Wydown Blvd at the corner of Wydown and Hillvale Avenue. We have small children in the home and since we don’t know how people are going to react after the verdict is announced this really worries us.
Please help us either get the address corrected or our address not highlighted with yellow dollar sign.
Team Sergeant
11-18-2014, 13:44
That is a map with problems for residents if trusted. There is at least one significant error....LINK (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/11/ferguson-group-terrorizes-local-family-with-kids-posts-their-home-address-on-targeting-list/)
Unfortunately for one local family their home address also made the list.
They reached out to us last night.
We were made aware that one of the locations on your interactive map wrongly identifies our residential home as a “hit” location. The address shown is for Carey and Danis LLC at 8235 Forsyth Blvd, FL 11, Clayton, MO 63105.
However, when you click on the “$” on the map, it actually shows our home on Wydown Blvd at the corner of Wydown and Hillvale Avenue. We have small children in the home and since we don’t know how people are going to react after the verdict is announced this really worries us.
Please help us either get the address corrected or our address not highlighted with yellow dollar sign.
That's what happens when ISIS draws up your target list....... morons.
Keystone,, Oil or Kops??
Riot Training Ends in Disaster: Cops Wreck 3 Cruisers, Deploy Tear Gas on Elementary School Students
By: Barry Donegan Nov 18, 2014
A police training exercise descended into chaos on Friday morning when Columbus, OH police wrecked three cruisers into each other and accidentally deployed tear gas on a nearby elementary school, sending six students home with eye and throat irritation and a pregnant teacher to the hospital for observation.
http://benswann.com/riot-training-ends-in-disaster-cops-wreck-3-cruisers-deploy-tear-gas-on-elementary-school-students/
Film at 11PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRlZaSWocQk
The Reaper
11-18-2014, 16:29
Protecting and serving (again)!
TR
bushmaster11
11-20-2014, 17:05
Race war has potential. I think that the living standards of 99% of the country and no hope of, or little hope of improving their living standards.
IMHO that has more legitimacy in a disconnected populace than race. It covers all races, all segments of society. How long can a lid be kept on. Most of us are doing OK, however, no community is exempt from the effects of the disparity of the distribution of wealth.
I offer this as a situation that effects 99%. There is no trickle down. The 1% has it and has every legal right to it. However, IMHO somewhere society has lost its moral compass.
I do not have an answer. I am interested in other opinions.
J R sends
DOL
Race war has potential. I think that the living standards of 99% of the country and no hope of, or little hope of improving their living standards......
I think the living standards for most of the 99% are pretty good.
My neighborhood is solidly in the 99% and 48% black, 46% white.
Everybody here pretty much goes to work and comes home. I don't foresee any race war within at least a few subdivisions over from here.
The Reaper
11-20-2014, 18:06
Race war has potential. I think that the living standards of 99% of the country and no hope of, or little hope of improving their living standards.
IMHO that has more legitimacy in a disconnected populace than race. It covers all races, all segments of society. How long can a lid be kept on. Most of us are doing OK, however, no community is exempt from the effects of the disparity of the distribution of wealth.
I offer this as a situation that effects 99%. There is no trickle down. The 1% has it and has every legal right to it. However, IMHO somewhere society has lost its moral compass.
I do not have an answer. I am interested in other opinions.
J R sends
DOL
The poor in this country are the richest in the world.
Where else can you be "poor" but have decent free housing, free food, free education, free health care, a car, a big screen TV, a free government provided cell phone, etc., all paid for by someone else's work.
In my service, the poor I have seen outside the U.S. have largely been homeless, hungry, sick, without transportation, and pretty much without any hope. And they tend to be locked into their positions with no chance for upward mobility.
Unlike a certain president we know.
TR
craigepo
11-20-2014, 20:07
Race war has potential. I think that the living standards of 99% of the country and no hope of, or little hope of improving their living standards.
IMHO that has more legitimacy in a disconnected populace than race. It covers all races, all segments of society. How long can a lid be kept on. Most of us are doing OK, however, no community is exempt from the effects of the disparity of the distribution of wealth.
I offer this as a situation that effects 99%. There is no trickle down. The 1% has it and has every legal right to it. However, IMHO somewhere society has lost its moral compass.
I do not have an answer. I am interested in other opinions.
J R sends
DOL
The free market system in the United States has created more wealth than all other types of government economies combined. We are the most charitable nation in history. Trickle-down economics is what enables this.
This whole discussion of "wealth disparity" is a discussion had by spoiled snobs in Ivy League tea rooms. I saw a statistic a couple of weeks ago, that if a person was worth $3,500, he/she was in the top 50% of wealth in the world. People in the United States have the right to complain, but they do it with their mouths full.
The end results of LBJ's War on Poverty are some of the most cruel of any government program we have ever initiated. We have locked a huge percentage of the population into multi-generational poverty, as we have made it easier for a person to sit on their butt and get a check out of the mailbox than to go find a job.
Our poor people are fat. They are fat because they receive a lot of government handouts. Government phones, free medical care, free education, food stamps, free attorneys. If the government handouts aren't enough, they can go to local churches and get more free stuff. They get free housing through HUD. If they are homeless, which is usually a choice, they go to local free shelters. The more children they have, the more free stuff they get.
Poor people in third-world countries are skinny and wormy and unhealthy and hungry and thirsty. They have little to any medical or dental care. The military and police force are often one and the same, and very poorly trained. Their housing is delapidated. Running water and electricity are hard to come by. Their hair is dreadlocked because it never gets washed or combed. They don't have jobs because their economy sucks. Their rights to free speech and free exercise of religion are often curtailed or non-existent. They often can't grow crops, because the soil and irrigation potential of where they live sucks.
Atlas shrugged.
Lighthouse
11-20-2014, 21:09
The free market system in the United States has created more wealth than all other types of government economies combined. We are the most charitable nation in history. Trickle-down economics is what enables this.
This whole discussion of "wealth disparity" is a discussion had by spoiled snobs in Ivy League tea rooms. I saw a statistic a couple of weeks ago, that if a person was worth $3,500, he/she was in the top 50% of wealth in the world. People in the United States have the right to complain, but they do it with their mouths full.
The end results of LBJ's War on Poverty are some of the most cruel of any government program we have ever initiated. We have locked a huge percentage of the population into multi-generational poverty, as we have made it easier for a person to sit on their butt and get a check out of the mailbox than to go find a job.
Our poor people are fat. They are fat because they receive a lot of government handouts. Government phones, free medical care, free education, food stamps, free attorneys. If the government handouts aren't enough, they can go to local churches and get more free stuff. They get free housing through HUD. If they are homeless, which is usually a choice, they go to local free shelters. The more children they have, the more free stuff they get.
Poor people in third-world countries are skinny and wormy and unhealthy and hungry and thirsty. They have little to any medical or dental care. The military and police force are often one and the same, and very poorly trained. Their housing is delapidated. Running water and electricity are hard to come by. Their hair is dreadlocked because it never gets washed or combed. They don't have jobs because their economy sucks. Their rights to free speech and free exercise of religion are often curtailed or non-existent. They often can't grow crops, because the soil and irrigation potential of where they live sucks.
Atlas shrugged.
Truer words about the American ghetto have never been spoken. It is still a constant struggle to break the chains of the poverty cycle my family left to me. This is perfect. Do you mind if I use this?
Apparently the GJ has reached a decision on this Ferguson debacle to be announced tonight or tomorrow morning:
http://cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/curtis-kalin/reports-ferguson-grand-jury-has-reached-decision
This should be good. Stay tuned...
The Reaper
11-24-2014, 16:26
I would hold it till Weds at 1700.
How many people want to riot on Thanksgiving?
TR
No indictment, as predicted:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/ferguson-grand-jury-deliberations/19474907/
Hopefully the masses in that neck of the woods keep it civil. Once all the facts were presented, an indictment was a pretty far reach. I'm glad the system worked for once, and didn't buckle to public opinion. Now we wait...
(1VB)compforce
11-24-2014, 20:33
live HD stream of the protests from the barrier at the PD:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/heatherdemian
Picking up a lot of hate speech from the protesters. Graphic language at the link (surprise surprise)
edit: sounded like a shot fired, LEO riot line retreated behind their cars and most of the protesters took off from the area.
The Reaper
11-24-2014, 21:29
President Obama to speak on this :rolleyes:
I am sure he will make it all better.
He and his cronies have been so helpful thus far. :rolleyes:
TR
TrapperFrank
11-24-2014, 21:38
The idiot protesters in Ferguson, MO get zero sympathy from me. Play stupid games get stupid prizes. Michael Brown was a thug ass punk and bully, plain and simple. At the age of 18 it would have never occurred to me to go toe to toe with a law enforcement officer. American society is in deep trouble.
Listening in on the police scanners is crazy...major news outlets reporting "isolated incidents." Right...
...what kind of backwoods troglodytes burn down a Little Caesars Pizza during time of crisis?
LITTLE.CAESARS.PIZZA.
WTF people...
A few slices of pepperoni and a cold beer would have made you feel better, but nooooooo you had to set the pizza parlor on fire
Streck-Fu
11-25-2014, 05:55
Grand jury had written testimony from a teenage witness:
Included in the grand jury material released tonight after the announcement that no charges would be filed in the Michael Brown killing is a handwritten witness account stating that the teenager charged at Officer Darren Wilson “like a football player. Head down.”
The unidentified witness wrote that the 18-year-old Brown “has his arms out with attitude,” while “The cop just stood there.” The witness added, “Dang if that kid didn’t start running right at the cop like a football player. Head down.”
The witness told of hearing “3 bangs,” but “the big kid wouldn’t stop.”
Never let facts get in the way of a good looting opportunity.
I am sure he will make it all better.
He and his cronies have been so helpful thus far. :rolleyes:
TR
Fox news had him on split screen blathering while they had the riots on the other half.
The Reaper
11-25-2014, 10:40
Three claims that bug me in this whole thing are the following:
He was shot ten times!
A person doesn't just drop after one shot, especially a huge person like Michael Brown who may well have been high at the time
He was unarmed!
Just because a person is unarmed doesn't mean that they can't do you serious harm. People get beaten to death every day in this country.
He was a teenager!
Teenagers commit plenty of violent crimes in this country
Teenagers are old enough to know the difference between right and wrong
Teenagers are old enough to fight for the country in war
"Teenager" is a standard made up in the 20th century. Prior to that, someone like Michael Brown would've been regarded as a young man
Just because someone is a teenager doesn't mean they can't harm you
Just because someone is a teenager doesn't mean that you can tell this by looking at them. You could be looking at someone aged sixteen to twenty-six and not be able to tell the difference with some of those guys. It depends. It happens with girls too ("But she swore to me she was legal!").
There is no standard number of times to shoot someone. If you had reason to use lethal force, you keep shooting until the threat is gone. Officer Wilson complied with his departmental policy on lethal force and the shooting was justified, as corroborated by the physical evidence.
We know now that Mr. Brown was unarmed, beyond the size differential. Officer Wilson did not know that, and in fact, from his statement, thought he might have been armed. If someone who is significantly larger than you is assaulting you, and trying to take your firearm away, you can apply lethal force. Your 120 pound wife, for example, is not required to submit to a beating from a 240 pound former football player and ignore the pistol in her purse just because the assailant is "unarmed."
You are correct, 18 is a young man. Old enough exercise the wisdom to vote, to buy a long gun, to enter into legal contracts. Used to be old enough to drink. Youth is not an excuse for assaulting a law enforcement officer. Or a store owner. Maybe someone should have taught that lesson to Mr. Brown before this happened.
TR
PedOncoDoc
11-25-2014, 11:19
I flipped back and forth between CNN and Fox News last night to see the difference in coverage. Beside the 2 second delay on CNN, coverage was similar until immediately after the prosecutor's statement. CNN's "journalists" responded to the decision with outrage, and Fox News provided a summary of the long-winded statement as well as potential next steps in the case (the Federal investigation, possibility of civil lawsuit, etc.). Even my wife felt that CNN was providing opinion (and drumming up trouble) in lieu of reporting.
The Reaper
11-25-2014, 13:30
I flipped back and forth between CNN and Fox News last night to see the difference in coverage. Beside the 2 second delay on CNN, coverage was similar until immediately after the prosecutor's statement. CNN's "journalists" responded to the decision with outrage, and Fox News provided a summary of the long-winded statement as well as potential next steps in the case (the Federal investigation, possibility of civil lawsuit, etc.). Even my wife felt that CNN was providing opinion (and drumming up trouble) in lieu of reporting.
That is the difference between reporting, and editorializing.
CNN forgot that lesson, and that is why they are in the situation they currently enjoy.
TR
Badger52
11-25-2014, 18:08
That is the difference between reporting, and editorializing.
CNN forgot that lesson, and that is why they are in the situation they currently enjoy.
TRDid you mean fighting with MSNBC to be at the bottom sir?
ABC News correspondent George Stepanopolus is airing a personal interview of the Ferguson police officer telling his side of what happened between him and Brown.
Richard
Appears like Michael Yon is giving some of his expertise on the Ferguson shooting.
http://bearingarms.com/professionals-dont-shoot-wound/