M9 Issues

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

This might start a controversy but I need to ask. (My wife claims I enjoy controversy)

Is or has anyone else in the SF community had issues with their M9’s?

I know most of you out there are familiar with the magazine problems but this has to do with the locking blocks breaking.

I have seen problems with the locking blocks for years. At one time it was just a mild irritation. I thought that because my ODA was a CQB Team and that we shot so much more pistol that we just tore the guns up faster than the other Teams. Now that I have had the misfortune of being moved to a staff position I have realized it is a much larger problem. In fairness, Teams across the board shoot much more due to GWOT, SFAUC, attendance of civilian shooting schools like Mid-South Institute, and an increased emphasis on missions where the M9 is the primary or only weapon carried or at least the weapon most accessible. Most of the time when a block broke the 18B would just swap out the block and the guy will get back to training. That is how we usually operated. We just wanted to get back to training. Lately it has become such a frequent and wide spread occurrence that it can no longer be ignored or handled as a work around. The problem is that there is really no long-term documented problem at levels that can affect this problem. At least that is the story we are being told.

What am I talking about as far as round count? Probably any where between 300 to 1,000 rounds fired per day depending on the training event. Depending on the training event it could be a sustained 5 to 10 days of that round count. This event might be done several times a year. So on the low side we are talking about 10,000 rounds a year through a gun and on the high side 50,000 a year. I have heard that the factory acknowledged life span of the M9 is 10,000 round. If this were true, you would think that someone would realize we could use a more durable gun.

I am interested if any of you have observed this same problem or has the desert heat finally baked my brain.

Your comments are encouraged.

Thanks!

SERPENT5XX

[Roguish Lawyer]

:munchin

[mffjm8509]

I've encounted the same problem with locking blocks on the M9.

When we incorperated marksmanship training into Phase II of the Qcourse we drew a couple of hundred M9s from the SWC Armsroom. This is where I saw the majority of the problem. I doubt they keep round counts on the pistols, at least we never turned a round count into them.

Its happened twice on my team in the past year as well. We keep a couple of extras in the repair kit now, and I'm trying to get them all replaced w/new barrels prior to deployment.

There are a couple of locking blocks out there, so be careful what you order. About 10 years ago Beretta developed a new block with a taperd flangethat is supposed to last longer. The ones in our kits are still the early models.

mp

[Tuukka]

Yes, the Berettas over here have exhibited the same problem, thats a weak link in the design.

[shadowflyer]

We have seen the same thing with the M9's here at 20th GRP as well. The armorers just change em out and bam ready to go again for another 5k rounds or so.

[mffjm8509]

Thats a good point, and why we keep a few in the tool box. You can easily swap the parts and continue shooting and turn in a 2406 for maintenance records later. The locking block is definately the weakest link, and the pistol should outlast this part signifigantly.

mp

We have seen the same thing with the M9's here at 20th GRP as well. The armorers just change em out and bam ready to go again for another 5k rounds or so.

[Sinister]

I have had the locking lug break with a live round in the chamber. I could not clear the weapon because of the way the lug broke (you could not retract the slide).

In Okinawa I would have my troops turn in their M9s by ODA when we reached 5,500 rounds. My PBO would then issue new pistols and we would return the used guns directly to the National Inventory Control Point (NICP), the first place in the Army chain where they receive materiel from the civilian manufacturer.

I was going to take a .45 to Iraq, but the Chief of Staff of the unit I was augmenting warned me he only had 9mm ammo. I drew an M9 and deployed. The very first round out of the brand new magazine to test-fire in Saudi was a failure to feed.

[Psywar1-0]

Everyone cross their fingers and hope the moon and planets are in alignment come 1 January and I will be doing my best to get you a replacement for the M9. USSOCOM just dropped a tasking in Crane's lap to come up with a new pistol to issue to all SOF. It will punch a bigger hole than the M9 and weigh less than the SEAL's Boat Anchor Offensive Pistol. Im kinda sold on the MARSOC Det 1 pistol AKA the Kimber Warrior, but heaven forbid we just wholesale adopt something that the Marines did the R&D on ;) The Army would never do that, never..............

[shadowflyer]

Everyone cross their fingers and hope the moon and planets are in alignment come 1 January and I will be doing my best to get you a replacement for the M9. USSOCOM just dropped a tasking in Crane's lap to come up with a new pistol to issue to all SOF. It will punch a bigger hole than the M9 and weigh less than the SEAL's Boat Anchor Offensive Pistol. Im kinda sold on the MARSOC Det 1 pistol AKA the Kimber Warrior, but heaven forbid we just wholesale adopt something that the Marines did the R&D on ;) The Army would never do that, never..............


Please do ....I will welcome a new pistol. I know that most everyone will.....;)


JJ

[DanUCSB]

I will be doing my best to get you a replacement for the M9. USSOCOM just dropped a tasking in Crane's lap to come up with a new pistol to issue to all SOF.

I don't know about a new pistol, but I know of an old one that seems to be holding up just fine. :lifter

[Tuukka]

Psywar1-0, you are referring to the USP Compact Tactical with the shortened KAC can?

From what ive heard there´s also a rather good modified 6004 for it from Safariland.

[Psywar1-0]

Since the tasking to find a new pistol is less than a month old, I doubt that there has been a selection made.

[brownapple]

As far as I can tell, the M1911 designed by John Browning is holding up just fine.

The military should have never let the Air Force and Navy push the M9 on all the services. Back when the testing process was going on, the other two options that were seriously considered (as I remember it... we are talking over 20 years ago) were a SIG (cost more than the Beretta) and a Colt rebuild of the existing frames in the inventory (new slides, barrels, mags, hammers, etc. - 9mm). The Colt rebuild was the choice of the Army and Marines if I remember, the SEALs wanted the SIG (and it was adopted as an alternative weapon) but the Air Force (with most of the Navy going along) pushed the Beretta because they claimed the 1911 design had too big a frame for female hands, didn't hold enough rounds, and required too much training.

[The Reaper]

The SIG was actually cheaper in the first round of bidding.

Rumor was that SIG got the M-11 contract to get them to drop their lawsuit over the M-9 bidding process.

The services had to go to 9mm due to congressional action stopping the procurement of .45ACP ammo.

Now we may be headed back. Go figure.

TR

[ktek01]

No first hand experience with the M9, but I did notice that while all the team members on our local ODA had a pistol on their hip, none of them were M9s.

[The Reaper]

Let me add that when Mott Lake was still teaching CQB at Bragg, they kept a couple of large corrugated boxes strapped to 3'x3' shipping pallets and returned them after they filled up with broken slides in one box, and bad barrels/sheared lugs in the other.

They made a LOT of shipments of the broken parts.

I tried to give two bad barrels with sheared locking lugs and a broken slide to the Beretta rep when he came to the local gun store, he looked at me like I was handing him a water moccasin and refused to even touch them.

TR

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

Hopefully the M9 will go away in SOF.

It may be a great gun for a person that carries it but only shoots 100 rounds a year and feels they actually NEED a de-cock and a safe together (I hate that feature) on a combat gun. Personally I have seen several guys transition to their secondary only to find the de-cock safe has done its thing and is on de-cock/safe when you do not want it to be. Fortunately only in training so far, but I love the look on their face when the gun will not go bang. :D Of course a burst of expletives will usually issue forth from their mouth after they figure out what has happened. Speaking of that I noticed the 2004 SFAUC manual actually shows the M9 being holstered and drawn in the De-cock safe mode!? This is a change from years past.
Are they teaching this at Bragg now?
Reaper?
What is the deal?

I would love to have a 1911 style gun. I grew up with the 1911 in SF and shoot several of my own when I can. The HK-USP’s are OK but a 1911 would be better.

About locking blocks.
According to a guy in the know, the current M9 locking block is version # 4 and costs Uncle Sugar $84.00!!! They all break. I have not seen a difference in the "new" ones as far as durability.


SERPENT5XX

[SERPENT5XX]

Gentlemen,

Here is a pic of a broken M9 locking block.

All the ones I have seen break, all fail on the same side. Sometimes there is a tell-tale “peening” on the flange before it breaks and sometimes not. I have inspected the block at the end of a range day and it looked fine. The next day on the range it breaks within the first couple of drills. The problem is you never know if the round in the chamber has fired or not when the slide freezes up. Usually the round is has been fired, but not always.
Instant paper weight!


SERPENT5XX

[Basenshukai]

Gentlemen,

Hopefully the M9 will go away in SOF.

It may be a great gun for a person that carries it but only shoots 100 rounds a year and feels they actually NEED a de-cock and a safe together (I hate that feature) on a combat gun. Personally I have seen several guys transition to their secondary only to find the de-cock safe has done its thing and is on de-cock/safe when you do not want it to be. Fortunately only in training so far, but I love the look on their face when the gun will not go bang. :D Of course a burst of expletives will usually issue forth from their mouth after they figure out what has happened. Speaking of that I noticed the 2004 SFAUC manual actually shows the M9 being holstered and drawn in the De-cock safe mode!? This is a change from years past.
Are they teaching this at Bragg now?
Reaper?
What is the deal?

I would love to have a 1911 style gun. I grew up with the 1911 in SF and shoot several of my own when I can. The HK-USP’s are OK but a 1911 would be better.

About locking blocks.
According to a guy in the know, the current M9 locking block is version # 4 and costs Uncle Sugar $84.00!!! They all break. I have not seen a difference in the "new" ones as far as durability.


SERPENT5XX

SFAUC Committee might have changed their teaching methodology and I cannot speculate as to why. However, company-wide, our SOP is to have the secondary weapon on fire with a round in the chamber while holstered. The SFAUC committee did teach to finger the safety lever (with the thumb, of course) to ensure that the weapon was, in fact, ready to fire. We practiced it often enough (all the time) as to make that check instantaneous and part of the movement of drawing the weapon.

My personal M9 is the 92 G version with only a decocker. I feel this is a much better approach. I also own two Glocks, which I like because besides being the "AK 47" of handguns (as far as durability), they are always ready to fire.

[SERPENT5XX]

Roger- Basensukai,

We carry our M9's the same way. I am sure the reason Beretta came up with the "G" model 92 was to address the dislike with the de-cock safe in the civilian market. Given the choice I would certainly prefer a "G" model to a "F" any day. You have to wonder why the M9 has a de-cock safe in the first place.

We used some Glocks in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some guys like them and some did not. The main issue with the guys who did not like them was the lack of a positive safety when re-holstering especially during concealed carry. Operators were used to re-holstering the M9 with their thumb on the hammer of the pistol (as taught at Mid-South). This is a safety precaution and allows you to feel if anything is pulling the trigger. Usually unlikely, but I have seen guys try to push a M9 in one of the old nylon drop-leg holsters and catch the retaining strap in the trigger. Not hard to do when you are in a rush and have a ton of lightweight assaulter gear on or it is dark and you are trying to get your pistol back in your holster so you can get your M4 back up. Luckily the guy felt the hammer come back and stopped pushing. Also a old SF guy who worked at one of the major civilian shooting schools told me of the three AD's he had seen where people have shot themselves it was a Glock each time and happened when re-holstering. They believe the guys shirt caught the trigger when being pushed in the holster. This guy loved Glocks and I am certainly not slamming Glocks, I like them and have several. This is just my observation and the observation of the guys that carried them OCONUS.
The point here is to know the strengths and weaknesses of each tool and plan accordingly. The Glock is a tough durable weapon and I think it would be great tool for SF.

SERPENT5XX

[Psywar1-0]

Ive had the same Ah Shit myself one too many times. Led me to start carrying a M9 with non ball ammo as my stateside CCW. I really prefer my compact 45, but.........

Now If I could just get a leatherman that had better fragmentation :D

[Basenshukai]

Now If I could just get a leatherman that had better fragmentation :D

I'm telling my 18E about this quote!!! By the way, he now keeps the Leatherman pouch well away from his 9mm pouches ... just in case. Though, I don't think he's ever gonna live this down. :D

[Sinister]

PSYWAR, we at the AMU are going to bring the six M1911"A2" pistols we have been prototyping for USASOC to Tampa on the 7th of December.

The common line is a Caspian light-rail frame, stainless steel match barrel and bushing, extended thumb safety, lanyard loop, flared loading well, and Ed Brown beavertail...

The options include one of five different suppressors, operator-option sight (adjustable Novak Combat with glow-in-the-dark/day fiber optic dots, or Bo-Mar with the same options -- they quick-fit in the dove-tail); different finishes (Bear Coat; NP-3; some other different ones, between black, grey, and coyote); internal or external ejector.

[Chindo18Z]

Greetings Serpent: I have posted or responded to similar threads on The High Road & The Firing Line firearms bulletin boards. Problems with my unit's M9s got me searching those internet boards for precisely your reasons a coupla years ago.

In a nutshell, you are not dreaming. The M9s are boat anchors. Mostly locking block failures; sometimes trigger return springs. During the late 80s / early 90s (when we didn't shoot them a lot), they held together. Once we turned up the round count, the emperor had no clothes. Seen 'em start to fail as early as 2500-4000 rounds.

Here is a representative response I wrote for a High Road thread. The original poster wanted to know who had ACTUALLY seen Beretta failures vs. passing around choking doberman stories. My reponse:

"Problems w/ My Beretta (M9):

I have had a locking block lug shear off in my weapon while firing (completely jammed the weapon; required trip to armorer's vise and hand tools to disassemble and remove). This occurred during CQB type training course in 2000.

I have had a trigger return spring break while firing, disabling trigger function. This occurred 2001.

I have replaced a second locking block on a second M9 after discovering crack (about 40% thru lug) while performing weapon maintenance after firing. 2001

Problems w/ Others' Berettas (also M9s):

I observed the trigger return spring on my boss's M9 break during range trainup for Afghanistan. He was amazed that the trigger no longer made the gun go boom. Occurred 2001.

I have had one of my team member's M9 go down due to broken locking block while standing in the middle of nowhere (expedient firing range) in Bosnia. This was disconcerting to him because he was now the only dude in sight without a working weapon. We laughed at him...but it wasn't really funny. 1998.

I have observed another team member's M9 drop the trigger return spring into the dirt while practicing transition drills. To be fair, his right grip panel had become loose and he didn't notice until he drew and weapon failed to fire. Occurred 1999. During the same range session, another NCO's M9 suffered from having the right decocking lever (an aluminum casting) shear off (probably from being chunked into a pile of LBV and other gear while holstered in the owner's assault vest).

I have seen 2 broken locking blocks at remote detachment firebases in Afghanistan (two different locations). 2002.

I once counted forty-seven (47) broken locking blocks (collected in a little pile) produced by the 83 assigned weapons in my unit during a 12 month period (Oct 99-Oct 00). We were using the pistols quite a bit...

On the Other Hand:

I recently watched about 20+ soldiers conduct M9 familiarization drills using the same four range weapons for everyone. Each man fired between 50 and 100 rds. All weapons functioned without a stutter.

I once deliberately put 850+ rds thru my M9 without benefit of additonal oil or cleaning (other than applying a shaving brush to knock of the sand) just to see if I could get that puppy to jam. It didn't...but it started to cycle sluggishly. At that point, I field stripped it on the range during lunch hour, did a modicum of cleaning with a brush and a rag, added some CLP, and was back to firing after lunch. This was a CQB type training course involving a lot of movement thru a range surface made of sand.

I carry a Beretta because I have to. It's issued. I also own one so that I can practice on my own time with the same type weapon I am issued.

Personally Observed Problems Other Pistols (Just to be Fair):

In 1978, the plunger tube on my GI 1911A1 started to work loose but never actually interfered with function. Armorer repaired it.

In 1983, I had the firing pin stop on another GI 1911A1 completely break in half while firing (which of course disabled the weapon). I dropped a new one in (spare parts in range kit) after re-seating the firing pin/firing pin spring and was good to go.

I also saw another 1911A1 dropped from the back of a moving 2.5 ton truck (out of an unfastened shoulder holster). The pistol landed on a clay tank trail and was promptly run over by the back set of wheels (the deuce and a half was backing up). The owner, a might bit concerned, policed up the weapon, knocked the clay and sand off, walked over to the firing line, and loaded her up. She fired without a hitch and continued to fire accurately for the next 2 weeks of training. If you ever plan on running over your weapon, I heartily endorse a steel frame over an aluminum one .

Not a Pistol, But:

I have had the operating rod break clean thru on an AK-47 (right behind the gas piston). Really."
__________________
Figure the Odds...

BTW: The 1911 vignettes happened out at Mott Lake (back in the day).

SFAUC sustainment will continue to kill our Berettas until we get what we need.

Have you read the message delineating requirements for the new SOF SCP/CCP? Ding Dong... the witch is dead (hopefully).

HK USP/C good. SIG 220 good. Custom 1911 very good. All good. M9 bad. Please God, don't let them screw this up...

I generally avoid Immediate Argument Drills concerning the M9 (but you're a Group guy and you asked :D ). Some people love theirs. I'm happy for them. Then again, some folks just don't know what they don't know...

[Roguish Lawyer]

Team Sergeant:

Your thoughts?

:munchin

[Sinister]

Hah! I gotta remember that!

:D

[jatx]

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

[The Reaper]

Team Sergeant!!!

Tr

[shadowflyer]

I have a USP Compact .40 and I have put about 10-15k rounds through it with only 1 witnessed malfunction. I have put 500-1000 rounds through it in one day training sessions with no issues. I clean it religiously and have had no issues with it .....save the one malfunction and I attributed that to crappy ammo as I switched ammo and I have not had any issues since.

Just My .02 cents worth.

JJ






I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

[Chindo18Z]

Sinister: PSYWAR, we at the AMU are going to bring the six M1911"A2" pistols we have been prototyping for USASOC to Tampa on the 7th of December.

The common line is a Caspian light-rail frame, stainless steel match barrel and bushing, extended thumb safety, lanyard loop, flared loading well, and Ed Brown beavertail...

The options include one of five different suppressors, operator-option sight (adjustable Novak Combat with glow-in-the-dark/day fiber optic dots, or Bo-Mar with the same options -- they quick-fit in the dove-tail); different finishes (Bear Coat; NP-3; some other different ones, between black, grey, and coyote); internal or external ejector.

Sinister: Some thoughts (from the peanut gallery) on selling your 1911 concept to higher...

1. Don't make the mistake of getting lost in the weeds over tricked out guns.
1-10th SFG did this and wound up not getting anything. Every SME in every Group has an opinion; debating Kimber vs. Springfield vs. Colt vs. Wilson vs. Caspian will just get the project derailed. Don't get locked into a death spiral over brand loyalty or special feature minutia.

2. Remember that the real bottom line is...THE BOTTOM LINE $. If AMU can produce & support (maintenance-wise) enough pistols to equip the force, I'm all for it. Better still, let AMU honcho the specs, then contract the weapon out to firm/s (not necessarily Crane) which can mass produce. You are going to need well over 10,000 weapons to equip USSOCOM units. Every nice to have (but gratuitous) feature will drive the cost up...

3. Remember KISS. The 1911A1 rep was built upon caliber, reliability, durability, user repairability in the field, excellent speed/accuracy of SA first shot, and acceptable combat accuracy. Build a "race gun" and everything will suffer except for caliber & accuracy. Don't build a target pistol. With a .45 ACP 1911A2, accuracy and lethality will take care of themselves. As the Democrats might say (in a different universe): "It's About the Reliability Stupid...".

4. I agree with including Light Rail, Beavertail Safety, Lanyard Loop, and Beveled Magazine Well. Having said that, consider:

Things To Not Include:

a. National Match Barrel and Bushing: NOT. STICK WITH A STOCK STAINLESS BARREL AND STANDARD BUSHING. A well designed 1911A2 of recent manufacture would provide more than acceptable accuracy for 98% of our shooters while staying inside of slop parameters required to ensure absolute reliability in the field. Everyone seems to have forgotten this virtue (which was inherent in the A1). Next thing you know, someone will want to peen the rails, tighten the slide, and do action jobs on all the guns.

A newly manufactured WWII spec gun, with a standard barrel & bushing, decent grips, and some MODERN sights, will put them in the X-ring out to 25 meters. The object is to keep this level of accuracy while retaining the ability for an 18B to replace parts in the field (without gunsmithing) AND ensure reliable cycle of function in all environments and terrain. If you hand me an IPSC game gun to haul over to Absurdistan, I'm probably going to throw it back at you and just take the damn M9.

Before anyone interjects that certain USSOCOM units have a higher accuracy requirement than Group, NSW, STS, 160th, CA, PSYOPS, and RGR RGT...keep in mind that they have in-house assets to build and maintain their guns. We are trying to arrive at a reliable tool which will inhabit the arms rooms and holsters of the average ODA (or USN Platoon). Let's face it...most of our guys are not really pistol competitors, gunsmiths, or handgun afficiondos. When it comes to handguns, most are journeyman as opposed to experts and would as soon read MAXIM as COMBAT HANDGUNS. They regard their weapons as tools and will pretty much do well with whatever is issued (through exceptional training, lots of ammo, repetitious drills, and mindset). Attempting to provide enhanced accuracy, while commendable, is a disservice to a guy who now needs a barrel wrench to disassemble/clear his tightly hand-fitted and sand-filled weapon. Anything which requires Depot or Manufacturer Level maintenance is a detriment to accomplishing the mission. Company Armorers will have neither the skills nor the parts needed to hand-fit new National Match Barrels to mated bushings. Emphasize marksmanship fundamentals (rolled into proper combat firing techniques) in lieu of mechanical improvement to POTENTIAL accuracy.

b. Adjustable Sights: Adjustables are of dubious utility. One more thing to break. Ensure the weapon shoots POA w/ 230 ball. Optional heights for dovetail front sight if different weight bullets become standard. High visibility, low profile, plain black Novaks would suffice. Tritium dots look like railroad flares thru night vision devices. I have read good things about the Novak adjustables w/ tritium but would want to see some serious torture testing before committing to them.

c. Extended thumb safety: DON'T GO THERE. I've carried cocked and locked 1911s for almost 30 years (military & civilian concealed, military CQB assault carry, vehicular ops, airborne ops, waterborne ops, winter warfare, desert ops, mountain ops, jungle ops, and countless woodland patrols). I've used most types (if not brands) of holsters throughout this period. Whether wearing a suit coat, driving a car, rolling over the lip of a window frame or roof parapet, crawling through concrete rubble, low crawling across a forest floor, or blasting out of a C-130...extended thumb safeties are a BAD idea. They tend to disengage while in the holster. Ambidexterous extended safties are even worse. The standard safety that JMB put on the gun is fine (with the knurling found on the early model 1911A1s). CQB Operators can reach the OME safety just fine as is (even while wearing NOMEX gloves).

d. External Extractor: WHY? (Besides cheaper for manufacturer). One more place for little gritty things to enter the action. One less thing that can be replaced or tweaked by the operator while deployed. If it ain't broken...leave it alone.

e. Gucci Finish: You could lose a lot of $ cost $ by losing this as an issue. Parkerization worked pretty damn well for 80+ years. If the color coordination of my Gucci Kit is really a concern, spray paint works fine (you should see my raggedy looking Safariland 6004 or my M4A1). If the enemy is close enough to detect the color of my non-concealed holstered weapon, I've got other concerns. The only thing I expect my opponent to see of my 1911 is a large black hole before I kill him. Matte Gray or OD phosphated finish would be fine for all environments (with the obvious exception of needing black sights). Stainless is good, but covered up in gray/OD finish (like SIG 220 or Glock)

f. Alloy Frame: NO. I loathe every extra ounce I am forced to carry. I'm already going to have to carry more ammo weight in .45 rounds and magazines vs. 9mm. However, my gut experience tells me that we (SOF) will wear out aluminum framed guns much earlier than advertised by whomever builds them. I'd say stick with all-steel frame and avoid looking for replacement handguns 10 years from now. I used to carry an all-steel 1911A1 to the field; I'll willingly do it again.

Additionally, overall accuracy will decline for most guys due to the loss of recoil-dampening weight in an alloy gun (especially in compact version).

g. MIM, Cast, Plastic Parts: While we are on the subject, ABSOLUTELY NO MIM OR PLASTIC PARTS. ESPECIALLY EJECTORS, SLIDE STOPS, FIRING PIN STOPS, EXTRACTORS...

h. Front Slide Serrations: Tits on a Boar. Save the $ and lose 'em.

Additional Things to Include:

a. Stippeled Front Strap: YES. Otherwise, everyone is just going to put skate board tape across the bow anyway...

b. Figure out a bomb-proof spring set-up that can handle .45 +P or .45 Super. The latest SNL (as you know) requires this. Make it work without FLGRs and silly-ass shock buffers. Standard bushing.

c. Optional Arched Steel Mainspring Housing. Some of us old farts prefer them :p

d. Throated & Ported: YES. One of the few justifiable improvements to the original design besides sight replacement. Probably already thought of but I didn't see it listed.

Looking at all that I have written above, I'm essentially describing something like the Springfield TLE. Any good brand will do. Just make sure that it will go bang everytime and anywhere. Keep It Simple Stupid. Functional and Lethal...Not Pretty.

Well, opinions are like you know what and YMMV. I wish you well in getting us a 1911A2. I would really love to resurrect my favorite war-horse but won't cry if the new pistol winds up being an HK or SIG. Good Luck in December!

[Guy]

Chindo18Z:

Sounds like you like the Glock? :munchin

[Chindo18Z]

Serpent: My apologies for getting off thread and turning M9 problem post into a discussion of substitutes for the Beretta.

In a nutshell, my take on the M9:

Pros: High Capacity; Excellent Feeding Reliability; Quick First Shot (DA w/ Safety OFF); Acceptable to Good Trigger Pull and Accuracy

Cons: Marginal Caliber (in FMJ), Overly Large for a 9mm Platform & Concealed Carry; Poor Durability Under Heavy Use by SOF, Superfluous Safety (Needs Decocker Only); Front Sight Not Replaceable; GI Magazine Problems.

Of these, the high capacity is my favorite "pro" and the poor durability is my least favorite "con". The gun is kinda like a FIAT; when it's running it's great...when it breaks, you are standing by the side of the road, SOL. Excepting previously mentioned breakage issues, the M9 is an excellent military handgun.

If I had to walk into a room, take a brand new factory semi-auto out of its wrapper, load it, and walk into the next room for a gunfight, I have a very short list of candidates (YMMV):

GI 1911A1 .45 ACP (Ball Ammo Only)
Browning P-35 (Ball Ammo Only)
SIG 220
HK USP/C .40
CZ-75/85
Beretta 92 / M9 (and pray that it doesn't decide to let go right then)

and, yes Guy...Glock (any size, any caliber)

Despite thinking highly of Glocks (having owned several since the 1980s), I would not choose one as a general issue replacement for the M9 in SOF. I've become disenchanted with observed and reported ADs (even good guys have brain-lock), re-holstering/carry limitations, and plastic sights for hard use. Glocks are great weapons for fast presentation but somewhat problematic to put away quickly and safely (in the dark, in full kit/body armor, while prone, while in a vehicle, while moving, etc.).

Concerning military handgun selection, it's not ALL about the quickest first shot. It's also about Stress, Fear, Adrenaline, Darkness, Cold, Wet, Diminished Fine Motor Skills, Weapon Manipulation w/o Looking Anywhere but Downrange, and Fratricide (whether in Combat or Training). I'm willing to bet that the service 1911A1 inflicted as many friendly casualties in un-trained hands as it inflicted on the enemy over 80 years. Easy to say "more training"; less easy to be the Commander doing the 1506 Investigation.

I used to think that DA/SA was a solution in search of a problem...no longer. It's one of the neat things about the HK, Beretta, SIG series. Teach a guy to thumb the lever after engaging and the weapon is safe and ready to reholster.

For all that, I am personally very comfortable with cocked-and-locked, and would make damn sure that my guys were too. Just like teaching our guys to carry the M9 hot & safety off. The main thing is to come to a single, simple manual of arms that allows you to rapidly engage the enemy with a minimum of extra actions (sounds like the Glock...yes?) and THEN, just as rapidly put it away. Not as easy as it sounds when you are REALLY PUMPED, looking for your holster with gloved hands, and have a hot Glock in your mitts...

I like being able to make the weapon positively SAFE while it's in front of me, put away, and get back to other tasks at hand (driving, radio call, clear primary M4A1, etc.)

Damn...I drifted off topic again. Oh, well. I once voted FOR the M9 before I voted AGAINST it...

[JHB]

Don't feel bad everybody dislikes the M-9. The rumor at one time for Berretta was that in is later productions the metal alloy was not up to spped with the higher pressures of the NATO 9mm round. Since then the design of the new Berretta .357 Sig. was to replace the problems. We all now the Govt. will adopt another new calliber. The 357 is not a world wide round, but still very sweet.

I would still keep my HK or Glock all have seen close to 35-45K and still performs great. Keep the Berretta where it belongs, In a display case or with the Air Force.....

For What it's worth!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sinister]

Chindo, we put together the prototype guns based on what USASOC asked for. The idea for an "A2" was to get it adopted and issue M1911A1s immedaitely as an "In lieu of" item.

Springfields fell out because there's no North America production base for the frames and slides. Caspians will come with frontstrap checkering already done, and slides won't have front striations. You won't need a bushing wrench. It'll be throated and ported for GI Ball and Winchester 185 +P (per spec).

There isn't a barrel maker in the United States who makes a stainless .45 barrel, hammer, or other internals who can meet Army production demand and maintain MILSPEC or better accuracy. Period.

There is no out-of-the-box production M1911A1 made in the United States that produces X-ring accuracy. M9 E-type, yes -- X-ring, no.

USASOC asked for Gucci colors.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Great thread and discussion. I am learning a lot.

It sounds a little like once again they tried to get one tool that will meet everybody's needs. Maybe E-type accuracy is good enough for a defensive pistol for 99% of the military in other words. The other 1% need X ring for offensive purposes.

I did not know the M9 was pushed by the Air Force - I find it incredible that the AF or blue Navy would even have a dog in the hunt. The SOC needs to do like Reaper said in another post - basically become a branch. Own promotions, own procurement, etc. This type of conflict will go on long enough to justify that I think. Maybe put it as the ops program for the Agency. Does it sound like i'm trying to reform the OSS yet? :cool:

[Team Sergeant]

I have some experience with the USP Compact. In one day of training last year, I ran about 400 rounds through mine and experienced multiple malfunctions. The slide would not return to full battery after being released on several occasions (and I wasn't just thumbling the slide release). That was easily solved by smacking the rear of the slide. Then, with each of my four magazines, I experienced double feeds. Finally, I experienced multiple extraction problems, with the spent casings sometimes rotating 180 degrees and getting stuck in the chamber, sometimes flying straight backward and leaving a bloody mark on my forehead.

I walked off the range and called it a day when the rear sight worked loose. The gun was brand new (<1000 rounds), clean, and I was shooting plain old 230 gr. Winchester hardball. Not sure I'd want to see you guys depending on this one, either, FWIW. Oh, and the 8 lbs. "single action" trigger pull isn't exactly a winner, either...

Jatx,
I’ve yet to hear anyone experience the kinds of problems you seem to have had with a H&K pistol. I can say I’ve never had any of the problems you’ve mentioned, where did you receive your weapons training? I see by your profile you are an investment banker, I was a professional soldier, you think there might be a correlation there? All I own in H&K pistols and would not hesitate to use them in a combat situation.

All you SF AD types, why you guys do not have a better sidearm at the present time is beyond me. Actually I would venture to guess its all about politics, sad but IMO true.

I’m not going to beat a dead horse, the M9 should be thrown in the trash can. Simply the worst pistol ever fielded for SOF in our great history. The only reason we acquired the weapon is it was free and as all the general purpose forces were issued the gun so were we. Its sad we didn’t take a stand then and turn it away.

If I were running the show I would not issue kimbers, too high end and with a high end piece comes a high maintenance cost and down time. Only if every operator was issued 2 kimbers would I even think about it. The other organizations that currently utilize the kimbers can also easily afford the cost and down time.

It’s time to ask Springfield Armory, Colt, Remington, etc to build a weapon for SOF. A pistol that will NOT be marketed for the FBI, LEO’s, etc, an offensive handgun with rails, lights, silencers etc. Why won’t they build one, I’m betting two reasons, money and a litigious society.

TS

[Razor]

Are the MARSOC guys using a Series I (no goofy firing pin safety) Kimber with a rail? They may have some useful input on whether they hold up or not.

[Chindo18Z]

Chindo, we put together the prototype guns based on what USASOC asked for. The idea for an "A2" was to get it adopted and issue M1911A1s immedaitely as an "In lieu of" item.

Springfields fell out because there's no North America production base for the frames and slides. Caspians will come with frontstrap checkering already done, and slides won't have front striations. You won't need a bushing wrench. It'll be throated and ported for GI Ball and Winchester 185 +P (per spec).

There isn't a barrel maker in the United States who makes a stainless .45 barrel, hammer, or other internals who can meet Army production demand and maintain MILSPEC or better accuracy. Period.

There is no out-of-the-box production M1911A1 made in the United States that produces X-ring accuracy. M9 E-type, yes -- X-ring, no.

USASOC asked for Gucci colors.

Sinister: All Good Points! Did not understand the USASOC proponency for your project. Thought you were trying to convince THEM to buy a bottom generated proposal. Alles klar... I think I know some of the folks responsible. That explains the fashion finishes. One of my current projects is to generate Co/Bn level user feedback to USASFC concerning proposed specs for the M-9 replacement. They are asking all Groups for input NLT EOM November.

Re: Stainless barrels & parts; agreed. Don't particularly care a hoot about them. Nor stainless frame/slide. Nice to have but not necessary.

Re: "X-ring". All right, I'm not a competitive shooter. I'll agree. But...I have SEEN arms room issue 1911A1s, fired by expert shooters (former AMU, Camp Perry competitors, etc.) put all rounds inside the 10 ring (with most clustered on/around the x) at 25M slow aimed fire. Most GI guns can produce 3-5 inch groups (mechanical accuracy). Down at team level, this translates into 1) all rounds COM chest at combat firing distance (1M-15M) or 2) controlled pairs (aimed) to the head of E-type at 25M. Been there, done that, repeatedly, and with SOT classes which included previous non-shooters (after 2 - 3 weeks of training). Accuracy has never been the issue. 1911 or M9...both are accurate enough. If you guys can make it work reliably w/ the NM parts (and a bit more accuracy), I'm definitely for it. Sights will really make the big difference.

I really like the idea of breaking out the 1911A1s. Armory refurbished, with new commercial sights, and some decent grips...that would be a 90% solution that would blow away the M-9 right now.

Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming Govt Model Frame/Slide & 5" barrel?

Your prototypes sound good. Hope I didn't sound like I was trying to teach anyone to suck eggs. I get a little passionate about the topic and find it easy to climb onto my soapbox. Again, good luck.


Jatx: Sorry to hear about your HK. Honestly, it sounds like you got a lemon (every manufacturer makes them). I have the same gun. Runs like a champ. I'm still waiting for the first malfunction. I just simulate malfunction drills with that pistol. I usually hate over-hyped, over-priced, overblown hardware, but have to admit, HK makes a fine pistol in the USP series. Thinking seriously about getting the .45 Compact version.

[SERPENT5XX]

Chindo18Z

Great posts!

I agree with your take on a 1911. Often we are our own worst enemy when trying to select a new weapon. Ft Bragg likes to say we do not even know what we want. In some ways this is true because everybody starts arguing what brand, what kind of magazine release, what match so and so part etc. It reminds me of ordering pizza with a large goup. At some point you just need to agree. You can scrape the stuff off you really do not like later but at least you got pizza.

I would be happy with a basic COMBAT 1911. Fixed Novak type sights, a beavertail, a standard safety, standard mag release and accurate enough to hit “One Minute of Man” at 25 yards. If Ft. Bragg provided that I would be happy. Any modification to the standard issue could be done by unit Gunsmith. Grips, grip panels, skate-board tape and other trimmings could be installed by the user. As far as Gucci colors- Wally World matte Krylon. Personally I have never been in a situation where the camouflage of my holstered pistol was an issue, but hey if it makes a guy feel better spray away.

Meanwhile the unit broke 2 more locking blocks in the last two weeks.

Thanks to everybody for the great information.

SERPENT5XX

[Sinister]

Serpent, our thoughts as well. Back in the day (when we were clearing with basic M1911A1s and M16A1s) we could modify our pistols any way we wanted them, and if they had to be evac'ed or Code-H'ed the armorer put the base plain-Jane parts back on and shipped the gun out, sometimes never to be seen again.

On other teams we had two 45s per Soldier -- one a National Match that could shoot five shots into one hole, and the other a rattly old pistol that would shoot every time (like an AK).

Then came the A2s and M9s, and they sat in the racks while we shot our TDA 45s and Colt M723s (M4 lower, A1 upper with M4 barrel) until those pistols fell apart, and then there was nothing else. Eventually the M9s replaced all the 45s (sad day when I cracked my last slide) and the M4s replaced the 723s.

[skibum]

Razor, the MARSOC ICQB(Interim CQB) pistol is a series I pistol. It does have a rail, an after market Dawson Precision (Kimber did not have the integral light rail frame, or it was not yet proven at the time of purchase). Pat Rogers on Tactical Forums has posted extensively on them, so I won't try to remember and regurgitate everything. I will say that he reports they held up very well to a heavy round-count (around 20K-plus, I think) during the Det's work-up. It has a lot of MIM parts.
Hope this helps.

[brownapple]

I'm willing to bet that the service 1911A1 inflicted as many friendly casualties in un-trained hands as it inflicted on the enemy over 80 years.

I'll take that bet. You'll lose. :D

I have SEEN arms room issue 1911A1s, fired by expert shooters (former AMU, Camp Perry competitors, etc.) put all rounds inside the 10 ring (with most clustered on/around the x) at 25M slow aimed fire.

As a pistol team competitor, I saw a demonstration by an AMU member/President's 100 shooter in which he placed 10 rounds through a ragged hole at 25 meters, all Xs.... 2 upright, 2 with pistol sideways left, 2 with pistol upside down (squeezing trigger with pinky), 2 sideways right and 2 upright again.

[Jeff22]

I am a retired Security Policeman from the Air National Guard (also did 4 yrs in the local MP detachment) and currently a civilian police officer.

During my military career, I carried the S&W 15 .38 revolver, the M1911Al and the Beretta M9. In all cases I liked them so much I bought examples for my personal battery.

I keep pretty good track of how many rounds I expend in practice. I broke the locking block on my original 92FS at about 18,000 rounds and cracked the frame at slightly over 30,000 rounds. (Beretta replaced it for free)

During my civilian police career, I've carried a Colt Combat Commander, a Smith & Wesson 15 and a Sig 226. I've shot two Sigs to destruction -- takes about 35,000 rounds to break the frame rails (using standard velocity ammo). One was my issue gun that I got in December of 1989 and broke in September of 2001, and the other was a used gun in which I was the 4th or 5th owner. (both guns were replaced by Sig for free).(We just transitioned to the 226R-DAK in .40 cal a couple weeks ago.)

Everything breaks if you shoot it enough.

I personally always liked the M9 and shot it very well, but I believe the circumference of the grip is too big for a general issue gun. Personnel with smaller hands just couldn't deal with the length of pull from the backstrap to the trigger.
(I have big hands and long fingers, and I can make most guns work).

I always thought the M1911 style pistols fit just about any hand because they were so thin. But before I'd let GIs or cops carry "cocked & locked" (which I did as a civilian for about 6-1/2 years) I'd make sure they had a significant amount of initial training and frequent retraining. You have to know what you're doing with a single action auto pistol carried in condition one.

[kgoerz]

Working at SFARTEC where we issued students the the same M-9 pistols time after time. The only part we had consistantly break was the Locking Block.

[longtab]

But how many problems are guys experiencing with M9 Brigadier's? Which MOST ODA's should have by now, or at least the Brigadier slide.

I shot over 10,000 rounds through my team pistol this last trip. No problems with issue ammo, but it didn't like the cheapo 9mm we gave our Iraqi's. It wouldn't malfunction but it would function slow. The pistol shoots fine, hits what I point it at, and was on my leg on every mission. My only complaint is that its made for a girls hands :D but that is remedied by Hogue "man grips", also I wish the safety was a decocker only like the 92G. FWIW I think its a pretty decent pistol, of course I've never had a slide fly off and smack me in the teeth either. My 2¢.

[Gene Econ]

I did not know the M9 was pushed by the Air Force - I find it incredible that the AF or blue Navy would even have a dog in the hunt. The SOC needs to do like Reaper said in another post - basically become a branch. Own promotions, own procurement, etc.

Doc:

The 9mm cartridge was pretty much mandated by congress. During that time -- mid 80's -- there was a lot of political push towards being more like the Europeans and the 9mm issue was part of this mess. I also think that DoD wanted to standardize pistol cartridges with NATO. Guys who knew better were ignored. SF wasn't a branch at the time and there was no USSOCOM or ASOC to project intent and influence the RDTE system. However, there was SWCS and to my recollection, no comments or input were given by SWCS concerning the 9mm issue.

I was fortunate to listen to the Colonel who OIC'd the pistol evaluation as he gave a breifing on this particular test. The test had to be textbook in terms of perfection due to the immense pressure of DoD and the companies who submitted pistols for evaluation. I dare say that it was easier to test the M-1 Tank.

There was enough pressure placed on the system by others to allow some .45 M-1911's into the test. I don't think any of them even 'placed' in any of the tests. In other words, they all showed failures of one sort or the other while any one of the 9mm competitors didn't. I can recall my surprise to learn that the 1911 was on the low end for a dust test that is done with all firearms. Fired while in a dusty environment much like the fine dust in a desert. The 1911's were at the bottom of the list in this particular test.

The proponents of the .45 M-1911 claimed that the failures were due to the use of .45 ACP ammunition that wasn't the traditional issued WCC .45 ACP. I believe they were probably right but that is now history. The DoD and congress basically mandated the 9mm cartridge and the 1911s failed in so many of the evaluations that nothing more could be said.

Colt did offer to convert the 1911's to 9mm at a significantly lesser cost than buying a new pistol. Unfortunately, the requirements document demanded more things than anyone could do with the 1911 frame.

'Serpent 6' knows exactly what he is talking about and I bet the AMU is submitting a pistol that meets the requirements established by SOCOM. I would not blame the AMU or any company for that matter on the item they submit for evaluation. They only respond to a very detailed requirements document that is more than likely extremely unrealistic in its demands. The fellow who authors the requirements document is taking input from the 'field' so if anyone has problems with these things -- an operator somewhere is the one who is behind the performance demands that result in a typically competitive grade of pistol.

Gene

[sfmedicw9]

Working at SFARTEC where we issued students the the same M-9 pistols time after time. The only part we had consistantly break was the Locking Block.


Also working at the lake / range 37 when we first transitioned fom the 1911s. We shot the holy crap out of those M9s they would go through 13 week course after 13 week course during wich the students put 1000s of rounds of 9mm through them - the only problem was the locking blocks

BUT THEN some knuckleheads blew off some slides by using 9mm carbine ammo and then we had to replace the slides every 1000 rnds then every 3000 rounds even after they retrofitted them with the slide catch.

i never replaced mine at the lake and by the time i switched it I had over 15k on the one gun no problems

I have been shooting m9s when the go down due to locking blocks and the best way i can dwscribe the failure sequence is thaty the gun starts feeling "crunchy" then when it finaly goes down it locks shut.

if you look over the ejection port one block will be lower than the other - just keep it pointed down range and fiddle with it until you can get the emty case out.

if you keep a spare locking lug on the range - no real break in training


The arguments that this gun is best or that gun is best crack me up - its a personal preference thing and i think that training trumps types of gun in most cases.

the best gun you can have is the one your most trained with.

I still shoot berreta products to this day because thats what im comfortable with - If your a glock guy I wouldnt want you to switch if you doing something other than shooting paper

fact is when the proverbial shit hits the fan you'll always try to shoot what your most trained with no matter whats in your hand.