View Full Version : Non-theism Conduct
Chili_Wango
05-15-2014, 10:06
All,
I have a question regarding non-theists and how to conduct oneself in a religious setting. I've come to understand that the military is quite religious; I am an athiest.
Quick background: grew up in a free-thinking Christian family (my mother claimed to be baptist, but the extent of our religious upbringing would be saying a prayer before eating and going to bed; however, that ended for me when I entered high school), and realized religion is not for me. Went to a private liberal-arts college where athiests were the majority and received dual degrees in biology and chemistry. Needless to say, I have had very little contact with religion throughout my life.
I recently had dinner with a friend who is quite devout, and he was throughly upset that I didn't place my hands on my lap and bow my head during prayer. I sat up straight and politely sat in silence until his ritual was complete. Was I in the wrong for not assuming the "praying position"?
CW
P.S. He is my only Christian friend and I have no where else to get opinions on the matter.
All,
Was I in the wrong for not assuming the "praying position"?
Yes.
When you're in someones home (or country), it's a poor time to assert your individuality. A good cultural briefing before deployment will include the do/don't for a region. Whether or not it's "just your way" really doesn't matter.
Chili_Wango
05-15-2014, 11:13
Yes.
When you're in someones home (or country), it's a poor time to assert your individuality. A good cultural briefing before deployment will include the do/don't for a region. Whether or not it's "just your way" really doesn't matter.
First, I appreciate your response. However, you bring up an interesting notion: "When you're in someones home (or country), it's a poor time to assert your individuality." We were in my home. I cooked. I had no problem with him saying a prayer.
I also appreciate you bringing this into the large scope of things, but I'm specifically refering to conduct within the United States (or in the military for that matter). Although there may be social norms, in let's say Iran, regarding God, the same does not hold true here.
I take Jefferson's view on the matter: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
I wish to be respectful to my fellow soldiers, I wish to know what they find respectful, and not.
I consider myself a Deist. A friend wants to pray over his meal in my house, I don't care, but I'm not praying and if he says anything he'll get told to pound sand.
However, anywhere else, I show respect. What difference does it make to me if they want to hold hands and pray or bow heads? My bowing my head and/or holding hands doesn't mean I'm praying.
Chili_Wango
05-15-2014, 11:56
What difference does it make to me if they want to hold hands and pray or bow heads? My bowing my head and/or holding hands doesn't mean I'm praying.[/QUOTE]
True. I used to be quite militant about athiesm; not proud of it, but it is what it is. The old militant "me" used to think that conceding in that aspect was them cramming religion down my throat -- i've since tossed that ridiculous train of thought.
Chili_Wango
05-15-2014, 12:02
This has led me to another question then: since the majority of the military is Chrisitian, am I "in their house"? I dislike "alienating" myself using terms like that, but i've been treated in such ways before -- whether I wanted it or not.
To be perfectly blunt, as i've mentioned before, I was quite militant (radical), and I am still trying to deal with that part of me... I'm not looking to be an individual in the military and set myself apart, but i'm also trying to find balance on how to respect/be respected....
Respect is over rated. Be yourself and the world be damned.
IMO, since it was your home, your friend should have done his praying silently by himself. He's a jackass!
First, I appreciate your response. However, you bring up an interesting notion: "When you're in someones home (or country), it's a poor time to assert your individuality." We were in my home. I cooked. I had no problem with him saying a prayer.
I think I've suffered fewer injuries from slamming to the ground beneath an old T-10 than in jumping from my perceptions to a conclusion. :o
And, thank you for your courtesy.
I would have bowed my head, but that's probably to an old Southern upbringing. No logic to it, just like my Jewish friends wishing me a Merry Christmas.
Somehow however, the following rings in my mind....
"This is the grave of Mike O’Day,
He died defending his right of way,
His right was clear, his will was strong
But he is just as dead as if he’d been wrong."
Perhaps it's not as much a matter of personal conviction as it is nurturing personal relationships.
Chili_Wango
05-15-2014, 14:09
Perhaps it's not as much a matter of personal conviction as it is nurturing personal relationships.
I whole-heartedly agree. Sometimes I just need to swallow my "pride" and accept them for their faults ;).
Snaquebite
05-15-2014, 14:11
and he was throughly upset that I didn't place my hands on my lap and bow my head during prayer
Curious to know if he's so devout, how did he know that....did he peek?:rolleyes:
I am not overly religious by any means, I believe in God and that Christ died for my sins but I would in no way foist my beliefs on anyone else. In the same vein I would not like anyone foisting their personal beliefs on me. If you were respectful of your guest as he/she prayed that is certainly good enough for me.
All,
I have a question regarding non-theists and how to conduct oneself in a religious setting. I've come to understand that the military is quite religious; I am an athiest.
Quick background: grew up in a free-thinking Christian family (my mother claimed to be baptist, but the extent of our religious upbringing would be saying a prayer before eating and going to bed; however, that ended for me when I entered high school), and realized religion is not for me. Went to a private liberal-arts college where athiests were the majority and received dual degrees in biology and chemistry. Needless to say, I have had very little contact with religion throughout my life.
I recently had dinner with a friend who is quite devout, and he was throughly upset that I didn't place my hands on my lap and bow my head during prayer. I sat up straight and politely sat in silence until his ritual was complete. Was I in the wrong for not assuming the "praying position"?
CW
P.S. He is my only Christian friend and I have no where else to get opinions on the matter.
I'm a deeply devout person.
First, does your friend know that you're non-religious? Did you know that he wanted you to put your hands together and bow your head when he prayed?
If he knows you're not remotely religious, then he's got a problem. If you know that he expects you to bow your head, then you have a problem.
Being considerate is the issue.
Be polite - be yourself - don't let the door of 'pseudo-friends' hit them in the @$$ when they show it and leave over something like this.
Richard
I'm a deeply devout person.
First, does your friend know that you're non-religious? Did you know that he wanted you to put your hands together and bow your head when he prayed?
If he knows you're not remotely religious, then he's got a problem. If you know that he expects you to bow your head, then you have a problem.
Being considerate is the issue.
Only a jackass would go to a friend's(or anyone else's) home and expect them to
bow to his wishes. The only problem Chili has is befriending this inconsiderate bastard.
Perhaps it's not as much a matter of personal conviction as it is nurturing personal relationships.
I think smoking is absolutely disgusting(bar the rare cigar after the rare couple of drinks ;) ), but I carry an unopened pack of cigarettes in my day bag just in case there's a smoker in need who is worth cultivating.
Back in March I had the chance to run a pretty big meeting covering 5 districts in Afghan. The packed house meeting started with a prayer. I'm a recovering Catholic….but damn skippy I was praying…."Dear God, I know we haven't been close in recent decades, but please don't let me screw this up! Tashakur little 10 pound 6 ounce Xmas Baby Jesus!"
If I had not shown humility/sincerity/commonality I would have lost the entire room before we even kicked off.
A good friend and my main service career mentor is a reformed bad boy who found Jesus. At his house I pray before a feed because that's what his family does. At my house he would never impose, but I ask him if he would like to kick off the feed with a prayer since he is my guest, friend, and mentor.
It was easy…ONCE I asked him about what happened, and what/how things changed.
I think asking folks on this forum is good, but talking to your mate might be even better.
I've come to understand that the military is quite religious; I am an atheist.
My understanding is that this is the nut of your question: in the military, not in your home. Correct?
I'm Christian, raised Catholic and a former Altar Boy, yet I have been the Best Man at two weddings, both Jewish. I own a yarmulke and am proud to have been asked to stand with my friends, in their own faith under the chuppah, at their weddings.
What would you do?
Pat
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 09:25
My understanding is that this is the nut of your question: in the military, not in your home. Correct?
Correct, and even more to the point, since the majority are Christian, am I in their house? I want to believe the separation of church and state, but that just isn't a reality.
While I dispise most forms of faith, I love my friends. I would (and have) without a doubt attend their weddings, the baptism of their child, bar or bat mitzvah etc.
:D
Army Disbands Chaplain Corps, Says Military Is ‘No Place For Superstition’
http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/chaplain-corps-disbanded/#!NZWwD
Marines Convert To Norse Paganism, Demand Horns And Wings On Helmets
http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/01/marines-religious-freedom/
Richard
While I dispise most forms of faith......
You definitely have a chip on your shoulder. What do you care what other people think?
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 10:18
You definitely have a chip on your shoulder. What do you care what other people think?
I don't -- however, what other people think can influence my life. You can think whatever you want, but once that starts to interfere with my life, the line is drawn. A minor example was at MEPS. I did not say "So help me God". I was not drawing attention to myself, I was not trying to be individual, yet everyone awkwardly paused to see if I would finish the oath of enlistment -- hell, the Captain presiding over the matter raised his eyebrow -- no joke.
BoomerUSMC
05-16-2014, 11:08
I don't -- however, what other people think can influence my life.
:confused:I certainly hope not. If your life can be manipulated so readily by someone else's thoughts, then you may need some help in the self-awareness/self-assurance/self-confidence department.
If you don't care what others think, and don't care for the opinions of people who disagree with what you believe why did you even bother to make the first post in this thread?
If you're going to stand out in the rain you have to learn to let water run off your back. Shaking your fist at the sky and swearing ain't going to change the fact your getting wet.
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 11:29
:confused:I certainly hope not. If your life can be manipulated so readily by someone else's thoughts, then you may need some help in the self-awareness/self-assurance/self-confidence department.
I'm not talking about my personal feelings, think the large scope of things. How many laws are influenced by religious ideals? How many people have been discriminated against because they believe something else?
If you don't care what others think, and don't care for the opinions of people who disagree with what you believe why did you even bother to make the first post in this thread?
If you're going to stand out in the rain you have to learn to let water run off your back. Shaking your fist at the sky and swearing ain't going to change the fact your getting wet.
Sir, I think I may be a little misunderstood so I will clarify: While I do not care what other people think (If you believe in aliens, Allah, God, Zeus, etc), I still wish to, as was mentioned earlier, nurture relationships.
.... I still wish to, as was mentioned earlier, nurture relationships.
Nurture? You don't come off as a nurturing person.
The "friend" you invited over to your house? You've never eaten with him in public, mess hall, etc where he prayed over his meal? He never knew that you didn't?
Right THEN would then have been the time to get it all out in the open. You do - he doesn't. You accommodate him by letting him pray and he accommodates you by not peeking.
I have truly been surprised a time or two by an associate during off duty hours. But it really didn't bother me unless - which it never did - it spilled over into work hours.
BoomerUSMC
05-16-2014, 11:52
I don't -- however, what other people think can influence my life. You can think whatever you want, but once that starts to interfere with my life, the line is drawn. A minor example was at MEPS. I did not say "So help me God". I was not drawing attention to myself, I was not trying to be individual, yet everyone awkwardly paused to see if I would finish the oath of enlistment -- hell, the Captain presiding over the matter raised his eyebrow -- no joke.
I'm not talking about my personal feelings, think the large scope of things. How many laws are influenced by religious ideals? How many people have been discriminated against because they believe something else?.
These two statements are diametrically opposed. The post I referred to WAS personal to you as evidenced by "my life" and various and sundry "I"'s in your post.
The point being that if someone else's belief system imposes such burden on you, then you have bigger issues that ARE of a personal nature. These issues are yours and not the other guys. You claim to not want to draw attention to yourself by not uttering "So help me God" while taking an oath, well what did you truly expect?
Respect...you get it when you give it. Sounds like you should learn to give a little.
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 12:03
This is simply degrading down to another arguement -- which is my fault, and I apologize. My goal of this thread was not to argue about religion, but rather, find certain perferences that people have in terms of what they find respectful.
It's difficult to give respect when you don't understand their standards. The example of my friend turned out to be a poor one; something had happened to him earlier which set him on a short fuse (we have also had heated discussions, and he apparently thought I was trying to start another).
Thank you all for taking your time to respond, I sincerely appreciate it.
CW
BoomerUSMC
05-16-2014, 12:14
All,
Was I in the wrong for not assuming the "praying position"?
I want to avoid a dogpile so in regard to your original question, my take on it is no you weren't in the wrong since it was your house. Your friend wished to pray and, I assume, that you were fine with it. You are not obligated to fold your hands, drop to your knees, take communion or handle a pit viper because he has a belief system that you do not share. A respectful gesture would have been to simply bow your head while he said his prayer.
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 12:27
Thanks for the response Boomer. The general consensus is that it depends on whose house you are in. Something I didn't regard before (I can be thick-headed sometimes), is just use my SA. If i'm at their house, and we're not well aquainted, I'll just mimick their posture.
I can be a turd sometimes when it comes to religion, but i'm trying to work on it :D.
BoomerUSMC
05-16-2014, 12:33
But then again....If someone at my table starts yelling "ala snackbar" I'm shooting them in the face. Respect for others has it's limits. :D
"I've come to understand that the military is quite religious; I am an athiest."
CW that is your quote, can you clarify for me how you have come to that understanding? I enlisted back in the mid 70's at a time when society as a whole was a lot more religious than they strike me to be now, but at no time did I feel as if the military was quite religious. Maybe I am wrong but I would be hard pressed to think that the military is forcing any kind of religion on anyone. Are you currently on active duty?
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 14:08
CW that is your quote, can you clarify for me how you have come to that understanding? I enlisted back in the mid 70's at a time when society as a whole was a lot more religious than they strike me to be now, but at no time did I feel as if the military was quite religious. Maybe I am wrong but I would be hard pressed to think that the military is forcing any kind of religion on anyone. Are you currently on active duty?
To answer your last question, no, I am not AD. I never inferred from that statement that I was having any kind of religion forced on me. However, I have inferred, from this site in particular, that many are. I also have been around the military culture for a while.
Brother is AD Air Force, younger brother AD Air Force, step-brother AD Air Force, step-dad retired AD Air Force 24 years, and my grandfather is a retired Army Colonel.
To answer your last question, no, I am not AD. I never inferred from that statement that I was having any kind of religion forced on me. However, I have inferred, from this site in particular, that many are. I also have been around the military culture for a while.
Brother is AD Air Force, younger brother AD Air Force, step-brother AD Air Force, step-dad retired AD Air Force 24 years, and my grandfather is a retired Army Colonel.
Well, are they all running around with crosses burned into their foreheads, a Bible under each are foaming at the mouth - or are they pretty much like normal people?
If they are pretty much normal then you should survive just fine - unless you start making things an issue with folks around you.
I don't -- however, what other people think can influence my life. You can think whatever you want, but once that starts to interfere with my life, the line is drawn. A minor example was at MEPS. I did not say "So help me God". I was not drawing attention to myself, I was not trying to be individual, yet everyone awkwardly paused to see if I would finish the oath of enlistment -- hell, the Captain presiding over the matter raised his eyebrow -- no joke.
IF you make it through the pipeline, you are going to have a very rough time and will not be around very long. As Sinjefe said, you have a chip on your shoulder. Lose it or do everyone a favor and quit.:boohoo
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 17:38
IF you make it through the pipeline, you are going to have a very rough time and will not be around very long. As Sinjefe said, you have a chip on your shoulder. Lose it or do everyone a favor and quit.:boohoo
Thank you for the advisement. Will work on it.
The Reaper
05-16-2014, 19:41
IF you make it through the pipeline, you are going to have a very rough time and will not be around very long. As Sinjefe said, you have a chip on your shoulder. Lose it or do everyone a favor and quit.:boohoo
I agree.
You are already prejudiced and intolerant and will likely have trouble integrating with people of other cultures.
Christians are just the only permitted targets here now.
If you don't like Christians and think they are pushy, wait till you meet Muslims.
I don't think you are really cut out for SF.
Best of luck anyway.
TR
WarriorDiplomat
05-16-2014, 19:44
Thank you for the advisement. Will work on it.
As others on here have stated it is obvious from your posts you come across like you have a defensive chip on your shoulder.
It seems you are struggling with your identity and don't have enough conviction in what you fo currently feel to not be offended by others. Are you that afraid of someone influencing your personal belief system? if you feel that vulnerable then SF isn't for you. You need some thick skin to make it in our world take nothing personal and charlie mike. If you let something as little as a friends zealousness throw you for a loop to be honest I don't see your mindset surving in SF.
So as a current Chief Instructor, vet of multiple deployments in both combat and non...... you need to figure this out before you commit to the SFQC . We have all types serving in our unit every race and belief are in here, the criminals the religious zealots the Rangers, cooks and candlestick makers all come here. What makes everyone here compatible is the fact they believe in the mission above all things, that means personal religious beliefs, color of their skin, coutry boy or city boy all come secondary to the mission. If you are at a stage in your life that this topic is that bothersome you won't survive in a Squad bay, ISOFAC, Team Room and finally in a host nation country who's particular social structure is centered around their religion.
Trust me when I say, a group of warriors get together it doesn't take long befoe they figure out what irritates someone once that happens the sharks move in this becomes the entertainment for a bunch of bored warriors during down time.
So he came to your house, ate your food and wants you follow his religious rules...hmmm you sure he was a Christian? Sounds like another religion to me :D
Chili_Wango,
Atheism is no longer a non-belief, it is a dogma as much as Catholicism, Mormonism, or Islamism. And, you are a proselytizer of that dogma. I’ve dated a Mormon girl, and met her family, and I worked with a Jehovah’s Witness as well as participated in the above mentioned weddings. No one tried to “convert” me. We had discussions, yes, because I was interested. The JW guy left The Watchtower pamphlets in our mailboxes (this was as an airline dispatcher) and I had to get schooled on the ritual of a Jewish wedding. All of the above interactions were cordial and positive. My many interactions with militant atheists have been negative. Why so much venom in a non-belief?
Ever heard of Pascal’s Wager? Place your bet!
Pat
C-W et al,
Ever read "The Source" by James Michener? I recommend it.
Richard
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 23:22
C-W et al,
Ever read "The Source" by James Michener? I recommend it.
Richard
I have not. Just ordered it from Amazon though. Only 8 bucks.
Chili_Wango
05-16-2014, 23:25
Chili_Wango,
Atheism is no longer a non-belief, it is a dogma as much as Catholicism, Mormonism, or Islamism. And, you are a proselytizer of that dogma. I’ve dated a Mormon girl, and met her family, and I worked with a Jehovah’s Witness as well as participated in the above mentioned weddings. No one tried to “convert” me. We had discussions, yes, because I was interested. The JW guy left The Watchtower pamphlets in our mailboxes (this was as an airline dispatcher) and I had to get schooled on the ritual of a Jewish wedding. All of the above interactions were cordial and positive. My many interactions with militant atheists have been negative. Why so much venom in a non-belief?
Ever heard of Pascal’s Wager? Place your bet!
Pat
I do not think you understand the definition of "proselytizer"; no where in this thread have I done anything to convert someone.
I do not think you understand the definition of "proselytizer"; no where in this thread have I done anything to convert someone.
Really? Well, a positive defense in believing in nothing seems to be the same. ;)
As to Pascal's Wager, double down? Wouldn't matter, really. :D
Pat
Chili_Wango
05-17-2014, 00:07
Really? Well, a positive defense in believing in nothing seems to be the same. ;)
As to Pascal's Wager, double down? Wouldn't matter, really. :D
Pat
Haha sure. We can double down. Technically, I'm the only one with something to lose.
Haha sure. We can double down. Technically, I'm the only one with something to lose.
And are you willing to suffer that loss to save a wounded soldier 10 meters away? Especially if he has professed a belief, to you, in an afterlife?
Pat
Chili_Wango
05-17-2014, 00:22
And are you willing to suffer that loss to save a wounded soldier 10 meters away? Especially if he has professed a belief, to you, in an afterlife?
Pat
Of course. I may not agree with him. But I will die allowing him to have his own beliefs. I'm an athiest, not without a heart or conscious. Isn't that the point of serving? Protecting the American way of life? Preserving ones right to believe anything without regard to your own personal beliefs?
I'm an athiest, not without a heart or conscious. Isn't that the point of serving? Protecting the American way of life? Preserving ones right to believe anything without regard to your own personal beliefs?
Where does your consciousness come from?
Where do those rights come from?
Why are you self aware at all?
Why do you even exist?
Why does the universe exist? What a waste of energy!
BTW, if you profess your non-belief, will that wounded soldier, 10 meters away, trust you to come to his aid?
Pat
Chili_Wango
05-17-2014, 00:45
Where does your consciousness come from?
Where do those rights come from?
Why are you self aware at all?
Why do you even exist?
Why does the universe exist? What a waste of energy!
BTW, if you profess your non-belief, will that wounded soldier, 10 meters away, trust you to come to his aid?
Pat
That is his problem to deal with. With that same logic, should I trust him?
Trust me when I say, a group of warriors get together it doesn't take long before they figure out what irritates someone once that happens the sharks move in this becomes the entertainment for a bunch of bored warriors during down time.:cool::D:lifter
"You're going to need to get a bigger boat"
Chili_Wango
05-17-2014, 09:57
Well, glad this conversation happened. Never realized how much of a weakness it could be. This applies to much more than just religion as well.
Thanks all,
CW
But then again....If someone at my table starts yelling "ala snackbar" I'm shooting them in the face. Respect for others has it's limits. :D
Great line! I've got to write that one down. Thanks!
:D:D:D
Well, glad this conversation happened. Never realized how much of a weakness it could be. This applies to much more than just religion as well.
Thanks all,
CW
Now you are getting it. Thicken up your skin, don't carry chips as you will need the "space" and strength to carry your teammates, and be (selectively) tolerant of others.
Good luck.
C-W et al,
Ever read "The Source" by James Michener? I recommend it.
Richard
I'll second that!
Just remember one thing. When the bullets start flying and shit is looking bad you would be amazed at how fast non believers start to as for help from above.
Just saying;)
Keep an open mind when dealing with other people that think differently and be tolerant. Not all will be the same but if you make it through the pipeline you will have to work with a lot of different people around the world.
Chili_Wango
05-19-2014, 10:24
Just remember one thing. When the bullets start flying and shit is looking bad you would be amazed at how fast non believers start to as for help from above.
Not that it would do them much good ;)
Keep an open mind when dealing with other people that think differently and be tolerant. Not all will be the same but if you make it through the pipeline you will have to work with a lot of different people around the world.
Like Pete said "If you're going to stand out in the rain you have to learn to let water run off your back."
The exact reason for my intolerance, is the intolerance of others. Two wrongs don't make a right; and as stated my attitude wouldn't make the cut. My opinions will not change, I will just handle them differently.
...The exact reason for my intolerance, is the intolerance of others. Two wrongs doesn't make a right; and as stated my attitude wouldn't make the cut. My opinions will not change, I will just handle them differently.
And there ya' go.