View Full Version : 777 Crash In Ukraine
Air Malaysia just had a 777 enroute from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur go down in Ukraine. :eek:
Accident or accidental shoot down?
Richard
mojaveman
07-17-2014, 10:04
I'll bet on a missile strike. ;)
Or just a shoot down. Anyone remember flight 007? good pretense for an invasion ie Ukraine is shooting down civilian jet liners and targeting civilians.
This was my first thought as well. Did Russia do it?
rubberneck
07-17-2014, 10:33
Reports are that it was hit by a BUK surface to air missile fired from inside Russian territory. This is going to get ugly really quickly if true. Prayers out to the deceased.
The Reaper
07-17-2014, 12:58
So my question is why some jack ass CEO made the decision to let civilian airline full of their passengers fly over a combat zone? I realize it would cost more in fuel to route around but anyone that didn't see this coming is an idiot.
It's the Malaysians.
I don't think any further explanation for the routing is required.
Remember, these are the people who let the rest of the world search for weeks for their lost airplane while they withheld information on its possible location.
As far as the SAM shooting, it was either the Ukranian government, which I would say is very unlikely, the Ukranian separatists, who initially claimed credit for the downing, and now deny it, or most likely, IMHO, the Russians shot it down in support of the "separatists".
A BUK requires armored TELs and radars to employ, it isn't a shoulder fired missile that might be hidden.
TR
So my question is why some jack ass CEO made the decision to let civilian airline full of their passengers fly over a combat zone? I realize it would cost more in fuel to route around but anyone that didn't see this coming is an idiot.
The airspace was not restricted at the time. The FIR has been closed now, though.
Pat
ddoering
07-17-2014, 14:40
This will certainly take the media's attention away from the IRS scandal......
Restricted or not enough stuff happening there common sense dictates avoid the area. I would like to go to Kiev and look around due to the history there. If given an all expense paid vacation I would avoid the place at the moment. Just poor SA but like was pointed out it was the Malaysians so enough said about common sense.
Oh I agree. But remember, those airways are a marketable commodity and the Ukranians have probably been busy promising that the airspace is safe. I doubt the Malaysians were the only airline using those airways.
Pat
This may be a negotiated rerouting of the air corridor over the Crimea which was closed in April and over the Middle East due to the on-going situation there.
http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/maps/Malaysia_Airlines
Only so much airspace out there and lots of potential hazards to navigate.
Richard
Roguish Lawyer
07-17-2014, 15:40
Jester says it was the Russians
https://twitter.com/th3j35t3r/status/489851558935265280
Old Dog New Trick
07-17-2014, 16:08
Only one question needs to be asked and answered.
Q. Who gains from this?
Certainly not the Pro-Russian rebels in Eastern Ukraine. Even if they recovered an SA-11 BUK from the Ukrainian Army why shoot down an unidentified high altitude aircraft? An "accident" like this kills any hope of success.
Ukraine - possible, it brings in NATO/EU/US support to win the conflict and secure the airspace to pound the crap out of the rebel forces without the continued Russian Air Force support. Anything more is an escalation of East/West involvement.
Russia - possible, it forces the airspace to move north and south back over Russian controlled airspace. Clearly a win-win for Russia. Otherwise it's a dumbass move to continue support for Eastern Ukraine - unlikely!
The party that benefits the most "if intentional" is Ukraine. They have the capability and the weapon system used. (They were also first to cast a stone and supposedly provide "proof" of pro-Russian separatist envolvment.)
My bet is on Ukraine to purposely shoot down this particular airline. Don't have look further than the passenger manifest and the owner of the plane.
JMO
The Reaper
07-17-2014, 16:18
Point of origin for the shot is deep in separatist controlled territory. Hard for the Ukraine military to move a convoy of armored launchers in there undetected. Especially when the separatists already shot down another aircraft at high altitude three days ago with the same missile system, and the media observed one being operated by separatists in the area of the shootdown earlier today.
I think the separatists got out of control, or the Russians supporting them did.
Or the POTUS needed a diversion from the illegal immigrants.
TR
Roguish Lawyer
07-17-2014, 16:26
Isn't it "separatists"? :munchin
Old Dog New Trick
07-17-2014, 16:52
TR - I hear you, but we are clearly only being fed what some people want to feed us. I'm really suspect of the Crysler building on the Potomic having launch coordinates within hours but then backtracking shortly after saying they are now not sure the missile came from Russian territory.
I would suspect that an SA-11/17 with a vertical 70k' ceiling (nearly twice what was needed) and radar controlled could go horizontal nearly 24-natical miles makes a big circle.
Again MOO but who gains and who loses?
Old Dog New Trick
07-17-2014, 17:00
Or the Russians blame Ukrainians and use it as a pretense for invasion
Or Russians use it as an excuse to show things are getting out of control and roll in to "keep the peace" like Christmas day 1979.
The problem being with today's technology not as easy to get away with that little trick and it did not go as planned.
All possible. But why cast doubt?
Why not shoot down an Aeroflot commercial plane? (Control all the variables!)
S**t can happen when everyone's on edge...even when you have the best equipment, solid C3I, and disciplined forces - look at what happened to the Iran Air Airbus A300. And I suspect C3I is a fluctuating concept along the somewhat nebulous Russian-Ukranian border regions right now.
Richard
Old Dog New Trick
07-17-2014, 17:18
S**t can happen when everyone's on edge...even when you have the best equipment, solid C3I, and disciplined forces - look at what happened to the Iran Air Airbus A300. And I suspect C3I is a fluctuating concept along the somewhat nebulous Russian-Ukranian border regions right now.
Richard
Richard, agreed! Chaos breeds confusion but this would be a colossal mistake and a tactical blunder to launch a golden BB into a commercial air cooridor in hopes of downing a legitimate military target.
I remember the IranAir shoot down and whether it was intentional by Iran or not to provoke the US Navy, the results and world opinion was accomplished.
How do you change world opinion? Shoot down a commercial airplane filled with kids on holiday.
Detonics
07-17-2014, 17:27
I'll bet on a missile strike. ;)
Nah, it'll turn out to be wires arcing in the fuel cell....:rolleyes:
S**t can happen when everyone's on edge...even when you have the best equipment, solid C3I, and disciplined forces - look at what happened to the Iran Air Airbus A300. And I suspect C3I is a fluctuating concept along the somewhat nebulous Russian-Ukranian border regions right now.
Richard
The C3I question is important to weigh when trying to determine who made the decisions to fire on the aircraft. C2 in that environment is probably very centralized, and because of that its hard to imagine that a BUK SAM resource would be managed by 4 brigand separatists. Someone well above the paygrade in that SAM vehicle was probably the person who made the call. The more sophisticated C2 of Russia (or RU supported forward deployed forces) IMHO is more suspect.
This is what the Ukranian Security Services are offering in their social media releases - "Kazaks from the Chernukhino checkpoint".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnuHxAR01Jo
Richard
Nah, it'll turn out to be wires arcing in the fuel cell....:rolleyes:
Today is the 18th anniversary of that event.
BTW, I believe the NTSB got it right.
Pat
I think the separatists got out of control, or the Russians supporting them did.
Or the POTUS needed a diversion from the illegal immigrants.
TR
TR Sir,
Your words speak volumes towards the exact same sentiment around here from folks...
Very well said IMHO. It is a tragedy.
Holly
Ambush Master
07-17-2014, 18:39
A BUK requires armored TELs and radars to employ, it isn't a shoulder fired missile that might be hidden.
TR
A Man-Pad can't even get a "Target-Lock" on something above 10K' Max, much less have enough Propellant to boost it that far. To get that high, it has to be the size of a Telephone Pole!!
The Reaper
07-17-2014, 19:57
I wonder if President Obama is happy with his buddy Vlad right now:
"This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."
Flexible enough to keep on his fundraising tour and ignore the State sanctioned murders of nearly 300 people?
The ends justify the means, eh tovarisch?
TR
I wonder if President Obama is happy with his buddy Vlad right now:
"This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."
Flexible enough to keep on his fundraising tour and ignore the State sanctioned murders of nearly 300 people?
The ends justify the means, eh tovarisch?
TR
Oh Barry's probably doing a serious "Happy Dance" over this.
Takes the focus off his latest scandal.
Which one is it again ????
Oh yeah ... something about illegal immigrants flooding/invading our southern boarder.
Tree Potato
07-17-2014, 22:01
So my question is why some jack ass CEO made the decision to let civilian airline full of their passengers fly over a combat zone? I realize it would cost more in fuel to route around but anyone that didn't see this coming is an idiot.
Granted, it was a Malaysian flight, but... our FAA advised US carriers to exercise extreme caution in the area back in April; the NOTAM is valid until April 2015.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ifim/us_restrictions/media/2014_0214_04-29_FINAL_FDC_NOTAM4-7667_UKRAINE_SFAR.pdf
F. ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS (NOT INCLUDED IN SFAR 113).
U.S. OPERATORS AND AIRMEN FLYING INTO, OUT OF, WITHIN, OR TRANSITING
LVOV (UKLV), KYIV(UKBV), DNEPROPETROVSK (UKDV), AND ODESSA (UKOV)
FIRS, AS WELL AS AIRSPACE IN THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR THAT IS OUTSIDE
THE LATERAL LIMITS OF SFAR 113 AIRSPACE DESCRIBED ABOVE, MUST
REVIEW CURRENT SECURITY/THREAT INFORMATION AND NOTAMS; COMPLY
WITH ALL APPLICABLE FAA REGULATIONS, OPERATIONS SPECIFICATIONS,
MANAGEMENT SPECIFICATIONS, AND LETTERS OF AUTHORIZATION,
INCLUDING UPDATING B450; AND EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION DUE TO THE
CONTINUING POTENTIAL FOR INSTABILITY. U.S. OPERATORS MUST REPORT
SAFETY AND/OR SECURITY INCIDENTS TO THE FAA
The corridor being used by the Malaysian Airlines flight was outside the warning areas and 15 of 16 East Asian airlines were currently using it. Not now.
http://news.yahoo.com/why-airlines-didnt-avoid-risky-ukraine-airspace-070232868--finance.html
Richard
Snaquebite
07-18-2014, 09:09
POTUS: Hey Vlad...I need some help. They're beating me up over this immigration problem and all kinds of other things. Think you can help me out?
PUTIN: Sure...Think a plane being shot down will create enough diversion? We can talk about what you will owe me later.
POTUS: Damn....Great idea...get back to me when you figure out what you need in return.
1stindoor
07-18-2014, 10:07
Oh Barry's probably doing a serious "Happy Dance" over this.
Takes the focus off his latest scandal.
Which one is it again ????
Oh yeah ... something about illegal immigrants flooding/invading our southern boarder.
You're close...
It was actually illegal immigrants flooding the IRS computers with claims for VA benefits for free healthcare being denied due to racism by conservative based TEA Party organizations. :D
POTUS: Hey Vlad...I need some help. They're beating me up over this immigration problem and all kinds of other things. Think you can help me out?
PUTIN: Sure...Think a plane being shot down will create enough diversion? We can talk about what you will owe me later.
POTUS: Damn....Great idea...get back to me when you figure out what you need in return.
*ring ring*
PUTIN: Yo! Bama.. Got it. Teach me everything you know about communism.
The POTUS has vowed to get to the bottom of this. I do not know when he is going to find the time, he has such a long list of things to get to the bottom of.
ddoering
07-18-2014, 13:03
He can put the AG on it. He's not doing anything.
The POTUS has vowed to get to the bottom of this. I do not know when he is going to find the time, he has such a long list of things to get to the bottom of.
Why get involved at all. Other than the manufacturer being a US corporation (and it is clearly not their fault), I don't see what our interest is. Unless we have some agreement/treaty with Malaysia that dictates that we should.
Pat
The Reaper
07-18-2014, 17:08
I suspect that the "separatists"/ Russians whose names are on the voice intercepts will disappear in the next few days, as will the crew that fired the missile.
Putin will leave no witnesses to his involvement.
Watch and see.
TR
I suspect that the "separatists"/ Russians whose names are on the voice intercepts will disappear in the next few days, as will the crew that fired the missile.
Putin will leave no witnesses to his involvement.
Watch and see.
TR
According to the evening news, their commander, Igor the Rifleman, has already vanished and the assumed launcher system minus 2 missiles was video'd on a HET enroute back to Russia today.
As for the "separatists"...Russia's version of Black Water...
ABC News consultant Richard Clarke, a former White House counter-terrorism advisor, said that while there are certainly many Ukrainians fighting in the rebel movement, many of the “core” group of militants are actually former soldiers from Russia. By using those men, Clarke said, the Russian government maintains “deniability.”
“They are soldiers of fortune, Rambo types who have fought in Russian wars,” Clarke said. “They are people in close contact with the Russian security services, people who have apartments and homes in Moscow, and people who are probably being paid by Russian security services to be the military heart and core of the rebels… These are the dogs of war.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/pro-russian-rebels-implicated-missile-strike-airliner-ukraine/story?id=24627839
And once upon a time there were 'Brandenburgers"...
Richard
Why get involved at all. Other than the manufacturer being a US corporation (and it is clearly not their fault), I don't see what our interest is. Unless we have some agreement/treaty with Malaysia that dictates that we should.
Pat
Because there was an American citizen on board? To f*** with Russia? Considering this was a terrorist act, if we needed an excuse this would be it
ddoering
07-20-2014, 14:08
An excuse to do what? We don't have the forces to fight them nor a leader with nuts large enough to try.
Mr Furious
07-20-2014, 14:37
One difference between this one and our screw up with the Airbus, is that Russia can blame non-state actors and no one will put their feet to the fire over it. Could be wrong, but I just don’t see them admitting to anything and paying a hefty settlement to the families of the deceased, like we had to.
A couple hours into the flight cruising at 33,000 feet and 500 mph, I’d probably have the seat reclined and ear buds in listening to music and sipping on a drink. Those poor souls never saw it coming. RIP.
The Reaper
07-20-2014, 17:08
Could be wrong, but I just don’t see them admitting to anything and paying a hefty settlement to the families of the deceased, like we had to.
Who will pay?
The separatists?
The Russians?
I don't think Vlad is going to do that.
TR
Vlad the Puta is still pissed that he was demoted from a prestigious position as a Major in the KGB to President of Russia, that the USSR lost the "Cold War" and Drago lost to Rocky Balboa, and that he's now losing this media campaign in the international marketplace at a time he can't economically afford it.
It's been a tough couple of decades for the guy - he's already lost his shirt and the fish still aren't taking his bait.
Richard
Mr Furious
07-20-2014, 17:40
...I don't think Vlad is going to do that.
Agree…Vlad will admit to nothing and pay nothing, and nobody is going to hold them accountable either. Watching the talking heads running with the separatist as the responsible party is IMHO, ridiculous. Vlad handing over a multi-million dollar SAM system and support package that goes along with it to a separatists off the street to take out a plane flying at 33,000’AGL at 475kts with no on-site “advise and assistance” is a long stretch. It’s about as believable as vaporizing IRS emails, but I digress. Heck, we send our newbie 14T’s to a 13-week AIT before they get to ride along in the trucks and learn their jobs to take out something at that altitude.
On a separate note – looks like planes are still diverting around Ukraine and might be for a while: http://www.flightradar24.com/53.38,24.9/4
The Reaper
07-20-2014, 17:48
Agree…Vlad will admit to nothing and pay nothing, and nobody is going to hold them accountable either. Watching the talking heads running with the separatist as the responsible party is IMHO, ridiculous. Vlad handing over a multi-million dollar SAM system and support package that goes along with it to a separatists off the street to take out a plane flying at 33,000’AGL at 475kts with no on-site “advise and assistance” is a long stretch. It’s about as believable as vaporizing IRS emails, but I digress. Heck, we send our newbie 14T’s to a 13-week AIT before they get to ride along in the trucks and learn their jobs to take out something at that altitude.
On a separate note – looks like planes are still diverting around Ukraine and might be for a while: http://www.flightradar24.com/53.38,24.9/4
Hey, it was a loaner.
What did you expect? :D
TR
Trapper John
07-20-2014, 18:01
Vlad the Puta is still pissed that he was demoted from a prestigious position as a Major in the KGB to President of Russia, that the USSR lost the "Cold War" and Drago lost to Rocky Balboa, and that he's now losing this media campaign in the international marketplace at a time he can't economically afford it.
It's been a tough couple of decades for the guy - he's already lost his shirt and the fish still aren't taking his bait.
Richard
That's hilarious. :D
Mr Furious
07-20-2014, 18:04
Hey, it was a loaner.
What did you expect? :D
TR
lol
...he's already lost his shirt...
Richard
Damn! He and I are about the same size, and I'm older, but he makes me look in pretty damn good shape. :D I guess the extra blubber is for the harsh Russian winters. ;)
Pat
The Reaper
07-20-2014, 18:13
Damn! He and I are about the same size, and I'm older, but he makes me look in pretty damn good shape. :D I guess the extra blubber is for the harsh Russian winters. ;)
Pat
See if you can kill 298 people and get away with it.
TR
Why haven't we heard the ATC recordings yet or seen the filed Flight Plan. How did the aircraft end up in hostile airspace.
There is speculation that the pilot requested the diversion. It's also possible that ATC directed him into that airspace. The first would back up my mistrust of the earlier MH Trip-7 disappearance. The latter would suggest that the Ukrainians were looking for a sacrificial lamb.
Recovering MH-17's FDR will show nothing worthwhile and the CVR may not be needed if the ATC recording are secured. The CVR, at best, will have a whole lot of expletives, pleadings, or farewells. Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Pat
Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Zebras.
I'm hearing horses.
Richard
Zebras.
I'm hearing horses.
Richard
An investigator should not even be hearing crickets. ;) But I ain't one. :D I do not believe in coincidence either, though.
Pat
David Cameron to Vladimir Putin: Drop rebels
By: Associated Press
July 20, 2014 01:18 PM EDT
LONDON — British Prime Minister David Cameron demanded Sunday that Russia end its support for the rebels in Ukraine, arguing that Russia’s policies destabilized the country and created the conditions that appear to have led to the downing of Malaysian Airways Flight 17.
In an unusual front-page op-ed in the Sunday Times, Cameron says there is growing evidence that separatist rebels, backed by Russia, shot down the aircraft, killing 298 people.
“If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them,” Cameron wrote.
The British leader said that if Russian President Vladimir Putin stopped supporting the rebels then the crisis in Ukraine could be brought to an end.
“If President Putin does not change his approach to Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change our approach to Russia,” he wrote
Views in London are hardening on Ukraine amid anger over access at the crash site. Images from the site have shown rebels picking through the wreckage and personal belongings of victims.
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond told the BBC that Putin could “snap his fingers” to allow a proper investigation.
“The eyes of the world are on Vladimir Putin and what we are seeing from the Russians is obfuscation and obstruction at the moment,” Hammond said.
Cameron also took European leaders to task for vacillating on Ukraine. While some countries have pushed for tough action against Russia, others have tried to contain the crisis.
“In Europe we should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries,” he wrote. “We should not need reminding of the consequences of letting the doctrine of `might is right’ prevail.”
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=2F3D671E-2B06-4520-A0E8-69C3FA4E146C
Old Dog New Trick
07-21-2014, 11:52
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=2F3D671E-2B06-4520-A0E8-69C3FA4E146C
Preface - I am in no way supporting Russia.
But, the more I read from Cameron and our fearless leader touting their decisive leadership around the world. It makes me wonder what fabrications and obfuscating the "West" would be making if a similar situation takes place over say Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan.
“If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilizing a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them,” Cameron wrote.
Pot meet Kettle! :rolleyes:
Old Dog New Trick
07-21-2014, 12:00
Why haven't we heard the ATC recordings yet or seen the filed Flight Plan. How did the aircraft end up in hostile airspace.
There is speculation that the pilot requested the diversion. It's also possible that ATC directed him into that airspace. The first would back up my mistrust of the earlier MH Trip-7 disappearance. The latter would suggest that the Ukrainians were looking for a sacrificial lamb.
Recovering MH-17's FDR will show nothing worthwhile and the CVR may not be needed if the ATC recording are secured. The CVR, at best, will have a whole lot of expletives, pleadings, or farewells. Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Pat
My thoughts too. And if there is proof that Ukraine ATC redirected the flight, I believe crickets is all that we will hear. But I find that hard to believe in this day and age of digital recordings.
The truth will come out by one means or another...same as if the SA-11 was battlefield recovery (i.e., Ukrainian) or supplied directly by the Russians (or trained there of.)
Maybe just an example of incredibly bad luck complicated by tremendous stupidity!
Utah Bob
07-21-2014, 12:51
Vlad the Puta is still pissed that he was demoted from a prestigious position as a Major in the KGB to President of Russia, that the USSR lost the "Cold War" and Drago lost to Rocky Balboa, and that he's now losing this media campaign in the international marketplace at a time he can't economically afford it.
It's been a tough couple of decades for the guy - he's already lost his shirt and the fish still aren't taking his bait.
Richard
He's hot! :D
Dean Jarvis
07-21-2014, 14:38
Why haven't we heard the ATC recordings yet or seen the filed Flight Plan. How did the aircraft end up in hostile airspace.
There is speculation that the pilot requested the diversion. It's also possible that ATC directed him into that airspace. The first would back up my mistrust of the earlier MH Trip-7 disappearance. The latter would suggest that the Ukrainians were looking for a sacrificial lamb.
Recovering MH-17's FDR will show nothing worthwhile and the CVR may not be needed if the ATC recording are secured. The CVR, at best, will have a whole lot of expletives, pleadings, or farewells. Although, an Allāhu Akbar might be telling.
Pat
Vlad's already got his hands on that and turned it over to Louis Lerner's I.T. department :munchin
The Reaper
07-21-2014, 14:43
Vlad's already got his hands on that and turned it over to Louis Lerner's I.T. department :munchin
And AG Holder says he is looking into it.
He is putting the ATF on the case, along with some underemployed ICE agents.
TR
PedOncoDoc
07-21-2014, 14:53
And AG Holder says he is looking into it.
He is putting the ATF on the case, along with some underemployed ICE agents.
TR
All this promptly after first hearing about it on the news....
Nonstop24/7
07-21-2014, 16:18
The poor souls onboard sure had a long ride down.
check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
17-JUL-2014 - Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER accident
A Boeing 777-200 passenger plane, operating Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, crashed in the Ukraine, east of Donetsk. All 298 on board are feared dead. The Ukraine Interior Ministry Adviser stated that the airplane was shot down. Flight MH17 departed the gate at Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport, the Netherlands at 12:14 hours local time, bound for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. It was airborne at 12:30 (10:30 UTC) from runway 36C and reached a cruising altitude of FL310 at 12:53 (10:53 UTC). Ninety minutes into the flight, at 12:01 UTC and just prior to entering Ukrainian airspace, the flight climbed to FL330. This altitude was maintained until last contact by ADS-B receivers of flight tracking websites, about 13:19 UTC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
I'm extremely surprised to see the right wing still attached. It might have been flyable if the cockpit crew were not incapacitated unless the fly-by-wire system was destroyed somehow.
Pat
The Reaper
07-21-2014, 17:16
The poor souls onboard sure had a long ride down.
check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
17-JUL-2014 - Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER accident
A Boeing 777-200 passenger plane, operating Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, crashed in the Ukraine, east of Donetsk. All 298 on board are feared dead. The Ukraine Interior Ministry Adviser stated that the airplane was shot down. Flight MH17 departed the gate at Amsterdam-Schiphol Airport, the Netherlands at 12:14 hours local time, bound for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. It was airborne at 12:30 (10:30 UTC) from runway 36C and reached a cruising altitude of FL310 at 12:53 (10:53 UTC). Ninety minutes into the flight, at 12:01 UTC and just prior to entering Ukrainian airspace, the flight climbed to FL330. This altitude was maintained until last contact by ADS-B receivers of flight tracking websites, about 13:19 UTC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
The videos are of the AN-30 shot down on 14 July, not Malaysian Air MH-17.
Time of useful consciousness is very brief at that altitude. Most were probably out long before impact.
The fragmentation of the warhead likely shredded the engine, wing (causing the fuel leak and fire), and vented the fuselage in hundreds of places.
TR
mark46th
07-21-2014, 18:03
The older SAM's from the Vietnam Era used bundles of rods scattered by the warhead. Is this style still used?
Nonstop24/7
07-22-2014, 16:38
TR, I stand corrected! The video was sent to me on email and stated that it was MH17.
NS
The older SAM's from the Vietnam Era used bundles of rods scattered by the warhead. Is this style still used?
Yes sir. Continuous-rod warheads go way back in the history of naval and landbased SAMs, and are still very effective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead
The lines are really starting to get confusing.
Pro-Russia rebels operating in eastern Ukraine downed another two Su-25 fighter-bombers on Wednesday afternoon near the village of Dmytrivk just 25 miles from the crash site of the MH17 passenger jet, the country’s Defense Minister said.
A video posted to the Twitter account of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic shows heavily-armed men clad in helmets and military fatigues picking their way through burning debris at the alleged crash site as a series of explosions emanate from the wreckage. The footage has not been verified.
...
Ukraine’s national security spokesperson Andriy Lysenko told reporters that the fighter jets were returning from an airstrike mission on rebel positions when they were targeted by surface-to-air missiles.
Earlier in the day a VICE News reporter heard several loud explosions in the area followed by the Su-25 bomber planes roaring overhead as plumes of black smoke rose on the horizon.
According to Lysenko, “preliminary investigations” have shown that the “missile launch was carried out from the territory of the Russian Federation” because the height at which the planes were flying —17,000 feet — could not be hit by the MANPAD anti-aircraft weaponry possessed by the rebels.
Source (https://news.vice.com/article/rebels-down-two-fighter-bombers-in-eastern-ukraine)
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest." - Sir Winston Churchill in 1939
It’s not just about the Malaysian flight. Russians are living in an alternate reality.
By Mark Adomanis July 24 at 6:00 AM
Mark Adomanis specializes in Russian economics and demographics.
MOSCOW—Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 has already shined a spotlight on the Russian public’s somewhat, um, unique views. Russian media are running with conspiracy theories: that MH17 was shot down by NATO to spark a conflict with Russia, that MH17 wasn’t full of innocent civilians but week-old corpses, or that MH17 was shot down because it was mistaken for Vladimir Putin’s personal jet (as if anti-aircraft missiles weren’t aimed with radar but with a really large pair of binoculars). The only theory missing is the right one: that Russian-backed separatists accidentally shot down the plane when they mistook it for a Ukrainian military transport.
This may seem like the entertaining sideshow to a tragedy, but actually it’s just a window into a hugely dangerous problem. I recently moved to Moscow, and it’s hard to miss the extent to which Russian society exists in an alternate universe. Even well-educated, sophisticated people who have traveled widely in Europe and North America will frequently voice opinions that, in an American context, would place them alongside people wearing tinfoil hats. Russia is not living in the reality-based community.
One particularly easy and glaring example is Russian TV reporters, filing from Eastern Ukraine, who say they are reporting from the “Lugansk People’s Republic” or the “Donetsk People’s Republic.” Regardless of your views on the worsening civil war in Ukraine, which is not a neat story of black and white or right and wrong, it is obvious that these republics are almost entirely fictitious and that their “territory” is largely confined to a handful of government buildings. Despite their extremely dubious claims to legitimacy, the non-existent states are treated with deadly earnestness by both the state media and large numbers of ordinary Russians. (Ukraine has been a problem for Russian media ever since protests there began at the end of 2013.)
On almost any other issue you can think of, Russian views differ radically from the consensus here in America. Russians have extremely different opinions about the conflict in Syria, viewing the war in that unlucky country not as a brave struggle for freedom but as a chaotic war of all against all. They have different views about the war in Libya, where they see the overthrow of Gaddafi not as a new beginning but as the start of chaos and disorder. They have different views about 9/11, with shockingly large numbers of Russians supporting “alternate” explanations of one of history’s most carefully studied and well-documented terrorist attacks. (I was recently asked what “theory” of the attacks I supported only to be told that it was “my opinion” after I noted that al-Qaeda was clearly and obviously responsible.) Even something as seemingly straightforward and non-political as a meteor strike attracted a range of bizarre theories and pseudo-scientific “explanations” like the onset of an alien invasion or the testing of a new American super weapon. These wacky ideas (“the aliens are attacking Siberia!” “The grand masons are responsible for 9/11!”) would be extremely funny if they didn’t represent such a tragic deficit of reason.
I’ve asked people about these notions. Particularly if they’re a bit bashful about the position they’re about to advocate, Russians will often highlight their country’s long track record of superstition and its history as a rural, peasant society. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard “we’re a superstitious people” as an explanation for some kind of seemingly nonsensical position. In contrast to Western Europe, Russia really did urbanize and become literate much later. This delayed development has left a lasting impression on popular consciousness and public attitudes.
But while there is clearly some truth to the idea that Russia’s unique cultural history renders it susceptible to conspiracies, explanations centered on the “Russian soul” strike me as a cop-out. Far more important than the legacy of peasant life or any kind of natural penchant for mysteriousness and inscrutability is the Soviet legacy of propaganda. The older generations here all grew up in an environment in which the government systematically manipulated information on a scale that is hard to fathom. Although you might expect that this would engender a healthy skepticism, it appears to have created an unhealthy over-reaction. Russians don’t just doubt the “official line.” Several expats here, like me, have observed that they seem to doubt everything.
Like many Americans, I used to think that these differences would recede with time, and that, as they traveled the world, got jobs, and got rich, Russians would eventually start to think more and more like us. After Ukraine and the Malaysia Airlines crash, I’m a lot less optimistic. Despite ditching communism and its call to world revolution, Russia appears to becoming more, not less, different from the United States. It doesn’t just have its own system; it now has its own facts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/24/its-not-just-about-the-malaysian-flight-russians-are-living-in-an-alternate-reality/
Tree Potato
07-25-2014, 00:02
The FAA issued a NOTAM to prohibit US carriers from flying over the area now.
Due to recent events, this NOTAM prohibits all flight operations by US ooperators within the Simferopol (UKFV) and Dnepropetrovsk (UKDV) FIRS.
Special Notice to Airman (FDC_NOTAM) 4-2182 UKRAINE AIRSPACE PROHIBITION.pdf
http://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/USDHSCIKR/2014/07/24/file_attachments/310412/Special%2BNotice%2Bto%2BAirman%2B%2528FDC_NOTAM%25 29%2B4-2182%2BUKRAINE%2BAIRSPACE%2BPROHIBITION.pdf
Repost from neighbour thread
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=558210#post558210
Think there is the better place to post it.
Maybe somebody will be interested in the opinion of Donbass civilians about who's killing them. English subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/NE18iPQ1Euk Hard. Very 18+.
Very typical episode of air strike on dwelling houses in Snizhne city, which occurred on the eve of the crash with Boeing, in almost the same area. It strongly motivates to shoot down any aircraft in the sky, if there is a technical possibility, and if to assume that Boeing was shot down by rebels.
Probably this film will soon disappear from YouTube.
Putin is clearly a turd, but the devil we know?
Is Putin Worse Than Stalin?
by Patrick J. Buchanan, July 25, 2014
In 1933, the Holodomor was playing out in Ukraine. After the “kulaks,” the independent farmers, had been liquidated in the forced collectivization of Soviet agriculture, a genocidal famine was imposed on Ukraine through seizure of her food production. Estimates of the dead range from two to nine million souls.
Walter Duranty of the New York Times, who called reports of the famine “malignant propaganda,” won a Pulitzer for his mendacity.
In November 1933, during the Holodomor, the greatest liberal of them all, FDR, invited Foreign Minister Maxim Litvinov to receive official U.S. recognition of his master Stalin’s murderous regime.
On August 1, 1991, just four months before Ukraine declared its independence of Russia, George H. W. Bush warned Kiev’s legislature:
“Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred.”
In short, Ukraine’s independence was never part of America’s agenda. From 1933 to 1991, it was never a U.S. vital interest. Bush I was against it.
When then did this issue of whose flag flies over Donetsk or Crimea become so crucial that we would arm Ukrainians to fight Russian-backed rebels and consider giving a NATO war guarantee to Kiev, potentially bringing us to war with a nuclear-armed Russia?
From FDR on, U.S. presidents have felt that America could not remain isolated from the rulers of the world’s largest nation.
Ike invited Khrushchev to tour the USA after he had drowned the Hungarian Revolution in blood. After Khrushchev put missiles in Cuba, JFK was soon calling for a new detente at American University.
Within weeks of Warsaw Pact armies crushing the Prague Spring in August 1968, LBJ was seeking a summit with Premier Alexei Kosygin.
After excoriating Moscow for the downing of KAL 007 in 1983, that old Cold Warrior Ronald Reagan was fishing for a summit meeting.
The point: Every president from FDR through George H. W. Bush, even after collisions with Moscow far more serious than this clash over Ukraine, sought to re-engage the men in the Kremlin.
Whatever we thought of the Soviet dictators who blockaded Berlin, enslaved Eastern Europe, put rockets in Cuba and armed Arabs to attack Israel, Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush 1 all sought to engage Russia’s rulers.
Avoidance of a catastrophic war demanded engagement.
How then can we explain the clamor of today’s U.S. foreign policy elite to confront, isolate, and cripple Russia, and make of Putin a moral and political leper with whom honorable statesmen can never deal?
What has Putin done to rival the forced famine in Ukraine that starved to death millions, the slaughter of the Hungarian rebels or the Warsaw Pact’s crushing of Czechoslovakia?
In Ukraine, Putin responded to a U.S.-backed coup, which ousted a democratically elected political ally of Russia, with a bloodless seizure of the pro-Russian Crimea where Moscow has berthed its Black Sea fleet since the 18th century. This is routine Big Power geopolitics.
And though Putin put an army on Ukraine’s border, he did not order it to invade or occupy Luhansk or Donetsk. Does this really look like a drive to reassemble either the Russian Empire of the Romanovs or the Soviet Empire of Stalin that reached to the Elbe?
As for the downing of the Malaysian airliner, Putin did not order that. Sen. John Cornyn says U.S. intelligence has not yet provided any “smoking gun” that ties the missile-firing to Russia.
Intel intercepts seem to indicate that Ukrainian rebels thought they had hit an Antonov military transport plane.
Yet, today, the leading foreign policy voice of the Republican Party, Sen. John McCain, calls Obama’s White House “cowardly” for not arming the Ukrainians to fight the Russian-backed separatists.
But suppose Putin responded to the arrival of U.S. weapons in Kiev by occupying Eastern Ukraine. What would we do then?
John Bolton has the answer: Bring Ukraine into NATO.
Translation: The U.S. and NATO should go to war with Russia, if necessary, over Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea, though no U.S. president has ever thought Ukraine itself was worth a war with Russia.
What motivates Putin seems simple and understandable. He wants the respect due a world power. He sees himself as protector of the Russians left behind in his “near abroad.” He relishes playing Big Power politics. History is full of such men.
He allows U.S. overflights to Afghanistan, cooperates in the P5+1 on Iran, helped us rid Syria of chemical weapons, launches our astronauts into orbit, collaborates in the war on terror and disagrees on Crimea and Syria.
But what motivates those on our side who seek every opportunity to restart the Cold War?
Is it not a desperate desire to appear once again Churchillian, once again heroic, once again relevant, as they saw themselves in the Cold War that ended so long ago?
Who is the real problem here?
http://townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/2014/07/25/is-putin-worse-than-stalin-n1865666
Mr Furious
07-30-2014, 22:29
Soldiers and social media screw ups, Russian style - taking Instagram selfies from your BUK while on “exercises.” Ouch.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/does-this-soldiers-instagram-account-prove-russia-is-covertl
“A Russian soldier has posted pictures to Instagram that show him operating military equipment inside Ukraine, including manning a missile launcher system of the type used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.”
God's speed, Team.
:lifter
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-team-idUSKBN0G51XF20140805
(Reuters) - A small U.S. military team has arrived in Kiev to help investigate the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17, the United States said on Tuesday, with more direct training support for Ukraine also possible.
The team of about 10 people - which includes special operations, logistics, communications and air planning personnel - will operate from the capital of Kiev and will not visit the crash site in the conflict area of eastern Ukraine.
Last week, the Pentagon announced it would notify Congress of plans to mount a $19 million program to train several units of Ukraine's National Guard in "internal defense". The request has not yet been approved by legislators.
Washington has a long-running military training relationship with Ukraine but has not sent service personnel to the country aside from its regular embassy presence since the annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region by Russia in March.
U.S. European Command spokesman U.S. Navy Captain Gregory Hicks said the survey and assessment team would advise the U.S. Embassy in Kiev over possible U.S. support to the Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia in the MH17 investigation and recovery.
"The team would work in coordination with and support the FBI team already on the ground," he said. "They will not participate in actual recovery operations. The team will be in Kiev for as long as required in support of the overall U.S. contribution to the investigation."
The U.S. believes the Malaysian Boeing 777 was brought down by a Russian-supplied SA-11 missile in the hands of pro-Russian separatists, a charge both Moscow and the rebels deny.
The crash killed 298 passengers and crew, mostly Dutch, Australian and Malaysian.
The U.S. military training program - expected to begin next year providing congressional approval is forthcoming - effectively marks the resumption of a long-running training deal with Ukraine.
It will be conducted in western Ukraine far from the front line, officials say. Training itself will be conducted by the U.S. Army as well as the California National Guard, spokesman Admiral John Kirby said on Friday.
Kirby said the training will take place at Ukraine's international peacekeeping and security center where the U.S. has previously taken part in multilateral military exercises.
(Reporting by Peter Apps; Additional reporting by Missy Ryan, Editing by Bernard Orr)