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The Reaper
01-11-2013, 18:43
Looks like the 160th is going coed.

Without lowering the standards, of course.:rolleyes:

Green Platoon will never be the same.

TR

Army OKs women as spec ops aviators

By Joe Gould - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Jan 11, 2013 12:14:48 EST

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2013/01/army-oks-women-specops-aviators-011113w/

Women have been cleared for Army special operations.

The Army is recruiting women to become pilots and crew chiefs for the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment for the first time as part of its ongoing effort to expand roles for women in the service.

The move by the 160th is the result of an appeal by Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno to expand combat roles for women.

“We are looking for women to serve in the cockpit, we’ll start with a pilot [trial] program, and assuming there’s no significant issues, we’ll integrate women,” said Brig. Gen. Clayton Hutmacher, the commander of Army Special Operations Aviation Command. “We plan on going out and actively recruiting women. We’re fully supportive of this initiative.”

Women would serve as pilots of 160th aircraft and non-rated women would serve as crew chiefs in the backs of those aircraft, said Col. John Evans, the regimental commander.

Conventional aviation units are typically employed downrange frequently over longer periods, while special operations aviation units are often deployed heavily over shorter periods and in more austere conditions, with less support. Much of what the 160th does are dangerous and highly classified missions in support of special operations forces.

Women already serve as aviators and on air crews within conventional units in the aviation branch. Since the early 1990s, women have served in cavalry and attack missions that were closed to them up until that point, Evans said. Though Evans would not discuss specifics, he said women are already “doing lots of operational things in SOF.”

“This will certainly be one of the first forays for Army Special Operations Command, putting them in this type of role,” Evans said.

Hutmacher emphasized that there will be one standard for both men and women as the assessment and selection process becomes gender-agnostic.

Evans said he has informed his troops.

“As we bring these very talented female candidates into the 160th, they will understand up front that there is but one standard, and they’re going to have to meet that to be a part of the organization,” Evans said. “As I’ve talked to senior female officers in the Army, they say they would expect no less. They don’t want special consideration.”


Candidates must complete an application packet, kicking off a process that takes several months. The expectation is that by summer the 160th will assess its first female candidates.

Both Evans and Hutmacher said women will be recruited first in limited numbers and that they expect them to be fully integrated into the formation after the pilot program.

Odierno had issued broad guidance for leaders to examine which roles could be opened to women, and the question of female special operations aviators filtered down from Army Special Operations Command to Army Special Operations Aviation Command and the 160th itself.

“We’ve had them in Apaches and OH-58Ds for twenty years now. What is it about the 160th mission set you believe is unsuitable for them, and our answer is ‘Well, there’s nothing,’ “ Evans said.

Hutmacher described Army senior leaders as “very supportive” of the move. He said it was inevitable and that he was “very excited” by it.

The move is expected to aid pilot shortages, increasing the pool of available candidates, Hutmacher said.

Both Hutmacher and Evans said they have not heard any signs of displeasure from the ranks in reaction. Hutmacher said he assembled warrant officers and commanders to prepare them for the move.

“I haven’t gotten any push-back,” Hutmacher said. “If you think about it, we have already integrated gays into the military, and that, I don’t see it as a problem. We represent the values of the American people.”

“Militaries go through evolutions,” Evans said. “We have homosexuals serving in the military and there was a lot of consternation about that, it’s come to pass, and lo and behold we’ve seen little impact.”

MR2
01-11-2013, 19:37
So approximately how many women have gone through the SERE course?

Dozer523
01-11-2013, 20:34
So approximately how many women have gone through the SERE course? Counting the time I was sobbing like a little girl?

MR2
01-11-2013, 20:37
Counting the time I was sobbing like a little girl?

LOL - you and me both my brother.

PSM
01-11-2013, 20:48
So approximately how many women have gone through the SERE course?

Hmmm. I thought all combat aircrew had to. There are women F-16 and A-10 drivers.

Pat

SF18C
01-11-2013, 20:54
Hmmm. I thought all combat aircrew had to. There are women F-16 and A-10 drivers.

Pat

I am not 100% sure but I think AF SERE and Army SERE are a tad different.

ZonieDiver
01-11-2013, 21:11
Counting the time I was sobbing like a little girl?

Replies like this one are precisely WHY you have not been banned here, my Brother! :p

PSM
01-11-2013, 21:17
I am not 100% sure but I think AF SERE and Army SERE are a tad different.

Ah! I was under the impression that some of the AF C-130s were part of the 160th. I see that they are not. Thanks.

Pat

koz
01-11-2013, 23:25
I had a female in my SERE class. She was a Civil Affairs Veterinarian I think. Oh and since she was a Major, she was the class leader.... She had a hard time but made it thru.

Pete
01-12-2013, 05:23
Many females have gone through the Army SERE course.

And at least since the late 80's.

Every other class or three would have at least one. While not common it was not unusual.

Before the reorganization our company handled the in/out processing for SERE so I got to see the class on the first and last day.

Surgicalcric
01-12-2013, 09:47
Female aviators attend SERE-C at Ft Rucker along with their male counterparts. The males dont attend SERE again when they are assigned to the 160th so the different standard for SERE doesnt really apply here.

Dusty
01-12-2013, 10:14
I may be anachronistic about most things, but females in traditionally male jobs don't bother me as long as they're able to hack the same standard as the males.

Richard
01-12-2013, 10:16
I hope they can read map coordinates and terrain features better than the S**thook crew from the 11th AVN we dealt with on REFORGER once.

It was an all female crew - 2 female pilots and 2 female crew chiefs. We were playing the role of Spetznaz and had a blindfolded and hog-tied two star from V (US) Corps which we'd kidnapped from a forward TOC near Bad Hersfeld, and were being extracted at daylight to bring him back to Camp Worden and the "People's Pond" for questioning. V Corps security elements were hot on our tails and we could see the s**thook flying circles looking for us across the moutain range over in the wrong valley. We were enforcing radio silence and - finally - the CH47 gave up and came flying near enough to us on their way back to their airfield that we nearly hit 'em in the nose with a couple of star clusters to gain their attention before they saw our panels and came for us. :rolleyes:

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

The Reaper
01-12-2013, 11:08
"...as long as they're able to hack the same standard as the males....

Therein lies the rub.

Why do we have two sets of PT test standards again?

TR

Dusty
01-12-2013, 11:12
Therein lies the rub.

Why do we have two sets of PT test standards again?

TR

Exactly my point, 'mano.

MR2
01-12-2013, 11:34
Thanks on the females at SERE answers. I didn't know there were more than one Army SERE courses (locations).

In the "Nam" days I recall the AF had a course up in Bangor and the Navy had one somewhere. What and where are the current SERE-type courses being held in today's military and what military courses have SERE built into the course?

I do know that SERE-C is part of the Q for both Off/EM now.

Jgood
01-12-2013, 11:58
Don't worry they will fix that and just lower the standard to make sure everybody can pass.

Therein lies the rub.

Why do we have two sets of PT test standards again?

TR

love the we are equal, but wait its not fair I cant do as many push up or sit ups or run as fast.

Should be one standard and a high one at that, want to cut the military make one pt standard and enforce it

ChuckG
01-12-2013, 13:33
I hope they can read map coordinates and terrain features better than the S**thook crew from the 11th AVN we dealt with on REFORGER once.

It was an all female crew - 2 female pilots and 2 female crew chiefs. We were playing the role of Spetznaz and had a blindfolded and hog-tied two star from V (US) Corps which we'd kidnapped from a forward TOC near Bad Hersfeld, and were being extracted at daylight to bring him back to Camp Worden and the "People's Pond" for questioning. V Corps security elements were hot on our tails and we could see the s**thook flying circles looking for us across the moutain range over in the wrong valley. We were enforcing radio silence and - finally - the CH47 gave up and came flying near enough to us on their way back to their airfield that we nearly hit 'em in the nose with a couple of star clusters to gain their attention before they saw our panels and came for us. :rolleyes:

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

It must have just been aviators. On more than one occasion in the 70's, in Germany, we were in Huey's and the pilots would descend to read the road signs to figure out where they were. They were male pilots and would not listen to us in the back.

Dozer523
01-12-2013, 16:31
Replies like this one are precisely WHY you have not been banned here, my Brother! :p Huh?
You talkin to me? (doing the Queen LaTisha hand thingie)
Search "Bearded One" and read how many people he still keeps awake at night.

Psssst, . . . The Bearded One . . . is coming . . . for YOU! (Sleep well!)

MR2: the Air Force runs their SERE from Fairchild AFB near Spokane WA. Most of the training exercise happens to the north near the town of Kusick (or maybe it starts with a C). Its great .... If you like steep hills and lots of snow. Pretty awesome winter survival training.

VVVV
01-12-2013, 16:56
Don't worry they will fix that and just lower the standard to make sure everybody can pass.



love the we are equal, but wait its not fair I cant do as many push up or sit ups or run as fast.

Should be one standard and a high one at that, want to cut the military make one pt standard and enforce it

What do those have to do the ability to drive a helo?

Dusty
01-12-2013, 17:56
What do those have to do the ability to drive a helo?

What?

Surgicalcric
01-12-2013, 21:34
What do those have to do the ability to drive a helo?

Nothing.

But because the 160th's PT standards are higher for guys in that Regiment than they are in the regular Army and since women want to be viewed as equals they may want to first meet "the standard" instead of there being a different one for them.

The Reaper
01-12-2013, 21:49
What do those have to do the ability to drive a helo?

Are you familiar with the current 160th SOAR selection and training process?

Does the Army PT standard apply to everyone? Should support personnel maintain themselves in the same condition as ground combatants?

TR

MtnGoat
01-14-2013, 08:20
Don't worry they will fix that and just lower the standard to make sure everybody can pass.



love the we are equal, but wait its not fair I cant do as many push up or sit ups or run as fast.

Should be one standard and a high one at that, want to cut the military make one pt standard and enforce it

I think 160th already did do that. Maybe not "Their" APFT standards. But everything else within "Their" Selection standards. They maybe the best Helo drivers in teh world, but their standards have lowered!!

69harley
01-14-2013, 13:04
Aside from the standard for the APFT, are there other standards within the 160th that must be lowered to accomadate females?

As for the female crew getting lost, I have been on birds crew'd by men that have gotten lost, plenty of times.

Would like to think the processes the 160th uses to select, train and asign pilots would prevent a weak pilot out of their operation pool, but heck, even with the current all-male pool of pilots there have been some less than stellar pilots in the 160th. We have all experienced it.

I don't get all the noise being made over females flying in the 160th and yes I am knowledgable about the green platoon and have flown many times on 160th and conventional birds.

Survival7201
01-14-2013, 14:36
I haven't had much contact with the USAF/SERE school since getting out in 1984. I started getting back with some guys I trained with. This is a look at Class 13-01. As in Army there are different levels of SERE. This is SST we called it ITB in 71 when I went through. I also went through the Army School at Ft Bragg. Not the same. Lots of stories, but USAF Survival Instructor Training was not the hardest school I attended. Good times though.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151322438779146&set=vb.146360652084805&type=2&theater

With all respect and good wishes.

Ron

Dusty
01-14-2013, 15:19
It's simple. Set a standard. The aspirant either meets or fails, regardless of gender, race or-now-sexual persuasion.

SF18C
01-14-2013, 18:05
I haven't had much contact with the USAF/SERE school since getting out in 1984. I started getting back with some guys I trained with. This is a look at Class 13-01. As in Army there are different levels of SERE. This is SST we called it ITB in 71 when I went through. I also went through the Army School at Ft Bragg. Not the same. Lots of stories, but USAF Survival Instructor Training was not the hardest school I attended. Good times though.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151322438779146&set=vb.146360652084805&type=2&theater

With all respect and good wishes.

Ron

Are the AF-SERE school horror stories of staying in a 2 star hotel with out room service or cable true? :p

Survival7201
01-14-2013, 20:05
Yes. Yes they are... I have stayed in some very horrible motels... I survived several in North Carolina... :rolleyes:

Ron

Razor
01-14-2013, 21:09
I don't get all the noise being made over females flying in the 160th and yes I am knowledgable about the green platoon and have flown many times on 160th and conventional birds.

It's not the day-to-day flying that's an issue:

At about 4:20, one of the Black Hawk helicopters, callsign Super 6-1 piloted by CW3 Cliff "Elvis" Wolcott and CW3 Donovan Briley, was shot down by an RPG. Both pilots were killed in the resulting crash and two of the crew chiefs were severely wounded. SSG Daniel Busch and SGT Jim Smith, both Delta snipers, survived the crash and began defending the site.

An MH-6, callsign Star 4-1 and piloted by CW3 Karl Maier and CW5 Keith Jones, landed nearby and Jones left the helicopter and carried Busch to the safety of the Helo (emphasis mine) while Maier provided cover fire from the Little Bird's cockpit, repeatedly and heroically denying order to lift off while his co-pilot was not in the Bird.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)