View Full Version : MRAPs Needed To Combat Combat Vets?
Hmmm...
Do US police really need mine-resistant TANKS to protect us from our own veterans? Indiana sheriff claims soldiers back from Afghanistan have created a new kind of criminal
As American military forces return from Iraq and Afghanistan, one Indiana police station is benefiting from a mine-resistant vehicles once used to tour the war zone to combat a new breed of criminal with military training.
'When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,' Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told Fox 59. 'The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.'
Roughly $4.3 billion worth of military property has been handed over to local and state agencies since 1990, according to the Law Enforcement Support Office.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633150/American-police-forces-benefit-millions-dollars-military-weapons-proof-vehicles-armed-forces-leave-Iraq-Afghanistan.html#ixzz32PYLa1TX
Richard
miclo18d
05-22-2014, 05:23
My county has on of these and so far I've only seen it sitting in a maintenance yard.
If things ever go south, I doubt they'd be able to keep it maintained, to even use it. Defeated by budget cuts, but hey, it looks cool right?
Also, my current Sheriff, Chris Nocco, has gone up against Piers Morgan and made him to look like an idiot (which isn't hard to do). So at the moment I'm not worried about how it will be used. The future may change that.
Streck-Fu
05-22-2014, 05:26
The headline seemed a bit sensationalized and inaccurate from the article.
I posted this in the militarization thread and the justification for the headline is in the video. The officer specifically states that returning veterans have IED knowledge. LINK (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=551245&highlight=MRAP#post551245)
“When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,” said Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department. “The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.”
He should be more worried about foreign entities with agendas rather than worry about less than 1% of the population that chose to defend our American soil. Sure, there will be the occasional wacko, but an MRAP? Also to add, I've been to a lot of classes and briefings throughout my stint in the Army, and I can't recall even one class where we were taught to build IED's. SOF folks, EOD, and Engineers have that knowledge, but your run-of-the-mill conventional support troops do not. Aside from the MRE trick that is :rolleyes::D
Pentagon warns that US faces IED threat at home
“It is clear the IED is the primary weapon of choice” for terrorist networks and, as a result, “is one of the enduring operational and domestic security challenges for the foreseeable future,” says Lt. Gen. Michael Barbero, director of the Pentagon’s Joint Improvised Explosive Device Organization. “The domestic IED threat from both homegrown extremists and global threat networks is real and presents a significant security challenge for the United States.”
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2012/0717/Pentagon-warns-that-US-faces-IED-threat-at-home
Golf1echo
05-22-2014, 05:46
Hmmm...
Do US police really need mine-resistant TANKS to protect us from our own veterans? Indiana sheriff claims soldiers back from Afghanistan have created a new kind of criminal
As American military forces return from Iraq and Afghanistan, one Indiana police station is benefiting from a mine-resistant vehicles once used to tour the war zone to combat a new breed of criminal with military training.
'When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,' Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told Fox 59. 'The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.'
Roughly $4.3 billion worth of military property has been handed over to local and state agencies since 1990, according to the Law Enforcement Support Office.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633150/American-police-forces-benefit-millions-dollars-military-weapons-proof-vehicles-armed-forces-leave-Iraq-Afghanistan.html#ixzz32PYLa1TX
Richard
"No Country for Old Men". In Indiana? Seems a little heavy ( delusional ) on the equipment justification. unless there is something going on up there we don't know about :rolleyes:
rubberneck
05-22-2014, 05:53
It is not the tool but how they are used.
The problem is when your prized possession is a hammer after a while everything begins to look like a nail. I understand the rationale of securing that sort of equipment for the state police, but not for a small municipality. When IEDs become a regular occurrence I'll reconsider my position. Meanwhile they are unnecessary and IMHO are meant to intimidate the populace.
Streck-Fu
05-22-2014, 06:02
One of my biggest issues is that it may be free up front but if they use it at all, it will need regular maintenance and MRAP preventive and corrective maintenance is not cheap.
If they use it enough to train the drivers/operators to competency and then maintain those skills, they will put enough hours on it to require significant work. That will not be cheap.
It will be resigned to parade and promotional use.
mark46th
05-22-2014, 08:02
'The officer specifically states that returning veterans have IED knowledge..' Streckfu
I had IED knowledge BEFORE I joined the army...
blue02hd
05-22-2014, 08:38
Wait til they have to fill that monster up,, Instant Budget breaker there!
Team Sergeant
05-22-2014, 10:20
I remember in the infantry we were trained to assist in shooting down enemy aircraft, even went to the range on FBNC to train on shooting them down. Lots of fun.
Then I joined Special Forces and my combat mindset was forever changed. The emphasis was not on shooting down enemy aircraft but neutralizing the pilots before they got airborne............
And as far as the average federal, state and local LEO goes, I remember the recent situation where "one" California police officer went nuts and went on a killing spree and how law enforcement responded, shooting at anything and anyone that even remotely looks like this guy.
If the Mine Resistant Vehicles (Woobies) give federal, state and local law enforcement a warm and fuzzy so be it. A false sense of security is just that.......
GratefulCitizen
05-22-2014, 22:12
I'm sure this vehicle will do great chasing people on ATVs and motorcycles.
How will they deal with vandals running around cutting the hoses on all the diesel pumps?
Sure would look scary sitting there.
...where it's not needed.
Surf n Turf
05-22-2014, 22:38
Then I joined Special Forces and my combat mindset was forever changed. The emphasis was not on shooting down enemy aircraft but neutralizing the pilots before they got airborne............
Great words of wisdom from the Team Sergeant
SnT
I have seen 1 MRAP's at two local county PDs. I have asked our Task Force officers from those departments what was up with them. They are all black, SWAT logos all over them but do they need them? Is the violent crimes so high that they need them?
They all replied that the only time they moves to go to the range. They were free and they suck gas and the PD probaly can not afford to fill them up very often.
Such a great use of taxpayer funds.:munchin
I have two problems with the FREEBIES..
1)They are not free.. I will not argue the merit of mom & pop LEO forces needing such gear, personally, I don't think they do. BUT, I will argue the need to spend 500K on FREE toys. That money came out of your pockets. The last I looked they were giving away over 1000 MRAP's. Ruff tally is 500,000,000 USD. Now we also get to pay for the free maintenance of these monsters. If we HAVE TO waste money, line these FREE toys up along the Canadian & Mexican border, weld the bumpers together, and load they with napalm..
2)These toys are not all that useful:
a)they are taller than most phone lines and bridges in rural areas
b)they run 50K LBS, enough to crush most rural roads that are built to DOT current standards and crush most rural bridges. Put a couple of these puppies in New York City and you will crush the subway system and sink Manhattan. link: http://www.policeone.com/police-products/vehicles/specialty/articles/6735349-The-hidden-hazards-of-MRAPs/
c)they are used, here is a 42KUSD cost benefit: : http://banning-beaumont.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/draft_fe681730
d)It is very unfortunately that we have lost 37 LEO's in the line of duty, this year. 17 from gunfire. BUT, Not one would have been save with one of these toys. Unless you issue every road patrol one.
Line of Duty Deaths: 46
Gunfire: 17
Assault: 1
Fire: 1
Gunfire (Accidental): 1
Heart attack: 4
Automobile accident: 11
Motorcycle accident: 2
Struck by vehicle: 2
Vehicle pursuit: 2
Vehicular assault: 5
Read more: http://www.odmp.org/search/year#ixzz32jm2GNO1
e)Finally, There is a lot of discussion about the true effectiveness of MRAP's in combat. This article is an "army" view, but you can extrapolate the discussion to make it more of a civilian view with a little imagination. http://breakingdefense.com/2012/10/the-great-mrap-debate-are-blast-resistant-vehicles-worth-it/
Don't get me wrong, there is a need for this type of vehicle,, I just don't see it in a civilian environment. AQ does not target MRAP's.(edit: in the USA) They target soft targets.. I consider this FREE program another effort by berry to waste money,, supported by people in DHS-NSA-FBI, who think they can measure their schmeckel by the size of their FREE TOYS..
The Reaper
05-25-2014, 10:58
JJ:
Wow! :eek:
75 mph in a likely unlicensed MRAP with a max rated speed of 65 mph on a US public highway. I wonder if they checked the tire pressure along the way?
Last time I checked, troops had to go to specialized training to get certified to operate an MRAP. These guys sound more like they kicked the tires and lit the fire.
I guess these officers were protecting and serving in a hurry to get home for dinner. "Out of my way, citizen peasants!"
If they had killed a motorist, that would be a real shame. But they would not have been cited. Now the taxpayers can pay for the idiots' misconduct.
Someone should tell the LEOs procuring these vehicles that MRAPS are resistant to IEDs, not immune. The more armored the vehicle, the bigger (or more advanced) the charge used to defeat them. I have plenty of pics of MRAPs destroyed by people who cannot read or write, or do math beyond ten without looking at their feet.
This all sounds like a big ego trip to me. What's next? Lift kits and bigger tires?
TR
JJ:
Wow! :eek:
75 mph in a likely unlicensed MRAP with a max rated speed of 65 mph on a US public highway. I wonder if they checked the tire pressure along the way?
Last time I checked, troops had to go to specialized training to get certified to operate an MRAP. These guys sound more like they kicked the tires and lit the fire.
This all sounds like a big ego trip to me. What's next? Lift kits and bigger tires?
TR
Exactly TR,,
The old adage "kick the tires and take a test drive" does not apply..
I like the last sentence:
The Banning Police Department remained in possession of its MRAP this week. Retrofitting a surplus armored military vehicle for law enforcement can cost $100,000 or more. Whether Banning police will be allowed to keep their newest one remains to be seen.
I wonder who gets to eat the 100K retro-fit???
I also wonder if they received their free Iberrry phone??
JJ:
Wow! :eek:
75 mph in a likely unlicensed MRAP with a max rated speed of 65 mph on a US public highway. I wonder if they checked the tire pressure along the way?
Last time I checked, troops had to go to specialized training to get certified to operate an MRAP. These guys sound more like they kicked the tires and lit the fire.
I guess these officers were protecting and serving in a hurry to get home for dinner. "Out of my way, citizen peasants!"
If they had killed a motorist, that would be a real shame. But they would not have been cited. Now the taxpayers can pay for the idiots' misconduct.
Someone should tell the LEOs procuring these vehicles that MRAPS are resistant to IEDs, not immune. The more armored the vehicle, the bigger (or more advanced) the charge used to defeat them. I have plenty of pics of MRAPs destroyed by people who cannot read or write, or do math beyond ten without looking at their feet.
This all sounds like a big ego trip to me. What's next? Lift kits and bigger tires?
TR
TR
I had several heated discussions when my office was trying to get 2 of them. Hell we can not keep up on the normal vehicle maint much less support those monsters.
A bunch of want-to-be Military Operators Special Agents argued that they would be a great deterrent when going into Public Housing Projects (PHPs). Well I would tell them how many times have we been shot at on a big Opn? Hummmmm Hummmmm well the answer was NEVER.
How were we going to do maint? Hummm Hummm they would say we will get the Guard to help. Guess what the PR Guard does not have any.
How are we going to park them Hummmm Hummmm We will rent some space somewhere else. We are in a Business park and park our cars in a parking garage that will not allow a F350 with topper to enter.
Who is going to drive them and how are we going to get through those Very Narrow Streets? They would go TDY to some Army base and they would train them to drive. No one could answer the street problem.
Who is going to pay for hitting cars and trucks when you drive this monster on an Opn? Hummmm Hummmm No one wanted to answer that question.
Cops will take anything that is Military and Free without thinking things through. Their planning skills are quite limited and they have NO Logistical mindset.
But they do want to look Cool.
Just my 2 cents....
The Banning Police Department remained in possession of its MRAP this week. Retrofitting a surplus armored military vehicle for law enforcement can cost $100,000 or more. Whether Banning police will be allowed to keep their newest one remains to be seen.
Interesting. Banning is one of the major choke points out of the Los Angeles basin.
Pat
Interesting. Banning is one of the major choke points out of the Los Angeles basin.
Pat
Park a couple of these monsters at the choke point,, missions accomplished.. :lifter
I'm sure someone can find where some colonial "cop" made a similar statement after the Revolutionary War -
"You know, those colonial soldiers, they're real bad-asses! We didn't have that kind of knowledge and understanding of muskets and swords and cannons when I first started out!":eek:
And it's been parroted ever since.
Just check the news over the past 7 or so years. LEOs shoot and kill far, far, far more veterans than the other way around (and with the everyday service weaponry they qualify once a quarter with).
Another factoid - Law Enforcement is prime population for job related PTSD...but you'll never know if you're dealing with such a diagnosed officer as there's usuallly one one psyche eval required to get hired and after that...:boohoo
And, if nothing else, BLUF - "Dear Officer Fear Monger, if the Iraqi and Afghan insurgents can bust out these vehicles what makes you think those who rode in them can't do the same IF they go off the reservation?"
What a moron:munchin
Park a couple of these monsters at the choke point,, missions accomplished.. :lifter
Close the Cajon and Tejon passes and anybody trying to escape has to go south to I-8. A few will figure out how to get up to the 10, but you can cut them off at the Colorado! Works for me. ;) LHC is going to be screwed, though. :D ETA: And he loves road trips. :D
Pat
Chaplain Scott
05-26-2014, 10:37
Back to the issue of the threat posed by combat vets, there is intel among the LE Gang Task forces that certain Hispanic organized gangs have been sending their guys into the infantry to gain knowledge and experience to bring back to the gangs.
The Deputy that I was on patrol with yesterday just returned from a regional gang task force seminar. They had a recently retired CID guy who was showing images of US gang graffiti sprayed on various objects in Iraq/Afghanistan, and groups of US Soldiers flashing known gang signs in the same places.........
Streck-Fu
05-27-2014, 06:45
The Deputy that I was on patrol with yesterday just returned from a regional gang task force seminar. They had a recently retired CID guy who was showing images of US gang graffiti sprayed on various objects in Iraq/Afghanistan, and groups of US Soldiers flashing known gang signs in the same places.........
Any instances of arrested gang members that claimed they went into the service to gain infantry training?
Kids posing for pictures flash 'gang' signs all the time and have for years. Any evidence of the claim other than some pictures?
Back to the issue of the threat posed by combat vets, there is intel among the LE Gang Task forces that certain Hispanic organized gangs have been sending their guys into the infantry to gain knowledge and experience to bring back to the gangs.
The Deputy that I was on patrol with yesterday just returned from a regional gang task force seminar. They had a recently retired CID guy who was showing images of US gang graffiti sprayed on various objects in Iraq/Afghanistan, and groups of US Soldiers flashing known gang signs in the same places.........
Are there stupid kids on AD that have friends & family in a gang,, no doubt. Did they join the army to be a better gang member?? Maybe some of the Mexican drug cartel did??
What gang activity was discussed for his regional gang task force seminar.
Sometimes the people teaching these classes might,,
just might be in the business of teaching classes,,
and making big bucks,,
telling students what they want to hear.
After all,, they do need repeat business..
Look at our buddy(S) Hammersmith, Hillar, or any of our inductees in the Hall Of Shame.
They would tell you anything to get your money..
There is no doubt that there are a bunch of good people out there doing continuing ed. But what is taught is infrequently verified..
My $00.00002.. :munchin
Chaplain Scott
05-31-2014, 18:57
Any instances of arrested gang members that claimed they went into the service to gain infantry training?
Kids posing for pictures flash 'gang' signs all the time and have for years. Any evidence of the claim other than some pictures?
I honestly don't know (although its a really good question). I am a mere Reserve Deputy, we don't get to go to training events :rolleyes:
Yawn.
MRAPs are so easily disabled that the entire issue is a non-starter for anyone concerned about LEO misuse of the vehicles. Safe? Pretty much, yeah. Durable? Not really.... even without violence they break on their own just fine.
Within five years none of them will be running.
Utah Bob
06-03-2014, 16:11
Sheriff Phred has an MRAP. Dammit! We should get one for our department. Howz it gonna look at the SWAT Rodeo if we don't have one painted up cooler than his?
But Chief. Remember what happened when we ran out of spare parts for that surplus Huey? Actually we ran out of fuel money first.
Shaddupp and get me a damn MRAP.
I have heard these conversations before.:rolleyes: