Recommendatons/Input on 308 NATO (7.62) Rifles

[Spiffav8]

Gentlemen,

I find myself wanting to do some precision and longer distance shooting. I have been doing a lot of reading on the various platforms out there for this and honestly don't know which way to go. I have a short list and was hoping that you could offer some feedback/input as I know many of you may have used some of rifles that are I am considering. My motto is "buy once, cry once" so I don't mind spending a bit to get the right one. There are limits to that though. Here's my short list....and I am not intending for this to be a "VS" type thread. Just likes, dislikes, pluses and minuses and things to look out for.

Respectfully,

SpiffAV8

Knights Armament SR25 ECC

LMT LM308MWSF

LaRue PredatOBR

SIG SAUER SIG716

[The Reaper]

Gentlemen,

I find myself wanting to do some precision and longer distance shooting. I have been doing a lot of reading on the various platforms out there for this and honestly don't know which way to go. I have a short list and was hoping that you could offer some feedback/input as I know many of you may have used some of rifles that are I am considering. My motto is "buy once, cry once" so I don't mind spending a bit to get the right one. There are limits to that though. Here's my short list....and I am not intending for this to be a "VS" type thread. Just likes, dislikes, pluses and minuses and things to look out for.

Respectfully,

SpiffAV8

Knights Armament SR25 ECC

LMT LM308MWSF

LaRue PredatOBR

SIG SAUER SIG716

The best you listed is probably the LaRue, but there is a long line to get one.

The LMT is a very nice rifle from a great company.

The KAC is good, but the company is difficult to deal with and spare parts may be problematic.

I have no trigger time on the SIG.

HTH.

TR

[Spiffav8]

The best you listed is probably the LaRue, but there is a long line to get one.

The LMT is a very nice rifle from a great company.

The KAC is good, but the company is difficult to deal with and spare parts may be problematic.

I have no trigger time on the SIG.

HTH.

TR

Thank you! Last I heard the wait is 18 months for the LaRue. The KAC is pretty hard to find and of course everyone who has one wants way over MSRP for them. Supply and Demand I suppose. I have heard nothing but good things about the LMT and honestly that's what I am leaning towards. I was able to get some trigger time with a SIG716 and while it's nice, I wasn't all that impressed with the trigger, weight or balance. I currently have a KAC SR-15 and I have to admit, I REALLY like it. So that kind of keeps the SR-25 on my list, even though the parts are hard to get.

I've learned, the expensive way, a few things I like and hope to avoid having to add to much to a platform to make it right for me. In addition to the SR-15 I have a DD Mk18 and a Colt 6920. Both have Geissele triggers and Battle Comp muzzle breaks along with a few others accessories. Once you add up all the extras, it's cheaper to buy a nicer stock gun. At the end of the day, the SR-15 is nicer and it was about the same price as "kitting up" my Colt.

I'm no pro. So I really appreciate any and all the input I can get here.

Thanks again.

[Papa Zero Three]

Gentlemen,

I find myself wanting to do some precision and longer distance shooting. I have been doing a lot of reading on the various platforms out there for this and honestly don't know which way to go. I have a short list and was hoping that you could offer some feedback/input as I know many of you may have used some of rifles that are I am considering. My motto is "buy once, cry once" so I don't mind spending a bit to get the right one. There are limits to that though. Here's my short list....and I am not intending for this to be a "VS" type thread. Just likes, dislikes, pluses and minuses and things to look out for.

Respectfully,

SpiffAV8

Knights Armament SR25 ECC

LMT LM308MWSF

LaRue PredatOBR

SIG SAUER SIG716



You may also want to consider the GAP10 and MATEN. Expect a wait for a GAP10 as with any custom made gun these days. The MATEN, you can build yourself or obtain the parts and take them to your gunsmith for assembly. John Mcquade of 8541 tactical has a very good youtube video series on the building of a MATEN that he recently did thats worth checking out.

[mdpatterson]

Just another option to check out if you haven't already. I agree that Larue is the best one on your list. The wait is long, but you can find them on Gunbroker and other sites. There is one for sale now......prices always above MSRP though.

Mike

[Spiffav8]

You may also want to consider the GAP10 and MATEN. Expect a wait for a GAP10 as with any custom made gun these days. The MATEN, you can build yourself or obtain the parts and take them to your gunsmith for assembly. John Mcquade of 8541 tactical has a very good youtube video series on the building of a MATEN that he recently did thats worth checking out.

Zero Three,

Well thank you for the suggestions. The MATEN is very cool, but honestly way above my know how. When at home, I work part time for a custom gun shop and I'm sure the guys in the back could help me build one. Choosing everything would probably drive me insane though.

The GAP10 looks amazing....and when you bring up Google Images, it shows two of my favorite things. ;) I watched a YouTube video of some guy named Travis showing just what can be done with the GAP10 and have to admit, it is impressive! Price is decent to boot. I am going to add it to my list as I do some more research and bump the SIG716. It just doesn't seem to hold a candle to the others.

VR

[Peregrino]

I think you're overthinking this. The AR platform is inherently accurate. A decent trigger, a decent barrel, and a free-float hand guard and they'll ALL shoot as well as an equivalent bolt gun. You've listed a couple of quality rifles but do you really need to spend that kind of money? If you have access to a custom gun shop why haven't you considered a DPMS 308? I know a number of serious competitors who are using DPMS receivers (or clones) for their custom builds. They are the current standard (Chevy/Ford of the 308 ARs) and easy to work with. They're readily available, relatively inexpensive, and (in the mid/upper grades) as accurate and reliable as anything you've listed. Swap in a Geissele trigger, spend decent money on optics (you'll have to do that with everything else too) and spend the savings on decent ammo. It's not the LaRue (which is a Cadillac rifle) but you're neither paying nor waiting what it'll take to get the LaRue. FWIW - I use one for plinking at 1000yds. It easily holds the 10 ring with LR118 (but only when I get the wind right!). That's decent accuracy in anyone's book and IIRC I've only got about $1400 in the rifle. (The scope costs more than the rifle.)

When you get a chance how about posting a new introduction? Your old one seems to have gotten "misplaced".

[Spiffav8]

I think you're overthinking this. The AR platform is inherently accurate. A decent trigger, a decent barrel, and a free-float hand guard and they'll ALL shoot as well as an equivalent bolt gun. You've listed a couple of quality rifles but do you really need to spend that kind of money? If you have access to a custom gun shop why haven't you considered a DPMS 308? I know a number of serious competitors who are using DPMS receivers (or clones) for their custom builds. They are the current standard (Chevy/Ford of the 308 ARs) and easy to work with. They're readily available, relatively inexpensive, and (in the mid/upper grades) as accurate and reliable as anything you've listed. Swap in a Geissele trigger, spend decent money on optics (you'll have to do that with everything else too) and spend the savings on decent ammo. It's not the LaRue (which is a Cadillac rifle) but you're neither paying nor waiting what it'll take to get the LaRue. FWIW - I use one for plinking at 1000yds. It easily holds the 10 ring with LR118 (but only when I get the wind right!). That's decent accuracy in anyone's book and IIRC I've only got about $1400 in the rifle. (The scope costs more than the rifle.)

When you get a chance how about posting a new introduction? Your old one seems to have gotten "misplaced".

That's some great advice. I did that to my Colt (5.56) and it's a fairly nice shooting rifle and honestly it's been my favorite up till now. I only have 60 rounds through the SR-15 I picked up, so that might change.

I'll roll over to the intro section, though there's not much to tell. Honestly, I've been here for awhile and though I haven't posted till now, I've learned some great things from the sites members. Lot of good people here.

[FlagDayNCO]

As Peregrino mentioned, the DPMS will do you no wrong, and can make you a believer in the long run.

For what it's worth, you can order a LaRue and wait it out. Save your money, possibly in a Christmas Account or something like that. If one of the other options comes along at a reasonable price, buy it. Or continue to wait for your LaRue. You pay no money to LaRue until your rifle is ready. That 18 month wait keeps getting longer and longer. You can cancel your order at any time.

Nice thing about the DPMS recommendation is you can get a reputable smith to assemble it for you. If something goes wrong, it's an easy fix, as DPMS parts are easier to come by than any of the others listed.

Think of your purchase as an investment, in the terms of continued function. The money you save on the DPMS route will allow you to purchase the scope and an extra barrel and parts. Don't forget the ammunition.

You never know when Uncle Sam will declare parts of Rifle XX to be banned. The other side is if Rifle XX is in high demand, there may be no spare parts.

The military collectors gobble up all the KAC parts. LWRC only uses LWRC parts, etc. When you're on the range, will you be able to repair it or have to send it back to manufacturer?

[Spiffav8]

You never know when Uncle Sam will declare parts of Rifle XX to be banned. The other side is if Rifle XX is in high demand, there may be no spare parts.

The military collectors gobble up all the KAC parts. LWRC only uses LWRC parts, etc. When you're on the range, will you be able to repair it or have to send it back to manufacturer?

Now there's something I hadn't considered. Awesome advice. I''ll have a look at the DPMS next week, right after SEMA is over.

Thank You!

[koz]

You might take a look at the CMMG 308

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=374490952

http://www.cmmginc.com/product_p/38aea9a.htm

Has the Geissele trigger, key mod rail, MB, and SS barrel. For $1800 it's not a bad price.


But back to your OP, I've had all but one (Sig) of the guns listed. I still have the KAC (EMC). I had a ton of problems with the OBR heavy, even after sending it back multiple times. The LMT is a nice gun but feel very front heavy. If you want the opportunity for a switch barrel it's a good pick unless you go with the PredatOBR. Wes Grant (MSTN) got one of the first released and loves it. He'll be getting a 6.5 barrel made for his.
To me the EMC / ECC is the softer shooting gun on the list. The JP feels the same or better.

[longrange1947]

My 2 cents, with KAC, it is a box of chocolates, you never know what you will get as far as quality. That has been my experience at least.

Have no idea what the wait time is on an OBR by LaRue but really like mine.

What Peregino stated is very true. Most of the good manufacturers will make a good solid platform, and only a few add ons will be needed.

Have fun. :)

[Spiffav8]

My 2 cents, with KAC, it is a box of chocolates, you never know what you will get as far as quality. That has been my experience at least.

Have no idea what the wait time is on an OBR by LaRue but really like mine.

What Peregino stated is very true. Most of the good manufacturers will make a good solid platform, and only a few add ons will be needed.

Have fun. :)

Thanks Rick! I appreciate the feedback.

Love the quote in your signature line by the way. So very true!

[Spiffav8]

You might take a look at the CMMG 308

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=374490952

http://www.cmmginc.com/product_p/38aea9a.htm

Has the Geissele trigger, key mod rail, MB, and SS barrel. For $1800 it's not a bad price.


But back to your OP, I've had all but one (Sig) of the guns listed. I still have the KAC (EMC). I had a ton of problems with the OBR heavy, even after sending it back multiple times. The LMT is a nice gun but feel very front heavy. If you want the opportunity for a switch barrel it's a good pick unless you go with the PredatOBR. Wes Grant (MSTN) got one of the first released and loves it. He'll be getting a 6.5 barrel made for his.
To me the EMC / ECC is the softer shooting gun on the list. The JP feels the same or better.

Great feedback. Thank You!!

[Spiffav8]

Anyone own, or have experience with a Springfield M1A National Match or M21? Wondering how that would stack up against some of the others discussed here.

Really appreciate the input guys. Please keep the info coming!!

[Papa Zero Three]

Anyone own, or have experience with a Springfield M1A National Match or M21? Wondering how that would stack up against some of the others discussed here.

Really appreciate the input guys. Please keep the info coming!!


IMO, it's not in the same league as what has been mentioned. They have their own following and people who shoot them but you can end up pouring a lot of money into it just to get it to shoot decently when many of the mentioned weapons fire better right out of the box.

[Peregrino]

Anyone own, or have experience with a Springfield M1A National Match or M21? Wondering how that would stack up against some of the others discussed here.

Really appreciate the input guys. Please keep the info coming!!

The search button is your friend. That dead horse has already been flogged into hamburger.

[TRU]

Anyone own, or have experience with a Springfield M1A National Match or M21? Wondering how that would stack up against some of the others discussed here.

Really appreciate the input guys. Please keep the info coming!!

As posted above, it's been talked about quite a bit, but in my opinion it's kind of outdated. I love the platform, but when you start putting it in an EBR or other type of stock, you're talking some serious cash, serious weight, and (in my experience) a serious PITA. They're great guns, just not quite on par with what you are currently looking at. For precision 762 guns, I personally would recommend a 700P or 700PSS or build a 700 and put it in an AI, McMillan, HS, etc. stock.

The LaRue is a good gun, but it's $$. I don't like the SR25, and don't have trigger time on the others. I do, however, have trigger time on a CMMG, Mega Arms MA-Ten, and Black Rain matched upper/lower. All were custom guns, but I was pleased with all three.

[longrange1947]

Have quite a bit of time on the M21/M1A in both competition and re world. You are comparing a Model A to modern sports car. They have problems holding zero and placing them in fancy stocks does not solve that basic problem. For a battle rifle, the M14 was great, there were better, for an accuracy weapon, not so much.

Peregino, thought I would add a bit more hamburger to the pile. :D

[hueygunner]

You might take a look at the CMMG 308

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=374490952

http://www.cmmginc.com/product_p/38aea9a.htm

Has the Geissele trigger, key mod rail, MB, and SS barrel. For $1800 it's not a bad price.


I have the CMMG 308 with an 18" SS barrel and I love it. I shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards with my hand loads and 1/2" groups with Federal GMM, and the only mods I have done are a two-stage match trigger and a nice 10x scope.

Anyone own, or have experience with a Springfield M1A National Match or M21? Wondering how that would stack up against some of the others discussed here.

Really appreciate the input guys. Please keep the info coming!!

I had an LRB M14SA (a non-Springfield M1A), glass bedded, gas tuned, match trigger, and a whole host of other mods to get it into match shooting shape, and I had to have at least $2500 in that gun.

The 308 ARs are just inherently accurate, so you can start shooting well right out of the box. I concur that a replacement trigger is a MUST if you get the DPMS - coupled with a nice optic, you'll be in business. You can then upgrade other things down the road.

[frostfire]

Gentlemen,

I find myself wanting to do some precision and longer distance shooting. I have been doing a lot of reading on the various platforms out there for this and honestly don't know which way to go. I have a short list and was hoping that you could offer some feedback/input as I know many of you may have used some of rifles that are I am considering. My motto is "buy once, cry once" so I don't mind spending a bit to get the right one. There are limits to that though. Here's my short list....and I am not intending for this to be a "VS" type thread. Just likes, dislikes, pluses and minuses and things to look out for.

Respectfully,

SpiffAV8

Knights Armament SR25 ECC

LMT LM308MWSF

LaRue PredatOBR

SIG SAUER SIG716

FWIW, often overlooked in the pursuit for precision shooting using AR platform is the time and dedication required to drive a gas gun to its max potential. I was right where you are at few years back, and have spent more $$$ and time to just barely make the OBR a part of the body and extension of the will, compared to if I had started with a solid bolt platform like the TRG. Furthermore, that state of proficiency is so very perishable...I mean from stacking 10 rds < 1MOA < 1min to having a "precision" scatter gun:boohoo
So make sure you count that cost and have no regret.

Having said that,I concur with much that had been said:
- SIG 716 can use trigger replacement. Other than that, surprisingly capable to get sub-MOA with FGMM and it's more competitive price-wise than LWRC, POF, and other piston platform
- No experience with LMT
- No experience with GAP10. Now that George includes the adjustable gas block, it's more and more attractive than OBR though. Also keep in mind Larue does not do mil discount anymore...
- OBR is dead solid sub-MOA gasser. You can cancel the order right on shipping day, because another buyer would line up for it. I'm still irritated I shot the SR25 test rifle at 37 into smaller 1 hole 4-5 rds group than my OBR, though :D Right, Rick? I forgot what excuse we came up with. Perhaps something along the line of rifle/barrel break-in :D
- I defer SR25 to those who've used them day in-day out, and had to deal with QC consistency

[Spiffav8]

Guys I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the information. It's got me thinking and asking the right questions. Today I ran into a good friend that I haven't seen for awhile. The man knows his guns! So of course I started asking a ton of questions. He has offered to help me build one. We are going to put a together a parts list and I'll post it up here for and you all can let me know what you think.

Thanks guys!!

[Spiffav8]

Have quite a bit of time on the M21/M1A in both competition and re world. You are comparing a Model A to modern sports car. They have problems holding zero and placing them in fancy stocks does not solve that basic problem. For a battle rifle, the M14 was great, there were better, for an accuracy weapon, not so much.

Peregino, thought I would add a bit more hamburger to the pile. :D


Kind of thought that might be the case, but figured it would be worth exploring as an option. Right now Springfield is offering FFL employees 1 rifle and 1 hand gun at 20% below dealer cost and that got me thinking M21/M1A. I'll pass on the rifle, but I think I'll get a 1911 TRP. A buddy has one and I really like it. I have their "Loaded" model and have shot them side by side. The TRP is just a bit nicer....and who couldn't use another 1911. ;)

[Spiffav8]

For long range precision shooting I too suggest a bolt action rifle. There are also better rounds than 308 for long range shooting.

What EXACTLY do you want to do with the rifle? Punch paper or hunt?

What is your budget?

How far do you want to shoot?

Do you reload or use factory ammo.

I do want a quality bolt gun for my collection, but prefer semi auto at the moment. When it comes time for the bolt gun, I'll explore caliber.

I'd like to do both, Punch paper and Hunt.

Budget is around 5k max

Distance 800 to 1000

I currently use factory rounds and save my brass as I am planning on getting into reloading.

Thanks for the info man. Greatly appreciate it.

[Spiffav8]

FWIW, often overlooked in the pursuit for precision shooting using AR platform is the time and dedication required to drive a gas gun to its max potential. I was right where you are at few years back, and have spent more $$$ and time to just barely make the OBR a part of the body and extension of the will, compared to if I had started with a solid bolt platform like the TRG. Furthermore, that state of proficiency is so very perishable...I mean from stacking 10 rds < 1MOA < 1min to having a "precision" scatter gun:boohoo
So make sure you count that cost and have no regret.

Having said that,I concur with much that had been said:
- SIG 716 can use trigger replacement. Other than that, surprisingly capable to get sub-MOA with FGMM and it's more competitive price-wise than LWRC, POF, and other piston platform
- No experience with LMT
- No experience with GAP10. Now that George includes the adjustable gas block, it's more and more attractive than OBR though. Also keep in mind Larue does not do mil discount anymore...
- OBR is dead solid sub-MOA gasser. You can cancel the order right on shipping day, because another buyer would line up for it. I'm still irritated I shot the SR25 test rifle at 37 into smaller 1 hole 4-5 rds group than my OBR, though :D Right, Rick? I forgot what excuse we came up with. Perhaps something along the line of rifle/barrel break-in :D
- I defer SR25 to those who've used them day in-day out, and had to deal with QC consistency

With you already having traveled this road...we may need to talk a bit more. I am going to look into building one with the help of a friend who knows his stuff. I'll post up the build sheet soon.

[Spiffav8]

Well....after some discussion, study and comparison....I bought a NEMO Tango 8. It has a nice list of parts and great reviews. It's price is comparable to others in it's class as well. It should be here in a day or two and I am looking forward to range time with it. A buddy has offered to lone me a very nice Scope, till I can get one of my own. Should be fun.

Thanks for all the help guys! I really appreciate it.