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View Full Version : "SOF prefers 9mm over .45


Chaplain Scott
07-14-2014, 18:34
http://kitup.military.com/2014/07/sof-prefers-9mm-45-caliber.html


Thoughts? Comments??

Team Sergeant
07-14-2014, 19:25
I've never heard of Matthew Cox.

I seriously doubt SOF likes using 9mm, they are using it in different platforms because its the only ammo they can get.

Matthew Cox is making me laugh when he states "Delta Force" is having problems because the larger calibers are wearing out guns.... please stop making me laugh..... Delta Force is a unit with a blank check for anything/everything.

Matthew Cox who are you?

chance
07-14-2014, 19:47
TS,
Anyone that refers to the US Military's most elite tier 1 unit as "Delta Force" lost my attention at Delta Force.

Chaplain Scott
07-14-2014, 20:19
TS:

I totally get that the author is a dufus....

But still curious what the preferred handgun caliber is for duty weapons by the PS on the forum (not trying to start a caliber war) :munchin

MtnGoat
07-14-2014, 21:37
Sorry I can tell most right now are carrying .40, not even a .45. But I would say that most don't like 9mm and would go with the .45 between the two.

Yes this guy is an DUFUS.

fox33c1
07-17-2014, 15:11
I would say that if given the choice that caliber might even take a back seat to the platform. I for one am not a fan of the M9 in any way shape or form. That if all of a sudden given the opportunity for a 9mm Glock 17 or 19 vs. a 45ACP 92F clone. I would pick the 17 or 19, couple this with better bullets (147gr TAPs) to me the 9mm glock wins hands down. (so I can see if having this conversation and it followed that path how one could draw the conclusion)

Lethality is directly related to shot placement, in my civilian job I have seen a patient DRT from one .22LR off the left margin of the sternum in the 5th ICS. So you could say that follow on shots from a rack grade 9mm would be easier than a rack grade 45 acp platform.

But if USSOCOM said hey what do you want, no restrictions, blank check. It's going to be a 45 ACP, and very likely a wilson combat at that.

Brush Okie
07-17-2014, 15:13
I would say that if given the choice that caliber might even take a back seat to the platform. I for one am not a fan of the M9 in any way shape or form. That if all of a sudden given the opportunity for a 9mm Glock 17 or 19 vs. a 45ACP 92F clone. I would pick the 17 or 19, couple this with better bullets (147gr TAPs) to me the 9mm glock wins hands down. (so I can see if having this conversation and it followed that path how one could draw the conclusion)

Lethality is directly related to shot placement, in my civilian job I have seen a patient DRT from one .22LR off the left margin of the sternum in the 5th ICS. So you could say that follow on shots from a rack grade 9mm would be easier than a rack grade 45 acp platform.

But if USSOCOM said hey what do you want, no restrictions, blank check. It's going to be a 45 ACP, and very likely a wilson combat at that.

.22 is deadly as hell. but the point is this author is full of shit and not know what he is talking about.

The Reaper
07-17-2014, 16:25
I would pick the 17 or 19, couple this with better bullets (147gr TAPs) to me the 9mm glock wins hands down.

Very few military units will be using anything other than NATO spec Ball ammo, regardless of the caliber.

TR

UWOA
07-17-2014, 18:17
TS:

But still curious what the preferred handgun caliber is for duty weapons by the PS on the forum (not trying to start a caliber war) :munchin

What it comes down to, is not the ammo, it's shot placement, shot placement, shot placement ....

just my $ .02.

.

Ambush Master
07-17-2014, 22:24
What it comes down to, is not the ammo, it's shot placement, shot placement, shot placement ....

just my $ .02.

.

I concur!! I carried a Hi-Power and shot numerous folks with it!! Never had ONE get back up!!

Later
Martin

MR2
07-17-2014, 23:32
I concur!! I carried a Hi-Power and shot numerous folks with it!! Never had ONE get back up!!

Later
Martin

Those were the days...

Brush Okie
07-17-2014, 23:53
I concur!! I carried a Hi-Power and shot numerous folks with it!! Never had ONE get back up!!

Later
Martin

So you are saying the .45 is better then right :p

I have killed more with a .22 lr than any other caliber including the biggest mtn lion I ever saw with a .22 pistol. While I prefer the 45 for many reasons I know a 9mm or 22 is deadly if shot is placed properly. About the only caliber that is worthless is the 25 acp . Seen a guy shoot himself in the head twice and neither penetrated the skull just stopped against it and he walked into the hospital.

SFgrunt
07-18-2014, 15:53
the only caliber that is worthless is the 25 acp . Seen a guy shoot himself in the head twice and neither penetrated the skull just stopped against it and he walked into the hospital.

Sounds like that was one hell of a kegger.

tom kelly
07-18-2014, 16:12
The cost of the ammo 9mm & .45 ACP would not be a factor in choosing a weapon platform for SOF.... Tom Kelly

Stras
07-18-2014, 16:32
I would say that if given the choice that caliber might even take a back seat to the platform. I for one am not a fan of the M9 in any way shape or form. That if all of a sudden given the opportunity for a 9mm Glock 17 or 19 vs. a 45ACP 92F clone. I would pick the 17 or 19, couple this with better bullets (147gr TAPs) to me the 9mm glock wins hands down. (so I can see if having this conversation and it followed that path how one could draw the conclusion)

Lethality is directly related to shot placement, in my civilian job I have seen a patient DRT from one .22LR off the left margin of the sternum in the 5th ICS. So you could say that follow on shots from a rack grade 9mm would be easier than a rack grade 45 acp platform.

But if USSOCOM said hey what do you want, no restrictions, blank check. It's going to be a 45 ACP, and very likely a wilson combat at that.

its not that USSOCOM would say "hey do what you want".....

Let's talk the bullets you're recommending and the ensuing violation of the Geneva Accords with its view of "non-full metal jacket" bullets.. not to mention the international incident that would be all over the front pages for a couple of weeks. and the way of thought for some of the people in charge these days would have you up on War Crimes charges..

There are some very good reasons why NATO ammunition is standardized and in use by many nations...

Stras
07-18-2014, 16:35
While I prefer the 45 for many reasons I know a 9mm or 22 is deadly if shot is placed properly.

This is the key here... Shot placement..

more importantly, do you have the time to make the shot to the proper location..

all the weapons mentioned have their strengths and weaknesses.. some are just a weight issue... others may cause some serious sleepless nights..

tom kelly
07-18-2014, 16:49
The cost of the ammunition that the DOD buy's for small arms, pistols in particular is miniscule when compared to the US Navy's Gerald Ford Aircraft Carriers that cost $12 BILLION each. The Ford class carrier will replace the present Nimitz class I think the Navy presently has 12 Nimitz carriers, plus the new Ford class carrier will have @ 80 F-18 planes that go for @ $135 million each. Now back to pistol ammunition; How much per round would it cost the DOD for any caliber from .9mm to .45ACP ????? Tom Kelly

Team Sergeant
07-18-2014, 17:08
9mm; A .45 round set to stun.........

Why did the US military first adopt the .45? :rolleyes: (Those that do NOT learn from history are dammed to repeat it....)

Then we got sissy leadership and changed the army sidearm to a 9mm so all the sissies could at least hold the weapon up.

SF was force fed the 9mm.

I'm sure they would rather have the .45 back as their round of choice. There are no sissies in Special Forces (that I know of).

And I'm sure the SEALS/MARSOC would say the same thing. (AFSOC would rather employ .22's.......;))

UWOA
07-18-2014, 20:38
9mm; A .45 round set to stun.........



:lifter:p:p:p

Bechorg
07-19-2014, 05:00
Give me the lightest and smallest pistol as possible that can do the job.

How many pistol kills in both OIF-OEF? Probably less than 5-10?

For something as rarely used as a pistol, give me something that will let me carry more water/batteries/food.

Brush Okie
07-19-2014, 07:46
The cost of the ammunition that the DOD buy's for small arms, pistols in particular is miniscule when compared to the US Navy's Gerald Ford Aircraft Carriers that cost $12 BILLION each. The Ford class carrier will replace the present Nimitz class I think the Navy presently has 12 Nimitz carriers, plus the new Ford class carrier will have @ 80 F-18 planes that go for @ $135 million each. Now back to pistol ammunition; How much per round would it cost the DOD for any caliber from .9mm to .45ACP ????? Tom Kelly

Yea and get this. Many soldiers fire less than 100 rounds per year including the 40 qualification rounds because ammo is to expensive. I have always said the Army teaches solders how to fire their weapons not to shoot.

Loadsmasher
07-19-2014, 11:01
Yea and get this. Many soldiers fire less than 100 rounds per year including the 40 qualification rounds because ammo is to expensive. I have always said the Army teaches solders how to fire their weapons not to shoot.

Unless it's the last day of the range and you have 2000 rounds left and the 3 shop says "we cant turn in ammo".

Brush Okie
07-19-2014, 11:25
This is the key here... Shot placement..

more importantly, do you have the time to make the shot to the proper location..

all the weapons mentioned have their strengths and weaknesses.. some are just a weight issue... others may cause some serious sleepless nights..


Oh yes. I have seen a few people that have been shot with everything from a 22 and up. FMJ, hollow point etc. As far as I am concerned for close up there is NOTHING better than a 12 gauge with 00 buck. I have seen heads and limbs taken off with a single shot from one.

The kid with the 25 auto was trying to kill himself and held the pistol to his head. Shot himself, got pissed and shot himself again. His dad took his gun away and drove him into the hospital. He walked into the ER so if ya'll are carrying a 25 because of recoil etc get a .22 it is better. Seen a .22 go into a chest bounce around, puncture a lung and wind up in the neck next to the spine. When we got to the ER we got 1200cc of blood out of his chest.

I carry a 45 because it works for me. Ms Okie uses a sig P220 9mm because it fits her and a hit with a 9 is better than a miss with a 45. Now to get her up to speed where she can take head or pelvic shots.

Box
07-20-2014, 05:13
While this will clearly stir up some shit as an unintended consequence, I am going to say it anyway...


Would I rather have a pistol chambered for .45?
Any day of the week, and twice on sunday.
...but for now I am still armed with an M9.

I don't even bother to jockey for the cool-guy Glock even though we do have a few in the company. Its a short barrelled 9mm suffereing from a magazine shortage so why bother. Besdies, I can find M9 mags in decent quanties almost anywhere on the planet...
You have to beg, borrow, threaten, and steal just to find enough Glock mags to go around and if you DO find issued glocks mags, they dont fit in the SFLC ammo pouches, which means you have to go out and buy your own ammo pouches.
...oh, and a holster. You need a new holster too.

10 years and numerous trips to Iraq and Afghanistan and I have yet to find myself in a situation where I said to myself... FUCK, I really wish I had a Glock or a .45 right now.
...but yes, perfect world, I'd like a ,45 caliber Glock.
Until then, I am more than comfortable carrying my M9 into any situation Uncle Sam forces me into.


That being said, some of the same peronalities I have dealt with in my years that SWEAR you can't kill a man with a 9mm round are some of the first guys to reach for an H&K MP5 if they get within arms reach of it because they "are operating out of vehicles" and need the compact size. 9mm caliber be damned.

...and the folks that SWEAR you can't kill a man with anything smaller than 6.5mm bullets are the same ones that reach for the 10inch barrel for their M-4. Long range accuracy and improved bullet performance be dammned


It has been my experience that any weapon of any caliber, when shot repeatedly at the center of someones torso will incapacitate and kill an assailant. If you are at close range and 15-30 rounds rapidly fired into the torso does not work, then the chances are that a few less rounds form a slightly larger caliber won't really save the day.
I have had SF "operators" squirt a couple of magazines worth of 7.62 from the end of a SCAR, only to find that there are no dead guys in the tree line.
...hell, had a team nearly go black on mini-gun ammo into the same tree line and didn't kill anybody.

Afgan Commandos on the same operation killed a PKM gunner with a few simple 5.56 rounds out of an M-4.
Caliber meant exactly DICK that particular day.
...sadly it would seem that being a well equipped green beret in and of it self doesn't provide one stop bullet effect either.
Caliber is only as important to me as the availablity of magazines, mag pouches and ammo resupply.
I have 5.56 and 9mm as my carry weapons.

...and I am not about to pay for anything out of my own pocket.



In contrast, I have watched a buck run 100 yards after a fatal shot with a 180 grain 30-06 that penetrated both lungs.
If the "fuck I'm shot-I better get the fuck out of here" response works with dumb animals, doesn't it stand to reason that an amped up human that feels his life leaking out of him would dump a little adrenalin into his system and decide not to immediately fall down and die?

Caliber is only a factor, it is not a solution. A .45 round in the arm wont get the same result as a 9mm round in the liver.
...neither are center mass hits, but one is probably going to be fatal

Just my opinion... I have no relevant credentials beyond my own meandering observations.

Peregrino
07-20-2014, 08:24
While this will clearly stir up some shit as an unintended consequence, I am going to say it anyway...


Would I rather have a pistol chambered for .45?
Any day of the week, and twice on sunday.
...but for now I am still armed with an M9.

I don't even bother to jockey for the cool-guy Glock even though we do have a few in the company. Its a short barrelled 9mm suffereing from a magazine shortage so why bother. Besdies, I can find M9 mags in decent quanties almost anywhere on the planet...
You have to beg, borrow, threaten, and steal just to find enough Glock mags to go around and if you DO find issued glocks mags, they dont fit in the SFLC ammo pouches, which means you have to go out and buy your own ammo pouches.
...oh, and a holster. You need a new holster too.

10 years and numerous trips to Iraq and Afghanistan and I have yet to find myself in a situation where I said to myself... FUCK, I really wish I had a Glock or a .45 right now.
...but yes, perfect world, I'd like a ,45 caliber Glock.
Until then, I am more than comfortable carrying my M9 into any situation Uncle Sam forces me into.


That being said, some of the same peronalities I have dealt with in my years that SWEAR you can't kill a man with a 9mm round are some of the first guys to reach for an H&K MP5 if they get within arms reach of it because they "are operating out of vehicles" and need the compact size. 9mm caliber be damned.

...and the folks that SWEAR you can't kill a man with anything smaller than 6.5mm bullets are the same ones that reach for the 10inch barrel for their M-4. Long range accuracy and improved bullet performance be dammned


It has been my experience that any weapon of any caliber, when shot repeatedly at the center of someones torso will incapacitate and kill an assailant. If you are at close range and 15-30 rounds rapidly fired into the torso does not work, then the chances are that a few less rounds form a slightly larger caliber won't really save the day.
I have had SF "operators" squirt a couple of magazines worth of 7.62 from the end of a SCAR, only to find that there are no dead guys in the tree line.
...hell, had a team nearly go black on mini-gun ammo into the same tree line and didn't kill anybody.

Afgan Commandos on the same operation killed a PKM gunner with a few simple 5.56 rounds out of an M-4.
Caliber meant exactly DICK that particular day.
...sadly it would seem that being a well equipped green beret in and of it self doesn't provide one stop bullet effect either.
Caliber is only as important to me as the availablity of magazines, mag pouches and ammo resupply.
I have 5.56 and 9mm as my carry weapons.

...and I am not about to pay for anything out of my own pocket.



In contrast, I have watched a buck run 100 yards after a fatal shot with a 180 grain 30-06 that penetrated both lungs.
If the "fuck I'm shot-I better get the fuck out of here" response works with dumb animals, doesn't it stand to reason that an amped up human that feels his life leaking out of him would dump a little adrenalin into his system and decide not to immediately fall down and die?

Caliber is only a factor, it is not a solution. A .45 round in the arm wont get the same result as a 9mm round in the liver.
...neither are center mass hits, but one is probably going to be fatal

Just my opinion... I have no relevant credentials beyond my own meandering observations.

Hush Gentlemen; the SGM has spoken! :D No sense in muddying the waters with a lot of useless "Me Too's".

blue02hd
07-20-2014, 08:43
Hush Gentlemen; the SGM has spoken! :D No sense in muddying the waters with a lot of useless "Me Too's".

But he didn't really address the "coolness" factor. If you refer back to the first rule of a Green Beret "Always look cool", you would have to agree.

I mean all those support kids and supply guys sporting MP-5's on KAF may be well ahead of us on this on.

I personally preferred 7.62, 50 cal , or MK-19 did my speaking for me,,,,

Peregrino
07-20-2014, 09:21
But he didn't really address the "coolness" factor. If you refer back to the first rule of a Green Beret "Always look cool", you would have to agree.

I mean all those support kids and supply guys sporting MP-5's on KAF may be well ahead of us on this on.

I personally preferred 7.62, 50 cal , or MK-19 did my speaking for me,,,,

I know exactly where you're coming from; I prefer max stand-off myself. For the younger guys we should probably review the parable of "The Old Bull and The Young Bull". JDAMs make for a perfect "Old Bull" solution - and NOBODY argues caliber afterwards. That's why we've been fighting to keep a viable JTAC program in SF. Leave "coolness" for the "Young Bulls" (aka kids).

fox33c1
07-26-2014, 13:26
its not that USSOCOM would say "hey do what you want".....

Let's talk the bullets you're recommending and the ensuing violation of the Geneva Accords with its view of "non-full metal jacket" bullets.. not to mention the international incident that would be all over the front pages for a couple of weeks. and the way of thought for some of the people in charge these days would have you up on War Crimes charges..

There are some very good reasons why NATO ammunition is standardized and in use by many nations...

Sir,

my entire statement (other than the DRT patient) was purely hypothetical. I intended to highlight that better performing ammunition might make a difference (i.e. new 5.56 rounds). That platform is superior to caliber when the consensus is shot placement is the critical element.

I know the reality

18B: here you go... me: WTF is this... 18B: its what we got ...me: fuck

V/R