On the Run

[The Reaper]

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

[Streck-Fu]

I grab the bag and my AR because it wins the ammo quantity/weight contest. I'd take 190 rounds of ammo because that is what I will have already loaded.
The alternative is the M1 Carbine but it lacks the range and accuracy.
2nd alternative is the Garand which has range and power in spades but weight and stripper clips are the drawbacks.

Is my destination fixed or am I just trying to get 100 miles away in any direction? I ask because I can move NE and avoid highways and major roads. Any other direction has me crossing interstates within 20 miles.

[The Reaper]

I grab the bag and my AR because it wins the ammo quantity/weight contest. I'd take 190 rounds of ammo because that is what I will have already loaded.
The alternative is the M1 Carbine but it lacks the range and accuracy.
2nd alternative is the Garand which has range and power in spades but weight and stripper clips are the drawbacks.

Is my destination fixed or am I just trying to get 100 miles away in any direction? I ask because I can move NE and avoid highways and major roads. Any other direction has me crossing interstates within 20 miles.

You select the destination.

The distance has more to do with making for a reasonable load and requiring foraging/hunting/fishing as well as defense and necessitating several days and nights of movement.

No handgun or hunting weapons?

Not saying right or wrong, just trying to see your logic.

TR

[BryanK]

I live 1 block from a major waterway (Potomac river) and I have access to a boat. Will we be assuming these hooligans have a small navy? If so, I will be taking the river anyway with the wife at the helm, and me on the 700PSS. I'd also take my .22 rifle (semi-auto Marlin) and my M9 for any potential hunting needs or threats once we hit land again. Rations are covered, and we'd head north appx 100 miles to the folks house.

Once we hit land, it would be roughly a 20 mile hike after running up feeder streams/creeks. Not too bad.

[The Reaper]

For the purposes of this thread, it really doesn't matter what your plan is, how far it is, how you plan to get there, or where you plan on going, as long as you can quickly collect and take gear that will reasonably get you through a week to ten days of cross-country tactical movement in potentially hostile territory. You are allowed to engage hostiles, as you deem necessary.

The intent is to discuss weapons choices and possibly bug out bag contents.

I would expand the scenario to include guys stationed in theater, but their weapons selections would be significantly more limited. If there is interest, I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

TR

[Streck-Fu]

You select the destination.

Ok, I'll choose 100 miles NE as it is far less populated and no major highways to be spotted crossing. There are several waterways as well to replenish water or fish from.


No handgun or hunting weapons?

I thought of the handgun as a given so to define it, make it a G17 with 4 magazines. As for a hunting weapon, you can't hunt game with an AR? ;) I handload 65gr Sierra Gameking which will work well for game and 2 legged varmint. And .223/5.56 can be replenished easily if necessary.

I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

Because that thread exists, I did not rehash bag contents.

[The Reaper]

Ok, I'll choose 100 miles NE as it is far less populated and no major highways to be spotted crossing. There are several waterways as well to replenish water or fish from.

I thought of the handgun as a given so to define it, make it a G17 with 4 magazines. As for a hunting weapon, you can't hunt game with an AR? ;) I handload 65gr Sierra Gameking which will work well for game and 2 legged varmint. And .223/5.56 can be replenished easily if necessary.

Because that thread exists, I did not rehash bag contents.

Yes you can hunt with an AR, but I would not want to have to rely on it to stop a deer (or a bear, for that matter). It is an excellent anti-personnel weapon, is reasonably reliable, compact, accurate, relatively lightweight, and spare parts/mags/ammo are common.

To my logic, the primary purpose of the handgun would be to provide a back-up to the primary weapon in the event of a stoppage. Secondarily would be to harvest small game or dispatch small targets more quietly than the rifle.

Hey, just my perspective, anyone with a better one, I would like to hear it. Share the best practices and examine some alternative thinking. Rational dissenting opinions are welcome.

TR

[Sdiver]

Funny you brought this up T.R. I've thought about this scenario a few times already. :D

I have the luxury of living right next to the foothills, SW of D-town Denver, and there are several bike trails and greenbelts by my place which lead up into the hills, so I have a few routes already planned. ("Wolverines" ;) ) I know of several caves and abandoned mines further up into the hills, so that would be a likely destination. Some are close to streams and small ponds (although I wouldn't count on the ponds being "fresh" next to the mines, but it is a water source).

Along with my bug out bag, the weapons I would grab would be:
Side arm: 1911 with 161 rounds. Two 50 round boxes, and eight mags ... 4 eight round and 4 seven round.
My M&P 15 with seven 30 round mags = 210 rounds (along with three empty mags)
The Garand with 80 rounds (ten clips) for the "far reaching" effect an M1 has.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'd also grab my Mossberg 500, along with two boxes of bird shot (one box of #7 and one box of #9), a box of slugs, and a box of 00. (twenty rounds each box).

I have a nice 5.11 "fanny pack" that I can fit the six 5.56 mags, the boxes of ammo and 1911 mags in, and still have room, which I can put in a cleaning kit for all weapons, along with some rags for quick wipe downs.

I know this sounds (looks) like a lot to hump up hill, but I always thought/planned, I could stash the fanny pack and one or two long guns, off trail, scout ahead, drop off what I've brought up, go back to the "stash, retrieve that and just "leap frog" as needed.

[bubba]

The trade offs of rifle v pistol:

Rifle / Carbine

Up Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple of folks, I have the advantage. If a deer etc is spotted, I am gonna eat well for a while.

Down Sides: I am an instant target to anyone who spots me. Ammo is heavy and may slow me down. I may feel like I can whip anyone and bight off more than I can chew.

Pistol

Up Sides: Small, light, and concealed. I can defend myself against an armed threat. If I am carrying a smaller caliber weapon, smaller "game" like dogs become a possibility. I am traveling light and "among the fish".

Down Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple folks, I am likely to be way out gunned. I can't take mid sized game.

Yup, my personnel conclusion for most situations is to only have a pistol, likely a 9mm Glock. My ability to move incognito is my greatest strength as a singleton. If possible, I would move to a safe location and recover a cache with a long gun or 2, but only if I was in a place where I could make friends and influence others / await pickup from a larger force that is on the way.

The only glaring excetpion would be somewhere like Somalia or Yemen where EVERYONE has an AK. Then, I'd definitely have one and 3-5 mags.

Just my thoughts.

[The Reaper]

100 miles all around me is nothing but flat cornfields dotted mostly with small farm towns. Its growing season but the corn isn't yet my height. Deer are present in the occasional draw. Possum, raccoon, rabbit, squirrel are plentiful. I'll go south, since it puts me further away from Chicago and it's suburbs.

Night travel.

Agree with Streck's AR and ammo selection.

Map and Silva compass. It can be a long way between landmarks, and cornfields can all start to look the same at night. Also a map case. Summer showers tend to be heavy.

Military issue bivy cover. Its hot here at the moment, even at night. Why carry something heavier?

Fjallkniven TK4 folder. Light, small enough when folded, heavy duty enough to disassemble anything up to a deer.

Roll of snare wire. Been hunting smaller game here with it since I was a kid.

Blastmatch firestarter & Wetfire tinder - light, all weather, 3x the heat of a match.

Doc:

Good plan.

I would prefer to bug out with a few more items. Personally, the categories of gear I would consider for mostly year round survival are:

Ruck/carrying bag must be light, durable, and contain/carry the following categories of items:

Fire starting and fuel- For fire in a semi- or non-permissive environment
Water container, collection, storage, and purification
Shelter or materials for dry, insect-free, and warmth
Cordage - Line, wire, tape, glue
Tools - Shelter building, firewood collecting, game prep, construction, repair
Signaling - As needed, probably less given the threat. Would pull the cell battery or ditch the phone, BTW.
First Aid - Trauma and general survival health
Food - Carried, hunting, trapping, fishing, cooking, seasonings, salt
Navigation - Map, compass, and possibly GPS
Lighting - Headlamp and handheld or weapon light
Clothing - Rain/cold weather gear, socks, and underwear, possibly spare shoes/boots
Cash? No checks, credit, or debit cards, obviously

Just a few thoughts. Obviously, this is not a Lewis and Clark type adventure, but a day or two without water, food, or a dry warm place will suck.

Also, I would note that you could build a summer BoB and a Winter BoB, or just swap and add items to your bag as necessary. I probably couldn't remember to do that, so I guess I would be dumping unneeded items at the first halt. Yet another reason to keep the weapons loadout light.

Funny you brought this up T.R. I've thought about this scenario a few times already. :D

I have the luxury of living right next to the foothills, SW of D-town Denver, and there are several bike trails and greenbelts by my place which lead up into the hills, so I have a few routes already planned. ("Wolverines" ;) ) I know of several caves and abandoned mines further up into the hills, so that would be a likely destination. Some are close to streams and small ponds (although I wouldn't count on the ponds being "fresh" next to the mines, but it is a water source).

Along with my bug out bag, the weapons I would grab would be:
Side arm: 1911 with 111 rounds. Two 50 round boxes, and eight mags ... 4 eight round and 4 seven round.
My M&P 15 with seven 30 round mags = 210 rounds (along with three empty mags)
The Garand with 80 rounds (ten clips) for the "far reaching" effect an M1 has.

I know this sounds crazy, but I'd also grab my Mossberg 500, along with two boxes of bird shot (one box of #7 and one box of #9), a box of slugs, and a box of 00. (twenty rounds each box).

I have a nice 5.11 "fanny pack" that I can fit the six 5.56 mags, the boxes of ammo and 1911 mags in, and still have room, which I can put in a cleaning kit for all weapons, along with some rags for quick wipe downs.

I know this sounds (looks) like a lot to hump up hill, but I always thought/planned, I could stash the fanny pack and one or two long guns, off trail, scout ahead, drop off what I've brought up, go back to the "stash, retrieve that and just "leap frog" as needed.

I like your loadout, if I had a vehicle, but you would have over fifty pounds of guns and ammo, exclusive of any of the other necessities. I would not want to be humping close to 100 pounds of gear up those hills at that altitude, especially with the cold weather burden. Leap frogging means humping twice the distance, for twice the time. You may be able to do it though, but I think it is tactically unsound. Hard to speed reload from a fanny pack, too.

The trade offs of rifle v pistol:

Rifle / Carbine

Up Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple of folks, I have the advantage. If a deer etc is spotted, I am gonna eat well for a while.

Down Sides: I am an instant target to anyone who spots me. Ammo is heavy and may slow me down. I may feel like I can whip anyone and bight off more than I can chew.

Pistol

Up Sides: Small, light, and concealed. I can defend myself against an armed threat. If I am carrying a smaller caliber weapon, smaller "game" like dogs become a possibility. I am traveling light and "among the fish".

Down Sides: If I get in a fight with a couple folks, I am likely to be way out gunned. I can't take mid sized game.

Yup, my personnel conclusion for most situations is to only have a pistol, likely a 9mm Glock. My ability to move incognito is my greatest strength as a singleton. If possible, I would move to a safe location and recover a cache with a long gun or 2, but only if I was in a place where I could make friends and influence others / await pickup from a larger force that is on the way.

The only glaring excetpion would be somewhere like Somalia or Yemen where EVERYONE has an AK. Then, I'd definitely have one and 3-5 mags.

Just my thoughts.

Bubba, you are the opposite of Sdiver.

I would be concerned about the range limitations and game gathering ability of a 9mm pistol, but you have a plan, have been through SERE, and I respect your perspective.

One additional consideration would be that you could break down a short M-4 and stuff it in your pack, only needing to reinstall the upper and load it to be able to use the carbine.

Your loaded Glock 9mm with a holster is roughly two pounds. The carbine (M-4 or AK), with normal accessories of an optic, mount, sling, etc. and 3-4x30 rd. mags would add another 12-14 pounds.

Big difference, but you have limited yourself to fairly small game under 50 meters range, and very limited defenses other than stealth and avoidance.

TR

[Streck-Fu]

Yes you can hunt with an AR, but I would not want to have to rely on it to stop a deer (or a bear, for that matter).

Does this scenario require us to sustain ourselves for a longer period after arriving at the 100 mile distance?

[Team Sergeant]

Does this scenario require us to sustain ourselves for a longer period after arriving at the 100 mile distance?

No, you quit & die when you reach the 100 mile mark......:rolleyes:

Now go do pushups until I'm tired....

[Surgicalcric]

I love these threads...

[The Reaper]

Does this scenario require us to sustain ourselves for a longer period after arriving at the 100 mile distance?

You never know.

Plan for the basics, then look for possible additional requirements. Be prepared.

In this case, I think your back and your environment (to some degree) will be your limiting factors.

What do you need versus want, and how much of the needs can you carry and fight with?

Good comments, all.

TR

[Go Devil]

My home is 20 feet from the major river that runs through my state all the way to the Ohio.
Kayaks will be the go to choice with plenty of dry storage and lashing points as well as tackle and rods. Movement is under cover of darkness with plenty of creeks and islands to cover day light shelter.
We routinely camp by hammock with plenty of camoflage rain flys.
Portages are known and will take place 2am-4am.

I will pull the AR and the .22, my wife will pull the M1A and the single shot 12 gauge with barrel inserts.

Large ALICE is packed with each of our clothing changes as well as stripped MRE's
3 day pack carries navigation, communication, illumination, weapon maintenance, minor medical as well as sealed battle packs for noted firearms.

Plenty of fish and game along the way.

[The Reaper]

Good plan, GD.

I am thinking that 15-20 pounds of arms and ammo is going to be about the limit, given the distance and load of other priority items.

I also believe that some people have no concept of reality, and that there are a huge number of liars on the internet.

This was posted on another forum, amd I found it humorous.

IMHO, this individual is not a SOF medic, and has never actually assembled the items he lists in such detail, and has certainly never tried to carry this all at once.

In fact, he likely has a handicapped placard and refuses to go in any store where he has to walk more than 50 feet to the entrance. He couldn't hump this load across the Wally World parking lot, even with the assistance of his motorized scooter. He will need a bugout deuce and a half.

Should be easy to track though, from the drag marks, discarded items, and empty candy wrappers.


I have included my medical list for just me and 1 out of every 2 will have this as well in our group in case we get seperated. I am also including my list of clothing and BOB items but this is not all my bug out supplies.
Along with it all, 5 cases of MRE's per person minimum so thats 2 meals/day per person/for 1 month to start out. The bold letters at the end is for the stores or online sites I got it all and there is a legend at the top of my main list for my group to follow I did not include. Anyone wanting a more comprehensive list, send it to me here ,your email list and I will send you a PDF with all my things. One thing I did not add here was at Amazon.com for $11.83 I bought the medical reference manual Special Operations Forces Medical handbook, 2011 printing and placed it in a 1 gallon zip lock bag for in my BOB. I was an SOF medic and civilian medic for over 12 years and I highly recommend this in your bag.
Here is it:
CLOTHING:
1- pair warm weather boots BIG5 and 1 pair of cold weather hiking boots. SW
3- pairs of wool socks. SODOSU
1- pair jeans HOME/WAL
1- set of quick dry shorts. REI
2- cotton tshirts. SODOSU
1- performance shirt REI
2- sets of underwear. HOME/WAL
2- pairs of tops/bottoms bdu's. SODOSU
1- set thermal underwear (tops/bottoms). SODOSU
1- hooded sweatshirt dark colored. HOME/WAL
1- goretex liner jacket with attached hood ( no button or zipper attached). REI
1-1/4 zip fleece pullover. HOME/WAL/REI
1- tactical belt. CTD
1- set of raingear (tops/bottoms). SODOSU
1- waterproof booney hat. SPG
1- face-mosquito netting. FED A/N
1- 4 in 1 fleece hat SPG
2- army towels FED A/N
2- chamois towels


TACTICAL BELT EQUIPMENT (LCE): (set up in case you are seperated from BOB)
1- LCE pistol belt and "H" suspenders FED A/N
1- Taurus 24/7 G2 (.45 cal.) pistol DGS with thigh holster that carries an extra mag. on right side CTD
1- .223 AR-15
1- Taurus PT709 (9mm) pistol DGS with holster concealed on right side above .45 holster. SW
1- Remington 30.06 rifle with scope, bipod, 2 metal mags CTD, 1 buttstock mag CTD and sling CTD
10 ft-paracord (550 cord) braided around rifle sling for added 550 cord CTD
2-4 energy bars REI
2-m16 ammo pouches used for carrying items FED A/N
2-D ring caribiners (high weight strength) REI
1 tactical flashlight (Fenix TK15 337 Lumens) REI
1- multitool (Leatherman) CTD
1-magnesium firestarter HF
4- 12 hour lights sticks FED A/N
1-P51 or P38 FED A/N
1-foil emergency blanket FED A/N
1-tritium military compass with pouch CTD
1- SOG knife with sheath "SEAL revolver" (saw tooth/ 1/2 serrated)
1- SOG knife "Trident" (1/2 serrated, black tini, folding, locking)
rei knife sharpener (Item # 670968)
rei knife shealth (for the Trident) Rainbow of California Knife Case - Large (Item # 409215)
1- triple molle mag holster on left rear of belt (+1-.45 cal/+2- 9mm mags) CTD
1- 40 oz hydration pack IMS, water purifier tabs REI
1-folded area map in ziplock bag FED A/N
2- pepperspray tubes,comes with leather pouch HF
1-BUTT PACK (FED A/N) for first aid items: 1 mre (FED A/N), 1- surgical kit SPG, 25g quicklot (REI), trauma bandage, various band aids,sunscreen, lip balm, medical tape, antiseptic, neosporin, 1 hemastat, small surgical scissors, tweezers HF, small bottle/tube peroxide, 4" x 4" moleskin, hand sanitizer, 3 ft surgical tubing, chewable antacids/pepto/antinausea tabs, asa, ib, tylenol, 3 safety pins(lg), ace bandage, cravat(sling), steristrips, nobite, laminated foldouts on various topics like edible plants etc. SW


INSIDE RIFLE BUTTSTOCK:
2- cigar tubes with 30ft line wrapped on each. HOME
crimpon leads and fishing hooks. HOME
1-small candle.
1- magnesium firestarter. HF
1- lighter. HOME
waterproof matches.


1-GOBAG (BOB):
200 rds of 9mm ammo, 200 rds of .45 cal. ammo, 100 rds of 30.06 ammo SW
1- nightvision scope (Night Owl Optics style#NOXM50)
1- rope bag (IMSplus #RP8170)
30 ft min climbing rope in bag REI
1-topo maps of area in roll-up military map case FED A/N/ REI
1- 3 part army sleeping bag in compression pack FED A/N
1- inflatable pillow REI
1- tent (Catoma Stealth 1 woodland camo) FED A/N
1- BigAgnes sleeping pad REI
1- poncho liner (army blanket) HOME/FED A/N
1- tarp (dark colored) HF
1-magnesium firestarter HF
100 ft 550 cord CTD
12- tarp clips CTD
5- light sticks (12 hour min each) green only FED A/N
1- headlamp REI
1- set of waterproof bino's REI
1- pair of night vision binos AMZ
1- solar rechg panel on outside of go-bag
2- disposable foil survival blankets FED A/N
handful of wetnaps
1- roll black duct tape HF
1- magnifying glass for multi uses HF
3- disposable lighters HF
2- 9 volt batteries
1- pile of steel wool HF
3- flattened rolls of toilet paper HOME
1- MSR EX water filter with 1-2 extra ceramic filters REI
2-small sewing kits
2- hand towels FED A/N
1-chg'd 2 way radios with code names written on backs (Wendy has other set)
1-HAM radio set with booklet and license
1-hand garden shovel (small) instead of etool FED A/N
1-flask for favorite sipping alcohol (use also for fires,antiseptic,pain relief, bartering etc) SPG
1-army rucksack waterproof bag for the bob FED A/N
6-REM oil wipes for weapons cleaning
1-poncho for over pack and self FED A/N
1-field guide to edible plants
1- medical handbook (SF)
4 ft surgical tubing (for catching water from tarp to fill)
1-toiletries kit SPG
1- waterbob (holds 100 gallons) CTD
1- P95 respirator HF with 6 extra set of filters
1- set of marine flares with/without parachutes (preferably 6 flares min)
2- tubes of superglue HF
2- sets of shoe/boot laces FED A/N
1-spare pair of cheap sunglasses HF
1- 6-person tent (mom and I) SW
1- aluminum cot REI
1- 5x land periscope SPG
2- sets of superfeet for boots REI





WEAPONS:
1- Taurus 24/7 G2 (.45 cal.) pistol with thigh holster that carries an extra mag. on right side
1- Taurus PT709 (9mm) pistol with holster concealed on right side above .45 holster.
1- Remington 30.06 rifle with scope, bipod, 2 metal mags, 1 buttstock mag and sling
1- .223 AR-15 with
200 rds of 9mm ammo, 200 rds of .45 cal. ammo, 100 rds of 30.06 ammo, 6 .223/ 30- round magazines filled with ammo
1- bottle gun oil inside ziplock bag
1- gun cleaning kit for all weapons (tbd on items)

EDIBLES:
6- mre meals FED A/N
1- camelback-like hydration bag (holds at least 1 litre)(which is 100 oz) REI
1- pkg of water purifying tabs REI
1- p38 or P51 can opener FED A/N
6- indiv. desert MRE's
1- mess kit
several powdered gatorade or electrolyte packets to add water to

MEDICAL:
2- medicbags FED A/N
1- surgical kit SPG
1- old pair glasses or contacts AND its supplies
1- pair of sunglasses HF
1- pocket sized basic first aid book
1- cpr pocket mask keychain size CTD
6- pairs of surgical heavyduty gloves HF
Related meds (can be in ready status as currently being used)
12" x 12" moleskin
1- small bottle baby powder or other powder if allergic
assorted bandaids in ziplock bag
1- pair of trauma scissors HF
1- pair of tweezers,nail file, nail clippers HF
3- pairs hemastats (various sizes from small to long handled) HF
1- small bottle rubbing alcohol (in ziplock bag)
1- bottle peroxide
2- large trauma bandages FED A/N
1-rolled padded/aluminum split
1- roll medical tape
assorted sterile bandages (gauze pads) in ziplock bag
2- rolls elastic bandage for sprains (ace bandages)
1- antidiarrheal meds
1-cold meds
painkillers (ASA (nonenteric coated), Tylenol, and IB)
1-antiseptic tube (like betadine)
1-tube neosporin
1-no-bite tube
1- calamine lotion in ziplock
3- disposable razor blades
2-3 bags/pkgs of insta-klot for hemmohrage (at least 1 pkg/use per person) REI
1- bottle burn treatment spray or lotion for severe burns
1-bottle sunscreen (at least 30 spf)
2- sunscreen lip balm
1- medium bottle of visine like fluids in ziplock bag
1- bottle of newskin
1-poison ivy cream
1-antacids
1-analog thermometer
1-manual bp cuff
1-stethascope
1- extractor snake bite kit
1- bottle benadryl (tablets preferably)
3 ft surgical tubing
1-tube hydrocortisone cream
1- pepto tablets
1- medium size plastic bottle hand sanitizer
1-roll clingy nonstick tape
1-pkg steristrips,butterflies
2- maxi pads
4-tampons
6-ammonia inhalants
5- suture kits various sizes
1- set dental picks HF
1- scalpel with 30 disposable blades
syringes of multiple sizes
1-epipen for beestings etc.


DOCUMENTS:
copies of all documents in ziplock bags
drivers license, CWP, passport, credit/debit cards, ssn card
bartering metals of silver and/or gold in any increments
paper cash in small increments no higher than $50.00 (min $20.00), mostly 1's and 5's. various FM's (field manuals for ref)

Really?

TR

[Sdiver]

I like your loadout, if I had a vehicle, but you would have over fifty pounds of guns and ammo, exclusive of any of the other necessities. I would not want to be humping close to 100 pounds of gear up those hills at that altitude, especially with the cold weather burden. Leap frogging means humping twice the distance, for twice the time. You may be able to do it though, but I think it is tactically unsound. Hard to speed reload from a fanny pack, too.

TR

You are correct Sir, in that it does (and it is) sound like a lot. I tend to do that, "over prepare". That's why I love these threads. Let's me rethink and reevaluate my "plan(s)"

One thing I did neglect to mention is, along the routes that I've more or less looked at, there will be plenty of four legged transportation that I'd be passing. Aside from deteriorating political polices, Colorado is also know for it's huge horse populations. I know hangings are too good for horse thieves, but ..... This is one of "The Reaper's" famous survival threads. One that gets one thinking, so it's pretty much, all bets are off. It's survival of the fittest time baby. :D

This is the bag I was referring to ....

http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-bailout-bag-earth.html?gclid=CJnauIPz-LgCFYtDMgodFBMAYw

Yeah I called it a fanny pack, but I used to wear mine over the shoulder so it would hang on my hip, and when I did wear it as a "fanny pack", I could always pull it around to the front. I used to use it as a quick medical grab bag, when I worked stand-by.

Yes of course the (my) load would change with the weather. I went with thinking what I would grab at "This particular time". Currently here, it's partly cloudy, temps in the mid 80's, lows in the 50's, and continued to be like this for the next 5 days. Now turning to sports ..... Aw crap, sorry.
Didn't even think what it would be like in December, or March, or October, ect.
Thank you for pointing that out.

I love these threads...

Me too !!!!! :D

[The Reaper]

You are correct Sir, in that it does (and it is) sound like a lot. I tend to do that, "over prepare". That's why I love these threads. Let's me rethink and reevaluate my "plan(s)"

One thing I did neglect to mention is, along the routes that I've more or less looked at, there will be plenty of four legged transportation that I'd be passing. Aside from deteriorating political polices, Colorado is also know for it's huge horse populations. I know hangings are too good for horse thieves, but ..... This is one of "The Reaper's" famous survival threads. One that gets one thinking, so it's pretty much, all bets are off. It's survival of the fittest time baby. :D

This is the bag I was referring to ....

http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-bailout-bag-earth.html?gclid=CJnauIPz-LgCFYtDMgodFBMAYw

Yeah I called it a fanny pack, but I used to wear mine over the shoulder so it would hang on my hip, and when I did wear it as a "fanny pack", I could always pull it around to the front.

Yes of course the (my) load would change with the weather. I went with thinking what I would grab at "This particular time". Currently here, it's partly cloudy, temps in the mid 80's, lows in the 50's, and continued to be like this for the next 5 days. Now turning to sports ..... Aw crap, sorry.
Didn't even think what it would be like in December, or March, or October, ect.
Thank you for pointing that out.

Me too !!!!! :D

Nothing wrong with thinking a plan through with like-minded individuals.

That is a Bail Out Bag, not a fanny pack as generally understood.

Do you plan on carrying a pack saddle too, or are you going to just ask the rancher for one before you take his horse? Horses require rigging to carry loads.

In an environment like yours, I could see having the core three-season BoB, and adding an additional module for winter.

Good plan.


I would be taking Ms Okie with me so for her

AR carbine and .22 pistol.

I would take my Springfield M1A with scope and .22 pistol. I have 2 Ruger MKII semi autos. Given time I might try to improvise a suppressor for both.

While I would do my best to avoid contact, travel at night etc it might happen That is what the AR is for.

The 22 pistols is for taking small game or even deer with a head shot in the right circumstances. Also works in case I have to engage someone quietly.

M1A/M-14

For larger game if needed. Also IF I have to have engage the bad guys I can reach out a ways with the rifle and I prefer to wound one of them at a long distance as possible to slow their pursuit yet it is semi auto and works at closer firefights as well.

I have a water filter for camping that is a must to take along.

figure 200 rounds of 223.

200 rounds of .22 each

200 rounds of 308

Also I would minimize food I took and take more water. I can go longer without food than water but at 8.35 pounds per gallon water weights a lot. Say minimum food rations for 5 days ir power bars etc.

If I was going alone ie Ms Okie was already in a safe area I may trade the M1A for the Carbine but METT-TC come into effect ie who it was and their equipment.

Boots. And this is the most important of all IMHO. A good well broken in pair of boots it the most important with extra socks and foot powder.


Good load plan for your wife.

I would have to consider the openness of the route, opportunities for long-range engagements, and the size of the game before committing to a .308.

The AR with accessories is nine pounds or so, loaded 30 round 5.56 mags roughly a pound each, so seven pounds of ammo. The .22 would be a couple of pounds, and the .22LR ammo about 2 pounds for 200 rounds. She gets 20 pounds of guns and ammo.

For a standard weight stripped M1A, you would have a roughly ten pound rifle, and ammo is 1.5 pounds per 20 round mag. Four more pounds for the pistol and ammo. Your total for your weapons is 29 pounds, plus optics, lights, night vision, cleaning gear, etc. With the 45 pound BoB, your wife is carrying at least 65 pounds, and you 74 pounds. Most females cannot sustain that weight, so you are probably going to have to redistribute the load and carry part of hers.

I take it you live in a dry climate. One gallon per day, and a filled CamelBak bladder is around 100 oz., or just about seven pounds. You cannot carry sufficient water to make the full 100 mile move on foot. Best to take some storage and purification capability, and plan a route that will bring you near water sources when you need them.

If you are a healthy weight, you drop below the calories you are burning, and pretty soon, your body will start to break down.

I agree with your assessment of the importance of boots. And a well-broken in ruck.

Incidentally, if you are being pursued, you should be running a cold camp with no fire and little shelter. The MRE heaters, and a bivvy bag for your sleeping gear or a ground cloth over you might be as good as it gets, and limit your thermal signature. Bring extra clothes to stay warm while sleeping. The move at night plan is a good one, if you are familiar with the terrain and can night land navigate under tactical conditions. Hole up in thick brush or inaccessible terrain and rest during the day. That will cut back on your cold weather concerns as well.

TR

[bubba]

TR, I like the idea of having a short version of a broke-down AR platform. That has a lot of practical survival sense inherently built in.

As to what I'd like to / what I actually keep in my bail out bag:

*) Over the shoulder murse bag (I have one in a dark red color from HSGI)

Nav Stuff:

JOG map (s) of my imiediate area (good for long-range nav)
GPS with map data of the entire section of the country (with 2 sets of spare lithium batteries)
Standard Silva compas

Food / Watter:

1L Nalgene (blue with a spash guard)
Sterie Pen with filter
3-5 Snickers bars (believe it or not, Snickers really does satisfy a LOT of nutritional requirements)
3-5 Packets of Skittles (I just like em...)
Airforce Survival kit gill net (great for fish and birds as well as cammo)
Roll of army issue trip-flare wire

Shelter / Clothing:

Brown Arctertx' hard shell (none issue on purpose)
OD green poncho with 50' of para cord
Space Blanket
Black neck-gator

Fire:

2x Bic Lighters

Knives:

Leatherman Wave
AF Survival knife

Signal:

Plastic signal mirror
Orange aviation pannel marker
....Fire.....
Head-lamp (with 3x sets of batteries and red-lens)

1st Aid:

2x Israeli bandages
Chest seal kit
ET tube
Bottle of Asperine

GP:

$500 Cash in 20s and 10s
Roll of Quarters
5th Group Coin (one from a deployment in the shape of the flash)

What I leave out on purpose:

Cell Phone
Ipad
Credit Cards
ID Cards
Passports
Etc

The one exception is if in a forgin country then the above is ALWAYS on my person

The overall plan is to blend in with the environment to avoid confrontation with either the people looking for you or the people who will remember you. Camoflage is not wearing a mutlicam ghilliesuit carrying a sniper rifle. It is blending in with your surroundings.

[Streck-Fu]

You never know.

Plan for the basics, then look for possible additional requirements. Be prepared.

I only ask because, if known, it alters the plan significantly. If I know that I am evading to a known friend or relative with a secure place, I know that I can pack just for the trip saving weight and improving travel time.
If I am just trying to escape with no idea how long I will have to be on my own, that is a different kit and plan.

I get that some people plan a Bug Out Bag based on the idea they need to survive an indeterminate time in the wild. Others have more than on bag (3 day, 14 day, month, indefinate, for example).

The amount of ammo I carry is dependent on the known or unknown destination as well. Unkown, I will try to carry more.

Also, I don't get dressed without a pocket knife and often have a 5" fixed on my belt (completely legal here and no one notices). These things are pretty much daily wear and a default part of the 'kit'.

In this case, I think your back and your environment (to some degree) will be your limiting factors.

Season and weather is a significant factor as well.

What do you need versus want, and how much of the needs can you carry and fight with?

I'll stick with needs. I may want Jennifer Aniston but I don't think I can convince her to come with me in less than 5 minutes.

[Sdiver]

.... Is there such a thing as an Assistant Bagger?

I believe those are also called Medics/18 Deltas.

At least that's what I've heard. :munchin

[The Reaper]

AF Survival knife

Bubba, you had me right up till there. :D


Doc - No lie, I bet that gear list weighs close to 100 pounds, if not more.

Concur about blending in, even int he woods. Very important.

You might want to signal when you are arriving at your destination, in case they were locked down. Good list and comments, thanks.


Streck - Glad to see that you know the difference between needs and wants. Good feedback, thanks.

[Barbarian]

My AO is fairly populous yet mountainous. Mountains are covered in dense deciduous forest. Streams and springs are plentiful, as are squirrel, coons, opossum, turkey, deer, dogs, and coyotes. I plan to lead my family South into the larger mountains and a certain more secluded town.We will be traveling at night, at the appropriate elevation one should for mountain E&E. Rations consist of dehydrated meals supplemented by wild edibles and hopefully small game.

3-season BoB’s weigh in close to 35 lbs at half water capacity (2 liters). Plus extra socks and feet care items for said distance. In addition to our BoB’s, we will be carrying three 9mm pistols, one Rem700 chambered in 30-06, one AR, and a bangalore. Will list “Bag” contents if any are interested.

Excellent thread, Sir Reaper.

[The Reaper]

My AO is fairly populous yet mountainous. Mountains are covered in dense deciduous forest. Streams and springs are plentiful, as are squirrel, coons, opossum, turkey, deer, dogs, and coyotes. I plan to lead my family South into the larger mountains and a certain more secluded town.We will be traveling at night, at the appropriate elevation one should for mountain E&E. Rations consist of dehydrated meals supplemented by wild edibles and hopefully small game.

3-season BoB’s weigh in close to 35 lbs at half water capacity (2 liters). Plus extra socks and feet care items for said distance. In addition to our BoB’s, we will be carrying three 9mm pistols, one Rem700 chambered in 30-06, one AR, and a bangalore. Will list “Bag” contents if any are interested.

Excellent thread, Sir Reaper.

Great plan. I would only suggest that the pistols all use the same mags, for interchangability.

Careful with the bangalore.:D

TR

[MR2]

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.


Cover(s) for status and cover for action are occasionally war-gamed during family dinners.

I suppose it depends on if the raiders are state sponsored or not. If not, we can hold until relieved.

Firearms are PACE for handguns only. Still short on full complement of defensive ammo, but have enough of ball to backfill. Working on ACE for shotgun and carbines.



I'm in a major urban area. We (spouse and I) have two backpacks (35 & 25lbs.) ready to go. This includes a homeless disguise that will work from dusk to dawn during egress and in appropriate locations during daylight. Dog tracking is a viable concern and contingency has been planned. Multiple routes have been walked and barking dogs noted.

We have access to a friend's (safe) house with stored supplies six blocks away. Those supplies include two mountain bikes with saddlebags prepacked w 40lbs. food/water/gear. Safe house also has a SUV (w bike rack) that I will 'borrow' as necessary.

From there decision to stay vs. move via foot/bike/vehicle will occur.

Within 2 miles of major Interstates running N/S/E/W. Safe house options within/outside metro area w friends/family/unknown are available in multiple locations. Extensive bike trail system exists as well terminating within the city or various wilderness open spaces/parks. May use homeless disguise to reach Interstate and hitchhike out of area.



You do not own anything that you cannot carry at a dead run for as long as you need to!

[sterinn]

My bag is a molle backpack, it's broke in well and fits the shoulders great.

Water:
Low Pro Source 100oz bladder
1 SteriPen Water purifying UV Light +1 set of extra batteries

Tools/Equip:

Primary Weapon-
Carbine AR, aimpoint on larue quick mount and irons.
3 total 30 round magazines, 2 packed in exterior pocket.
*Small amount of lube stored in grip
Magpul Sling Single/Dual Point

Secondary Weapons-
Ruger LCP 380, concealed. 2 magazines
Walther P22 5 magazines

1 Small Folder Knife (Benchmade MelPardue that I always have in my pocket)

1 Multitool -SOG, for misc repairs or an extra blade or two, saw, etc..

1 Med sized fixed blade (SOG Seal Pup) when a small knife isn't enough knife.

1 Gerber Sport Axe, Small enough to carry, light- saw blade knife in the handle, overall used as a cutting/clearing a sleeping area in a thicket and chopping up fuel, last resort self defense.

2 Lighters 1 bic in pocket, 1 micro torch/zippo type
Small bag of Vaseline cotton balls

2' of 100mph tape on a small makeshift spool on my pack shoulder strap- who frikin' knows when you need it.

2 Space Blankets

Food & Clothing:
10-12 power bars
3-4 cans of potted meat (small, salty, and down right good for you, lol)
Jeans, hiking shoes, good duty type belt, light waterproof jacket, camo hat, clear nemesis glasses.
+ a set of UnderArmor if it's fall/winter.

Strategy:
I think making haste and traveling by evening/night is going to yield success in any situation like this. The name of my game is I've got a relatively small area to vacate which would be 2/3 days of very methodical travel using dense cover, barns, sheds, old cars. Then have to trek several miles at once seeking more cover.

Primary/Secondary weapons only utilized as a last resort to either assault or suppress while making an exit. Being seen and detected is avoided at nearly all costs.

If captured or in a close hand to hand fight the hidden lcp 380 could be a life saver.

Walther P22 can be used for small game and birds as the sun is beginning to rise/fall. Most of my terrain to cover that will put me at the most risk will be low and dense creek bottoms so sound would be to my advantage if I need to take a meal w/ the 22. Once the long travel has been made, hunting frequency will rise, seeking larger game, thieving, or being a sneaky opposing force will become more of my game plan as I get farther away from the populous or areas of danger.

[BigJimCalhoun]

If there is interest, I will start another thread (or revive an old one) for E&R bags and contents.

TR

I express interest Sir.

[spherojon]

For Starters:

-Ruger 10/22 Takedown 4.67 Ibs
200 rounds of 22 LR
-Remington 870 Wingmaster 12 gage Magnum pump 28’ about 7 ½ pounds.
40 Rounds of rifled slugs
-Glock 19
38 rounds (19 round magazine)
OC Bear Spray (I know, I know, but it saved my ass vs a pack of wild dogs)
K-Bar
MultiTool

Probably take my SAS Survival Handbook by John Wiseman since I only have limited knowledge from the Boyscouts.

[The Reaper]

MR2:

The reason for the bugout is irrelevant. The point was the weapons selection, and secondarily, the bugout bags.

Living that close to the Interstate would cause serious bugout planning. Glad that you have discussed it.


sterin, good packing list, thanks.


For Starters:

-Ruger 10/22 Takedown 4.67 Ibs
200 rounds of 22 LR
-Remington 870 Wingmaster 12 gage Magnum pump 28’ about 7 ½ pounds.
40 Rounds of rifled slugs
-Glock 19
38 rounds (19 round magazine)
OC Bear Spray (I know, I know, but it saved my ass vs a pack of wild dogs)
K-Bar
MultiTool

Probably take my SAS Survival Handbook by John Wiseman since I only have limited knowledge from the Boyscouts.

I would not take the shotgun afoot except for hunting. While great in the static defense role, the weight of the ammo and limited range make it of questionable value. Just the 40 rounds you listed adds nearly 4 more pounds.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[spherojon]

I would not take the shotgun afoot except for hunting. While great in the static defense role, the weight of the ammo and limited range make it of questionable value. Just the 40 rounds you listed adds nearly 4 more pounds.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

The take-down 10/22 and shotgun are solely for hunting. Its a toss up between my shotgun, my 300 Weatherby (about 10lbs) + Ammo, and my 1957 Marlin 336 30-30 (7 1/2 pounds) + ammo. I am trying to avoid the packs of unknown armed forces. I went with a shotgun because I figured it has a wider use of ammo then the Weatherby and Marlin.

[Peregrino]

The take-down 10/22 and shotgun are solely for hunting. Its a toss up between my shotgun, my 300 Weatherby (about 10lbs) + Ammo, and my 1957 Marlin 336 30-30 (7 1/2 pounds) + ammo. I am trying to avoid the packs of unknown armed forces. I went with a shotgun because I figured it has a wider use of ammo then the Weatherby and Marlin.

A minor point for consideration: rifles and carbines allow you to engage opponents at distance; i.e. in your comfort zone. Shotguns require you to allow them to close into their comfort zone. Personally, I prefer the odds to be a little more lopsided than that. To paraphrase Clint Smith "if you're fighting fair, your tactics suck".

[The Reaper]

Okay, here is my offered solution.

If I anticipated a need for battlefield recovery of ammunition, I would probably take a 16" 5.56x45mm mid-length gas system M-4, with a Trijicon ACOG or a Leupold low mag optic and a red dot backup. Add a .22LR conversion unit and you have what I would call an extremely versatile weapons system. You can successfully engage targets at 400 meters or more, effectively engage in CQB, hunt game up to 200 pounds or so, and easily harvest small game.

Alternately, were I not concerned about recovering ammunition, I would choose to carry the same system in .300 AAC Blackout with a suppressor and have a supersonic equivalent to either .30-30 or 7.62x39 and a heavy subsonic load that is extremely quiet. That would allow the same combat effectiveness along with the ability to take game of several hundred pounds, or to engage close targets quietly without changing anything but the ammunition. Even the mags are the same as 5.56. Quiet is part of keeping a low profile and avoiding unnecessary trouble until you decide to engage.

BTW, a good, solid piston-driven system like the HK or PWS offers a good alternative to the direct impingement gas system Eugene Stoner originally designed.

Weight of either system with the accessories and can would be around ten pounds. I would anticipate five to seven mags of ammo to be adequate for the mission unless heavy contact was anticipated. Five loaded mags and the last sixty rounds on strippers would be a way to shave a little more weight. Total carbine and accessory weight, 15-17 lbs.

It pains me to say it, but the centerfire pistol round that represents the best bang for the ounce for me is a 9x19. I seriously doubt that you would successfully expend more than 50 pistol rounds in combat and in a modern JHP, it provides adequate punch. Obviously, .40 S&W or .45ACP would present better terminal ballistic perfomance, but at a cost of significantly more weight. .45ACP weighs almost twice as much per round as 9x19. A box of 50 rounds of .45ACP weighs more than two pounds without the mags. A pistol, several mags with ammo, and you could be up to four or more pounds for a back-up weapon.

OTOH, if you have a reliable primary weapon, and your back-up only serves as an emergency weapon, a .22LR pistol seems to me to be a viable, weight conscious alternative, primarily for gathering small game, finishing larger game, and for emergency combat use. Shot placement would be key. If you can hit the vital areas, a .22 round beats a sharp stick. Would I prefer a 9mm or a .45? Absolutely. Could I get by with a .22 at less than half the weight? I think so.

There are several good .22LR pistols which can be fitted with suppressors. Total weight of the pistol with the suppressor is less than 1.5 pounds. .22LR ammo weighs roughly one pound per 133 rounds. The .22LR pistol package with pistol, can, a couple of mags, and 100 rounds of ammo would be around 2.5 pounds.

If you were carrying the same caliber weapons and were part of a group, commonality of mags and ammo would be very desirable. Those with non-standard weapons should have a good reason for it. Such as the desire to be able to engage targets at extreme ranges, requiring a heavier, larger caliber rifle.

Total weight of the carbine system and ammo, pistol system and ammo, and a small cleaning kit and lube would be less than 20 pounds.

Just my thoughts, I am sure someone here has an equally good solution. I would say that as long as you are able to successfully hunt and adequately defend yourself with your choice, it was the right one. Unfortunately, in this case, finding out you made the wrong choice has some unpleasant circumstances.

TR

[BryanK]

...The intent is to discuss weapons choices and possibly bug out bag contents.

TR

Roger. First up is my gear followed by the wifes gear

Weapon Choices:

I'd have to take my .308 Rem 700 for stand-off purposes even though it weighs as much as a buick. I'd carry 60 rounds which I think would be sufficient for the short-term. My small take-down .22 Marlin 70P will be slung and I'd carry roughly 200 rounds (100 regular, and 100 very quiet Super Colibri rounds which can kill a squirrel at 30 yards) for it between the pack and wear. M9 hip-holstered with dual drop leg rigs set up to carry my .22 and 9mm mags (helps distribute weight).

ProTech folder knife (auto), and this dinky Smith & Wesson "rescue" knife that has served me well skinning/butchering game without losing it's edge.

Pack:

Camelback, 3 MRE's, a pack or two of crackers, small bag of Fritos (good fire starter) and a loaf of bread. Light and fills you up, plus the bread doubles as bait to catch real bait with. Small first aid kit, 550 cord, small roll of 100mph tape, fishing line, a few sinkers, bobbers, and hooks. I like the idea of snare wire, but my limited experience and lack of time to wait (due to the E&E) would render that moot I think.

Also in the pack would be a sharpening stone, a few ziplocks, a few Bic lighters, a pair of small bino's, E-tool, extra diapers, and a healthy dose of motivation.

Wife's kit:

Baby, baby carrier (front load), Camelback, diapers, pacifier, and a few extra rounds of whatever will fit. I need to keep her light so she doesn't tire out too quickly. An interesting fact for those who don't already know, is that a breast-fed babies shit doesn't stink all that much and will not be detectable by nearby threats (either 2 or 4 legged). It's also a plus not having to lug around formula.

ETA: 2 ponchos and 2 woobies

[FlagDayNCO]

Great topic and some real nice advice/ thoughts bouncing back and forth.

We live in a rural area, but with numerous developments in the region, plus some major highways to cross when we move further away from Filthadelphia. In a SHTF scenario, we expect the city dwellers to fan out into the suburbs, and the suburbs to dig in. Some will E&E.

Our region is open farmland and rolling forested hills. Movement to a 100 mile line would include major river corssings in any direction, so I have planned routes to avoid those crossings.

As we think about E&E, so will many others. State sponsered forces or local groups may take control of key choke points and crossings. One may be a source of additional supplies and ammo, while the other may look to tax yours. Or trade you in if captured.

We have small children that are all elementary school age. This complicates the movement, as they are not Ranger school grads, so we think about where and how to move. Extra weight in bringing items to keep them quiet may be as simple as hard candy, stuffed animals, and maybe some small toys.

The oldest has his own Ruger 10-22, which becomes our game gun. We have several AR types, all same caliber. Spouse and I would take one each, plus I have equipped them with suppressors. Red dots and iron sights. Except for 10-22, all carbines share same ammo and mags for their type. Common operating charecteristics, repairs, parts, etc. Same for pistols.

Go bags with ammo are in vehicles, plus in home. Bicycles can be set to go in a few minutes.

I thought about fully loaded kit, but that may have to be ditched for long range movement. Simple chest harnesses will suffice, plus they can be concealed under a shirt.

Cell phones may go, but inside signal proof bags. We also have an external drive dowloaded with maps from Delorma Gazeteer, plus two paper versions. Can be connected to iPad. These are great, as they show terrain features and other data. Silva compasses in everyone's bags. The boys have "played Army" many times and learned how to navigate. Solar recharge system that can lay on rucksack while we move, or on ground. If hostile force is State sponsored, all the cell devices get left behind.

We have a hand crank radio, so we can gather some type of news about what is happening.

Water bottles and filter systems to gather water on the route. Various candy and protein bars such as Snickers and Cliff. Trial with the boys has learned what they will and will not eat. Convincing a four year old that he must eat something he doesn't like is not to be tested during E&E. Know before you go.

Though we have a couple of ponchos, everyone carries at least one very large, heavy duty contractor type trash bag. The boys have learned to make a shelter and sleeping bags with these.

Several headlamps, first aid to include childrens cold medicine, fire starters and Bic lighters, small axe for firewood/ shelter.

Each boy has his own mini rucksack to carry extra socks and shirts. Nothing to wear them down, plus the real possibility that we may have to carry the two smallest boys. We still have the cloth baby carriers that are essentially long clothes to wrap the child in and front carry them.

We do have friends in the immediate area, plus locations we will go to farther away.

Cash in US currency, plus coins of silver and gold in the event the cash is useless.

In the past, we had ideas we could make it all the way into the mountains of Central PA or down into South West VA. Reality may be that is a bridge too far, so we have developed routes with alternate destinations.

With us, key is to keep the boys healthy and safe. Sick or screaming children can lead the bad guys to us.

I will not go into every item we will carry, as we want to follow the KISS plan and move out.

[Ape Man]

I see that almost everyone is going to take a AR type rifle along with them when they try to escape and evaded. I will be the heretic and argue that taking an AR weapon would be a mistake for me and most other normal people. All I would take is one silenced 22 long rife and 500 rounds of ammo.

I understand that having one weapon means that if that weapon fails you are out of luck. I understand that it is not much of a weapon for defensive purposes. But I think that if I was trying to E&E by myself, trying to bring along defensive equipment would only make it that much more likely that my E&E would fail. And trying to have redundancy is going to make my E&E fail.

I am assuming that I would be escaping on foot and that my pursuers would not have this handicapped. 100 miles in any direction from where I live there is lots of water. Their is also lots of roads. Anytime I make contact, unless I eliminate everyone really fast (not realistic, I am not a professional warrior) is just going to result in a radio call to bring more guys along the roads into blocking positions in a hurry. If E&E does not work, I am dead. If I want to try for a heroic stand I will not start running in the first place.

Given that I have to go 100 miles and given that I am being hunted, I am not going to be gathering a lot of wild food in trip. Also I am going to need to be moving fast. So I am going to take 20 (a href="http://www.mreinfo.com/us/fsr/first-strike-ration.html") First Strike Ration(/a), one Katadyn® Pocket Water Filter, two one quart canteens (finding water is not going to be a problem). One space blanket and enough burlap to make a stand off cover (For disguising IR signature), piano wire (making snares, using wire at neck height poachers have even caught white tailed deer. It is a nasty way for them to die, but not as loud as using a rifle). Fishing line and hooks. One small box of raisins (put small enough hooks in the raisins and turkeys have been known to swallow them). Several ways of making a fire (even though I most likely will not be able to do this until the end of my journey). One box of doggy treats well soaked in radiator fluid (I know well trained tracking dogs will not eat what they find on the trail but it can't hurt to try. They might not all be well trained).

A professional warrior might get some use out of taking an AR on E&E. But most of us are not professional warriors. I read what TR says about recovering ammo and I think to myself "I only wish I was good enough to be in a position to recover ammo while trying to escape."

[Red Flag 1]

My exit would take me to the Appalachin Trail. It is an easy two hour hike from the house. Plenty of game if needed, and plenty of off trail places to seek concealment. I'll stick to arms, for the moment, and say I would bring along my Glock 17 and the six loaded extended mags. For the long gun, I have a Marlin 30-30 lever action wih iron sights only; 150 rounds should see me through. The other choice is my bolt actioon 30-06, with scope; and 150 rounds for it.

The 30-30 gives me an easily carried weapon with good reach, for game and defense. The 30-06 gives me much better reach, and added accuracy with the mounted scope; the down side is that it is not as easy to carry. Both are accurate and reliable in my hands. Which is the better long gun to take? I've ruled out my 870, 12 gauge, and the 22 gauge weapons. Your thoughts, kind sirs..

RF 1

[The Reaper]

IMHO, you guys with infants and young kids are (temporarily) at a huge disadvantage. We do what we have to to care for our loved ones though. I know I didn't understand that attachment till I had kids of my own. OTOH, you have the opportunity to raise them right, and with the skills to survive.

Those asking about the BoB discussion, there are a couple of threads here that cover them, please look around, do some searching, and if you cannot find what you are after, come back here and ask again.

Unless your route offers a lot of opportunities for long range shots and huge danger areas, I believe that the civilian bolt guns will be of limited utility. I would do some serious tactical analysis and terrain study, take a look at the route(s) from various points along the way, and then decide what the appropriate weapons would be. You may find that the terrain keeps engagement ranges within shotgun range, or allows long range shots where you could whittle the enemy down with a long gun and a powerful round and quickly disappear. Most movement over that distance will be a combination, hence the preference for the magazine-fed, semi-auto carbine. The weapon also comes in a variety of rounds that would allow you to tailor the weapon for the METT-T.

The shelter also needs to be designed around the terrain and seasonal conditions you expect to encounter. No point in humping a sleeping bag if the lows are in the 80s.

An axe, a machete, or a kukri may be appropriate for the tasks you expect to encounter. The final choice will be a compromise that you have to live with.

Those who live in cities or close to major highways are going to have a load of challenges.

I agree, if you are on the run, trapping is impractical, unless you are taking a day off to collect food. The gear is so light and so much more efficient that I cannot imagine not taking at least a few feet of snare wire or a couple of pre-made snares.

Ape Man, I think you are selling yourself short. If you are experienced in the woods, trained and tactically competent, you may fare better against a squad of goons with limited field experience than yyou think. Obviously, if you are the only one being pursued, and a large organization can dedicate its full resources to pursuing just you, with drones and electronic surveillance, thermal tracking, etc., we would all be in jeopardy. OTOH, you hurt people chasing you badly enough, they may find less motivation to close with you and take a punch again.

You can quickly and easily drop in a .22LR conversion kit into an M-4 and use that, if noise is a concern. The 10/22 is a nice plinking and squirrel rifle, but you would be very fortunate to hit anyone beyond 50 meters in a vital area that the .22LR would be effective. I would go beyond scavenging ammo to say that the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon. Food for thought, if it came down to that.

I can get near .30-30 performance out of a .300 Blackout, and have 30 round mags or more. The ability to shoot subsonic (in the suppressed rifle) by merely popping in a mag of subsonic ammo is very appealing. For those with an AR/M4/M16 rifle already, the switch consists of nothing more than swapping uppers. The ammo is still a little pricey, but you make the brass out of 5.56 cases, and the bullets are all .30 cal/7.62. The powder for most loads is magnum pistol powder. You can push a 110 gr. projo to 2400 fps. The preferred supersonic load seems to be a 125 gr. bullet at 2215 fps. Surplus M80 Ball 147s run right at 2000 fps, so the round is right up there close to the .30-30 and 7.62x39, and the bullets are more efficient than the RNs of the .30-30 or FMJs of the Soviet M43 round.

RF1, I would take a look at the route before making that decision. If you can't take advantage of the superior range of the .30-06, the .30-30 is quicker till you have to reload.

Great discussion, guys, hope it is as helpful to you as it is to me.

TR

[MR2]

the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon.

The Mosin-Nagant has been killing Americans since 1916. They are now available in large quantities and at low prices. Some are in excellent shape and most are just adequate. None the less, Go Wolverines! :lifter

Great discussion, guys, hope it is as helpful to you as it is to me.

Very much so.

[Buckles]

Okay since the thread is what weapons I wont really go into the pack, I will say beside a good knife and machete, I go with roofing axe instead of a hatchet, they are designed with a hammer head and nail puller, just a little more useful in case you have to deconstruct something and salvage nails.

Now the weapons, first my M4 11.5 barrel with suppressor, topped with an eotech and gunlight, add to that a 2nd uppper with match grade barrel and Leupold 3X12, it will take the same suppressor as well. 120 rounds fo 62g 5.56 on my gun belt and added 120rds in a bandolier in the pack. Add to that 60 rds of Hornady 75g BTHP for the second upper.
2nd would be my SIG P226 in 9mm, two 20rd mags, two 15rd mags. Add to that a .22lr conversion kit for the P226, 1 mag, .22lr suppressor and 200rds of ammo, all of which will fit in a single ammo pouch.

I got what I need it the M4 to protect myself and take larger game as needed, P226 in 9mm for back up to the M4, and the suppressed .22lr to take small game on the movement.

[Badger52]

The Mosin-Nagant has been killing Americans since 1916. They are now available in large quantities and at low prices. Some are in excellent shape and most are just adequate. None the less, Go Wolverines! :lifter
Can't recall where but there was a (very) elderly gent awhile back on some forum that recognized he wasn't gonna be in shape for the <fill-in your favorite> revolution/apocalypse & could only "support." But support he would & went out and bought a boatload of M-N's and enough ammo to provide a couple of platoon's worth of folks a rifle & 60 rounds if they ever need it. Something about quantity having a quality all its own.

[Ape Man]

Ape Man, I think you are selling yourself short. If you are experienced in the woods, trained and tactically competent, you may fare better against a squad of goons with limited field experience than yyou think. Obviously, if you are the only one being pursued, and a large organization can dedicate its full resources to pursuing just you, with drones and electronic surveillance, thermal tracking, etc., we would all be in jeopardy. OTOH, you hurt people chasing you badly enough, they may find less motivation to close with you and take a punch again.

You can quickly and easily drop in a .22LR conversion kit into an M-4 and use that, if noise is a concern. The 10/22 is a nice plinking and squirrel rifle, but you would be very fortunate to hit anyone beyond 50 meters in a vital area that the .22LR would be effective. I would go beyond scavenging ammo to say that the U.S. planned to drop a million unrifled .45ACP Liberator pistols to the resistance movements in Europe, with instructions telling the people who got them to use the pistol to kill an enemy soldier and take his weapon. Food for thought, if it came down to that.

TR

You are the professional, not me. All I know about E&E comes from books. I imagine that you have a lot more practical experience.

The only thing that moved me to comment is contrast between what I read in the history books and what I read in modern survival forums and such. It seems to me that the key difference between people who have escaped throughout history (be they POWs, escaped slaves, or fugitives from justice) is the quality of the people chasing them and the speed at which they are able to move.

If you can make 6 miles a day over rough terrain (i.e. you are not talking any trails and moving through the brush) your pursuers have to cover 113 sq miles if they are not sure which direction you ran. If you can make 8 miles, they have to cover 200 some miles. If you can make 10 miles they will have to cover over 300 miles. Granted, those figures are inflated because those chasing you will have some indication of where you are going. But the fact remains that a small increase in speed will greatly increase the work load on those chasing you.

Most people doing manhunts or looking for lost people first look at a map and try to figure out where it is likely that you will be. If you can get out side of that zone you have a much better chance than if you try to remain undetected within that zone. I think we can all think of a recent fugitive who almost escaped detection from a massive man hunt just because he managed to get a few yards outside of where they thought he would be.

All that was just a long winded way of saying that I think more people will die because they took too much then because they took too little. It is very easy for most of us to imagine situations where we need this or that. It is very hard for us to imagine how much slower a few extra pounds will make us. Most people who make up E&E plans on the internet are focused on covering every eventuality, not on moving as fast as possible while leaving as little trace as possible.

The thought behind my load out was, "How can I move as fast as possible and still sustain myself if I shook pursuit?" In a real situation, I would not take near as much food as I listed. But you said 100 miles so I figured I would be cheating if I took less.

I think given your experience you would be a fool if you did not take an AR. But given history, I suspect most people would be better off shaving every single pound that they possible could and still have a hope of sustaining themselves at the end of the journey.

I hope we never do large scale tests of that theory though.

[Lmmsoat]

If my safe was open and I would have anything thing to grab, it would be my SF medical handbook and anything of value. Handbook to buy goodwill and money to raise an army to defeat said hoard while you guys run for the hills. Guns are tools. Your mind's your weapon. That's just the Green Beret in me talking. Or maybe it's the rum. Probably the rum.

For academics, M4 clone (any type) with.22 conversion, pistol (any type) 9mm Luger. Anything else is dead weight. Sorry honey, didn't mean you.

[BryanK]

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else on the board via the search button, but in this scenario would it be a good idea to acquire one of these?: Colt LE901 (http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtLE90116S.aspx)

I have not handled one, but the versatility of having both a carbine .308 and 5.56 AR platform with only one receiver seems like a good idea. The Bushmaster ACR appeared to me to be too maintenance intensive to quickly change calibers, whereas this seems to be an easier transition. If it can take a run of the mill 5.56 upper I imagine it could take a .22 conversion as well? Does anyone have any experience with this rifle that they would like to share in respect to it being/not being an option for this emergency bug-out?

Here is a youtube video: LE901 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhIOG1n4R_U)

[The Reaper]

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else on the board via the search button, but in this scenario would it be a good idea to acquire one of these?: Colt LE901 (http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtLE90116S.aspx)

I have not handled one, but the versatility of having both a carbine .308 and 5.56 AR platform with only one receiver seems like a good idea. The Bushmaster ACR appeared to me to be too maintenance intensive to quickly change calibers, whereas this seems to be an easier transition. If it can take a run of the mill 5.56 upper I imagine it could take a .22 conversion as well? Does anyone have any experience with this rifle that they would like to share in respect to it being/not being an option for this emergency bug-out?

Here is a youtube video: LE901 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhIOG1n4R_U)

You would need another upper for 5.56, with the bolt carrier and charging handle. At that point, you are within a couple of pounds of humping two complete carbines.

A .22LR conversion unit uses the .223/5.56 barrel for the bullet to engage the rifling. The 7.62 upper would not work for that system.

I suppose a case could be made for a .308 carbine, and a dedicated .22LR upper, but again, the upper with conversion unit and CH probably weighs a lot more than a .22LR pistol and probably almost as much as a 10/22 Ruger.

Your call, looks gimmicky to me.

TR

[Odin21]

In regards to sidearm selection-
Would any of you consider it a benefit to carry a Glock .40 with a 40-9 conversion barrel? I have no personal experience with them but I have seen them mentioned here before by QPs, so I am assuming that at least some people have had some luck with them. If they are reliable enough, I would imagine that having a pistol that could shoot .40 or 9mm and a rifle that could shoot .22LR and 5.56mm would be a pretty powerful, lightweight package. If you have the conversion barrel in your weapon and it loaded with the 9mm JHP carry ammo of your choice, for the weight of a few empty .40 mags and the original barrel you can shoot whatever .40 you pick up or have at your destination. I know that I have a wider variety of ammo at my eventual location than I could reasonably carry weapons for, so having one pistol that allows me to shoot two fairly common rounds may be a benefit.

That being said, there are people on here far more proficient and experienced than I and I would really like to hear your input. Thank you for your time.

[The_Mentalist]

Ok, getting in on this one late but...

Grab the AR in its case. I keep 12 loaded mags in the case which gives me 360 rounds. My 1911 immediately goes on the hip. Bug out bag will have another 10 loaded mags for the AR and 500 rounds for the 1911. That give me a total of 660 rounds for the AR and 529 rounds (counting the mag in, 2spares on the hip and one round in the pipe) for the 1911.

The 5.56 will take any game in North America. So, we will be fed. It is small enough to take rabbits and powerful enough for moose, elk and if you put a couple. Rounds in, even buffalo. It is really the perfect bug out weapon of our time.

However, my buyout situation in reality is much different. I drive a semi and haul food products. Most likely, I will get notification with 40K pounds of chicken in the trailer or like now, 38K of potatoes. Fuel on board will allow for 1000 miles wherever I want to go(but will go shorter distance to have the engine fuel available to put into the reefer unit). I have contacts throughout he country as well as set locations that I have planned based on where I happen to be at the time. No matter where I happen to be, 200 miles/3.5 hrs will be my max driving for safe harbor.

In the truck, I happen to have my 1911 (stays on my hip unless in Cali or OR) with 1K rounds, my primary AR with 1500 rounds (660 already loaded in mags) and my .308 Savage with 250 rounds. We carry enough food (not counting load) for 2 weeks and at least 5 gallons of water on top of whatever we have to drink otherwise. CB, satcom and internet access all available in the truck (satcom is only direct to company) along with cell phone. We have every thing in the truck you would have at home except a shower. So, we are in our bug out vehicle constantly. And yes, in a SHTF scenario I would not shy away from stealing my load to provide food or stealing any one else's load if it became necessary. Most likely, I would get in touch with some other trucker friends and we would combine resources. Build a compound out of trailers with he tractors (houses) in the center.

[The_Mentalist]

You would need another upper for 5.56, with the bolt carrier and charging handle. At that point, you are within a couple of pounds of humping two complete carbines.

A .22LR conversion unit uses the .223/5.56 barrel for the bullet to engage the rifling. The 7.62 upper would not work for that system.

I suppose a case could be made for a .308 carbine, and a dedicated .22LR upper, but again, the upper with conversion unit and CH probably weighs a lot more than a .22LR pistol and probably almost as much as a 10/22 Ruger.

Your call, looks gimmicky to me.

TR
Not to mention that if you are shooting .22 through a .223 barrel, it will be inaccurate as hell. The bullet does not properly engage the rifling and the twist rate is too slow. Just stick with the 5.56/.223 and you can do whatever you would need.

[The Reaper]

Not to mention that if you are shooting .22 through a .223 barrel, it will be inaccurate as hell. The bullet does not properly engage the rifling and the twist rate is too slow. Just stick with the 5.56/.223 and you can do whatever you would need.

Not sure how many times you have tried this, but I have four conversions and have run them on at least a dozen uppers, including my issue weapon.

It is not a BR-50 rifle, but it will do the job for putting down varmints, collecting small game at reasonable ranges, or eliminating sentry animals. You just need to practice with it and learn the capabilities and limitations of the system before using it to stay alive.

The .22LR bullets mic the same diameter and recovered bullets show full rifling engagement, by my tools.

The twist is much faster with a .223/5.56, particularly with the newer 1x7" and 1x9" rifles. The older 1x12" and 1x14" are not far off the preferred .22LR twist rate. That difference is why dedicated uppers are available with the optimal twist rifling for precision work.

As far as the Glock conversions, if they will run reliably with just a barrel change, that could have merit, especially if you wanted to collect ammo along the way, and anticipated finding lots of 9x19. I think the breech faces are slightly different between the 9x19 and .40 S&W barrels, maybe the extractor keeps it close enough to center for the firing pin to reliably ignite the primer.

As with everything else, try before you buy, if you can, and make sure you know what it will do before betting your life on it.

TR

[The_Mentalist]

Not done a 22 conversion, but from the friends that I have that have done it, they report a greatly reduced accuracy as compared to a dedicated 22. However, they say it is good enough to hit 4" circles at 50 yards. Although this could provide a great weight saving on ammo, carrying a second dedicated upper negates the benefit of the 22 ammo weight.

Ultimately, we all have to figure out what is best for each of us in our potential environment. In the desert areas, you would obviously have to pack more water and set up for longer range shooting than in a forested environment. Urban areas, fire and maneuver as well as fast movement are a priority. In some cases, even facing a vastly superior number, you may be best off just hunkering down and bunkering your residence.

[TRU]

I'm surprised people aren't grabbing for AK/AK Variants. If a bunch of hooligans are taking over, chances are that's their weapon of choice, so ammunition would be easy to come by. Personally, I'd grab my 700PSS, AK, Glock 19 (I love the 1911, but that would probably have to stay behind. Ammunition sourcing may be an issue for 45 in a SHTF situation), and my Ruger MkII, as far as specifically weapons go.

[The Reaper]

I'm surprised people aren't grabbing for AK/AK Variants. If a bunch of hooligans are taking over, chances are that's their weapon of choice, so ammunition would be easy to come by. Personally, I'd grab my 700PSS, AK, Glock 19 (I love the 1911, but that would probably have to stay behind. Ammunition sourcing may be an issue for 45 in a SHTF situation), and my Ruger MkII, as far as specifically weapons go.

TRU, what do you consider to be a reasonable amount of weight (food, water, shelter, guns, ammo, etc.) to carry in this scenario?

TR

[The_Mentalist]

If the time comes that I would have to source handgun ammo, the handgun would be available too. Until then, I trust the 1911 more than any of the wonder 9's. Also, given the probability that the BGs wil most likely be government forces (not necessarily military), AR variants or NATO rounds are those most likely to be carried by the BG. I always preach to stock up on what your potential enemy carries (in a non military situation) and I see our greatest threat coming from NATO or our own government. Civilian situations will eventually rise out of that, but the primary threat is what the founders thought of when they added the 2A to the bill of rights.

Eta: in most instances, I would consider 100 pounds of supplies plus the weight of the loaded weapons (not spare ammo) to be good enough to get you to safe harbor. I figure on 30 pounds of ammo, 10 pounds of clothing (a few changes), 20 total water, 25 food and then some accessories. Just a generalization but a decent base line.

[The Reaper]

If the time comes that I would have to source handgun ammo, the handgun would be available too. Until then, I trust the 1911 more than any of the wonder 9's. Also, given the probability that the BGs wil most likely be government forces (not necessarily military), AR variants or NATO rounds are those most likely to be carried by the BG. I always preach to stock up on what your potential enemy carries (in a non military situation) and I see our greatest threat coming from NATO or our own government. Civilian situations will eventually rise out of that, but the primary threat is what the founders thought of when they added the 2A to the bill of rights.

Eta: in most instances, I would consider 100 pounds of supplies plus the weight of the loaded weapons (not spare ammo) to be good enough to get you to safe harbor. I figure on 30 pounds of ammo, 10 pounds of clothing (a few changes), 20 total water, 25 food and then some accessories. Just a generalization but a decent base line.

Mentalist, have you humped 130 pounds of gun and supplies lately, in a tactical operation?

TR

[Peregrino]

Hmmm. Mentalist - I think you might want to reconsider your assumptions. I've jumped and then carried 130+ pound rucksacks. I was also in my 20's and in the best shape of my life. I now have a number of interesting prescriptions that I partake of when my body decides to remind me of the abuse it has been subjected to over the years. If you're forced to hoof it with 100 lbs of crap plus weapons and ammo without that semi you're used to depending on you're not going to make 100 miles without getting scarfed up by the opposition.

I've read some interesting approaches to the problem but don't consider most of them to be particularly viable. Perhaps it's time to relook the original "challenge".

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

Emphasis is to refocus the discussion. Many of the participants in this discussion appear to have overlooked/ignored the set parameters of the scenario. Interestingly, TR has given some specific and (I think) generous allowances with the already packed BOB. Many of you wanting to include the kitchen sink on your packing list would benefit from reading "The Load of a Nation". The basic premise (overburdened soldiers are not combat effective) was sharply reinforced during Operation ANACONDA.

Personally I'm concentrating on what it takes to break contact, discourage pursuit, reduce signature, and maintain my physical condition over 7-10 days of tactical movement so I can reach my destination and recover/prepare for Phase II. Food for thought - Having a prepared destination and knowing what to do when you get there is something everyone participating in this "thought experiment" should be giving due consideration. MOO, YMMV.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered...SNIP...

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

Is it dark or light outside?

In a perfect world, I'd like to take a long gun...but it may not be feasible if drawing unwanted attention and several 911 phone calls spoils my plans to blend in and move discreetly amongst the sheep...:D

If by land I'd take the AR (light weight, more ammo) if by sea, I'd prefer the HK-91 in .308/7.62.

Probably in five-minutes or less, I'd be abandoning my abode with the pistol on my hip and three mags. Work out the extras on the run and acquire weapons and ammo through recovery...

:munchin

[The_Mentalist]

No, I have not humped that "lately" and fortunately have never had to do it in a "real" combat situation. I would, most likely, given the original challenge, seriously pare down my load. A basic load out of ammo instead of the larger quantity previously mentioned, cut food in half and reduce clothing to socks and skivvies. Water would still remain a higher priority for weight allowance depending on source availability. The one issue I have that you don't is that I can not base a load out on any one location. I must remain fully capable for any environment. This is one reason I carry as much in the truck as I do. Even right now, in the middle of summer, I carry winter clothing. I also carry summer clothing in the middle of January. I have had a full 130 degree temperature swing in just 14 hours one day from 115 in Vegas to -15 that evening in park city Utah. The temps changed so fast that it cracked my windshield. I tend to be more aware of environmental considerations than some one that stays in one location.

[spherojon]

In this scenario I'm not bringing 4 extra pair of cloths with the kitchen sink and all that jazz. Why? Because I'm getting the f out of the area. TRs post, "BE PREPARED" (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10819&highlight=bug+bag) really hit home with me considering I am in Southern California and its a high % that a natural disaster will hit. SC has millions of people here, and if sh*t hit the fan, well those millions now have no food, no power, and limited resources in this desert. The quicker I get the f* out undetected, the better (roadblocks, gangs, looting, etc). With that said, I already have a stache of food, clothing, ammo, guns, and my pride and joy, an running aquaponics system in a secure location about 180 miles away (also near freshwater). I have two bug out bags, one in my car to get me home, the other, at home to get me to my secure location (at a gold mine off the beaten path in the Sierra Nevada). I also have a TW 200 and access to horses in my area. Location is mapped out that leaves me off the main roads and highways. My point with all of this is, in this scenario, there is no point to having 130 pounds of gear, 40 pounds of it being in guns and ammo. My bug out bags change with the season, but for summer, temperature doesnt go from 120 down to -15, its about 70-120 right now, but I plan on traveling at night. The only bad thing about this scenario is that its limited to 100 miles...so I have to bring a 870 Wingmaster and ammo instead of relying on my spare at my secure location.

[The Reaper]

No, I have not humped that "lately" and fortunately have never had to do it in a "real" combat situation. I would, most likely, given the original challenge, seriously pare down my load. A basic load out of ammo instead of the larger quantity previously mentioned, cut food in half and reduce clothing to socks and skivvies. Water would still remain a higher priority for weight allowance depending on source availability. The one issue I have that you don't is that I can not base a load out on any one location. I must remain fully capable for any environment. This is one reason I carry as much in the truck as I do. Even right now, in the middle of summer, I carry winter clothing. I also carry summer clothing in the middle of January. I have had a full 130 degree temperature swing in just 14 hours one day from 115 in Vegas to -15 that evening in park city Utah. The temps changed so fast that it cracked my windshield. I tend to be more aware of environmental considerations than some one that stays in one location.

I don't think that your load carrying estimate of 100 pounds of gear, plus guns is realistic for the scenario I described, particularly since I specified a 45 pound BoB as your basic load. I have carried loads in excess of 100 pounds before, and to move 100 miles in a hurry, it is just not practical, certainly not tactical.

If you can't physically carry the load, why would you post it here as what you would take? There was no truck in this scenario, it is foot movement only. When in doubt, RTFQ.

If you want to start a "what to carry in a get home vehicle bag" thread, have at it.

Barring severe altitude changes (which I would not attempt in this scenario), 100 miles distance will not normally put you in a significantly different climate, but if it did, my experience is that as long as you are reasonably dressed, you only get significantly cooler when you stop moving. The main issue (for me) would be staying reasonably warm in a cold climate and staying reasonably bug free in a warm climate.

In this scenario I'm not bringing 4 extra pair of cloths with the kitchen sink and all that jazz. Why? Because I'm getting the f out of the area. TRs post, "BE PREPARED" (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10819&highlight=bug+bag) really hit home with me considering I am in Southern California and its a high % that a natural disaster will hit. SC has millions of people here, and if sh*t hit the fan, well those millions now have no food, no power, and limited resources in this desert. The quicker I get the f* out undetected, the better (roadblocks, gangs, looting, etc). With that said, I already have a stache of food, clothing, ammo, guns, and my pride and joy, an running aquaponics system in a secure location about 180 miles away (also near freshwater). I have two bug out bags, one in my car to get me home, the other, at home to get me to my secure location (at a gold mine off the beaten path in the Sierra Nevada). I also have a TW 200 and access to horses in my area. Location is mapped out that leaves me off the main roads and highways. My point with all of this is, in this scenario, there is no point to having 130 pounds of gear, 40 pounds of it being in guns and ammo. My bug out bags change with the season, but for summer, temperature doesnt go from 120 down to -15, its about 70-120 right now, but I plan on traveling at night. The only bad thing about this scenario is that its limited to 100 miles...so I have to bring a 870 Wingmaster and ammo instead of relying on my spare at my secure location.

Good plan, I like the combo bags. I suppose you could also do seasonal, but I don't normally go out in the winter without proper clothing on anyway. I guess for winter, I would grab a goretex parka, a set of poly pro underwear, a fleece vest, a pair of insulated gloves, and a stocking cap.

Once you get out of the city, you are probably in an area where you could actually use a rifle to its max range rather than the shotgun. Not sure if there is any game to be harvested to supplement your diet, but I would size the caliber and ammo based on the max range and game size/threat.

I also agree with the traveling only at night, once you break out of the initial search area. Thermal scanning / FLIR from helicopters could make this challenging.

I am thinking one rifle/carbine and one pistol. I would allow that a second pistol would not be unreasonable, if you have the weight to spare. A couple of hundred rounds of AR/AK ammo or a hundred rounds of large rifle ammo, no more than 50 rounds or so of pistol ammo, and a couple hundred rounds of rimfire would be more than enough firepower. Depending on the environment, a hatchet, or a camp axe, or a machete, or a really big knife, and a smaller fixed blade knife and a multi-tool should do it.

TR

[doctom54]

Given the parameters. I would probably try to move at night (with my NVGs available) and keep a VERY low profile. For this I would pick my AR and 6 mags plus my suppressed Ruger Mk III. If needed you can acquire small game quietly. Plus you can always start to solve any problem you meet quietly then escalate IF required.

[TRU]

TRU, what do you consider to be a reasonable amount of weight (food, water, shelter, guns, ammo, etc.) to carry in this scenario?

TR

To still be realistic, I would say around 45-70 lbs, depending on the situation, weather, and the region I'm going to. Not trying to hump anything over 70 lbs, especially with limited food and water. I've certainly humped more, but it wasn't quick nor tactical. Humping 70lbs + of gear, ammunition, etc. for ~100 miles is going to require a decent amount of water and other sources of food/energy.

My bag certainly wouldn't have a bunch of changes of clothes, etc. in it, especially if I only had 5 min to grab my shit and un-ass the area. I'd certainly have a change of socks, gloves and knit cap (if it's winter) and bug repellant, small aid kit, and maybe a lightweight change of pants/shirt Hammock, Petzl headlamp, woobie, some field stripped MRE's, 2 nalgenes (water weight adds up quick as we all know, haha) and a couple other odd's and ends adds up quick, so I'd prefer to keep it light. This is assuming it would already be packed in my go bag.

I chose the AK due to ammunition sourcing (though, I suppose that would depend on the forces taking over and what they carried) and the fact that it requires less regular maint. than the AR platform, and would be a more feasible hunting weapon than an AR platform carbine. The Glock was chosen along the same premises. No matter what I throw at it, when I pull the trigger, it will go bang. I don't think the Ruger MkII is unreasonable; it's lightweight, extremely useful in this situation (Do you really want to shoot a squirrel or rabbit with an AK/AR/700/Shotgun? Kinda defeats the purpose of hunting for food), plus compared to the other options it's rather quiet when fired. Not to mention ammo is lightweight. I may have been a little overzealous with the 700PSS though. Give or take an 11lb rifle, plus .308 ammo isn't light, especially when I'm on the run.

[The Reaper]

Tom:

I think we are pretty much on the same page.


TRU:

I generally agree with your comments, but follow this:

Rem 700 w/optics, mount, sling - 11 lbs.
AK w/sling and empty mag - 9 lbs.
Glock 19 w/ empty mag and holster - 2 lbs.
Ruger Mk 2 w/ empty mag and holster - 2 lbs.

24 lbs., plus ammo:

7.62x51 - 19 rds./lb.
7.62x39 - 28 rds./lb. (plus .5 - 1.0 lb./mag)
9x19 - 38 rds/lb. (plus mag wt.=.5 lb./loaded 15 rd mag.)
.22LR - 133 rds./lb. (plus mag wt.)

Sample load:

100 rds. 7.62x51 - 5 lbs.
150 rds. 7.62x39 in 5 30 rd. mags - 10 lbs.
50 rds. 9x19 in 3 15 rd. mags - 2 lbs.
200 rds. .22LR and 2 spare 10 rd. mags - 2 lbs.

Total, weapon, accessories and ammo:

Rem 700 w/ 100 rounds - 15 lbs.
AK47 w/ 5 loaded 30 rd. mags - 19 lbs.
Glock 19 w/ 3 loaded 15 rd. mags - 3.5 lbs.
Ruger Mk 2. w/ 3 loaded 10 rd. mags and 170 spare rounds - 4 lbs.

Total weapons and ammo load weight: 41.5 lbs. + LCE

Either you are humping an 86.5 pound load (per the original scenario), or you are going to be dumping a lot of gear pretty quickly (and moving slowly to boot).

Not trying to bust your bubble, just trying to make everyone understand the tyranny of time, distance, and weight.

What do you (collectively) really have to have for the scenario?

Hint: I don't think two long guns, with lots of ammo, is feasible.

And I wouldn't necessarily sell the AR short for the AK, especially in the .300 Blackout.


Alternative weapons loadout:

16" lightweight, mid-length M-4 in .300 Blackout, with freefloat rail, 1.5-5x Leupold M/RT or TA-31 ACOG, Surefire M-600, BUIS, Otis pistol grip cleaning kit, sling, five GI mags, and Surefire 7.62 shorty suppressor. - 12 pounds.
Ruger .22/45 LITE in .22LR with night sights, 3x 10 rd. mags and suppressor 2 lbs.
[Optional Glock 19 w/ night sights, holster, empty mag - 2.0 lbs.]

150 rounds .300 AAC Blackout, supersonic 125 gr. Nosler BT - 6 lbs.
60 rounds .300 AAC Blackout, subsonic 220 gr. Sierra BTHP-MK - 2 lbs.
130 rounds .22LR HV HPs 1 lb.
70 rounds Lapua Match (subsonic) .5 lb.
[Optional pistol ammo 50 rds. 9x19 JHP +P in 3x 15 rd. mags - 1.5 lbs.]

Total, carbine, accessories, and ammo: 20 lbs.
Total, .22LR pistol, accessories, and ammo: 3 lbs.
[Total optional Glock pistol, accessories, and ammo: 3.5 lbs.]

Total weapons and ammo load weight (w/o Glock: 23 lbs. + LCE)

Total weapons and ammo load weight (w/ Glock: 26.5 lbs. + LCE)

Gross load, as per scenario: 68-71.5 lbs. Still heavy, but much easier than 86+ pounds, especially moving fast in bad terrain.

TR

[TRU]

I certainly agree with the weight issue. Humping weight, especially when being chased or trying to move quietly is a feat in itself, let alone 80+ lbs.

On a side note, I just built a .300 Blackout with AAC Suppressor. Seeing as how I've been down here in the course, I haven't had time to shoot it or play around with it. I think .300 platform would be a good option, but you would have to bring a lot of ammo. Sourcing it now is rough, and handloading isn't an option in this scenario.

[therunningwolf]

I'd like to add my take on this scenario. I don't have any experience in combat or really any training to brag about, I practice with my personal AR and Sidearm at least an hour a day and get out with my buddies to train as much as we can, but we are by no means experts. I ruck twice a week and run twice a week on top of lifting and a lot of calisthenics. Just to give anyone reading a little background.

Given five minutes to grab what ever I can the first minute I would spend sending a group text (if able) or a call or two to my buddies to tell them to get to a predetermined rally point. If phones are down, we all know where to meet if things get squirrelly. I honestly consider this to be the most important "weapon" I have to get, my teammates. Next I would grab my AR, it is a BCM mid length with a Aimpoint and magnifier, SureFire Fury, and soon to have a can on it, it is painted to match my AO. Setting next to it is a Molle belt and a BFG RackMinus that holds 7 rifle mags total, with three more in my pack. I also have a RMJ Shrike mounted on the belt, The Shrike would be mostly for breaking into (or out of) anything we come across along the way. I always have a Glock 19 with spare mag on me as well as a pocket knife and other goodies. After reading this thread, I believe I will also invest in a .22 conversion kit.

I plan to travel with a small group thus we all carry 5.56 and 9x19. Eleven magazines may seem like a lot, but I figure after we get to where we are going, we will be regrouping with larger groups to take back the land we lost, also we can scavenge for magazine's and ammo and other equipment along the way, but I want to make sure I have at least eleven good magazine's on me, and I figure they aren't doing me any good empty.

To compensate for this added weight I won't be carrying a dedicated shelter, one of us will be awake at all times maybe two so there is no point in all of us carrying a shelter/ sleep system, if I need it I have a poncho and woobie on me and the knowledge and skills to build a shelter.

I choose the AR for it's weight, commonality, and accuracy on top of it being the one weapon I know the best. I didn't go with a dedicated scope but instead with an Aimpoint, where I live there isn't many places where you can see 200-300 yards away so long range isn't much of a worry. I did choose to add in a magnifier though seeing as I plan to head West. As for the hawk, we each have a specific item or set of items we are responsible for carrying, I'm responsible for carrying stuff to break crap or break into things, the axe just serves double duty as a lightweight breaching tool/ weapon. Not the best, but lighter then a sledgehammer or crowbar and better then a large fixed blade in my opinion.

If we have to leave our home we plan to do it as quickly and quietly as possible so we will be avoiding civilization as much as possible and depending heavily on maps and our ability to land-nav. I have a rain cover for my ruck that makes it look fairly civilianish so I can throw everything in the empty spaces of my pack when I don't need to look like Rambo. We plan to avoid conflict as much as we can on our way out, but boy will we raise some hell on the way back.

Any advice or critique you can add would be appreciated.

[The Reaper]

TRU, you could load all of the .300 you want to right now, before the scenario starts. Great shooting round an extremely flexible, and I was not a fan of the proposed 5.56 replacements.


runningwolf, your logic appears to be generally sound.

I would probably take less ammo and am not sure I would use a $500 tomahawk as a breaching tool, but you have a plan and as a young man, you may be able to carry the load.

I like the team approach and cross-loading as well.

Good answer. I'll be watching you....

TR

[(1VB)compforce]

Grab my go-bag (lightweight frameless ruck), ~20 lbs at normal weight + 10 lbs for food (ramen noodles and foil tuna packets) and water

Panther Arms DPMS AR-10 broken into upper and lower and stuffed in the bag with one 20 round mag for any ranged hunting/defense (~11.5 lb)

Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm - I keep it velcro strapped to side of ruck for quick deployment. It's accurate out to 100M and blends with the ruck well enough to avoid casual notice (~6 lb) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cx4_Storm for those not familiar with it.

Beretta 92FS - I'd only choose this over the 1911 because the mags are interchangeable with the storm.

4 X mags - If I need more than this, I've failed miserably

Leatherman Skeletool and Benchmade fixed blade are on the pack, my 3" folder is always in my pocket so knives are covered.

Total weight - 50-55 lb

Everything is ready to go except the AR, it is easily accessible on the way to the exit so it only takes the time to punch the pins and stuff into the bag. I can leave this behind if time doesn't permit, the storm is enough for most E&E applications.

I'm on the fringes of the North Atlanta Metro so my E&E would be to the N/NE away from the city and into the wooded lake lanier area.

[The_Mentalist]

Grab my go-bag (lightweight frameless ruck), ~20 lbs at normal weight + 10 lbs for food (ramen noodles and foil tuna packets) and water

Panther Arms DPMS AR-10 broken into upper and lower and stuffed in the bag with one 20 round mag for any ranged hunting/defense (~11.5 lb)

Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm - I keep it velcro strapped to side of ruck for quick deployment. It's accurate out to 100M and blends with the ruck well enough to avoid casual notice (~6 lb) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cx4_Storm for those not familiar with it.

Beretta 92FS - I'd only choose this over the 1911 because the mags are interchangeable with the storm.

4 X mags - If I need more than this, I've failed miserably

Leatherman Skeletool and Benchmade fixed blade are on the pack, my 3" folder is always in my pocket so knives are covered.

Total weight - 50-55 lb

Everything is ready to go except the AR, it is easily accessible on the way to the exit so it only takes the time to punch the pins and stuff into the bag. I can leave this behind if time doesn't permit, the storm is enough for most E&E applications.

I'm on the fringes of the North Atlanta Metro so my E&E would be to the N/NE away from the city and into the wooded lake lanier area.
Why not go with the PX4? Much lighter and easier to handle than the 92 and the mags are still interchangeable with the CX4.

[(1VB)compforce]

Why not go with the PX4? Much lighter and easier to handle than the 92 and the mags are still interchangeable with the CX4.

Because I own a 92 right now. My assumption was that we needed to work with what we have on hand (with the possible exception of ammo).

[Old Dog New Trick]

Just an as noted:

It would be most important to have a trusty set of good comfortable broken-in boots and socks sitting by the door to change into on your way out...five minutes is not a lot of time. All the guns, ammo, and survival equipment in the bag won't help if you can't make it the first ten miles; you have 90 to go... :D

[spherojon]

Just an as noted:

It would be most important to have a trusty set of good comfortable broken-in boots and socks sitting by the door to change into on your way out...five minutes is not a lot of time. All the guns, ammo, and survival equipment in the bag won't help if you can't make it the first ten miles; you have 90 to go... :D

I have a pair next to my safe, and a pair in my vehicle. I went with Danner boots.

[Knight]

Rem. 12 gauge 870 pump with 100 rounds; 20 slugs and the rest 00 buckshot.
H&K .45 USP with 5 loaded clips=60 rounds.
Feedback is very welcome on the weapon choices. Great scenario-thanks!

[Fox583]

It depends, is this force using 5.56 or 7.62 either way, I think im going with my Chi-com Para model SKS with 5 loaded mags. The SKS will take down big game. I will also take my duty pistol S&W M&P 9mm. I also am bringing the family. My wife will be carrying the baby in that weird baby thing we bought that she has never used. She is also carrying the shotgun and pistol. We are headed approximately 1/2 miles through the woods behind us, there is an old rail road that runs north and south, we are headed North. I also have a hi-powered air rifle for small game and quite kills. I ditch the water in my pack and exchange it for a filtration system with an extra filter. Oh and I live in Southeast Texas so about a gallon of OFF haha.

[GratefulCitizen]

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

Not sure I understand the specifics of the scenario.

Is it you (and maybe a few other individuals in the community) being raided?
Or, is the entire community (Red Dawn) being raided?

[The Reaper]

Grab my go-bag (lightweight frameless ruck), ~20 lbs at normal weight + 10 lbs for food (ramen noodles and foil tuna packets) and water

Panther Arms DPMS AR-10 broken into upper and lower and stuffed in the bag with one 20 round mag for any ranged hunting/defense (~11.5 lb)

Beretta CX4 Storm 9mm - I keep it velcro strapped to side of ruck for quick deployment. It's accurate out to 100M and blends with the ruck well enough to avoid casual notice (~6 lb) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cx4_Storm for those not familiar with it.

Beretta 92FS - I'd only choose this over the 1911 because the mags are interchangeable with the storm.

4 X mags - If I need more than this, I've failed miserably

Leatherman Skeletool and Benchmade fixed blade are on the pack, my 3" folder is always in my pocket so knives are covered.

Total weight - 50-55 lb

Everything is ready to go except the AR, it is easily accessible on the way to the exit so it only takes the time to punch the pins and stuff into the bag. I can leave this behind if time doesn't permit, the storm is enough for most E&E applications.

I'm on the fringes of the North Atlanta Metro so my E&E would be to the N/NE away from the city and into the wooded lake lanier area.


AR-10 w/ 20 rounds and one mag - 11 pounds

CX4 Not a real fan of 6 pound pistols, but that is your call. w/four 15 rd. mags - 9 lbs.

Beretta M-92FS - 2 lbs.

Total weapons weight, with ammo - 22 lbs.

I would have worked a .22LR in there somewhere, but if loud is your thing, have at it.

I doubt that you will have the opportunity to take advantage of the range of the 7.62x51, but the penetration might work well for you.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to hump a 10 pound rifle, you might as well have enough ammo to make things interesting, but that is your call. I don't think the CX4 will do much that the M-92 will not, but it might work for you. Eliminating the CX4 and adding several mags for the rifle and a .22LR would be my suggestion. The Beretta is also bulkier and heavier than it needs to be.

Good idea hiding the guns as much as possible.


ODNT, concur wholeheartedly with the good serviceable boots, socks, and plenty of powder and maybe some moleskin.


Rem. 12 gauge 870 pump with 100 rounds; 20 slugs and the rest 00 buckshot.
H&K .45 USP with 5 loaded clips=60 rounds.
Feedback is very welcome on the weapon choices. Great scenario-thanks!


Knight, not sure of your location, but your weapons selection will likely limit you to 50 meters effective fire or less.

870 w/ 100 rounds - 18 pounds.

HK USP and 60 rounds - 5 pounds.

Total, 23 pounds, very deadly up close, but primarily an urban or thick woods loadout.

.45 ACP is heavy, and both of your selections are fairly loud, so expect attention.


It depends, is this force using 5.56 or 7.62 either way, I think im going with my Chi-com Para model SKS with 5 loaded mags. The SKS will take down big game. I will also take my duty pistol S&W M&P 9mm. I also am bringing the family. My wife will be carrying the baby in that weird baby thing we bought that she has never used. She is also carrying the shotgun and pistol. We are headed approximately 1/2 miles through the woods behind us, there is an old rail road that runs north and south, we are headed North. I also have a hi-powered air rifle for small game and quite kills. I ditch the water in my pack and exchange it for a filtration system with an extra filter. Oh and I live in Southeast Texas so about a gallon of OFF haha.


If you are going with 7.62x39, why does the pursuers' ammo choice of 5.56 or 7.62 matter? No recovery there.

Is this an SKS with a 30 round mag, or ten rounders? I wouldn't expect the 7.62x39 to take real big game, but it would be okay up through deer, if you had the right ammo.

The air rifle will weigh as much as a regular rifle, but the ammo is light, and quiet.

Good choice using a duty handgun.

I am not sure I would want to load up the wife with the baby, a shotgun, and a pistol, but you know her capabilties and limitations.

Railroad tracks can allow for some long engagement ranges. I would prefer to add an optic to the rifle.

SKS w/ 5 mags and 150 rds. - 18 pounds

M&P w/3 mags - 4 pounds

Air rifle w/ pellets - 8 pounds

Unknown shotgun w/ 25 rounds - 11 pounds

Unknown pistol (assumed to be same as your duty weapon for ammo interchangeability) - 4 pounds

Unknown baby weight, 15 lbs.

Your load of weapons and ammo - 30 lbs.

Wife's load of weapons and ammo - 15 lbs., plus baby, plus food, baby food, diapers, water, shelter, etc.

I think you are gun and ammo heavy, especially with the baby.

You can pack the 45 pound ruck and 30 pounds of guns, but I do not think she is going to be able to take the guns, ammo, baby, baby needs, and a 45 pound ruck for a total of 75+ pounds.

Best of luck!


Not sure I understand the specifics of the scenario.

Is it you (and maybe a few other individuals in the community) being raided?
Or, is the entire community (Red Dawn) being raided?


GC:

Don't read too much into the scenario.

You are on the run in five minutes with what you can carry, the authorities have blocked the area roads, and will be searching for you very soon. Your goal is to evade or defeat your pursuers for 100 miles to a safe area of your choosing.

What do you grab for weapons to go with your BoB as you jock up and move out?

TR

[(1VB)compforce]

AR-10 w/ 20 rounds and one mag - 11 pounds

CX4 Not a real fan of 6 pound pistols, but that is your call. w/four 15 rd. mags - 9 lbs.

Beretta M-92FS - 2 lbs.

Total weapons weight, with ammo - 22 lbs.

I would have worked a .22LR in there somewhere, but if loud is your thing, have at it.

I doubt that you will have the opportunity to take advantage of the range of the 7.62x51, but the penetration might work well for you.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to hump a 10 pound rifle, you might as well have enough ammo to make things interesting, but that is your call. I don't think the CX4 will do much that the M-92 will not, but it might work for you. Eliminating the CX4 and adding several mags for the rifle and a .22LR would be my suggestion. The Beretta is also bulkier and heavier than it needs to be.

Good idea hiding the guns as much as possible.



TR,
Your input received and being given a great deal of consideration. I was approaching this from the standpoint of "you are required to E&E within 5 minutes of reading this post". I don't own a .22LR so that wasn't in the mix. Not really much that I'm allowed to shoot here in ATL so everything I own is for personal defense or range.

My thought process is to be prepared at any range with access times driven by the range. Knife for CQC, Pistol for short with immediate access, storm for medium range with 10 second access, rifle for longer ranges with 1 minute access. The Storm is a tack driver at 100M where I would be lucky to hit a man sized target with a pistol. That's the reason I like it for an engagement beyond normal pistol range. Reviews peg the group at 2"@100Y from a cradle. I've snapshot 4" over-the-shoulder hostage targets consistently at 25M with it. At 25M, I'm lucky to be on black paper with any of my handguns (I have a bad case of dupetryn's syndrome in one of my hands so no proper grip). If I drop the Storm, I'd take one of my Kimbers rather than the 92, probably the 4" Pro Carry II in .45 ACP

As far as the E&E itself, my mindset is the gray man. I'm in an urban setting in a major metro for the first 15 miles so I want to make myself blend in as much as possible and walk out. No camoflage, just a regular guy out for a walk if possible.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way? If I have to fight my way out, I'd think I was pretty much screwed in this area, better to get in my big weapon (the car) and try to haul ass through the coverage before they could react, ditch the car down the road, switch back to gray man before they knew who I was/what I look like and try to make the woodline before they got a fix on me.

Your thoughts for those of us that need to E&E out of a major urban area?

Not arguing, I'm interested in your take based on the situation.

[GratefulCitizen]

GC:

Don't read too much into the scenario.

You are on the run in five minutes with what you can carry, the authorities have blocked the area roads, and will be searching for you very soon. Your goal is to evade or defeat your pursuers for 100 miles to a safe area of your choosing.

What do you grab for weapons to go with your BoB as you jock up and move out?

TR

Given those specifics, assuming I'm moving alone, and assuming a time of year which allows for surviving a dip in the lake...
(short distance across the channel)

Biggest enemy around here is the terrain and environment.
Also an asset due to the difficulty of pursuit.

-North American 22 magnum mini-revolver w/50 rounds (45 left in box, 5 in cylinder)
-Colt Delta 10mm w/3 mags (25 rounds - preferably 230 grain hard cast)
-ar15 (16 inch barrel, collapsible stock, sling) with 2 mags, 30 rounds each
-12 gauge Mossberg 500, 18.5 inch barrel, 8 rounds 00 buck (all loaded in gun)
-bug out bag
-4 waterski vests

Reasoning/planning:
-Ski vests are for flotation, two for me, one for bag, one more just in case (they're pretty light), throw 3 of them once I'm confident no more time in the lake is likely (remaining one has other potential uses).
-12 gauge is for all the reasons I can't think of, gets thrown once I hit water (~2.5 miles).
-ar15 gets slung, should make water crossing with extra vests, primary purpose is to discourage/delay pursuit, extra mag is mainly for reliability/redundancy, it (weapon & ammo) will get thrown if it becomes a liability (probably thrown within 25 miles).
-10mm packs a punch, doesn't way too much.
-22 mag is trivial in weight, pretty accurate to 50 ft, can take small game (and still have a spare gun for all the reasons I can't think of).

Not much "fighting" ammo or weapons for over the long haul.
Would prefer to avoid fights if at all possible.
"Fighting" weapons are primarily for discouraging/delaying pursuit.

Would be outnumbered, outgunned, and I am not a gunfighter.
Better to take my chances with quicker egress into forbidding terrain.

Would want to keep load as light as is feasible.
Once clear of the lake, the big enemy is dehydration.

Sweat must be budgeted.

[The Reaper]

TR,
Your input received and being given a great deal of consideration. I was approaching this from the standpoint of "you are required to E&E within 5 minutes of reading this post". I don't own a .22LR so that wasn't in the mix. Not really much that I'm allowed to shoot here in ATL so everything I own is for personal defense or range.

My thought process is to be prepared at any range with access times driven by the range. Knife for CQC, Pistol for short with immediate access, storm for medium range with 10 second access, rifle for longer ranges with 1 minute access. The Storm is a tack driver at 100M where I would be lucky to hit a man sized target with a pistol. That's the reason I like it for an engagement beyond normal pistol range. Reviews peg the group at 2"@100Y from a cradle. I've snapshot 4" over-the-shoulder hostage targets consistently at 25M with it. At 25M, I'm lucky to be on black paper with any of my handguns (I have a bad case of dupetryn's syndrome in one of my hands so no proper grip). If I drop the Storm, I'd take one of my Kimbers rather than the 92, probably the 4" Pro Carry II in .45 ACP

As far as the E&E itself, my mindset is the gray man. I'm in an urban setting in a major metro for the first 15 miles so I want to make myself blend in as much as possible and walk out. No camoflage, just a regular guy out for a walk if possible.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way? If I have to fight my way out, I'd think I was pretty much screwed in this area, better to get in my big weapon (the car) and try to haul ass through the coverage before they could react, ditch the car down the road, switch back to gray man before they knew who I was/what I look like and try to make the woodline before they got a fix on me.

Your thoughts for those of us that need to E&E out of a major urban area?

Not arguing, I'm interested in your take based on the situation.

Consider this.

It isn't just the ability to hit the target at 100 yards, but what happens to the target, if it is hit.

9x19mm loads are optimized for a pistol barrel of 5" or less, and I doubt if the last six to eight inches of a 16" carbine is giving you much more burn. Anything over 10" - 12" is probably a waste, and is just there for BATF legal reasons.

Performance bullets are made to function for maximum terminal effect between a certain velocity range. Normally, that would be from muzzle to 50 meters or so from the pistol, possibly as little as 25 for slower rounds like the .45ACP.

Launching a JHP bullet at 1400 fps, rather than 1100 means that the bullet will tend to overexpand and underpenetrate. You will get typical handgun performance somewhere around the 950-1150 fps range, and as it slows below that, you will get more penetration and less expansion. If you chrony'ed the MV of the carbine with your carry ammo, I am sure that you could extrapolate the range of desired performance. May not even be a concern, as long as you are aware of it.

The CX4 is a nice little plinker. I would not mistake it for an assault rifle or carbine though. For me, I would prefer the M-4 or more ammo for the AR-10.

Not to spend your money, but you might want to consider a pellet pistol for backyard practice and saving up for a carbine in 5.56 or 7.62x39. You used to be able

I am sure that you can get by with your weapons loadout, but I would not hump a ten pound semi-auto rifle with just 20 rounds unless that was all of the ammo I had.

You might also want to look at alternative sighting options that would give you a CQB capability for your AR-10, like an offset Doctor Optic or a similar red dot sight.

If you are in an urban area, you need to consider how to get out in advance of when the SHTF. I would look to establish some criteria that would cause me to initiate my plan fairly early on the timeline.

Fifteen miles through some of the Atlanta neighborhoods I have seen could be rough. Outside of the scenario, you need to drive, get a motorcycle, or a bike.

Gray man is the way to be, in your situation. Invisible man would be better yet. Hide the guns unless you decide that the situation is better packing openly and appearing to be a harder target than going concealed.

I do not want to get too deeply into over analyzing the scenario. I wanted to see what the bugout weapons might realistically look like without opening the thread to people who would say they were going to carry everything including the kitchen sink.

If you need to use your car, you might want to have a PACE plan picked out where P might be your car, A could be a motorcycle, C would be your bicycle and trailer, and E is your feet.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to live within 50 miles of a major metro area or a natural line of drift for a plethora of reasons. Honestly, my solution would be to start working on a plan to get out. Otherwise, you need a very solid plan, with lots of contingencies for the most likely and most dangerous courses of action.


Given those specifics, assuming I'm moving alone, and assuming a time of year which allows for surviving a dip in the lake...
(short distance across the channel)

Biggest enemy around here is the terrain and environment.
Also an asset due to the difficulty of pursuit.

-North American 22 magnum mini-revolver w/50 rounds (45 left in box, 5 in cylinder)
-Colt Delta 10mm w/3 mags (25 rounds - preferably 230 grain hard cast)
-ar15 (16 inch barrel, collapsible stock, sling) with 2 mags, 30 rounds each
-12 gauge Mossberg 500, 18.5 inch barrel, 8 rounds 00 buck (all loaded in gun)
-bug out bag
-4 waterski vests

Reasoning/planning:
-Ski vests are for flotation, two for me, one for bag, one more just in case (they're pretty light), throw 3 of them once I'm confident no more time in the lake is likely (remaining one has other potential uses).
-12 gauge is for all the reasons I can't think of, gets thrown once I hit water (~2.5 miles).
-ar15 gets slung, should make water crossing with extra vests, primary purpose is to discourage/delay pursuit, extra mag is mainly for reliability/redundancy, it (weapon & ammo) will get thrown if it becomes a liability (probably thrown within 25 miles).
-10mm packs a punch, doesn't way too much.
-22 mag is trivial in weight, pretty accurate to 50 ft, can take small game (and still have a spare gun for all the reasons I can't think of).

Not much "fighting" ammo or weapons for over the long haul.
Would prefer to avoid fights if at all possible.
"Fighting" weapons are primarily for discouraging/delaying pursuit.

Would be outnumbered, outgunned, and I am not a gunfighter.
Better to take my chances with quicker egress into forbidding terrain.

Would want to keep load as light as is feasible.
Once clear of the lake, the big enemy is dehydration.

Sweat must be budgeted.


Crossing water is a decent plan, especially given the arid climate you live near. You would likely haver to plot your route from water source to water source. In fact, it would not be a terrible idea to cache some water at regular intervals along your route or near your destination. If the situation appeared to be going bad, you could dig in some five gallon buckets of water and recover them or not, as needed without any big investment other than a little sweat.

I think one of your biggest assets is your detailed knowledge of the area and especially the neighborhoods. If anyone has a good route out that they know like the back of their hand, it should be you.

Your best course of action would be almost certainly be to move at night, and lay up in the shade and rest during the day.

I must admit that after seeing a couple of people mentioning taking weapons with very little ammo, I am very pessimistic about the logic. Why carry a carbine, shotgun, and two pistols with only a few rounds each. I think I would rather have the M-4, five 30 rd. mags, and another five pounds of food or gear than a shotgun and eight rounds to go with it.

If you don't need it, break it down and keep it in your ruck for potential future use. If you really can't carry it, I would put it in a good hiding place where I could come back later and recover it.

I also have a NAA .22 mini-revolver, and I would not count on harvesting game with it, unless the game was a domesticated animal that you could call over to stand while you put it down. Have you tried hitting small targets with it already? Mine works best in a contact kill employment. No precision fire with that.

I think you have the basis for a good plan. You just have to think it through.

TR

[GratefulCitizen]

Crossing water is a decent plan, especially given the arid climate you live near. You would likely haver to plot your route from water source to water source. In fact, it would not be a terrible idea to cache some water at regular intervals along your route or near your destination. If the situation appeared to be going bad, you could dig in some five gallon buckets of water and recover them or not, as needed without any big investment other than a little sweat.

I think one of your biggest assets is your detailed knowledge of the area and especially the neighborhoods. If anyone has a good route out that they know like the back of their hand, it should be you.

Your best course of action would be almost certainly be to move at night, and lay up in the shade and rest during the day.

I must admit that after seeing a couple of people mentioning taking weapons with very little ammo, I am very pessimistic about the logic. Why carry a carbine, shotgun, and two pistols with only a few rounds each. I think I would rather have the M-4, five 30 rd. mags, and another five pounds of food or gear than a shotgun and eight rounds to go with it.

If you don't need it, break it down and keep it in your ruck for potential future use. If you really can't carry it, I would put it in a good hiding place where I could come back later and recover it.

I also have a NAA .22 mini-revolver, and I would not count on harvesting game with it, unless the game was a domesticated animal that you could call over to stand while you put it down. Have you tried hitting small targets with it already? Mine works best in a contact kill employment. No precision fire with that.

I think you have the basis for a good plan. You just have to think it through.

TR

Just went with what's currently on the shelf.
If I were to go with what's on the shopping list it might be a bit different.

If items on the shopping list were included there would be a 22lr conversion for the Colt, 22lr conversion for the ar15, lose the shotgun, lose spare 22 mag ammo (keeping 22 mag in cylinder and also bringing 22lr cylinder), add 500 round 22lr.

Would still only take 25 rds 10mm and 60 rds 5.56.
Would be unlikely to throw ar15 in this circumstance.

Have shot small targets w/22 mag.
Not a preferred choice, just going with what was on the shelf.

Egressing the town would be helped some by area knowledge, but it's not really a very big town.
The bigger help in this scenario is the accumulated knowledge of the remote areas.

******************
******************

I know it's a mental exercise, but it's hard to envision a scenario where egress would be favorable.
A large, young family; difficult, remote terrain; and the best place to go is here.

Page, Arizona:
Reliable, redundant power.
Relative to the population size, the most reliable water supply on earth.
A lake full of fish.
Very remote.
Not along any natural (or easy) lines of drift.
Absolute barriers to entry from three directions (cliffs), difficult approach from the other direction, and most of the town is on a mesa with huge fields of fire.
Well-armed, conservative, religious population.
Very conservative local, state, tribal, and federal LEOs (and plenty of them).
Large LDS population (preppers).
Children are a large part of the population (fosters peaceful solutions among adults).
Few single men age 18-25 (trouble makers).
Basically, low initial zombie ratio and low zombie growth rate.
Incoming hostile/tyrannical forces would also be in for one heck of a problem.

Given most zombie scenarios, the big advantage of the UPS drivers is becoming the new phone book when comm systems break down.
We know where to find everyone.
Best chance would be to try to help keep order and build for the future.

[The Reaper]

Nothing wrong with staying in place at home, I lean in that direction as well, just doing a little rock drill here. Sounds like you have a great place to be. I don't want to bug out and leave my stuff behind either. But we might have to eventually, for some reason.

And I agree, your knowledge is a resource that could be used to good effect.

As an alternate, think about how you would get by if we lost electric power, or water, or gasoline, or the ability to transport food, or any number of fragile systems, and you were on your own. Would you stay or would you leave where you are now? Different people will have different answers. Some will be right. Some will not. The best time to plan is before an emergency hits. If you live near the East or Gulf coast, you might want a hurricane plan. Midwest, tornados, or flooding. Kali, earthquakes or wildfires. Up north, winter storms. Or we could all lose the electric grid. Think about it now and decide what you need to do to take care of yourselves and your families. Any plan that you are prepared to execute is better than no plan.


Final point for tonight, not directed ay anyone in particular. You can decide if it is you or not.

This ain't the movies, and you are not Jason Bourne.

You can plan to haul all that and the kitchen sink, but if you have never walked long distances with a heavy load, you have no idea what it is like.

To say that a wife can hump half her body weight cross-country for twelve hours at the time is to be ignorant of that activity. To plan to take 50 pounds of weapons and 45 pounds of food, water, and supplies is unrealistic, unless you are a pack mule for a living.

I would dare say that most of the males on here who think themselves fit (but who have never rucked before) would in fact, be lucky to carry fifty pounds (or one third of your body weight) twelve miles in three hours. That is less than the load of an average infantryman. It will kick your ass, blister your feet, find your weaknesses, and leave you laid up for a day or two.

Test yourself, know what your realistic limits are, come up with a good, solid plan with contingencies (like PACE), and acquire skills. Buying the latest toy and locking it away without having thought of whether you are going to go or stay, acquiring sufficient water, food, shelter (to include warmth and dryness, free of insects), communications, hygiene, etc. is a false security.

Useful skills and the ability to use them are far better than accumulated goods, unless you have a warehouse (and security for it).

Far better to leave a few supplies with a friend at his house, or cached in a remote location than to try and haul 150 pounds of gear on a 100 mile tactical movement. It ain't happening, folks.

If you have more resources to move than you can carry the distance, consider quickly cacheing them (starting early) along the way at relatively secure or remote locations that you hope to return to some day and recover them.

There is a lot to be said for either keeping a low profile, or a very high one. Be the gray man. Hide your weapons, but have at least some of them accessible in short order. If you leave home wearing cammies, or a ghillie suit, or for that matter, an Armani suit, in most neighborhoods, you are going to attract some serious attention. Dress like and as poorly as the locals, at least till you get out of town. Or if you are truly in a lawless situation, get together with some of your pipe hitting brothers you can count on, jocked up and armed to the teeth, and move with a purpose.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Ape Man]

I would dare say that most of the males on here who think themselves fit (but who have never rucked before) would in fact, be lucky to carry fifty pounds (or one third of your body weight) twelve miles in three hours. That is less than the load of an average infantryman. It will kick your ass, blister your feet, find your weaknesses, and leave you laid up for a day or two.

TR

As I am sure The Reaper knows, rucking along a trail and rucking through brush and trees with no trail are two different things. This might be different out west were everything is relativity flat, but out here it can make a big difference. One is brutal, the other seems impossible when you try it for long (and a good way to get hurt if you do it with any kind of weight). But if you really are trying to stay of of sight, I don't think you will be using trails for the first part of the trip.

My rough guess (and I have never tried to do this for a full day) is that I would be lucky to make 12 to 15 miles in a very full day staying off the trails.

[Paslode]

If I had to E&E the area asap

I would take my AR 15 with ACOG, 5-6 mags and a suppressor and my Glock 27 along with a few mags. I could probably pack 100 rounds of spare ammo on stripper clips for the AR in my bag or pockets.

Since my kids would be on this trip as well, I could put another pistol with a couple mags each in each of their small packs. One pistol would be a .22 with suppressor and I could go with another .22 or a 9mm in the other pack.

Ideally, they could also take turns carrying the AR22 (it can use the suppressor) or one could carry a 10/22.

[cat in the hat]

lots of guys humping lots of extra weapons.
i would go with my M4 and 4-5 mags of standard ammo (extra on stripper clips in the ruck) and 40 or so rounds of 40 grain .223 for small animals. it does not completely mangle a prairie dog at 50-75 yards so should work well for rabbits or other small game. load up one mag of light ammo in a 20 rounder so as not to mistake it if you have a target of opportunity.

[The_Mentalist]

Because I own a 92 right now. My assumption was that we needed to work with what we have on hand (with the possible exception of ammo).

I was considering planning for the future considering the proposed scenario.

[Knight]

TR,
Thanks for the input. I did take the effective range and volume into consideration, and that's what I toyed with for a couple of days. The choice was made due to the great majority of my travel will be in woodlands, but with farmland in between, maybe a rifle would make more sense. Thanks again.

[steel_eel]

-I would take my AR plus 30rd magazine and conceal it in my bag for quick access and wear my LCE w/6-30rd magazines under an inconspicuous jacket in case things got ugly during the egress.
-A loaded 9mm pistol is at center mass inside one of the LCE open-top pouches, secured by bungee pull tab. Two extra magazines on the LCE just in case.
-1:25,000 MGRS/satellite photo map of immediate area along with compass/protractor, supplemented by a Garmin wrist GPS. I know my immediate area very well, but this is neccessary if one needs to find an alternate route on a whim.
-Extra Ammo and food is cached at safe place one and safe place two. Safe place two also has hunting rifles and ammunition. Safe place one is only a rest stop, due to it's close proximity to my home.

My two main concerns are people and water obstacles.
I live in a pretty densly populated area with 3 out of 4 directions surrounded by bodies of water. If this is a situation where the raids are compartmentalized and not part of a grand marshall-law environment, I would probably fair well. If all hell were to break loose then the situation would become more complicated (see:F****d)

[FlagDayNCO]

TR has a point: get together with some of your pipe hitting brothers you can count on, jocked up and armed to the teeth, and move with a purpose.

Know your neighbors, their capabilities, their ability to participate. Also know who may not particiapte or may become a risk.

Having aged and sprouted a family, our Local Pipe Hitters Union has grown. Whether it is tyranny or the loss of Rule of Law, we have strength in numbers. In addition to riflemen, we know who the nurses, doctors, welders, plumbers and (you name it) are.

Community and Fire Base can be married.

[fng13]

Attached is what I'd grab.
Civilian pack loaded with enough food and supplies for a few days. I will have to steal more water along the way but the pack has purification tabs in them and a small whisperlite stove and the fuel bottle goes in the right pocket though it isn't shown. 3 liter camelback will be full. Water isn't difficult to source around here.

Also in the bag is 1st aid, survival supplies, small fishing line and lures, long underware, backpack tent (poles attach under the pack), woobie, cliff bars, 4 - 2 person add water and warm food packs from gander mountain, compass, map in lightweight map case, 3 spare loaded ar-15 mags, 2 spare m&p mags loaded, pocket mesh hammock, few spare batteries, poncho, mess kit, leatherman mut.

Don't have the exact weight on it roughly 25-30 lbs dry.

Nice thing about that pack is i can throw a shirt or or poncho around that AR and it straps to the front of the pack making it semi concealed.

On my hip would be the m&p 9mm in a comp-tac Minotaur, and not shown is two modified safariland kydex ar pouches that go on my belt. all of that is totally concealed.

I'd also grab eiether my bellville waterproof boots or my merrel low hikers. either of which have plenty of time on them.

If people are chasing me I want to be relatively light so I'd probably dump the tent depending on what the weather was like that day and just keep the rain fly.

Rifle has 3000+ rounds down it, has been maintained and i'd trust my life on it. I've hit man size targets with it at 300. Not for groups but I'd feel pretty confident of at least scoring some hits. That's probably the max range i'd want to try and use it for, with that optic anyway.

What I perceive as an advantage with this setup is depending on whether I'm being pursued alone or if it's SHTF I don't stand out too much. I can have the rifle covered and walk right into a town if need be.

I know the weakness here is food and water, but small game and streams are plentiful in my AO so carrying a lot of food is not necessary. The small creature comforts I am packing like the tent are more morale boosters then really necessities.

If I have to cross country 100 miles carrying a rifle with people after me I need to keep my spirits up some, and small things like being a little extra warm or dry at night go a long way. However, they'd be the first things I'd dump if I was over burdened.

Also in my pocket is my PS.com knife, love that thing.

ETA excuse that snap light it's been there since last camp.

[Surf n Turf]

Far better to leave a few supplies with a friend at his house, or cached in a remote location than to try and haul 150 pounds of gear on a 100 mile tactical movement. It ain't happening, folks.
If you have more resources to move than you can carry the distance, consider quickly cacheing them (starting early) along the way at relatively secure or remote locations that you hope to return to some day and recover them.
There is a lot to be said for either keeping a low profile, or a very high one. Be the gray man. Hide your weapons, but have at least some of them accessible in short order. Dress like and as poorly as the locals, at least till you get out of town.

TR,
I have given your scenerio serious thought, and as a certified FOG, there was no way I could hump any weight in 20 mile increments to reach 100 miles. My only answer was to pre-position my bug out required accoutrements in more gradual steps (I'll use 8-10 miles here). Step 1 -- 5 miles from home, very,very (that's 2 verys) secure redoubt, Step 2 thru XX -- 8-10 miles apart, Secure cache / layoff locations -- leading to either final destination (or transportation elsewhere).

Cache sites contain food, water, additional weapons, ammo, clothing, sleeping gear, medications, inert Coms, radio, flashlights, etc., with focus on evading / avoiding others, and what is required to reach next subsequent site. Initial site and final site required the most concentration. What did we need to begin the "bug-out", and what would we need at the end to the journey.

Another scenario to play with.
You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.
The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.
You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.
You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.
Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.
What do you take and why?
TR

TR,
I will have my BHP with 2 mags, M4 (quiet version, in 5.56), with 5 mags in bandolier. Wife has Browning .22 target, with 2 mags. We grab two bags from safe -- 1 bag$ - 1 bag Au - Step off the property, and we are in the woods enroute to site#1, where we RON (or longer).
That's my plan (1/2 completed to date)
SnT

[PSM]

TR,
I have given your scenerio serious thought, and as a certified FOG, there was no way I could hump any weight in 20 mile increments to reach 100 miles. My only answer was to pre-position my bug out required accoutrements in more gradual steps (I'll use 8-10 miles here). Step 1 -- 5 miles from home, very,very (that's 2 verys) secure redoubt, Step 2 thru XX -- 8-10 miles apart, Secure cache / layoff locations -- leading to either final destination (or transportation elsewhere).

Cache sites contain food, water, additional weapons, ammo, clothing, sleeping gear, medications, inert Coms, radio, flashlights, etc., with focus on evading / avoiding others, and what is required to reach next subsequent site. Initial site and final site required the most concentration. What did we need to begin the "bug-out", and what would we need at the end to the journey.

SnT

This assumes that you would have previous knowledge as to which direction the threat will be coming from. You have recognized your limitations in load carrying and distance covering. I believe that that is exactly the challenge TR is asking us to consider. ;)

BTW, I would stay where I am. One hundred miles in any direction would put me in a worse place. Well, unless I go North along the San Pedro River and meet up with TS heading East along the Gila. I reckon he could probably use someone for KP. :D

Pat

[The Reaper]

Wow, lots of questions/comments.

Yes, ten to twelve miles per day tactically, in open woods and under loads would probably be difficult enough for most people. Again, I would suggest moving at night without lights and holing up during the day to rest. Moving 1-2 miles per hour quietly would be decent. After the initial burst, five to ten days to move the distance, unless the pursuers were close or I were flushed. Plan water, food, resupply, and RON sites accordingly. I highly recommend a good high-res topo map like a USGS 1:24,000 for short or detailed movements, a 1:50,000 for general navigation, and at least a 1:100,000 or better for general planning.

Paslode, you have the idea, but I would not have young kids openly packing long guns, in case they were spotted.

BO, I agree with your rate of movement, unless you are a young, strong bull traveling fast.

Not sure I would want to interact with the populace, that would depend on who was chasing me, and why, which we did not delve into here. If you did, finding an illegal or migrant farm family, or someone else who avoided the authorities would probably be the best way to go purchase supplies.

cat, I agree completely about the arsenals being taken.

TM, I would say that you can plan on what you have, or on what you think you need and plan to acquire.

No problem, Knight. This should be helpful to anyone planning for contingencies.

s_e, good with the hardware. Don't forget to bring a way to get clean water to drink and some emergency food. Even water that looks clean can put you on your ass for a while.

As Flag noted, unless you are a Superman who can run silently, quickly like the wind, with a ton of gear on your back constantly, for days at the time, buddies are the way to go. Since the environment may not be permissive, you have to have someone alert and ready for trouble all of the time. Having a buddy, or two to move with you makes you much more likely to stay alive. Just remember to always bring one who is slower than you are.:D

If you are staying home, you need to have the entire neighborhood networked. Or bring in buds to stay with you and help.

fng, you have a good plan and seem to be taking what you need. I probably wouldn't pitch a tent, especially if I were holing up in daylight, maybe a bivvy bag or even a jungle hammock if it was warm. Plentiful water is usually okay, if you treat it, but I would not count on collecting a lot of food. Fishing and trapping require staying in an area a little while. Hanging around water sources is a good way to get spotted, I would stake them out if I were looking for someone evading. Unless you are heavy to start with, I would want 2,500 calories per day or more. Dehydrated or freeze dried is good. A bag of dehydrated rice might be nice with whatever you catch, and if you don't catch anything, throw in a bouillon cube for some flavor.

Hey, SnT, I can relate to getting old and slowing down. It is sound planning to break any long movement into several shorter legs. On trhe other hand, you should be able to move at whatever pace you can for 8-10 hours (with breaks) without breaking down. If that is 20 pounds of water and food with a knife and a pistol in a vest under an old overcoat, so be it. Stashing gear, especially food or ammo is a good idea. Not sure I would leave guns unless it was secured at a buddy's place. Good guns, and I can see taking some cash and metal, just not much, and with a whole lot more food, water, shelter, first aid, etc.

If things went to hell and I had to go 180 from my planned route without my caches, could I do it (even barely, worn out and ragged) with what I was carrying? Remember, pilots shot down in SE Asia were able to survive and in some cases, move long distances and evade with what they had in their vest and pockets. Not too many 100 pound rucks on that ejection seat. Maybe that is a model worth looking at, but I sure would feel nekkid without a long gun.

Pat, I am of the same mindset, I would prefer to stay at home, but unless your plan is to do the "die in place" routine, it never hurts to have a contingency to hit the trail. You get my point. You can't take it all, or even most of it very far. I know where I would go if flushed, and I hope you do too. Never hurts to check out some maps and maybe visit a few points that you found of interest. No matter what direction the threat arrived from, and what direction you departed, you can almost always circle around back onto your preferred route.

My brother told me that an older man said to him one time, "Son, you will never have to run from a fight if you start walking soon enough." There is more than a grain of truth in those words.

Good thoughts guys, and I hope that you are still learning as much from this as I am.

“Omnia mea mecum porto”

TR

[Paslode]

Paslode, you have the idea, but I would not have young kids openly packing long guns, in case they were spotted.



That crossed my mind today as well during my drive. Spotting is one issue, the other issue is we have to trek through 5 miles suburbs playing bound and over watch through culverts, backyards, fences, etc. to reach the point where we can begin avoiding streets and hide if need be. And during that time we all need our hands free. It also crossed my mind that a small ax, small bolt cutters and fence pliers might be useful during this segment.

All in all we would have approximately 15 miles to trek before the subdivisions get spotty and we would have a decent track of heavy woods and brush. After that we have lots of options, the entire trek from the 5 mile point has water and food sources.

My hunch has always been that if something bad were to happen chaos would ensue, people would flood the streets with vehicles trying to get somewhere, the PoPo or whomever would be busy with them, and that would offer a diversion of sorts and an opportunity to move pretty freely.

If it an event where to happen, I hope it is around dusk and in the spring for fall.

[steel_eel]

s_e, good with the hardware. Don't forget to bring a way to get clean water to drink and some emergency food. Even water that looks clean can put you on your ass for a while.

Thank you, sir.
I was under the assumption that there was food and water in the B/O bag.
I do have a butt pack that has E-rations and a katadyn water purification kit, but chose not to include them in my OP.

I love this thread and I love rock drills. It really opens the mind up if you are daring enough to let someone constructively criticize you.

[Old Dog New Trick]

I got this through a friend and thought it to be somewhat important to this thread. For those of you like myself that have to E&E from urban areas.

All:

Very interesting technology.

Exercise one: If you look at the picture and figure that you are part of a survey team, you will look up high on the balcony. Amongst those watching the crowd, find the two Sikh gentlemen. One with a purple turban and the other with a black turban. They are not doing anything wrong, just enjoying the view along with some of their co workers.

Now click View All so that it takes you back out again.

Exercise two: Look down at the lower right corner and find the male bike rider wearing a bright red jersey. Look at all of the shenanigans around him. Torsos without heads. Jeans with nothing above them.

Exercise three: Look in the windows in the nearest building to the right. Find the "Solidarity" poster. OpSec. Remember your computer screen angles and window angles onto your desk top computer, etc...

This picture was taken with a 70,000 x 30,000 pixel camera (2100 Mega Pixels.) These cameras are not sold to the public and are being installed in strategic locations. The camera can identify a face among a multitude of people. Place your computer's cursor in the mass of people and double-click a couple times (or 'finger-spread' on a device.) Scary sharp!!


http://www.gigapixel.com/mobile/?id=79995

Once you get to the link above you can move around and zoom (super zoom) or zoom out. In one spot down low to the left of the bicycle rider you can also find a guy holding a smartphone. I'd say if you are watching realtime you could see him dial a number just using thumb movements on a known device.

Have fun! Orwell would not approve.

[Paslode]

I got this through a friend and thought it to be somewhat important to this thread. For those of you like myself that have to E&E from urban areas.

All:

Very interesting technology.

Exercise one: If you look at the picture and figure that you are part of a survey team, you will look up high on the balcony. Amongst those watching the crowd, find the two Sikh gentlemen. One with a purple turban and the other with a black turban. They are not doing anything wrong, just enjoying the view along with some of their co workers.

Now click View All so that it takes you back out again.

Exercise two: Look down at the lower right corner and find the male bike rider wearing a bright red jersey. Look at all of the shenanigans around him. Torsos without heads. Jeans with nothing above them.

Exercise three: Look in the windows in the nearest building to the right. Find the "Solidarity" poster. OpSec. Remember your computer screen angles and window angles onto your desk top computer, etc...

This picture was taken with a 70,000 x 30,000 pixel camera (2100 Mega Pixels.) These cameras are not sold to the public and are being installed in strategic locations. The camera can identify a face among a multitude of people. Place your computer's cursor in the mass of people and double-click a couple times (or 'finger-spread' on a device.) Scary sharp!!


http://www.gigapixel.com/mobile/?id=79995

Once you get to the link above you can move around and zoom (super zoom) or zoom out. In one spot down low to the left of the bicycle rider you can also find a guy holding a smartphone. I'd say if you are watching realtime you could see him dial a number just using thumb movements on a known device.

Have fun! Orwell would not approve.


There are a couple glitches I found.

The most interesting is there is a group of Arab looking people with knit head coverings, most are blue, a couple are black and there are (2) blue with white stripe mid right of the Hamilton Street light pole. One of the men with the Blue knit with white strip is wearing glasses. 2 people down from him is a man with a black hockey shirt with half his afro missing. If his Afro were in tact you would only see partial faces of the women behind him. And directly to the man in the blacks right is a block were the images remain blurred no matter what the magnification.


That weird! maybe some new Xray technology or maybe Photoshop

[The Reaper]

Pas, cut fences leave a clear trail and azimuth. I learned that when I started to do it one night in Central America and my Team Sergeant schooled me.

I had a camping axe or hatchet and a small set of bolt cutters on my list. I might be able to replace the bolt cutters with a good set of fence pliers, now that you mention it, though I would lose the ability to cut padlocks off. Everything is a compromise.

Not sure the vehicles would flood the streets to be a good diversion, or that the LEOs would all be there, instead of looking after their own families, but I suppose that you could use it for that.

Amen on the spring or fall. I hate humping a ruck in the summer.


steel, there is food and water (or your selection) in the BoB, you were citing items, so I thought that was your complete list. Freeze-dried is expensive and requires water, but in this case, I think at least a few days worth would be a good idea. Maybe a stripped MRE or two with some spare desserts and accessory packs would be nice. Some trail mix and some power bars for energy while on the move. And some non-perishable carbs to go with any game or fish you might snag. I like dehydrated pre-cooked rice or some beans. Hot sauce and pepper can help hide the flavor of something you are tired of or is less than palatable.


ODNT, actually, I think it is damn near impossible to hide these days, if they want you badly enough. They got Osama, the Unibomber, Tim McVeigh, and Eric Rudolph. Eventually, we would all make a mistake and get picked up by either a dedicated asset, or just a chance contact. I would just hope that they had higher priority targets, especially for their aerial surveillance assets.


I would also remind everyone of an earlier post on walking shoes or boots. If you are at worek when somethign happens, getting home could be a challenge if you have to hoof it and are wearing something less than practical footwear. Maybe keep a gym bag at work or in your car with water bottles, some snacks, a pair of walking shoes or low boots, spare socks, a towel, a can of OC spray, etc. That might come in very handy and not look particularly out of place.

TR

[Paslode]

*delete*

[The Reaper]

I have researched it before and want to reload some 308 subsonics. Historically the issue has been small amounts of powder can cause reliably issues with ignition. A few years ago a powder called trail boss came out for cowboy action shooters. Without getting into details it seems to be great for subsonic loads. 9-11 grains seem to be good for subsonics in .308 and since it has a high capacity for bang it fills the case well.

I am going to reload some for my .308 just for kicks, but if you are a reloader this might be a good option for you to load and keep around.

Good luck.

We were looking for subsonic .308 a few years back, and could not find a single brand that was consistently reliable, safe, and accurate.

That is a lot of case capacity to try and fill with something other than powder.

TR

[Ape Man]

When I started to think about TR's scenario in terms of specific plan suited to my area and my likely point of travel instead of just being a general idea, it quickly became clear that gear is the least of my concerns. What I am really having a problem with is the tactics/skills that I would use in a hypothetical scenario.

If it is not too off topic of the subject of guns, let me throw one of my problems out there.

The road that I live on runs between two fairly major roads by rural standards. One in a upland road, the other runs along a river. Let us say that the bad guys have a list names on my street that they want to take in. Let us say that they have a blocking force along the river and the door kicking force starts at the upland road and works its way down my road taking people in. Let us say that this all goes down at 4 AM (because that is when I would do it if I wanted bring a bunch of people in).

If I get TR's allotted 5 minutes of warning, the obvious thing for me to do in run out my back door where I have a mile straight of uninterrupted woods. The problem I have is how do I navigate in those woods?

When I was young, I did a lot of walking around in fields and light woods in the dark (I was a weird kid). I had a lot better night vision back then but even so the deep wood was too dark for me to effectively navigate. Even though I knew the woods well, there is next to no light under a reasonably heavy canopy. And with next to no light, you can get lost in a familiar setting same as if you were blindfolded.

In darkness that deep, it can be hard to line up your compass with a point far enough ahead to do you any good. If you had another person with you that you could send ahead with a glow stick, you could use the bounding method.

Would a glow stick be too much of a risk? How would you navigate if you were by yourself?

[The Reaper]

When I started to think about TR's scenario in terms of specific plan suited to my area and my likely point of travel instead of just being a general idea, it quickly became clear that gear is the least of my concerns. What I am really having a problem with is the tactics/skills that I would use in a hypothetical scenario.

If it is not too off topic of the subject of guns, let me throw one of my problems out there.

The road that I live on runs between two fairly major roads by rural standards. One in a upland road, the other runs along a river. Let us say that the bad guys have a list names on my street that they want to take in. Let us say that they have a blocking force along the river and the door kicking force starts at the upland road and works its way down my road taking people in. Let us say that this all goes down at 4 AM (because that is when I would do it if I wanted bring a bunch of people in).

If I get TR's allotted 5 minutes of warning, the obvious thing for me to do in run out my back door where I have a mile straight of uninterrupted woods. The problem I have is how do I navigate in those woods?

When I was young, I did a lot of walking around in fields and light woods in the dark (I was a weird kid). I had a lot better night vision back then but even so the deep wood was too dark for me to effectively navigate. Even though I knew the woods well, there is next to no light under a reasonably heavy canopy. And with next to no light, you can get lost in a familiar setting same as if you were blindfolded.

In darkness that deep, it can be hard to line up your compass with a point far enough ahead to do you any good. If you had another person with you that you could send ahead with a glow stick, you could use the bounding method.

Would a glow stick be too much of a risk? How would you navigate if you were by yourself?

If there is no trail through the woods, I would pick an azimuth and set it on a compass that glowed. I would know the general pace count and would try to stay on azimuth while moving fast.

Does it matter if you come out a couple of hundred meters to either side of your desired exit point? If not, I would consider running it on a general heading and move fast.

You could also terrain associate and follow a stream or depression through the woods.

What is on the other side of the woods and to either side? See "handrails" and "backstops" in land nav.

I would not use a regular or hi-intensity glow stick to follwo someone. A well-charged pair of ranger eyes on the back of a hat or ruck should be plenty to follow and will not give away your position anywhere near as badly as a glow stick.

NVGs or, if absolutely necessary, a red LED light could be used, but I don't personally think you need it. You can also get luminous thumbtacks and markers to mark your route, but for a mile, I can't see using one just to cross the woods. You aren't in a triple canopy jungle or something really thick, are you?

A good orienteering class or two might be helpful.

Hope that helps.

TR

[koz]

I have researched it before and want to reload some 308 subsonics. Historically the issue has been small amounts of powder can cause reliably issues with ignition. A few years ago a powder called trail boss came out for cowboy action shooters. Without getting into details it seems to be great for subsonic loads. 9-11 grains seem to be good for subsonics in .308 and since it has a high capacity for bang it fills the case well.

I am going to reload some for my .308 just for kicks, but if you are a reloader this might be a good option for you to load and keep around.

Good luck.

We were looking for subsonic .308 a few years back, and could not find a single brand that was consistently reliable, safe, and accurate.

That is a lot of case capacity to try and fill with something other than powder.

TR

IMR Trail Boss will reliably keep a 180-190 gr .30 bullet subsonic and it's safe. There are few examples of SEE with TB. I use 10.7 gr with a Hornady 180gr BTSP Interbond. That's with a 18" barrel and suppressor. I built the load at 100F day and it's right about 50fps below supersonic velocity. Quick load shows that load at supersonic velocity, but I've used a Magnetospeed chrono (I've had it compared to an Oheler 85 and it was pretty accurate) and I was right at 1075fps. That load gives a 72% fill volume and 100% burn. I have opened up the flash holes in the past but stopped and haven't seen any difference.

Trail boss is a donut shaped powder that has a huge volume. Loads up to 338LM have been tested using it successfully. Subsonic drag profiles are very different than supersonic profiles. Basically velocity loss doesn't occur as fast as a supersonic round.


If you load subs, make sure you test without a suppressor to ensure you don't have key-holes @100 or you risk getting a baffle strike. I've popped a few animals with subs. Just consider you're basically shooting a 45ACP so aim accordingly.

[PSM]

:DPat, I am of the same mindset, I would prefer to stay at home, but unless your plan is to do the "die in place" routine, it never hurts to have a contingency to hit the trail. You get my point. You can't take it all, or even most of it very far. I know where I would go if flushed, and I hope you do too. Never hurts to check out some maps and maybe visit a few points that you found of interest.

“Omnia mea mecum porto”

TR

Actually, I'm pretty familiar with every route out except the river route that I mentioned. While it is the most convenient course, eliminating the need to carry water, it is also the most obvious to the bad guys. Not knowing what the actual threat is limits this scenario a bit. If it's renegade gangs from CA looting their way East, I'd more than likely stay near the river. If it's a government entity with UAVs, I'd head to the mountains and look for mine shafts (marked on topos) to hunker down in.

While you gave us 5 minutes to "Get out of Dodge", you didn't say that comms are down and arranging meets at RPs is out of the question, so I still may be able to meet up with TS. :D

Pat

[Paslode]

Pas, cut fences leave a clear trail and azimuth. I learned that when I started to do it one night in Central America and my Team Sergeant schooled me.

I had a camping axe or hatchet and a small set of bolt cutters on my list. I might be able to replace the bolt cutters with a good set of fence pliers, now that you mention it, though I would lose the ability to cut padlocks off. Everything is a compromise.

Not sure the vehicles would flood the streets to be a good diversion, or that the LEOs would all be there, instead of looking after their own families, but I suppose that you could use it for that.

Amen on the spring or fall. I hate humping a ruck in the summer.


Good tip on leaving a trail with cut fence, it never crossed my mind!

Maybe better way of putting the traffic distraction, those in cars in my immediate AO in many cases are themselves going to be distracted or focused straight ahead and unaware of what is going on around them.

For example late last month while at soccer practice with my daughter, I heard a train crossing the track as usual, then I heard a car accelerating down the road, then I heard lots of sirens for various directions, then I heard cars screech to a stop and then I just heard the train. It was out of the ordinary

All that happened within 200m of the building we were in, and out of about 25 parents there I was the only person that walked out the open overhead door to see what was going on......Oodles and gobs of police with long guns and pistols drawn had surrounded a small parking lot on the opposite side of the street.

It should be noted that a several kids took notice and peeked out to see what all the ruckus was all about.

After a bit I walked back in and told one of the Dads what was going on. He walked back out with me, I pointed out the police and their guns.....are you sure they have their guns out? How can you tell? :rolleyes:

Based on that experience the odds were that 1 in 25 would recognize a potential threat and avoid it, and that 24 in 25 would be distracted and susceptible to threats.

If you include all the kids, you are talking 60-75 people with only one person taking any real notice of the situation.

[dollarbill]

I'd grab every weapon the wife and myself own. The Rem 870 with 4 boxes of bird shot, 2 boxes of 00 and 2 boxes of slugs. Springfield 40xd and the wife has a Tarus Millennium, both have 10 loaded mags, and my MK3 Spec Plus. Fishing poles and tacklebox would also be gathered. Also a small AM/FM Radio with spare 9 volt battery. I'd get the dog (German Shepherd,Rot,Pointer mix. Yeap she's a mutt) and two fully charged 12 volt car batteries. I'd put the batteries and other items on a plastic snow sled that's kept in the back yard.. The wife, dog and myself would head out the back door and pull the batteries 250 yards down a slight hill through the flood plan area(wooded area) to the White River. This is where I keep the flat stern canoe with a 45# trolling motor. We would head up river away from Indianapolis, paddling when needed, using the motor to cover ground quickly. The river is know for catfish and small mouth. Deer are also found along the banks. Also, by heading away from the city we quickly reach farm land to provide more cover and food opportunities.

Passing thought. May also try to contact some farmers along the way to increase my fighting size and survivability. This would depend on the situation.

[PSM]

You can't take it all, or even most of it very far.

[Y]ou can almost always circle around back onto your preferred route.

I almost missed that!

Like Surf n Turf, I've always thought about "forward" caching. With only 5 minutes notice, out the door, you are heading in a known (to you) direction determined at the time of the notification. Taking everything you have for the first few miles is not that hard. Taking a break and analyzing your situation and determining a plan of action, you can then decide what you need to cache, at your present location, and what you need to carry forward. After the threat has lessened, and if needed, you can always return to the "hasty cache" and retrieve what is needed.

Pat

[koz]

Thanks. I have a very high quality bolt action and a M1A aka M-14. I would like to develop loads for both. What is max range on subsonics before drop off gets to bad in your opinion? BTW the twist on the rifles are 1:10 and 1:11. Will the 180 or 190 stabilize at those velocities with those twists or will I have to drop my bullet weight? Also did you use regular or magnum primers?

My barrels all 1:11.25 and I went with the 180s. It was just more accurate. With the 1:10, you should be able to go to the 190s. I'd try both and if they're not keyholing, then you will be good with a suppressor.

I did not use magnum primers, Win Large Rifle.

As far as max range, you can get pretty far out, but it becomes a "howitzer" shot. I don't have my notes in front of me but the velocity loss was less than you'd think. I was fine hitting plates @ 300m but if the winds were blowing, it took a lot of guess work (the round was often very high above the ground). I've witnessed guys shoot out to 900m with 338 subsonics.

[Beef]

Here's my take on the some of the long guns: bring what you need for a firefight. AR's or M-4s. Appropriate ammo. If you're on the run, do you want to be dropping deer and other game that need more than a .22 to bring down? You can't carry a lot of unpreserved meat, so you'll only cut off pretty much what you'll cook and eat in the very near future. And you'll leave a trail of slaughtered deer/elk, etc. Much like the cut barbed wire. If you stick to small game, you can carry it for little while until you can prepare it if necessary and then hide the remains or scatter them to look like a natural demise. I'd go with my AR with 180 round in mags/stripper clips as some of you described above and my Sig P226 with 3 15 round mags. Since I don't have a .22 conversion kit ( but getting one as a result of this thread, thanks TR!) I'd also take my trusty Colt Woodsman and a box of 50 rounds.

As far as food goes, I think that stuff like Carbo-Plex and protein supplements deserve some attention. While not tasty, they can fill the bill for fuel for the machine. While not totally depending on those, in addition to some regular light weight food, you should have a good base of that.

For those of you who have little field experience, go backpacking the "Ray Way." Ray Jardine has perfected an ultralight lifestyle of minimalist backpacking that is very efficient, once you get the system and techniques down. Small, fast and light.

Snickers bars were mentioned above. LOL! When I cross trained as an 18C in 1981, one of the Demo committee guys ONLY ate Snickers in the field. Six a day. He froze them, wrapped them in pairs in multiple layers on aluminum foil and froze them some more. Then rolled them in a doubled poncho liner. Could go 5 days in the summer and much longer in the fall and winter. The rest of the committee backed him up. He always said, "Man cannot live by Snickers alone! You gotta have coffee!"

My long-winded .01

[PSM]

Snickers bars were mentioned above. LOL! When I cross trained as an 18C in 1981, one of the Demo committee guys ONLY ate Snickers in the field. Six a day. He froze them, wrapped them in pairs in multiple layers on aluminum foil and froze them some more. Then rolled them in a doubled poncho liner. Could go 5 days in the summer and much longer in the fall and winter. The rest of the committee backed him up. He always said, "Man cannot live by Snickers alone! You gotta have coffee!"

My long-winded .01

I love the dark chocolate Snickers! I try to always carry them but I am stingy with them because they're hard to find.

Pat

[The Reaper]

koz - Good tip on the Trail Boss, will have to check it out. 10.7 grains of any other powder I know will not even fill 50% of a .308 case.

PSM - Understood that in arid environments, water sources tend to be collection points. BTW, if you power up a cell phone, or maybe even leave the battery in it, you are done and will be found in less than 60 minutes. I would not take any modern electronics, except NVGs.

dollarbill - I would think you would get a lot better performance out of a deep cycle battery than a car battery. Maybe even throw a solar panel on it to get as much as you can out of it. Good, easy, fast travel along the water, but it is also not easy to hide from people along and over it, and it is likely to be watched. The point in the instructions to be walking 100 miles is to see what weapons and associated gear you would take and move tactically with. Using a sled and a boat to take a safe's worth of guns kind of defeats the purpose.

PSM - You got it. All you need is a place to hide the items you were dumping for later. A couple of 5-6 gallon buckets woule be good for the short stuff, a 55 gallon drum is also nice, but you can't exactly grab it by the handle and haul ass with it.

koz - No lie about the drift. I expect the same issues with the .300 Blackout, though the 220 gr. and 240 gr. bullets at 1050 fps should hold a little better than the 180 due to their improved BC. The challenge is getting the rifle set up to reliably run everything from 110s to 240s.

Beef - Sounds like you are taking just what you need. I don't think I would want to be chasing you through the woods. The Colt is a good pistol, maybe a little fragile, especially with the years on it and metallurgical changes. I am thinking I need a Ruger .22/45 Lite for myself. With the threaded barrel, it should be a natural for a little rimfire can. Mmm, Snickers!

Brush - Yep, a .22LR will kill a deer, often cleanly, in the right hands. Not sure how many people are capable of doing that on a regular basis, and cleaning and jerking a deer might take a little while.

Pat - I will be stingy with pretty much everything I had to hump. When I was a grunt, I always hated the guys who would go out for five days with one canteen, half the mags they should have had, a couple of meals, and a 1/2 can of Cope. Then spend the next four days bumming from everyone else. They were fast and light, but IMHO, had no pride or self respect. On Day Five, a cigarette is worth big bucks. Hmm, that might be the same in this scenario....

TR

[Ape Man]

If there is no trail through the woods, I would pick an azimuth and set it on a compass that glowed. I would know the general pace count and would try to stay on azimuth while moving fast.

Does it matter if you come out a couple of hundred meters to either side of your desired exit point? If not, I would consider running it on a general heading and move fast.

You could also terrain associate and follow a stream or depression through the woods.

What is on the other side of the woods and to either side? See "handrails" and "backstops" in land nav.


TR

Thanks for the response.

"Handrails" and "Backstops" get to the heart of what my mental problem is. I understand how I would navigate if concealment was not an issue. You make the river your handrail, the highway your back stop and you are good to go for most of the trip I would need to take. You try to stay on the high ground as much as possible and focus on covering ground.

It is trying to pick out a trail that is navigable and still in cover that gives me headaches. I could make a trail through heavy forest for much of my trip with only short hops over open spaces. The mile behind my house is just a start. But the reason for that is that in most cases it is rough steep ground unprofitable to farm that was given back to the state.

It is no tipple canopy, but it is hard for me to imagine that it gets much darker than under a stand of mature pines. And even when you are under maple, there is not much light at all when you have cloud cover (60% of the time around here). So on my preferred route, I see myself scrambling around in the dark going up steep hills with no trail trying count paces and hoping that I recognize the ravine I am heading for before I go down into it.

Maybe I am over complicating it. Maybe I should just take an easier route and trust the dark for my cover. I don't know. That is why I asked.

But I do realize it is one of those things that you can't learn by talking about it. You have to spend some time doing it. And thanks for the tip about rangers eyes.

The next question that bothering me is how do I cross the Mohawk river and the I-90 corridor?

It is a fun mental exercise.

[GratefulCitizen]

Something to consider in urban settings when trying blend with the environment during movement.
Not politically correct, but reality nonetheless.

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

[The Reaper]

Something to consider in urban settings when trying blend with the environment during movement.
Not politically correct, but reality nonetheless.

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

Good point.

Obviously, cutting through backyards on the run with a long gun in your hand will raise more attention than walking by on the sidewalk, appropriately dressed, with a small pack on and no guns visible. In fact, in some areas, you might arouse less suspicion dressed shabbily and pushing your goods in a shopping cart, riding a bike, or jogging in PT clothes.

There are places and times for each. Unless I had some network or overwhelming reason to stay, I would be getting out of the metropolitan area and into the woods as soon as possible.

Once there, I would try and work routes that kept me away from populated areas and under the most overhead cover possible. Pray it isn't hunting season.

As Ape Man pointed out, you will have large danger areas to cross along your path, some of which will be unavoidable. You would want to cross them as inconspicouosly as possible, preferably at a place and time when there is minimum visibility and traffic.

If you are moving in woods and want to stay undercover, you should not be moving up hill or in the in the higher areas. An untraveled ravine with relatively light vegetation would be great for a tactical foot movement where you were tring to minimize exposure.

And you would not believe how much darker a triple canopy is than a pine forest.

TR

[dollarbill]

[QUOTE=The Reaper

dollarbill - I would think you would get a lot better performance out of a deep cycle battery than a car battery. Maybe even throw a solar panel on it to get as much as you can out of it. Good, easy, fast travel along the water, but it is also not easy to hide from people along and over it, and it is likely to be watched. The point in the instructions to be walking 100 miles is to see what weapons and associated gear you would take and move tactically with. Using a sled and a boat to take a safe's worth of guns kind of defeats the purpose


TR[/QUOTE]

Thanks Reaper. I always thought the river was my best and only route and never gave it any more thought. Your post #119 got the wheels spinning. If the river is taken out, I would definitely have to navigate the suburbs. I still think I would get all my weapons (Rem 870 and the two 40 cal.) Would also get the hiking gear:
Black Diamond Infinity 60
Hilleberg AKTO Shelter
Francis 27-8 alcohol stove
Aqua Pure water filtration (a little bottle filed with iodine crystals. Good for about 2000 liters)
550 cord
1st aid kit
Dehydrated fruit
MRE's
Small Altoid Mint case with various size fishing hooks inside the lid with 100 feet of 12# test wrapped around a pencil,various weights and small lures.
Compass and map
What I'm thinkink is ( please correct me if I'm off) Once I determine the direction I need to go, work my way through the suburbs. Pick up one of the major roads heading in my direction. These roads have moderate to heavy wood line. Stay well into the wood but follow the road. The reason behind following the road is water is really scattered in Indiana. Along the roads there is small subdivisions to resupply water and possible raid gardens.

[fng13]

This thread got me thinking and I'm wondering about adding a sling shot to my kit.

Lightweight, ammo everywhere, quiet, relatively easy to use for squirrel and other small game at short range.

Seems like a worthwhile addition.

Also, not a weapon of course, but something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that I think my lock pick set might come in handy if I was on the run.

[Sdiver]

A sling shot/wrist rocket .... nice idea.
Get one of those and a couple extra bands/slings when the one being used gets worn out, maybe 2 or 2.5 pounds top, added to your bag.

Looks like I've got some shopping to do.

[Rob_Frey]

Another stealth weapon people might want to consider is a cross bow. I am an archery hunter and a bow can take down large as well as small game. I dont have a cross bow but you can get optics for them such as a red dot for night use.

As well as scopes with illuminated dots at three yardage lines. I have a Ten Point scope on my Ten Point Crossbow. Very accurate within its range limits.

I haven't posted my escape plan, because with my physical disabilities, I'm not walking 100 miles in less than a month, if I can make it that far at all. But I really do enjoy this thread a lot.

[dollarbill]

After reviewing this thread I've decided my fire power was a little weak. A friend is selling a couple of weapons, one I was sort of interested in. Shot him an offer I thought he would laugh at. I'm now the proud owner of a mini thirty. Will leave the house on my 100 mile journey with it.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Reading this thread and the responses has prompted another question in my mind. Not to take from TR's podium too much, but -

How have you guys chosen to load bearing all this equipment? Lets take for instance you have a 45Lb B-O-B (average 3-day pack), 15-20Lbs of weapons (some of you have another 20Lbs of ammo), and then there are some specific "must haves" that are either climate or geographical in nature...

Describe how you load out on your person each and every piece of equipment deemed important enough (or by importance to the success of your endeavor) to get you from point "A" to point "Z" being 100-miles away?

Be specific, and think about what you can and cannot afford to jettison should you have to to evade capture or get in an extended fight where time or failure means game over. Be very specific about how and where you will carry the weapons you have chosen (including edged) and sufficient ammo for each type.

This is a mental exercise whereas each piece of your "kit" is assembled and carried in such a way that if you are forced to run and hide or out run you can dump the unnecessary comfort items and continue with the mission in the best possible outcome.

[Ape Man]

This thread got me thinking and I'm wondering about adding a sling shot to my kit.

Lightweight, ammo everywhere, quiet, relatively easy to use for squirrel and other small game at short range.

Seems like a worthwhile addition.

Also, not a weapon of course, but something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that I think my lock pick set might come in handy if I was on the run.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever used a sling shot to hit small game? When I was younger, I had one and I had ambitions of getting squirrels with it. As it turned out, I was lucky to hit the broad side of the barn with that thing.

Now I am one of those people who had to really work to become a half way decent shot with a rifle. And I know that there is people out there who can just pick up anything and hit their target. But from my limited experience, the learning curve on a sling shot is way sharper than it is on a firearm or even a bow.

[fng13]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever used a sling shot to hit small game? When I was younger, I had one and I had ambitions of getting squirrels with it. As it turned out, I was lucky to hit the broad side of the barn with that thing.

Now I am one of those people who had to really work to become a half way decent shot with a rifle. And I know that there is people out there who can just pick up anything and hit their target. But from my limited experience, the learning curve on a sling shot is way sharper than it is on a firearm or even a bow.


Yes actually I have, squirrels and birds (birds for fun before I knew better). I'm not sure if you mean the old style without a wrist support but those with the wrist support and a good sling aren't that hard to use especially at short range.

Maybe it's not a hit every time but it sure beats trying to ping them with a rock. You can get pretty close to squirrels and rabbits and stuff. You don't have to be a sniper.

I don't think the learning curve is higher than a firearm, especially not a pistol, but I was an outdoorsy kid. This suggestion was not to replace firearms but to add something that doesn't need extra ammo to be carried, although ball bearings are great for sling shots.

It's also certainly much lighter than carrying around a bow in the situation we are describing. I don't want to be lugging around a rifle, pistol, ammo for both, and then try to carry a bow or a crossbow. I don't know how some of you guys plan on carrying this stuff and moving with any sort of speed.

YMMV though

[Ape Man]

It's also certainly much lighter than carrying around a bow in the situation we are describing. I don't want to be lugging around a rifle, pistol, ammo for both, and then try to carry a bow or a crossbow. I don't know how some of you guys plan on carrying this stuff and moving with any sort of speed.

YMMV though

I am totally with you on the load thing and I think carrying a sling is a great idea if you know how to use one. I know it is possible to use even the old style ones with out the brace to good effect. I saw a you tube clip of an old southern boy who could use one to hit unbelievable targets. He grew up dirt poor and that is how he got food.

My first sling was also without the brace so that might account for some of my frustration. Latter on, one of my brothers got one with a brace but by that time I had given up on the darn things.

[dollarbill]

Back pack:
Black Diamond Infinity 60L (3lbs3oz)
Hilleberg AKTO Shelter (2.5 lbs)
Trangia 27-8 UL/HA Stove (1.5 lbs)
Marmot rain gear
Maglite
1 stay can DEET
1 roll toilet paper
2 empty Gatorade bottles (to purify water)
2 liter camel back with siphoning tube
2 MRE's
2 pair of socks
Dehydrated fruit/beef jerky
Binoculars
Looks like a lot but it's all ultralight. Less than 25 pounds.

Butt Pack
Bic lighter and flint w/striker
Aqua pure iodine crystals
1st aid kit (3-4x4, 2-8x8 dressing, roll of gause, aspirin,antibiotics cream,cloth tape, mole skin and a suture kit)
550 cord
1 pair of socks
90 day supply of Blood Pressure meds
2 40cal mags.

In pockets
2 Mini 30 mag
Mini maglite
Fishing tackle ( Altoids tin mint case: various size hooks taped inside the lid, 100ft 12# test line wrapped around a pencil, some weights and small lures)
Compass

Xd40-tactical holster strong side, double mag holder on weak side.
Taurus Millennium ankle holster
MK 3 MOD knife weak side on belt
Mini 30 carrying, 2-20 round mags taped together (I'm old school)

Spare ammo would be carried in hip stash pocket on butt and back pack. Could also put spare ammo in side stretch pocket of back pack.

An excellent idea that was posted was to push a shopping cart. I'd also put change on clothing (to blend in)in a garbage bag and grab a small tarp. There's a Target less than a quarter of a mile away. I'd put pack, clothing and Mini 30 (with quick access) in the cart and cover with the tarp,drawing less attention. If I had to ditch the cart, weapon and pack could be easily taken.

If I had to dump the back pack, would at least grap the AKTO shelter and put as much ammo as I could fit around in the storage bag along with the shelter.

[Quietus]

I'm going to try and answer TR's question by staying real narrowly within the boundary of that 45lb BoB, just bringing out a few carried items to discuss why they are carried. Also grabbed, is a belt/suspenders rig.

For that travel, much in my AO might be able to be done in daylight and still avoid detection (drones, probably not, but there's not much call for them here just now.) Travel assumption though, is to lie up during daylight and travel at night. I carry poncho and cord, liner, casualty blanket, field jacket liner, a neck gaiter and polypro LJs always. A light mesh 3' x 6' veil is nice to keep the flies away from nap time, and it does good to make the day hide harder to see.

For a trip that far, I'd prefer a state aero chart. My map provides the landmarks that a person is going to see, plus a sense of what the other folks are looking at. It's showing of relief and of drainages is not bad, for a single map that covers much territory. For other looking around, Steiner 8x30 M&M binos, they are good enough and light enough. And a Silva Ranger compass (what an 11C instructor once told me was a nice "throw-away" compass.)

I'd take a small water filtration pump to help out the two (hopefully, with 5 min notice, full) British 1L water bottles and an empty '67 vintage USGI 2 qt bladder (the old ones are real soft and collapse better than the new ones do.)

A taped-up pack of three AAA cells for my headlamp.

I'd probably be eating a lot of ibuprofin, and would want to have something stronger for pain and muscle cramping. 5-hr energy bottles work pretty well for me.

My bag doesn't provide cooking facilities beyond a canteen cup and hexy stove. Bullion, tea, and a couple Ramens might help morale and stave cravings for what real food remains in the bag. A Bic lighter, much as I dislike them, helps to light outdated farmer's matches, and to relight their burnt stumps.

The loadout would be the above carried in the BoB and on belt/suspenders. The belt doesn't weigh too much: two 9mm pistol mags; two 5.56mm rifle mags;Molle II waistpack with one water bottle, matches, Steiners, compass, Clif bars, socks/foot powder; and a box of .22LR mmo inside; Ek Bowie, Glock G17; and a first aid pouch.

Earlier posts have made me realize that pot hunting would probably be part of the trip. So, an old Ruger Mk1 in an old tanker holster would be a good thing.

I'd probably be carrying a 16" AR with a light on it. Two mags on the belt, and three mags and a bandoleer of 120 rounds in the pack.

I'd be happy enough to take my M1 carbine with four spare 15-rd mags. Only thing is, resupply if required, would not be like the domino theory of weapons acquisition. At the end of the 100-mile trip, things would be no cheerier, unless I'd pre-positioned that gun's ammunition.

[BryanK]

Reading this thread and the responses has prompted another question in my mind. Not to take from TR's podium too much, but -

How have you guys chosen to load bearing all this equipment? Lets take for instance you have a 45Lb B-O-B (average 3-day pack), 15-20Lbs of weapons (some of you have another 20Lbs of ammo), and then there are some specific "must haves" that are either climate or geographical in nature...

Describe how you load out on your person each and every piece of equipment deemed important enough (or by importance to the success of your endeavor) to get you from point "A" to point "Z" being 100-miles away?

Be specific, and think about what you can and cannot afford to jettison should you have to to evade capture or get in an extended fight where time or failure means game over. Be very specific about how and where you will carry the weapons you have chosen (including edged) and sufficient ammo for each type.

This is a mental exercise whereas each piece of your "kit" is assembled and carried in such a way that if you are forced to run and hide or out run you can dump the unnecessary comfort items and continue with the mission in the best possible outcome.

My set up excluding what my wife would be carrying (already posted earlier in the thread) if we chose to bug instead of stand our ground. I modified my gear from my original post a bit. Also, each garment will be doubled as to accommodate the wife as well. The 700 will be cross-slung at a 45 degree angle on my back with the .22 at the ready, but it has a sling as well. Here it goes:

Medium ALICE ruck main compartment from bottom to top:

1pr BDU bottoms (rolled)
1 Fleece top (rolled)
2pr Socks
2pr Underoos
1ea Mini maglite
1ea Camping pot
1ea Loaf of bread
2ea 6 pack(s) of crackers
1 ea Small bag of Fritos

In that little pouch toward the top of the pack:

2ea MRE's
1ea Small first aid kit
1ea Survival FM

Medium ALICE ruck pockets:

Left pocket: My roll of 550 cord (unsure of measurement but there is a lot of it), 6 spare batteries for Surfire light and an 8 pack of AA batteries.

Center pocket: 2 flattened (no tube) rolls of TP.

Right pocket: 1ea roll of OD green 100mph tape, 1 8 pack of AAA batteries, and an extra fishing bag (explained below under "worn")

Outside of ALICE ruck:

E-tool with pouch, 1 empty two quart canteen with pouch, 2ea woobies, and 2ea ponchos in separate dump pouches affixed to the sides of the ruck above the canteen and e-tool pouches.

LBE (I have the same thing as the picture below with a butt pack):

Right magazine pockets: 4ea 10 round magazines of CCI .22 ammo on top pocket; 10ea rounds of .308 in plastic sleeve, and 20ea rounds of super colibri in this styrofoam pouch thing I made in bottom pocket.

Left magazine pockets: 10 rounds of .308 in plastic sleeve it came in

Right grenade pouch: 60 rounds of CCI .22

Left grenade pouch: 80 rounds of colibiri's

Butt pack: First aid kit, bug juice, 2pr socks, 1ea MRE guts.

Pistol belt: 1ea 1qt canteen with cup and pouch, M9 holster w/ M9, and my fixed blade with pouch.

Worn:

Head: Ball cap and Petzl headlamp when needed.

Torso: Camelback, and weather dependent clothing.

Left hip, exterior: Gerber multi-tool and cell phone w/pouches for both.

Left cargo pocket: Fishing bag (2 bobbers, several split-shot sinkers, a pack of #8 & #2 snelled hooks, stringer, 2 bucktail, and 2 grub lures).

Right cargo pocket: Smartbook (just kidding)

Left pocket: Probably a half a pack of cigarettes, and keys.

Right pocket: Bic lighter, and my folder clip slipped over the top lining, knife inside pocket.

Right, Back pocket: Wallet.

Drop leg rig, left side: 2 double mag pouch for 9mm ammo (total of 60rounds between 3 pouched up mags and 15 loaded in pistol).

I'm sure I left something out, but this is what I came up with for now.

[The Reaper]

Looks like we are moving from the weapons to the ruck and load contents.

IRT ODNT's question, some of you have the idea of multiple layers of gear, but not exactly what goes in them. We have discussed this before, but for the benefit of the latecomers, let's review.

There are three primary layers or "lines" of gear.

Your first line is what you have on you. This would be in your pockets or attached to your pants belt. This layer would include your clothes, boots, hat, belt, primary firemaking gear, some signaling items in your pockets, a knife and/or multitool, some cordage, a flashlight, microlight, or headlamp, a pocket survival kit, your map, compass, a pocket first aid kit, EDC litter, pistol (if worn on your pants), pistol ammo pouches, maybe a power bar or some hard candies, etc. Possibly some water purification tabs. Basically, you can survive at a very reduced level with your first line. Most people would try and carry at least one weapon on their first line. I have used first line gear ranging from pocket items and a belt with multitool to a war belt with suspenders, a dump pouch, larger knife and pistol, spare ammo, flashlight, etc.

Your second line gear is generally your fighting load consisting of your weapon and LCE or vest, to include your body armor and items carried on your LCE like ammo, a trauma kit, binos, a large knife, a handheld radio in a pouch, water, etc. You might drop your second line while in camp, unfasten it for water ops, or other activities where you were relatively secure. Try to have enough stuff here that you could, along with your first line, make it to your objective without the ruck.

Finally, your third line loadout would consist of your sustainment gear, with your ruck, and its contents. This contains your shelter items, food, additional water, spare batteries, etc. Your third line would likely be dropped for actual combat requiring quick movement.

You need to figure out what you absolutely have to carry to survive, and build your first line around carrying that.

Then what you need to fight effectively, and how to carry it for your second line.

Everything else goes in your ruck as third line gear.

You guys have the concept, but might want to tune it a bit before jocking up and moving out.

Don't forget that there is a weight limit. Frankly, if you are carrying more than 1/3 of your body weight, unless you do that for a living, you are a pack mule and are tactically ineffective.

Try putting everything on your list on you or in your ruck and hit the woods with it for a few hours or perhaps overnight. You might wind up making a big pile of it on the floor and figure if you didn't take it out of the pack for an overnighter, are you really going to need it when you are on the run?

Slingshots are handy. But a survival situation is no time to be learning how to use one or to count on it to put food in the pot.

A pistol is a close range back-up weapon. I would not be storing my spare pistol mags in a butt pack. You might not live to regret that. Same for putting rifle mags in pockets. Put them on your rig and practice tac reloads and speed reloads. If you want to hide them, wear another garment over them.

If it were wet or winter weather, a large overcoat, raincoat, or greatcoat (large enough to wear over your second line and maybe your pack) might be a good thing to grab and throw on when you are on the way out. Less conspicuous than a poncho.

Glad to see everyone remembered the TP. With the potential for bad water and questionable food, you could use a lot of it quickly. And it beats the hell out of leaves. If you are on an MRE diet, you might find the opposite problem, but thankfully, each MRE has its own TP supply. If you have a few extras, or find some accessory packs, take several TP packs and put them in a sealed Zip-Loc bag to keep them dry.

Leg holsters look cool, but unless you wear one every day, I doubt that you are going to be making much distance before you pull it off and chuck it.

One thing to remember about rucks is that the load usually grows to fill the space available. A big ruck may have room for things you find along the way, but it weighs more and you will likely find things to fill it.

Good to see people are thinking about their loads and what to bring, as well as what to leave behind.

TR

[Old Dog New Trick]

Looks like we are moving from the weapons to the ruck and load contents.

IRT ODNT's question, some of you have the idea of multiple layers of gear, but not exactly what goes in them. We have discussed this before, but for the benefit of the latecomers, let's review.

There are three primary layers or "lines" of gear.

Your first line is what you have on you. This would be in your pockets or attached to your pants belt. This layer would include your clothes, boots, hat, belt, primary firemaking gear, some signaling items in your pockets, a knife and/or multitool, some cordage, a flashlight, microlight, or headlamp, a pocket survival kit, your map, compass, a pocket first aid kit, EDC litter, pistol (if worn on your pants), pistol ammo pouches, maybe a power bar or some hard candies, etc. Possibly some water purification tabs. Basically, you can survive at a very reduced level with your first line. Most people would try and carry at least one weapon on their first line. I have used first line gear ranging from pocket items and a belt with multitool to a war belt with suspenders, a dump pouch, larger knife and pistol, spare ammo, flashlight, etc.

Your second line gear is generally your fighting load consisting of your weapon and LCE or vest, to include your body armor and items carried on your LCE like ammo, a trauma kit, binos, a large knife, a handheld radio in a pouch, water, etc. You might drop your second line while in camp, unfasten it for water ops, or other activities where you were relatively secure. Try to have enough stuff here that you could, along with your first line, make it to your objective without the ruck.

Finally, your third line loadout would consist of your sustainment gear, with your ruck, and its contents. This contains your shelter items, food, additional water, spare batteries, etc. Your third line would likely be dropped for actual combat requiring quick movement.

You need to figure out what you absolutely have to carry to survive, and build your first line around carrying that.

Then what you need to fight effectively, and how to carry it for your second line.

Everything else goes in your ruck as third line gear.

You guys have the concept, but might want to tune it a bit before jocking up and moving out.

TR

TR nails it!

This is (was) the purpose of my question. For you guys to think about where and how you carry the items and weapons most needed to successfully meet the demands of the exercise. Think of it this way: you have to lose your pants, shirt and footwear to become hopelessly underprepared to continue to evade and make it to your designated rendezvous.

A good knife, fire starter, and 10' of para cord with its guts will get you far. A good pistol will make taking what you need that much easier...:D

Thinking about TR's exercise requirements (5-minutes to get out, and 100-miles distance to cover) and the real possibility that me and/or my family may be in a situation where E&Eing from my strongest defensive position is necessary. I would begin to start thinking about caching needed items and survival tools outside my home, either in ground, or lockers with public access (e.g., bus, train, airport, bowling center, etc... coin operated lockers) that I can move to within a half day to first day's time. Obviously you may not want to store weapons in these but everything else not traceable to you is fair game. I would also think placing these kits in multiple directions or over a greater distance since I can't pre game my initial direction to safe passage...just food for thought. :munchin

[Barbarian]

And it beats the hell out of leaves.
CONCUR. One just doesn't understand how much better it is to have TP, until you've gone without.

1st Line:
Map & Compass
Canteen & cup
Mini Survival Kit
DMT Diafold Sharpener
1/4 bar of soap
1/2 a Toothbrush
TP
Folding Knife
Fixed Blade
Extra Pair Socks
Leatherman Wave
Surefire E2D
Petzl Tikka 2 Headlamp
Glock 17 & 1 extra mag
S&W MP15 (AR)

2nd Line/LBV:
4 Pmags
2 Pistol Mags
Trauma Pouch
canteen
SOF-T W Tourniquet

3rd Line/Ruck:
Poncho
Woobie
Issue Goretex Bivy Shell (woodland camo)
Hammock
Torso-length Closed Cell Foam Pad
Small Folding Trowel
Small Aid Kit
Foot Powder & Extra Moleskin
Extra Pair Socks
Change of Clothes
Extra Bic Lighter
80' Paracord
1 Ten-Serving Can of Mountain House Freeze-Dried Food.
1 Film Bottle of Salt
3' Gorilla Tape
Extra Batteries
Camelback Reservoir

[grog18b]

Another scenario to play with.

You are at home and have five minutes notice that you are about to be raided by a vastly superior force. You need to execute your personal E&E plan.

The streets and roads are already covered for vehicle movement, so you will have to move out on foot to a safe area 100 miles away.

You already have a bug out bag prepared with 45 pounds of food, water, shelter, med gear, survival tools, etc. We can discuss the contents of the bag if you like.

You need to hit the woods on foot and may need to harvest game, defend yourself against predators, and engage small hostile teams. Try not to beat this scenario to death.

Your safe is open and you may grab as many weapons, mags, and as much ammo as you wish to carry.

What do you take and why?

TR

With the above scenario, personally, I would stay put and walk the family to the "hide" site, or E+E to a close friend's residence. If you have adequate home security, with a very good hide, you and your family can survive for at least a month without breaking the seal (so to speak...). This force that is raiding you... I suppose they are 3-11 or 7-3 government type shift workers, so them staying at my house looking for me for days or months... I doubt it. I'd last longer as I have all the Star Trek series on DVD, so I could stay in my recliner, in the hide, for a month straight, without need for much more than an occasional back rub and some steaks on the portable grill. Come out now and again to kill off a small cow or deer, and back to the hide. With a secure hide site, you have the advantage of a large, pre-planned and placed weapon, ammo, and supply source. Also, you are not expending energy walking about, risking injury and detection by this force. You determine when you come out, and you place your "hide" or enable it so you can monitor it from your location. Force goes, you sleep in your own bed. Force stays, you sleep in the hide.

Personally, I have a wife, and 9 year old daughter I'd have to E+E with, and there is no way in hell I would be able to support the two of them, with all their electronic and bathroom needs, let alone how much those two eat... I'd end up shooting myself. So, E+E for some of us, is a thing of the past. But, if I did E+E, I guess for weapon, I'd need my 357 with one round.

Perhaps I'd take more, depending on how I felt. The wife and daughter can't hump for shit, let alone carry anything while doing it. I, on the other hand, am a pack mule. Always have been, that's why I have a bad back. 100 miles? We did more than that in Benning in a week.... Hell yes, back in the 80s perhaps, with two canteens an AR and 6 mags and a pair of jungle boots... I could go anywhere, and do anything. Maybe in the 90s, but now? Once my pain patch starts to wear off and the back acts up, I am one mean caveman... but I do have a farm, with plenty of food on it, so I might have an advantage. Fruit and nut trees, water source, land to put a nice hide site in and on...

... If your hide has access to transportation routes, clean air, secure commo, power, food and a water source, you could easily maintain yourself and your family's needs for a month or possibly more. Longer, you might need a "support network" such as friends, family, and other Republicans. ;) I have a retired co-worker with plenty of weapons and ammo, as well as food and another "hide" just a mile from me as the crow flies... so if one hide is compromised, you pack up and move to another. Not that we have thought this out over a few beers or anything... It's good to have close friends. They mean support, so if you live somewhere and need to E+E... just something to keep in mind. GROG

I guess us FOGs look at E+E in an entirely different light. :)

[PSM]

<snip>...lockers with public access (e.g., bus, train, airport, bowling center, etc... coin operated lockers) that I can move to within a half day to first day's time.

Do those even exist nowadays? I know that the airport lockers disappeared about 30 years ago. Even then the rental period was only a few days. Allowing that they do, a catastrophic event like an earthquake or Zombie attack may leave them inaccessible. The same may be true if you pre-positioned stuff in self-storage units. In the end, I think, you are going to be humping what you've got in your closet. ;)

That said, we have two high clearance, 4WD, vehicles, plus a trailer that is also high clearance and follows obediently, that we can use to put many miles between us and the bad guys. Yes, they leave a trail, but so do those who are evading on foot. The question is: How good are the trackers? ;)

ETA: We also carry a recovery kit that includes a puncher-repair plug gun.

Pat

[Old Dog New Trick]

Do those even exist nowadays? I know that the airport lockers disappeared about 30 years ago. Even then the rental period was only a few days. Allowing that they do, a catastrophic event like an earthquake or Zombie attack may leave them inaccessible. The same may be true if you pre-positioned stuff in self-storage units. In the end, I think, you are going to be humping what you've got in your closet. ;)


Pat

I'd say they are area specific, and more than likely, yes, short time use: You'd have to feed the machine. A lot of airports removed them after 9/11/01 but some have reinstalled new ones that are credit card activated (which has its drawbacks) but still lower off the tread mill places like a bowling ally or health club would still have personal lockers. If you are that wanted by the wrong folks...a membership may be the least of your problems.

I like the idea of adding self-storage units, especially if you have someone not associated with your name as the owner, but has you named on the local paperwork for access... A town or two away you could have a bike or quad just sitting there ready to go...

I'm not a "prepper" just thinking outside-the-box if I had to leave my house in a hurry. Where to go with just a BoB and some guns is only the beginning...

[mugwump]

My bugout location is 104-121 miles away by foot, depending upon route. I've biked the route but never walked it. I definitely hope I have the foresight to be driving there--my knees are shot-- but if I miscalculate and have to walk I intend to use a mountain bike rigged Ho Chi Minh-style to carry the bit of stuff I have here at my residence. I have 99% prepositioned but would still want to move 3 carbines, 3 pistols, coupla cases of ammo, food/clothing/tent/sleeping bag/sundries necessary for the trip, innertubes/pump and tools. If the heavy items are slung low under the crrossbar and bungied so they don't swing the load is quite stable and manageable. I can easily get 200 pounds of gear on the bike this way. A one-wheel trekking cart with padded hip belt for pulling the load is another option but the bike is attractive to me because I can dump the gear and boogie if I have to.

I takes me a minimum of 2-3 hours to get rigged to move this way. Four-six hours is better for fine-tuning the balance. If I had only 5 mins I would have a BOB, a pistol, boots-where-are-my-effing-boots!? and maybe season-appropriate clothing.

If there is more than a couple of inches of snow then the plan is out the window. It would have to be a pretty significant event to drive me out of my primary residence on foot in winter. If I have to, i have snowshoes and have done winter camping but I'd be moving without weapons and ammo in exchange for food and fuel. Well, maybe an H&R .22 wheelgun to try to pot a bunny and for show but I'd probably rather have it's weight in gorp at some point of the trip.

[mdpatterson]

Thank you TR for posting threads like this. Sharing your knowledge and making us think is much appreciated. This thread has made me rethink many things. I am in no short supply of weapons or ammo, but live in a very populated area (Phoenix). Based on this fact alone, I think my best chances for survival would be a team effort. I know there are many members (QP's and guests) living in close proximity to me, and would enjoy the opportunity to network a bit with any like minded individuals. While I don't have the knowledge or skill of any QP here, I do have other skills that could be useful in a worst case scenario.

Mike

[The Reaper]

I guess this post has drifted a bit from its intended purpose of identifying what guns you would hit the trail with and how much you can actually carry, but as long as it seems to be beneficial, let's keep it going. Staying home was not an option and would tend to defeat the purpose of the thread.

If you don't like the scenario or the concept, no problem, start another one that you do like.

For those who have not used a dump pouch on your belt, I highly recommend it for foraging, dumping loose ammo, and dropping empty mags into.

I know that at my age, I do not move as quickly as I used to, never mind my family. Since I honestly am not sure they could all walk 100 miles in any reasonable time, I went with a solo scenario. The thoughts of having a motorcycle, an ATV, or a car to travel would be great, unless they were dead from an EMP or solar anomaly. I tend to agree that a bike, particularly as a cargo vehicle, would be outstanding except that they are pretty non-tactical and trail or road limited. If I were on that line of thought, a small folding trailer (either to be pulled or pulled behind the bike) would be a tremendous asset, again, pretty much limited to trail or road use. A cache (or multiple caches) en route at necessary intervals is another excellent idea. If you don't need them, you could leave them for later, or swap unnecessary items you are carrying for ones that you needed most at that time.

I don't think that airport or mass transit lockers are viable, post-9/11, I strongly suspect that they would be monitored and the rental periods would be short.

24/7 access storage units (or unsecured ones) would be great, especially if you don't mind having it in your name. I strongly suspect that the security on those would lapse pretty quickly, and if you have a set of bolt cutters with you, you are in.

No guns would be another way to go, but a pistol, at least a .22LR would IHMO, be much better.

When planning, you have to look for possibilities and contingencies. For those not familiar with the MDMP, I highly recommend it as a method of analyzing and developing multiple viable courses of action.

While you could assume "bugging in", that would not fit this scenario, and would probably be worthy of an entirely different plan.

Select from any of the below COAs that are viable for you, and game them out to see if they are viable.



You can plan for evac to a safe location in your vehicle (to include boats) in advance of a disaster.

You could assume a scenario with evac to a safe location in your vehicle or boat during a disaster.

You can also assume evac to a safe location on backup motor vehicles or, if you have them, horses before or during a disaster.

You need to plan for evac on bike to a safe location before or during a disaster.

Finally, you need to plan for evac on foot to a safe location before or during a disaster.


I would consider caches or secure stopping points under each of the above plans. Even a vehicle needs fuel, for example, and your estimated consumption rate could be shot to hell with rerouting, traffic, etc.

Also consider that any of the above could turn into a foot movement if issues occur.

What if the major bridges are out, for example? From Fayetteville north, AFAIK, there are only two crossing points for the Cape Fear River from Sanford to Lillington. That is more than 30 miles. Can you swim it, with your gear and family?

Some plans will evolve from a vehicle, to a bike, to on foot, for example, or from a boat to an overland movement.

If you lose your vehicle and have to go afoot, be aware that you are probably going to have to dump or hide a lot of what you had and will then have to carry a reduced load on your backs for the rest of the journey.

You should also have a plan for what to do if you arrive at your destination and it is no longer viable, but again, that is another plan. That would have to include a contingency for discovering the destination is compromised before you leave, during your evac, or after your arrival.

Same for planning for the family movement. Given warnings, and sufficient lead time (for example a hurricane approaching), you could send them ahead or evacuate with them ahead of the disaster. However, you would have to have a contingency for unexpected disasters, just in case a tornado or solar storm occurred.

Great to have tire repair kits, jacks, hoses, etc., but have you ever used one, particularly only with the items you are carrying? Easy to do in the driveway or garage with floor jacks, jack stands, full range of wrenches, an air compressor, etc. Get out of your home and try to do that with the abbreviated tools you will be carrying. I am shocked at the number or people who have never even taken their jacks out of the car and assembled them, much less tried to lift the car with them.

Hope this helps.

TR

[NurseTim]

Silenced ruger mark III, water filter, dromedary 100 Oz., I EDC gorilla duct tape, mini bic, and victorinox cadet held together with cut inner tube from a bicycle. I'd grab a 550 round box for .22 and scedaddle.

Long gun will be a battlefield pick up, I suck at long range anyway. My aim is to harass whomever is tracking me, slow them down. Hit one, I hope four will attend to him/her. If not, hit as many as I can to slow the party down. Tape up my heels, move at night, debrie hut during day. On yeah, blackjack kukri with grunt should cover cutting needs. I also EDC trauma shears.

[grog18b]

My apologies my Brother. I read your scenario, and tried to fit it to my current life, as opposed to just sticking to the original premise. My bad. I do like the idea of a separate thread to discuss the possibilities I discussed earlier...

That said, and I had to bug out fast, the only weapons I would choose from my safe are my 22/ 22magnum pistol, and my 22 Remington Matchmaster rifle.

My reasoning is as follows... With those simple weapons you can defend yourself, kill anything you want to eat, and secure anything else you might need. They are reliable, not high maintenance, you can carry more than enough ammunition, as well as very quiet ammunition to remain undetected in your movement. They are easy to carry, and the Matchmaster could be broken down to fit inside the longer go bags. Also, as far as accuracy goes, I have never fired a 22 rifle like the Matchmaster I have. The scope is old, and has brass rings. It is post and cross hair, and the top of the post has a tiny notch. In that notch is where the bullet goes. All the time, every time. It also loves 22 shorts, although I have to hand feed those. The pistol I have is an old 22 revolver with an extra 22 magnum cylinder.

I would also grab the little black bag at the bottom of my safe. No need to go there in public. :)

GROG

[frostfire]

Great thread! Thanks TR. I learned and will continue to learn a lot.

With the 45 lbs starting point, I already have half trauma kit there, H2O, and bare necessisties.

So on the run lead launchers:
AK74 w/ 1-4x scope, 100 rds in 3 mags and one 10rds bundle in pack. Two mags on me. 55gr HP zeroed for center of mass hold from 50m to 200m. I have pinged torse size reliably at 400m. I can take the stock off and completely conceal it on me, shooting it with taut-sling method. I've tested it dry w/ no lubrication, dirty with WD40, wet after submerged. Zero malfunctions.

G17 with 60 rds. 2 mags on me. and 10 rds bundle in pack.
115 silver tip HP zeroed for center of mass hold from 3 yards to 110 yards. 9mm pellet shot for small game and "deterrent"

.177 pellet gun for small game with 100 pellets for small game and distractor(very light)

Maxpedition roly-poly dump pouch, Bear Mace, Benchmade Nimravus, Leatherman MUT, belt/neck knife, zip-ties, lock pick set

Terrain is urban, so dressed like a ragged homeless man w/ stinkum on, brownish stain on back of pants.

[Chaplain Scott]

OK: attached is a picture from my bedroom window. The terrain is open with little cover/concealment. Right behind our house is a creek that I would probably head to if I only had the allotted 5 min. heads-up. I'd grab my AR and a 5 or 6 Mags already loaded. (reasoning--reasonable balance with ammo weight/volume--best to NOT get in a firefight, but if can't avoid it, I want enough firepower to be able to hold my own or be able to break contact as needed) A few 1911 mags, primarily because the 1911 is already on my belt, so no time to change it out for my Sig.

Now, if the scenario is NOT solo:

I'd still grab the AR, and 1911, but would add the following:

My wife would get the AR-15-22 with 5 or 6 loaded .22 LR mags, and a 1911 with a couple of mags;

my son-in-law (who is currently in Active Reserve unit, and he and our daughter live on the ranch with us in our attached but separate mother-in-law place) would get one of my 1911's with mags and the .300 Weatherby w/ Leopold 4.5x14 scope--it would provide us some longer range fire if needed-he's also a better shot and in better shape than I am in to hump the rifle.

My daughter would get another AR with accompanying Mags and 1911 with a few mags; 10 yr old grandson would get my classic Remington Nylon 66 with a brick or two of .22LR and my 6 yr old granddaughter would get a a brick of .22LR and her grandmother's Ruger single-Six in 22LR.

IF we had time, we'd each grab a horse, bareback if need be, but my butt cringe's at that thought......

[The Reaper]

No worries, grog.

When I went through SF survival training, we were dumped in the woods for five days with our uniform and LBE, a chicken or a rabbit, a large knife and a pocket knife, a handful of 550 cord, and a pack of paper matches in a ziploc. They also gave us a list of projects to accomplish, like building traps, snares, fish traps, fish hooks, a shelter, a reflecting wall for the fire, etc.

I used a Kabar as the large knife for shelter construction, splitting firewood, and all of the other camp chores that required a large blade. The rest of the time, I was using a Swiss Army Knife, because the multi-tool had not been invented yet.

I used that SAK for all of the small whittling tasks, skinning and gutting the rabbit, cleaning fish, etc.

While a big blade is handy for some tasks (and if I could only have one, it would be a large knife), there are many tasks that a small knife is much better suited for.

Not to mention the pliers, scissors, screwdrivers, can and bottle openers, saws, file, wirecutters, etc.

If you put a Leatherman or a SAK on your belt, perhaps with a piece of ferrocerium rod and a Micro-light on the lanyard, I think you might not even notice that you were carrying it until you needed it. The multi-tool is a no-brainer for this scenario.

I think most of you have viable plans. I would challenge you to take a weekend off this year and go camping for a couple of days and nights with your BoB. There is no better way to identify the deficiencies in your kit than to try and live with it.

FF, a good pellet rifle weighs as much as a real rifle. A .22LR pistol would give you a lot more range and power, and would weigh less as well. Suppressed, it would be almost as quiet as the pellet rifle. Just something to think about. Don't forget a water carrier of some sort and a water purification technique. Good costume, but I think you would still stand out.

Chaplain, I think you have to snag a horse or a vehicle if they are on site in five minutes. You could not sprint to the few trees in the picture in the time allotted, so if the creekbed is not viable, and a concealed route out of the area to another concealed area, you have to be mounted.

To respond to your question, BO, I think people deep in a metropolitan area and on foot are pretty much screwed, unless they can get out ahead of time or can gather a gang superior to the existing gangs that are going to rule the streets. I like your choice for a stealth weapon, but I would definitely opt for a compact semi-auto rifle as well. Maybe a short, folding stock AK or shorty M-4, assuming the city leadership would permit you to own such a thing. Under the big coat of course.

This brings up another point. There are times you want to blend in and look like everyone else, and there are times you want to look like you are well-equipped to defend yourself and ready to do so. It is up to you to develop the SA to know when is the right time for each. If the street urchins can shoot straight, and you have to go through miles of them to reach a safe zone, unless you have a group of warriors, I think the odds are not in your favor.

There are a couple of excellent forums that describe life in major cities during recent economic or political break-downs, and those who survived to write about it mostly stayed in their homes, venturing out only to forage. You have to hope that you do not look like you have sufficient wealth (not just money, food, ammo, fuel) to make it worth their time and lives to get what you have. If I thought I would lose more of my people than your resources I could recover would replace, I would not attack unless I was desperate.

This is also a good time to point out that letting people know you have resources is a good way to lose them. Better to appear poor and run down when TSHTF. Anyone outside your group you feed or give items to is a potential leak and will be back for more, either begging, or with someone else who wants to take what you have.

One of the reasons I offered a scenario that required moving was that there is no weight or movement penalty associated with staying home. You could assume a Ma Deuce on the roof with 10,000 rounds and a moat filled with alligators in that situation, but you can't really take that with you. I don't think a .22 by itself is a good course of action, but as long as it made you think about what you really need to survive, it was worth it.

TR

[therunningwolf]

TR,

Question, just out of curiosity really. Outside of firearms or your daily carry items, what six items in your pack would you consider absolutely necessary in order to complete this scenario?

I plan out what I carry into the woods around six items with everything else ( season/ situation dependent) being comfort items. I'm just curious what other more experienced individuals would choose to see how it differs from my own choices.

[The Reaper]

TR,

Question, just out of curiosity really. Outside of firearms or your daily carry items, what six items in your pack would you consider absolutely necessary in order to complete this scenario?

I plan out what I carry into the woods around six items with everything else ( season/ situation dependent) being comfort items. I'm just curious what other more experienced individuals would choose to see how it differs from my own choices.

I EDC a lot more gear than usual, so this list is based on what I think most people would need.



Firemaker
Water purification and storage
Knife
Cordage
First aid kit
Shelter


I think the first four are absolute requirements, the last two could be debated.

TR

[therunningwolf]

That's similar to my thoughts.

1. Firesteel
2. Knife
3. Cordage
4. Poncho
5. Klean Kanteen
6. TP

The first three are always on me with the last three in a pack I keep close. I've found these to be the hardest things to improvise. As for the TP, it's not a life or death thing but as I told a buddy once, spend a week or two out in the sticks and wiping your butt with leaves gets real old real quick. (Especially if you can't identify poison ivy, had a guy I was at Shelby with do that. It was funny at first, till it spread. At least he won't ever forget what poison ivy looks like.)

Thank you for the reply Sir.

[mdpatterson]

But I just didn't articulate what I meant by saying my best chances for survival may be a team effort living where I do. You nailed what I was trying to say in a few posts back with, "BO, I think people deep in a metropolitan area and on foot are pretty much screwed, unless they can get out ahead of time or can gather a gang superior to the existing gangs that are going to rule the streets."

My point was not to bug in, but rather get a group of trusted and trained individuals together and then get out of town together. That's why I would love to network with others in my area in a similar situation.

Now to try and correct my bad, I'll hit up my choice of weapons (Just weapons for the moment.....no gear). Also these choices are assuming I don't have a group and am on my own.

1) Post sample MP5 PDW with Gemtech Vortex quick detach suppressor. 6 preloaded mags all with 147 (This is always in a smaller go bag with a few other essentials). This gives me the option to easily conceal, attack with semi or 3 round burst if the need to attack comes up, and to go loud and FA if in a defending position......I'm guessing this would make most people think twice about advancing.

2) S&W 360PD. This is always with me to start with, and the weight of it loaded isn't even enough to notice in a front pocket. I would take maybe an extra 15 .357 rounds in a cargo pocket.

3) One of my suppressed .22lr pistols and plenty of ammo along with my Browing Buckmark rifle with the same detachable suppresseor. The suppressed pistol would be concealed, but in a position to be easily drawn. The Buckmark has a great optic on it and by far makes the least noise of anything I have ever fired but would be in outer gear until I reached my destination (It's compact and doesn't weigh much).

4) Another post sample LWRC with a SPR upper. ACOG with RMR optic, Surefire Suppressor, and 6 preloaded pmags. Although I would probably never need to use this in FA, it's an option I have so why not take it just in case. I know I have not gotten in to gear yet, but this would be taken down and placed in part of my outer gear until I reached my destination.

That's about all I would take trying to escape a city alone. I hate leaving out a good shotgun, a longer range rifle and my favorite .45's but I would try and get out by blending in rather than showing my cards. If I were to be confronted in this scenario, it would be a bad day for those looking at me as a victim because that MP5 hangs in a sling that allows me to draw it just as fast as any handgun.

I know this may sound like overkill on weapons, but I got them all out and even with the added gear that I would be humping, the total weight of these weapons would be no problem.

Mike

[Toaster]

I took the lil lady out hiking and have discovered that she doesn't do well with a 20lb pack. Something about her yankee upbringing and this southern heat...:(

Weapons:

AR-15: 9lbs, Surefire, iron sights, sling, angled foregrip

S&W 29

XD .45

S&W J-frame

Ruger 10/22 takedown has own backpack lil lady will carry

Ammo:

5.56/.223, 7 loaded mags, 480 rounds in military style bandoleers on stripper clips.

.45 - 2 boxes of 230gr HP and two loaded magazines one in pistol

.44 a box of hard to find sought after ammo 20rds

.38 1 speed clip 1 speed loader 1 box of 20 hollowpoints

.22LR 1 brick 325 rds 2 30rd mags, 3 10 rd mags

Plan

Grab the BOB, throw ammo in, throw in .44. Move out quickly to nearby woodline, once fairly certain I won't be engaged breakdown AR and stick it into bag. All the while heading over to the closest local pipehitters I know. While I could try to convert the apartment complex I live in into a firebase with some locals....Not the best idea. I would be concerned with getting out of the area ASAP. I think it'd take three minutes to get out the door....

I have the extra ammo and "useless" pistol for trading value and to help local pipehitters. The missus would be carrying a relatively empty backpack, if I had her carrying anything. She can't move very well under weight.

Should the raiding party be local thugs I would use cell phone as primary means for commo...Should it be random gov't agency...well...:eek:

Should rendevous with pipehitters fail...I can see much Providencial help, my rugged good looks, and people skills to help my wife and I to get to the target point.

All in all, I dislike the scenario and pray it never happens.