View Full Version : MFF soon to be part of the Q course
bkleonards
10-05-2012, 08:25
FYI Gents, WOW:
www.army.mil/article/88636/
Cool Breeze
10-05-2012, 08:39
It's about time.
69harley
10-05-2012, 09:28
What about the guys that are on teams already, some of which have waited years to get into MFF. There is going to be some pissed of guys when young X-Rays start hitting the teams with their cool guy wings.
What about the guys that are on teams already, some of which have waited years to get into MFF. There is going to be some pissed of guys when young X-Rays start hitting the teams with their cool guy wings.
Sympathy cards?
Dozer523
10-05-2012, 10:40
What about the guys that are on teams already, some of which have waited years to get into MFF. There is going to be some pissed of guys when young X-Rays start hitting the teams with their cool guy wings.
Wah.
As a FOG who has seen this and similar insertion issues come up once or twice or thrice ...
When it finally comes down to chuting up and rolling the AC past the PONR the deciding question will be, "Can we absolutely, get The team out."
And when the answer is, "No" or even "Not 'absolutely'",Ya'll might as well crack open a cold one; nobody's going anywhere.
(I hear ya, and on Team I said the same thing and different variations. But "one way" missions don't happen.) 0.02
So the pipeline is how many MILES long now?.
From the press release, I see that HAHO is part of the curriculum. In my day HAHO was a working theory. My question is when did HAHO transition from an "advanced skill" to part of the standard course and when did HAHO operations become common on the teams?
You guys get to have all the fun!
HA--anything has to be a huge rush.. Have you guys ever done it? i was told it doesn't happen to often, maybe people just don't speak of it?
Do you Gentlemen think this move is to keep the QP's on the forefront of operational capability? If a HALO insertion is needed they could just grab a team form that theater and uses them?
69harley
10-05-2012, 12:25
Wah.
As a FOG who has seen this and similar insertion issues come up once or twice or thrice ...
When it finally comes down to chuting up and rolling the AC past the PONR the deciding question will be, "Can we absolutely, get The team out."
And when the answer is, "No" or even "Not 'absolutely'",Ya'll might as well crack open a cold one; nobody's going anywhere.
(I hear ya, and on Team I said the same thing and different variations. But "one way" missions don't happen.) 0.02
So the pipeline is how many MILES long now?.
Not whinning. I went in the mid 90s. Running joke then was that getting into MFF was the hardest thing thing the Army had. Again, a joke, but I did go on stanby six times before getting in.
I have many friends that have been on teams for 'awhile' and have had their packets in for 'awhile' and still have not been. All of them are really thrilled that the new guys coming out of the Q will have been to MFF.
Aside from this, has any given any thought as to how/if the groups will maintain
Pro Level 1? My guess is they won't maintain everyone at PL1 and the status quoe of just certain teams.
I feel bad for the guys that have already paid some dues and have not had the opportunity. Seems like a slap in the face.
Old Dog New Trick
10-05-2012, 14:01
Retention and recruiting numbers must be falling at terminal velocity.
:munchin
medic&commo
10-05-2012, 14:19
Wonder if Key West will become incorporated into SFQC as well?
m&c
Eagle5US
10-05-2012, 16:24
Damn...
As difficult as it currently is not being on a HALO team to get a square chute...I can only IMAGINE what it is going to be like when this starts rolling in.
We already have to provide our own JM because the Team guys have to jump "Organic Only" for their pass...
There will be no way to maintain any inkling of proficiency.
This is going to be one more headache. Bright idea faery strikes again -:rolleyes:
Wonder if Key West will become incorporated into SFQC as well?
m&c
Nope. There are simply not the reasoning, nor the facilities, for such an action.
Plus, the water is not for everyone.
longrange1947
10-05-2012, 18:31
So we are going to take a troop that is dam competent at being SF and throw his ass out because he can't get stable, has altitude problems or some other such shit for an infil technique rarely used. Yep, makes sense to me, NOT!!!!!! :munchin
This is stupid wasteful crap!
Isn't it as specialty team for a reason?
Can't pass MFF, booted from the Q-Course! Sorry about that.
There is also the issues of catch up for the group guys that have been "carrying the water" up until now.
Not to mention the issue of maintaining currency in both MFF and static line.
This is a recipe for disaster.
While we are at it, lets make every SF Soldier a Sniper, who is Mountain qualified, SOTIC/SAFARTIC qualified and a level 3 combative instructor. Before it's over, the Soldier will train for 4 years before stepping foot on a team.
At the same time isn't the Army slashing budgets?
Who comes up with these COBI's (Commanding Officer's Bright Ideas)?
Just my $0.02,
sf
Old Dog New Trick
10-05-2012, 22:09
I believe it would make a lot more sense to reactivate the lost (ghost) teams/Bn than try and make this an SFQC wide qualification.
In fact, I could see this viable for only two to three teams per company maximum and even that would be a logistical and certification nightmare. Also being quite costly to maintain. Maybe get back one team/company and call that success.
I wonder if Major Branch is only looking for the 20% solution by asking for the impossible 100% dream?
Being a SL and MFF JM I never spent one day on a MFF team. There was always hope and people trying but at the time there were decreasing opportunities as teams and personnel were shifted elsewhere due to budget cuts and an ever decreasing viability of ever conducting a MFF infiltration during combat. There was already CAG and DEVGRU for DA/CT. Regular SF could not justify what they had then and I don't know how they are going to justify this in the future.
I was able to stay current in both forms for several years and often was an asset to the MFF guys simply because I was a JM. It was a strange partnership for sure, but if I had not "lucked" into the open JM slot I doubt very much I could have ever stayed current on MFF with optempo and JCETs for my team.
It would be awesome if this could happen but at what cost to other capabilities? I remember the HALO Teams having a difficult time just maintaining proficiency every year, can't imagine multiplying that times X number.
blue02hd
10-06-2012, 03:22
I blame the movie "Act of Valor" for this. Damn SEALS strike again,,,, is there no end to their manipulative ways?
Last hard class
10-06-2012, 04:54
I understand a new directive was just released.
Effective immediately, all Prima donna Sky God marked items will now be considered contraband.
This includes MFF T-shirts, hats, team coins and of course, coffee mugs.
The S-4 at your local turn in point will reissue you the new approved:
Navin Johnson
“ Average run of the mill bastard”
T-shirts, hats, team coins and coffee mugs.
For you FOG’s who feel like someone just stole your mojo, we have a couple of slots open on the Catalina bubblehead team (we cross over from one side of the bar to the other after every beer). Same old story: Couldn’t fill the slots back in the day, still can’t fill them today.:D
LHC
longrange1947
10-06-2012, 07:28
I understand a new directive was just released.
Effective immediately, all Prima donna Sky God marked items will now be considered contraband.
This includes MFF T-shirts, hats, team coins and of course, coffee mugs.
The S-4 at your local turn in point will reissue you the new approved:
Navin Johnson
“ Average run of the mill bastard”
T-shirts, hats, team coins and coffee mugs.
For you FOG’s who feel like someone just stole your mojo, we have a couple of slots open on the Catalina bubblehead team (we cross over from one side of the bar to the other after every beer). Same old story: Couldn’t fill the slots back in the day, still can’t fill them today.:D
LHC
No feelings of stolen "MOJO", plenty of feelings of stupidity and stolen common sense. :mad:
Not every SF qual'ed guy passes MFF. But they are still good troops. NOW we are going to play the game of "if you can't pass this seldom used infil technique, then we are going to dump you from the Q". This makes sense, since we are over populated now with Q qual'ed guys. :munchin
I got the impression that maybe the static line proficiency requirements would eventually be replaced with a freefall proficiency requirement.
Eagle5US
10-06-2012, 08:25
I got the impression that maybe the static line proficiency requirements would eventually be replaced with a freefall proficiency requirement.
The increase in equipment alone would be prohibitive. As it is now - there is a significant shortage of MFFJM's and even getting a chute not being on a team is a significant challenge. Add weather at altitude restrictions that routinely scrub the MFF pass -
It simply isn't doable "safely"...1 MFF jump a quarter is really pushing it when it comes to being able to adequately drive your canopy and land. Figure guys are going to Holly-rock as often as possible, then the 1 time every 2-3 years (8-10 jumps) they are forced to jump a ruck it is going to be a true safety challenge.
In April, 1970, our MFF class had two Asian Indian officers that, routinely, opened their chutes upon exit from the aircraft, regardless of altitude. Needless to say they traveled a long, long way from the drop zone and finding them was a pain the ass. However they graduated, as I recall, and years later when HAHO was described, I always thought back to those two and wondered if they were testing a theory.
"The first week will remain the same, consisting of vertical wind tunnel body stabilization training"
Wind tunnels were not available to us then, 1970, and getting stable is what you did on the way down after one day of laying on a table and practicing body positions. :lifter
Spec4
MFF class # 4-70
I got the impression that maybe the static line proficiency requirements would eventually be replaced with a freefall proficiency requirement.
I don't think that you can get away from static line entirely, due to the need to jump/teach/train with HN counterparts on JCETs, etc.
From the press release, I see that HAHO is part of the curriculum. In my day HAHO was a working theory. My question is when did HAHO transition from an "advanced skill" to part of the standard course and when did HAHO operations become common on the teams?
Good question, it all depended on whose driving the train on that MFF team with experience and training. I really didn't start driving that train until I went to ATIC since ATIC qualifies you to do more than just being a MFF JM.
Equipment and logistics will be a huge issue.
Bn riggers only have 36 chutes and that's provided that all chutes are up (yeah right). Last Archangel, 7th and 5th Group guys didn't have enough chutes to do 3 jumps a day and had to stop the blade time in order to do repacks while we had 3 chutes and were able to continue training while the other guys had to stop and pack.
Like I stated...36 chutes, the riggers will need to get more rigs, more Cypress, more o2 bottles, more POM masks....etc...those are pretty expensive.
The school house will need to increase the number of MFF JM slots and how will guys who are not on MFF ODA's get around the regs in order to go to MFF JM? One needs 50 jumps AND one year status on a MFF Team.
Old Dog New Trick
10-06-2012, 10:46
One of my most memorable jumps was the HAHO over the Colorado River some twelve to fourteen miles (IIRC) from the DZ. It was a crisp clear morning and the sun was just rising over the desert to our east. Being under canopy for close to 40-minutes (IIRC) listening to almost nothing but the wind slicing through the risers and canopy was one of the best jumps I ever got to do. :D
Slamming into the DZ a few nights later on a night O2 equipment jump was one of the worst landings I ever got to do. :eek: But it was my fault, I choose landing on the edge of the DZ as opposed to coming up short in the rocks and cactus. It was a hard PLF.
The school house will need to increase the number of MFF JM slots and how will guys who are not on MFF ODA's get around the regs in order to go to MFF JM? One needs 50 jumps AND one year status on a MFF Team.
Unless the reg has been rewritten under the last SWC Cdr with a name that started with a "P". The requirements were SL JM, 50 MFF jumps, and one year on MFF status. The jumps or the MFF status could be waived. There was never a requirement to be on an MFF Team as a Pre-Req.
I don't think that you can get away from static line entirely, due to the need to jump/teach/train with HN counterparts on JCETs, etc.
We may be getting away from this as well. Since they went to the new parachutes.. all the HN counterparts still jump T10s and MC1 series parachutes.. Guess what you can't mix on an A/C and whose not allowed to breath on the old parachutes.
Unless the reg has been rewritten under the last SWC Cdr with a name that started with a "P". The requirements were SL JM, 50 MFF jumps, and one year on MFF status. The jumps or the MFF status could be waived. There was never a requirement to be on an MFF Team as a Pre-Req.
Are waivers getting approved now? I tried getting waivers back in 2010 and was told that since that my guys didn't have enough HAHO's that they were denied. One of my guy had 49 jumps and the other had 10 months on status.
Ret10Echo
10-06-2012, 17:39
Not every SF qual'ed guy passes MFF. But they are still good troops.
That first jump is a significant emotional event for everyone. Doesn't matter how big of a stud you are..(sorry guys). Everyone manages it a little differently. Some manage it by shutting down...then the nice man in the gray jumpsuit gets to earn his pay.... Doesn't mean that same guy isn't who you would want next to you when things go to crap during a mission... Just means he wasn't mean to jump out of an aircraft at high altitude.
R10
MFFI-468
Team Sergeant
10-07-2012, 08:30
That's OK, after a few "HANO"s and they will stop all training and re-think the idea of making MFF school a part of general selection.
It was difficult keeping an active duty MFF team up to speed and current, just wait until they have thousands of guys needing a MFF jump on a monthly basis.......
It's all fun and games until the team sergeant says we're only doing full combat night jumps from 12.5 or higher......;)
Are waivers getting approved now? I tried getting waivers back in 2010 and was told that since that my guys didn't have enough HAHO's that they were denied. One of my guy had 49 jumps and the other had 10 months on status.
I don't remember HAHOs being a requirement for the waiver. Then again, 2010 was during the era of the "P" guy... and we all know what happened there.. No waivers were granted, and we suffered as a Regiment.
The problem will be that the huge push of students through MFF is unsustainable to support at the Group level. Gee, really great that you're MFF, go jump a rope...
Hell, we were down to 1 Paid Team per Bn in the 90's and early 2000's..
Old Dog New Trick
10-07-2012, 12:26
Once upon a clear day in New Mexico while working with AFSOF fixed (MC-130) and rotary wing platforms for infil/exfil techniques. Our team was going to do a CCT supported SL (MC-1-1C) jump. To make it more interesting for the CCT guys and CARP programmer we threw out a drop altitude of 3,500' AGL. :cool:
The CARP calculation was spot on. All the more experienced guys on the team that were also JMs (four of us and two of us MFF trained) steered our parachutes to the IP and landed within a hundred feet or so of each other in a circle around the cone. As the experience level decreased so did the corresponding increase in distance from the IP go up. We had guys spread out for over half a mile.
I bring this up because even in the advent someone saying we could go SL MC-5s (HAHO) the training to control a high-speed canopy in flight would overwhelm a majority of team guys during daylight. The dangers of mid air entanglements would skyrocket with resulting numbers of deaths and injuries. Turn out the lights and I doubt very much I'd want to be involved in that operation.
As TS says, once the Team Sgt says all jumps will be at night with equipment the skill level and pucker factor goes up. It was hard enough to keep one team proficient and the costs were high at the demise of other SF skills.
The costs, hazard, and risk of mission failure don't outweigh the fact that helicopters have become so good they were chosen over a practical MFF infil for the UBL raid. As another recent example, ST6 didn't need to jump MFF into the Indian Ocean to rescue the Captain of the MAERSK, a SL over the horizon water jump would have been just as effective at 1:10 the cost of all that equipment sitting at the bottom of the ocean. But I'm sure it was cool. :cool:
longrange1947
10-08-2012, 18:15
From what I have heard and understand, from SEALs in some cases, many are not dive nor MFF proficient. Too much time practicing door knocking. They started their own MFF school and it has had "problems" as well.
My gripe is not just resources in time and equipment, but personnel in which some damn fine SF personnel cannot and never will get flat dumb and happy. So what do you do, throw them out because of an infil technique? Just plain stupid, especially one that is seldom used.
But the number of SF is greater than the number of all other Special Operations units combined. The other units make do with their MFF elitism, SF does not need that nonsense.
Peregrino
10-08-2012, 18:26
Personally I'm going to have another W2O (drink) and not worry overmuch about something that's unlikely to survive beyond the test phase. A couple classes will go through the motions and then the big budget study will get released and we'll go to three MFF ODAs per SFG(A). For those of you who weren't paying attention the first time - I did not stutter. Money is going away and we have more important things to spend it on than "keeping up with the SEALs".
(I told them how to fix it - make everyone who wants to go to MFF pass CDQC first. They didn't like that answer at all. :rolleyes:)
longrange1947
10-08-2012, 18:45
I like that answer, will see who's head is in the right place. :munchin :D
Old Dog New Trick
10-08-2012, 20:58
So you QPs keep mentioning about how difficult it is to maintain proficiency just for an MFF team, so I was curious, but how do the Navy SEALs manage it, because in addition to that they also have to maintain proficiency in combat diving, right?
Sheer numbers game. As was said by Longrange1947, an SF Group or two probably has as many people as the rest of SOF combined (less the Ranger Bn's). Our budgets have always been shared with the regular Army to a degree. The SEALs and PJ's hardly compute in their respective services.
One more point I'd like make. That is if jumping out of airplanes is a life blood, and being top notch proficient a requirement. I doubt very much I'd have had the failure rate of SL Jump Masters at the course I ran. Some people are great at what they do but that doesn't mean they should be responsible for others. MFF is not "Skydiving" and it's not for everyone. It's probably better that way.
I don't remember HAHOs being a requirement for the waiver. Then again, 2010 was during the era of the "P" guy... and we all know what happened there.. No waivers were granted, and we suffered as a Regiment.
The problem will be that the huge push of students through MFF is unsustainable to support at the Group level. Gee, really great that you're MFF, go jump a rope...
Hell, we were down to 1 Paid Team per Bn in the 90's and early 2000's..
That's true of the "P". HAHO is not a requirement but I was told that the reason was that the next class for MFF JM would be ATIC and MFF JM's not having HAHO experience would have a hard time in ATIC.
Speaking as an ATIC Grad, I do agree that a MFF JM does need HAHO experience along with ATIC TTPs in order to be successful in ATIC. Teams who don't have ATIC grads will be behind the power curve compared to teams who have ATIC grads.
blue02hd
10-09-2012, 03:39
(I told them how to fix it - make everyone who wants to go to MFF pass CDQC first. They didn't like that answer at all. :rolleyes:)
Whoa whoa WHOA!! That escalated quickly!
No reason to get sadistic,, were amongst friends.
That's true of the "P". HAHO is not a requirement but I was told that the reason was that the next class for MFF JM would be ATIC and MFF JM's not having HAHO experience would have a hard time in ATIC.
Speaking as an ATIC Grad, I do agree that a MFF JM does need HAHO experience along with ATIC TTPs in order to be successful in ATIC. Teams who don't have ATIC grads will be behind the power curve compared to teams who have ATIC grads.
Just shaking my head in disgust..:rolleyes:
They just started this ATIC course within the last 3 years.. oh, the bright idea studs are at it again..... Hello, it takes 5-10 years for us to catch up everytime some new course is invented....
I'm hoping the other bases are not like Ft Bragg with the severe restrictions, where one can actually do a stand off jump off the reservation and then land on a DZ on post..
Eagle5US
10-09-2012, 16:50
RELEASE NUMBER: 121009-02
DATE POSTED: OCTOBER 9, 2012
Special Forces Qualification Course to incorporate military free-fall training
FORT BRAGG, N.C. (Oct. 4, 2012) - In today's global environment, areas of conflict are becoming increasingly difficult for military forces to access. Through advances in technology, tactics and training, potential adversaries are prepared to prevent unwanted forces' physical presence, and the U.S. military must adapt to face these challenges.
A collective military free-fall, or MFF, capability throughout the Army's Special Forces regiment will ensure the U.S. Army's unconventional warfare force can effectively enter and perform within the operational areas of today and tomorrow.
Traditional forced-entry techniques such as low-altitude, static-line airborne operations have lost viability as a clandestine entry technique, especially in special-operations missions where silence and accuracy are crucial to mission success. Discreet, low-visibility free-fall infiltration complements the mission and structure of a Special Forces operational detachment-alpha, or ODA.
As a 12-man unit armed with the cultural and tactical expertise to work alongside a partner force, one ODA is small enough to maintain its MFF qualification, and use the capability to enter a remote area where a larger, conventional Army presence would not be feasible, necessary or cost-effective.
As written in the Department of Defense's Joint Operational Access Concept dated Jan. 17, 2012, "Operational access does not exist for its own sake, but rather serves our broader strategic goals. Joint forces must be able to project military force into any operational area … This is not a new challenge, but it is one that U.S. joint forces have not been called upon to face in recent decades. That condition is likely change, and may prove to be of critical importance in the coming years."
To meet this challenge, the Special Forces Regiment has re-evaluated its training methodology to ensure its Soldiers have an expansive skill set to meet the demands of our current and future operational environment. This reevaluation has established that while Army Special Forces units do include select MFF-capable ODAs, the force lacks a formal, wide-spread clandestine infiltration capability; such that would be available through regiment-wide military free-fall qualification.
To improve the U.S. Army Special Forces Command (Airborne) units' proficiency in MFF, the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School is prepared to incorporate military free-fall training into the Special Forces Qualification Course, or SFQC. This initiative will increase the regiment's collective forced-entry and global response capabilities.
This initiative will institutionalize MFF operations by investing in the Military Free-Fall School at Yuma Proving Ground in Yuma, Ariz., which is the U.S. Special Operations Command's proponent for military free fall.
The school is restructuring the Military Free Fall Parachutist Course, or MFFPC, so that it will offer sufficient annual training slots for all SFQC candidates while maintaining allocated slots for qualified Special Forces personnel already assigned to operational units. Beginning in February 2013, the MFFPC will transition from a four-week to a three-week course.
The first week will remain the same, consisting of vertical wind tunnel body stabilization training, MC-4 parachute packing and an introduction to MFF operations. The remaining two weeks will encompass a jump profile of three airborne operations per training iteration, totaling 30 MFF operations per course encompassing various conditions and equipment loads.
In fiscal year 2013, SWCS plans to host up to 358 Special Forces Soldiers through the MFFPC. By fiscal year 2015, with the addition of 18 MFF instructors and dedicated aircraft, the MFFPC will reach its optimal throughput of 1,026 MFF parachutists, including 766 Special Forces Soldiers. When fully manned and equipped, the Military Free Fall School will conduct 19 MFFPC classes each fiscal year with 54 students in each class.
Simultaneously, the MFFPC continues to evolve its program of instruction, or curriculum, to send the highest-quality MFF parachutist into the military's special-operations forces. The course incorporates the use of body-armor carriers and modular integrated communications helmets as the baseline equipment load for all jumps. Instructors use this communications technology to interact with their MFFPC students while under canopy to foster proper canopy-control techniques. As a result, MFFPC graduates are capable of landing as a group on a designated point, fully prepared to execute follow-on missions.
The Special Forces Regiment ability to train and sustain a MFF infiltration capability, which is critical to forced-entry operations, is not only completely possible, but can become the norm vice the exception. In addition to the vertical wind tunnel at Fort Bragg, a new vertical wind tunnel at the MFF School in Yuma is projected for completion in the fall of 2013. Furthermore, the latest technological advancements have been incorporated into MFF equipment, such as night-vision, high-glide canopies, on-demand oxygen systems, inter-team MFF communications and para-navigation equipment. Most importantly, 11 years of multiple MFF combat infiltrations by the operational force have left us with invaluable lessons, which have been incorporated into MFF training and procedures.
High-altitude, high-opening, known as HAHO, operations now encompass nearly 50 percent of the jumps conducted by students during the MFFPC.
As the MFF School transforms the MFFPC to meet the evolving needs of the operational force, the school's cadre will continue to conduct the Military Free Fall Jumpmaster Course, the Military Free Fall Advanced Tactical Infiltration Course and the Military Free Fall Instructor Course. All MFF courses are continually updated to ensure the safest and most relevant MFF tactics and techniques are addressed. Through innovation and a relentless desire to excel, the school fully prepared to provide an overwhelming infiltration capability to the regiment, one required to gain entrance to tomorrow's areas of operation.
Tomorrow's battlefields will not reappear in a linear or predictable manner. Now is the time to build a collective MFF capability across the Army's Special Forces groups, so that all Soldiers wearing a green beret are more capable of clandestinely entering into denied territory. The SWCS MFF expansion will meet this need by providing the regiment with SFQC graduates who are ready to conduct military free-fall operations immediately upon reporting to their first ODA assignment.
The Special Forces Regiment, armed with a collective MFF capability, will maintain its ability to gain access to operational areas around the world and serve the United States as its premier unconventional warfare force.
The U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School is responsible for special-operations training, leader development, doctrine and proponency for the U.S. Army's Civil Affairs, Psychological Operations and Special Forces Soldiers.
So-
More folks going to more classes with 1 week less training and a goal of 30 jumps with progression.
longrange1947
10-09-2012, 17:14
Sounds like a bridge too far. Resources will tear them up. Or they will steal from the other courses to "make it happen" and then all will suffer. :munchin
Old Dog New Trick
10-09-2012, 17:22
I almost wish I didn't have a great paying job right now. :)
Looks like there will be new opportunities for retired MFF JMs to find a fun but demanding job in Yuma. :D
And so the big green wheel turns, the Good Idea Fairy comes up from the mud, throws some shit around and the wheel slowly turns grinding the fairy back into the mud.
So "dem's dat get recycled be da lucky un's" - said in my best Long John Silver's voice.
Anyway, back in the day we had three HALO and three SCUBA teams per Bn we just kept the teams full - say 10 - 11 with one away in school. Get 100% and somebody PCSed or ETSed.
Both teams could maintain minimum proficiency but it was a scramble to go anywhere beyond that for a sustained period of time. It took cooperation from the Bn Staff and if they had other plans you were shut down.
Last pass on the chopper fun jump or blowing bubbles in the local lake don't keep you up to snuff for a night O2 C/E jump or paraSCUBA jump/rubber duck/SUBOP.
There is going to be a lot of happy troops in the short run - but mighty frustrated ones in the long slow grind.
1stindoor
10-10-2012, 06:27
The other issue is that the groups can't sustain all of the chutes necessary to maintain profficiency. There'll be a lot of MFF qual'd guys not getting another HALO jump once they settle into the grind at group. There's only so many that can get on a jump that are on a non-paid, permissive set of orders, status...hmmm, I wonder how many soldiers in that status are in HHC, Bn and Group staff...or in command?
Santo Tomas
10-10-2012, 11:05
They should have done this a long time ago, IMHO.
The Reaper
10-10-2012, 16:54
They should have done this a long time ago, IMHO.
Why?
It is unsustainable, in manpower, equipment, airlift, dollars, and training time, and is only going to get worse with the coming budget cuts.
TR
longrange1947
10-10-2012, 19:57
They should have done this a long time ago, IMHO.
What is the basis for your humble opinion???? You surely do not understand resources.
BMT (RIP)
10-11-2012, 03:02
I think TR hit the nail on the head.
How many C-130's would it take to support this change??
BMT
Ret10Echo
10-11-2012, 05:11
I think TR hit the nail on the head.
How many C-130's would it take to support this change??
BMT
BMT,
Speaking from a certain level of ignorance on the details... Assuming that the reduction in the course would preclude HAHO operations and stick to fundamentals.
Prior to getting people to the Groups:
The support is pretty varied, along with the personnel requirement...from the instructor requirements within the Training Group (How long does it take to get someone through AMFFPC and certified or are these civilians...which is another point of contention). Strudent/Instructor ratios, availability of gear at the schoolhouse...number of parachute riggers, facilities for storage, packing...etc...etc.. If the "old" (new) training method is in play then wind-tunnel maintenance grows...airframe demand increases and anyone who has been out there understands the feast-or-famine that can occur with airlift and weather...
Not to mention what happens to the current program that is Army-run but jointly staffed and attended? The Navy has struck out on their own but I would suggest that the intent and methods used there are (shall we say) "different".
Still scratching my head on the purpose and intent of the change.
R10
1stindoor
10-11-2012, 07:50
Still scratching my head on the purpose and intent of the change.
R10
MOO...because it gives you braggin' rights when you can point and say, "Look what I did."
longrange1947
10-11-2012, 15:54
MOO...because it gives you braggin' rights when you can point and say, "Look what I did."
Ahhhhh, the OER check block! Now I understand. :munchin :D
Well I feel a lot of people are looking at what teh SEALs are doing, adding Language to both Enlisted and Officer branches for SEAL training. But if you look at SEAL and their Halo training.. it's mostly done at the unit level, contracted out in the West and East Coast. Then they don;t keep up with their own profficiency and only the SEAL Platoons or Team that is on a mission that requires that SEAL unit to possibly conduct a HALO jump to train up for that deployment. Now look at how big a SEAL Team (Company) is and how many there are in NSW. Now look at what USASFC has for number and rescources to NSW. NSW has SEAL Teams and SBT and their Navy special warfare combatant-craft crewmen (SWCC) that are HALO qualified?? Numbers don't add up.
Yes I see it too as a OER bullet that someone will take and then someone else will bite and that bullet won't work.
Waste of time, man-hours, and money just in the "can we do it". Seem slike another great SWC idea. Just like the 8-Sage classes a year. How long did that go on for. Why did it stop?? BLUF- Resourcing!!
We need to put money into things that will make this Regiment better. Stop with MFF in the SFQC and look at funding for what we are really short on and hurting at.
I say something here but it would take this into a different direction. SO I won't!
Old Dog New Trick
10-11-2012, 18:48
Something not said...Concept of Intent?
It is possible and it is practical to train everyone to be SL and MFF qualified. While SL jump qualified is a prerequisite for SFQC, MFF should not be a pass/fail...we should make CDQC an alternate route available for being really special. Throw in OTC, SOTIC, and some acronyms I forget while we are at it.
Schoolhouse training for between 18-36 months with a minimum five-year obligation to the teams' after completion.
If you really want to become a GB you will strive to get through it - whatever - that is. If you fail, you fail, see ya'. Then, when you get to your first team, or battalion you will be qualified to go where needed the most at the time. If you don't get on a HALO team or a Dive Team, you can strive to get there on your own. Everyone is W7, W8, or in some cases W9, and now it's up to them to stay current, qualified, and proficient. Most will not, and that is not the fault of the Group, Battalion or Company. Minimal extra expense and resources available.
After awhile, only the really dedicated will work hard enough to make it happen.
If in the event of a truly needed requirement to insert an "un-certified" team into denied areas by use of HALO or HAHO or SCUBA, then it takes less time and money to "train up" than to start from scratch with nothing.
The same "Risk Analysis" will be used to insert a fully qualified team as one that is "Hopefully This all Works Out" but, we don't have a choice...
JMO
So, not to point out the obvious...
During the drawdown in the 90's, we went from 3 MFF and 3 DIVE teams per BN to one of each per BN. Why, Funding dried up........ hmmmmmn, what is a big part of this current drawdown???? Oh wow, look they are cutting funding again...
This will be one of the first things we cut, in order to try and save the rest. We'll be lucky if we don't lose an SF Group (history tends to repeat itself), but just the 4th BNs.
69harley
10-12-2012, 06:08
Nobody has mentioned the wind tunnel on Bragg being down. Expected to take 6-9 months for the repairs to be completed. USASFC released a sole source to contract with the wind tunnel place in Reaford. Seems logical. But what if that wind tunnel was not available?
Team Sergeant
10-12-2012, 08:36
Nobody has mentioned the wind tunnel on Bragg being down. Expected to take 6-9 months for the repairs to be completed. USASFC released a sole source to contract with the wind tunnel place in Reaford. Seems logical. But what if that wind tunnel was not available?
You mean the Golden Knights wind tunnel? :munchin
longrange1947
10-12-2012, 08:50
You mean the Golden Knights wind tunnel? :munchin
Aren't we getting snarky today. I about lost a mouthful of coffee on that one. :D
Santo Tomas
01-01-2013, 10:18
What is the basis for your humble opinion???? You surely do not understand resources.
My apologies for not getting back to this sooner. I saw another article bring this to light again.
In simple terms, anything that will give the team another option or tool in the kit bag I am for. If this will give the team guy that extra bit of confidence to get across the hurdle I say go for it.
Longrange says I don't understand resources. What I do understand is that I deal with MDEPs, SAG money and the Army PPBS every day. I think I do know Army funding and resources. I'm not so sure you do.
Bottom line here is that if the command wants it, they will get it. They may very well need to cut something else (I have few ideas) to get it OR they may magically get the additional funds to execute it. There is a lot of give and take here. Just depends on how much one wants to bend.
......Longrange says I don't understand resources. What I do understand is that I deal with MDEPs, SAG money and the Army PPBS every day. I think I do know Army funding and resources. I'm not so sure you do............
ST - the main folks talking in this thread were around in the days when each battalion had 3 HALO Teams and 3 SCUBA Teams. We do understand the problems the folks in the Companies will have. Much less the 18 series assigned outside the Groups.
You're fixing to have a great many folks with the badge but little air time.
My apologies for not getting back to this sooner. I saw another article bring this to light again.
In simple terms, anything that will give the team another option or tool in the kit bag I am for. If this will give the team guy that extra bit of confidence to get across the hurdle I say go for it.
Longrange says I don't understand resources. What I do understand is that I deal with MDEPs, SAG money and the Army PPBS every day. I think I do know Army funding and resources. I'm not so sure you do.
Bottom line here is that if the command wants it, they will get it. They may very well need to cut something else (I have few ideas) to get it OR they may magically get the additional funds to execute it. There is a lot of give and take here. Just depends on how much one wants to bend.
From what I understand, and have heard (I'm up in the "White Elephant", CDID, formerly DOT-D) It was a SWC(S) idea, and they sold it to USASOC...
Of course, those regimes are not here anymore, but it is still gonna be implemented.
Used to be "incentive" to make it to a specialty team. Oh...How many MFF ops have been conducted???...latey??one that we know of..
anyway, above my pay grade no doubt...we'll see what happens..
Hmmm, not much bang for the buck here...
Santo Tomas
01-01-2013, 15:27
I understand the problems the companies will have. And agreed, above my pay grade as well.
I know I am not a QP and you guys hate the whole 'my buddy said' thing. But before my buddy entered Sage I ask him about MFF and he said as of right now every other Q-Course class, group or whatever (I don't know the exact name), is going to HALO or MFF.
ZonieDiver
01-15-2013, 14:59
I know I am not a QP and you guys hate the whole 'my buddy said' thing. But before my buddy entered Sage I ask him about MFF and he said as of right now every other Q-Course class, group or whatever (I don't know the exact name), is going to HALO or MFF.
You know "we guys" hate this, yet you cannot resist doing it anyway. Hmmmm.
We used to have a special definition for 'buddy'...
You know "we guys" hate this, yet you cannot resist doing it anyway. Hmmmm.
We used to have a special definition for 'buddy'...
Ahhh... the Blue Falcon strikes again!
69harley
01-15-2013, 15:20
I know I am not a QP and you guys hate the whole 'my buddy said' thing. But before my buddy entered Sage I ask him about MFF and he said as of right now every other Q-Course class, group or whatever (I don't know the exact name), is going to HALO or MFF.
If what this guy's buddy says is true, I can see students jockying and manuvering to get rolled back a class or three (into a HALO class). Good grief.
If what this guy's buddy says is true, I can see students jockying and manuvering to get rolled back a class or three (into a HALO class). Good grief.
I have no reason to believe he would lie to me, absolutely no gain from it, so I would lean towards it being true. But that being said it doesn't really seem to be a big deal seeing as soon enough everyone going through the Q-Course will be going through MFF.
............ . But that being said it doesn't really seem to be a big deal seeing as soon enough everyone going through the Q-Course will be going through MFF.
No Big Deal - except to those last few in the "in between" classes.
69harley
01-15-2013, 16:23
....and to the guys that are currently on teams, with MFF packets submitted and waiting on a seat in a class.
When an x-ray shows up with MFF wings, well, I don't think that is right. I think that everyone currently on a team with a submitted packet should go to MFF before any Q student.
Hmmm, not much bang for the buck here...
Keeps the StaBrite ffolkes in business. :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
ha...
I have had three different guys show up in my company over the last 6 months that said "my class was going to be the first ones to do MFF in the pipeline"
...yet NONE of them have MFF wings
Basenshukai
01-15-2013, 20:14
....and to the guys that are currently on teams, with MFF packets submitted and waiting on a seat in a class.
When an x-ray shows up with MFF wings, well, I don't think that is right. I think that everyone currently on a team with a submitted packet should go to MFF before any Q student.
If it was even possible, they'd likely do it by attrition (like SERE Level C). Over the years, the ones that didn't have the skill set would be few.
69harley
01-15-2013, 20:33
Will also add that years ago I heard talk that Q course students that had graduated from Ranger School were not going to have to go through SUT. That was funny.
Last hard class
01-15-2013, 21:54
I know I am not a QP and you guys hate the whole 'my buddy said' thing. But before my buddy entered Sage...
If what this guy's buddy says is true...
Too funny!
HNEP: I think you may be missing the bigger picture. However, if during an emergency the actual SF grapevine were to break down, I for one sleep better knowing your whisper is at the ready. Keep up the good work.
LHC
Too funny!
HNEP: I think you may be missing the bigger picture. However, if during an emergency the actual SF grapevine were to break down, I for one sleep better knowing your whisper is at the ready. Keep up the good work.
LHC
I do what I can. ;)
Surgicalcric
01-15-2013, 22:27
I do what I can. ;)
Then go do PT...
ZonieDiver
01-16-2013, 09:03
Then go do PT...
Lots and lots of PT... the 'end of January' is almost upon us.
Oh, and tell your 'buddy' to do more PT, too! Snuffies!
poundpavement
03-26-2013, 15:41
I have read through the message chain regarding MFF and have given some thought to consistent reply coming from the more seasoned contributors such as "Reaper". Paraphrasing, many feel that incorporating MFF is a needless drain on limited resources for a capabilities gain that will have a marginal benefit on battlefield. Playing the devils advocate, I cant help but wonder if this topic is being looked at too analytically, and if tangential issues are being ignored.
Firstly, I think it will draw a higher caliber individual. I know this is a bold statement, but based upon my experience being in the army, all be it limited, most guys that enlisted with the intention to go SF were contemplating either SF or SEALs. And while it is true you don't want a bunch of guys enlisting thinking they will be ninjas, the fact of the matter is most a-type personality guys want to be doing the most high speed stuff that the government has to offer. While language and culture training will draw a more mature individual, I'm certain that there are physically strong and mature individuals going to other SOF units that would have gone SF had certain carrots such as MFF been available on a more widespread basis (such as part of the q-course).
Secondly, while the quiet professionals have consistently maintained the deserved respect from their peers by avoiding the limelight, doing so may perversely have an indirect negative effect on their capabilities. The House Committee on Armed Services (who ultimately determine our budget) are made up primarily of individuals with no military service whatsoever, while I don't have specific figures for the committee, fewer than 20% of the members of the House have served in the military down from over 80% in the 1970's. This is pertinent because these individuals drink much of the same cool-aid that feeds the american public regarding special operations capabilities, and thanks to various forms of media, they get greater exposure to our Naval counterparts than to SF, and I feel that our respective budget differentials reflect this. Im not suggesting that we start making movies with active duty Green Berets, but I wonder if "sexing up" what we do a little and taking a few cues from the SEALs PR machine might make SF more apt to get a larger piece of the Special Operations pie.
I know this may be somewhat controversial, but Im very interested to hear others opinions both for and against this train of thought.
Masturbating furiously to grainy internet porn left over from the 70's is more exciting than continuing to pretend there is any thing beyond a "How come the Navy and Air Force have a 100% MFF qualification, why dont we" reason behind this entire MFF non-pipeline.
However; to toss in my two cents about your other query...
Secondly, while the quiet professionals have consistently maintained the deserved respect from their peers by avoiding the limelight, doing so may perversely have an indirect negative effect on their capabilities.
...there is no such 'perverse indirect negative effect'. The folks in DC that pay our bills know EXACTLY who they want doing the job we do. The folks competing with us for budget dollars, DO NOT want to compete for the job that we REALLY do. They want the money, but not the job that goes with it.
If the budget only gives us 49 rounds per man of 5.56 to do BRM and qualify, WE will pull it off.
..in fact, I know lots of folks that could make those 49 rounds last for a week, and go home Friday afternoon with EVERYONE qualifying with their primary weapon. Most of those "in the limelight" will be out of ammo by lunchtime monday, pissed off that some bean counter suggested they go to the range with less than two magazines per man.
No sirree, We dont need to take "cues" from the SEAL PR machine...
...all my guys needs are 49 bullets per man, and access to some real estate and we'll be just fine. Money doesn't give you a capability; knowledge, experience, and willpower is where capability comes from and no PR machine can spin "capability" no matter how hard they try.
...just my two cents, I could be wrong.
Firstly, I think it will draw a higher caliber individual.
Funniest thing I've read lately. :D
Richard :munchin
Trapper John
03-27-2013, 07:57
I was wondering if someone at the policy level isn't thinking ahead a bit. Where's the next major theater - Africa. That's a big F'n place. How do you insert teams in remote areas of Africa. We have limited bases to launch Chinooks and then there is the range problem. My guess is someone is seeing carrier launched or airfield launched (where we actually have bases or allies with bases) C130s and HALO insertions as a viable alternative. Ergo teams need to be HALO qualified.
Any comments from the pros on this. Just a thought from the peanut gallery :D
poundpavement
03-27-2013, 08:08
Good points billy, thanks for the reply
Badger52
03-27-2013, 08:31
Firstly, I think it will draw a higher caliber individual. I know this is a bold statement, but based upon my experience being in the army, albeit limited, most guys that enlisted with the intention to go SF were contemplating either SF or SEALs. And while it is true you don't want a bunch of guys enlisting thinking they will be ninjas, the fact of the matter is most a-type personality guys want to be doing the most high speed stuff that the government has to offer.I'm only coming from the perspective of someone who was initially influenced by a President, a periodical, a book and the thought of growing an army of little brown guys with some buddies so perhaps I see the history differently. The above sounds more to me like choices made by people on the relative merits of cool-stuff, versus a calling. Historically it seems to be the latter individual has tended to work out if you need to settle down an area, nation (or take over one).
While language and culture training will draw a more mature individual, ...Personally I think that's the guy you want. And I could be wrong but SF seems to have weathered these cycles over the long haul because of what they do & a capability that cannot be denied. Big Army stars that despise the word "special" still see civilian leadership call SF to do what they do, regardless of the percentage of "high speed stuff" classes their ranks have attended.
Trapper John's theater-related question is interesting, but that seems operational need vs. effort directed at attracting someone sitting on the fence.
I was wondering if someone at the policy level isn't thinking ahead a bit. Where's the next major theater - Africa. That's a big F'n place. How do you insert teams in remote areas of Africa. .........
Most of Africa is a big DZ/LZ. The parts that aren't you wouldn't want to drop a rough terrain team in.
HALO would be another tool in the tool box. It's use would be based on the mission and other requirements.
Basenshukai
03-27-2013, 08:53
Masturbating furiously to grainy internet porn left over from the 70's is more exciting than continuing to pretend there is any thing beyond a "How come the Navy and Air Force have a 100% MFF qualification, why dont we" reason behind this entire MFF non-pipeline.
However; to toss in my two cents about your other query...
...there is no such 'perverse indirect negative effect'. The folks in DC that pay our bills know EXACTLY who they want doing the job we do. The folks competing with us for budget dollars, DO NOT want to compete for the job that we REALLY do. They want the money, but not the job that goes with it.
If the budget only gives us 49 rounds per man of 5.56 to do BRM and qualify, WE will pull it off.
..in fact, I know lots of folks that could make those 49 rounds last for a week, and go home Friday afternoon with EVERYONE qualifying with their primary weapon. Most of those "in the limelight" will be out of ammo by lunchtime monday, pissed off that some bean counter suggested they go to the range with less than two magazines per man.
No sirree, We dont need to take "cues" from the SEAL PR machine...
...all my guys needs are 49 bullets per man, and access to some real estate and we'll be just fine. Money doesn't give you a capability; knowledge, experience, and willpower is where capability comes from and no PR machine can spin "capability" no matter how hard they try.
...just my two cents, I could be wrong.
I can appreciate your passion on this. Special Forces has maintained a self-sufficient quality that allows it to succeed even in times of adversity. But, let's be both pragmatic and realistic here: training SOF requires funds, lots of them. An SFODA oftentimes finds itself well separated from friendly forces areas of support and must, therefore, rely upon world-class skill sets that set them apart from the rest of the force. This is not a luxury, it's a mission requirement. Because, as you eluded to, SF can make it happen with only 49 rounds of 5.56mm. But, this implies that the SF Soldier will make every round count at distances well beyond what a "rank and file" Soldier comfortably engages. And, to attain this level of proficiency, an SF Soldier needs to fire thousands of round in training, from various weapon systems.
As one Chief Warrant Officer told me once "words mean things". Let's be sure of our message to higher when we speak. Can an SF Soldier operate in the most adverse conditions? Yes. Should he therefore train with little in the way of resources? No. The former's activities drives the necessity of the latter.
What is at issue - truly - is the EFFICIENT use of resources for training. But, no, I do not agree that SF should always be considered when it is time to cut funds, ammo, and necessary equipment simply because we can put up with it. Our guys have earned - through much blood spilled on the battlefield - the very best training and resources. The trick is to leverage those resources is a well thought-out manner so that we are squeezing every bit of goodness out of 49,000 rounds of 5.56mm, and NOT that we are satisfied with 49 rounds because we can.
longrange1947
03-27-2013, 13:24
........................................
While language and culture training will draw a more mature individual, I'm certain that there are physically strong and mature individuals going to other SOF units that would have gone SF had certain carrots such as MFF been available on a more widespread basis (such as part of the q-course).
......................................... (snip)
I know this may be somewhat controversial, but Im very interested to hear others opinions both for and against this train of thought.
If the only reason a DUDE comes to SF is for HALO, we don't want him and he will not be satisfied here. HALO is a means to the party, the party is the main issue.
MOO, with very limited resources, MFF in the pipe line is a giant waste of money period. :rolleyes:
Survival7201
03-27-2013, 13:33
I hesitate to interject, however MFF, Combat Dive, and the other specialty schools are method of travel. Once at the playground you have to be able to do something. SF has the tools, and if needed can go anywhere in the world, do the job when they get there. I can get there, but, will be standing with my thumb up ass, looking stupid waiting to be trained it ALL the other things needed.
Sincerely.
Ron
The MFFARAPS was selected with the Double Bag Static line capability being a REQUIRED component of the system.
...double bag static line.
Read that again: Double Bag Static Line.
We just committed about 30-50 million dollars over the next 10 years developing and preparing for the feilding of the MFFARAPS/RA-1 parachute and one of the game stopping design parameters was the requirement that the system could be jumped with a 'rope'
MFF qualification is not needed. Its purely a matter of measuring dick size with the USN and USAF. "We own the MFF school, why arent WE 100% MFF qualified?"
The USMC spent the better part of five years demonstrating that you dont need to have a MFF qualification to employ a DBSL capable system.
7th SFG proved it back in the 90's when they had support guys jumping the MC-5 out at Raeford DZ.
MFF is not a game stopper when you have a DBSL capability. We are spending money trying to qualify for a badge, what we are NOT doing is trying to figure out how to use our BRAND NEW parachute to meet a requirement and develop a capability. Smoke and Mirrors... we ALL need HALO wings because someone said so.
Maybe we should find someone that sat on the ARAPS selection board and see what they think about this silliness..................
Old Dog New Trick
03-27-2013, 16:56
I had to look that up Billy.
http://nsrdec.natick.army.mil/APBI/Parachutes/Army_-_Airdrop_FINAL.pdf
It would seem to me that you could teach a monkey to HAHO and all things "bad" happening, teaching someone to cut away and pull two handles isn't all that difficult.
You have the rest of your life to figure it out.
Someday, we're going to strap ourselves (whole team/squad/platoon) into a box and get slid off the ramp at any altitude and land softly on the ground. Completely computer controlled...
But I remember steel pots and helmet liners...:p
When I was attached to the ACE Board they had built a full-sized mockup "People Pod" for lapsing... Yes lapsing! There was all sorts of volunteers out of the 82d.
When I was attached to the ACE Board they had built a full-sized mockup "People Pod" for lapsing... Yes lapsing! There was all sorts of volunteers out of the 82d.
Must have been the late 70's.
I was over there getting ready for something or other about that time and they had that pod with a big ass cargo chute on it and dummies strapped into what looked like race car seats.
They explained it was for air dropping non-airborne folks into a DZ. Me and the others just rolled our eyes.
MK262MOD1
03-28-2013, 10:28
The MFFARAPS was selected with the Double Bag Static line capability being a REQUIRED component of the system.
...double bag static line.
Read that again: Double Bag Static Line.
We just committed about 30-50 million dollars over the next 10 years developing and preparing for the feilding of the MFFARAPS/RA-1 parachute and one of the game stopping design parameters was the requirement that the system could be jumped with a 'rope'
MFF qualification is not needed. Its purely a matter of measuring dick size with the USN and USAF. "We own the MFF school, why arent WE 100% MFF qualified?"
The USMC spent the better part of five years demonstrating that you dont need to have a MFF qualification to employ a DBSL capable system.
7th SFG proved it back in the 90's when they had support guys jumping the MC-5 out at Raeford DZ.
MFF is not a game stopper when you have a DBSL capability. We are spending money trying to qualify for a badge, what we are NOT doing is trying to figure out how to use our BRAND NEW parachute to meet a requirement and develop a capability. Smoke and Mirrors... we ALL need HALO wings because someone said so.
Maybe we should find someone that sat on the ARAPS selection board and see what they think about this silliness..................
A lot of great points Billy. I got a hands on with the new chute this week. It is a good system( at least I believe so ). We need to integrate and use it. Train ups for Non-MFF ODAs should use this system. DBSL
We need to stay proficient with rounds as well for the abilities they offer others. Can't teach it if you don't use it.
longrange1947
03-28-2013, 16:06
Must have been the late 70's.
I was over there getting ready for something or other about that time and they had that pod with a big ass cargo chute on it and dummies strapped into what looked like race car seats.
They explained it was for air dropping non-airborne folks into a DZ. Me and the others just rolled our eyes.
They played with one in the early 70s as well. It was to keep a team together on a small DZ. During a test run with dummy and sensors, no one "survived" due to a hard landing. Yep, my choice for keeping a team together on infil. :munchin :eek:
Update to this is they're sending a hand full of guys per class (sent a few to CDQC as well) but its far from 100%/mandatory - dont count on it
I hope so, it's not even a USASFC requirement...truly a SWC inspired ..."good idea"...
Last CoC though...same guy who ...nevermind...
What's up with the hard on for guard guys who have hard slots? My TL went two months ago and was hemmed up for his physical for not having a correct stamp (the school house stated that our BN FS couldn't sign/stamp our physical). My TL was given one hour to go get a stamp that they would accept (which he got and they did).
Eagle5US
05-07-2013, 21:23
What's up with the hard on for guard guys who have hard slots? My TL went two months ago and was hemmed up for his physical for not having a correct stamp (the school house stated that our BN FS couldn't sign/stamp our physical). My TL was given one hour to go get a stamp that they would accept (which he got and they did).
My buddy is the "new" DMO down there and they are riding him pretty hard on the physicals s/p training deaths so he reviews EVERY physical personally...and is also held responsible for the same.
As a side...your BN FS should know he cannot sign a dive physical anyway...must be signed by an HMO / DMO for CDQC.
My buddy is the "new" DMO down there and they are riding him pretty hard on the physicals s/p training deaths so he reviews EVERY physical personally...and is also held responsible for the same.
As a side...your BN FS should know he cannot sign a dive physical anyway...must be signed by an HMO / DMO for CDQC.
I can't speak for the CDQC side, but for the MFF side we've had no issues. I sent 7 guys last year to MFFPC and no issue inprocessing with our stamp. This time, there was and the guy who gave my TL the "new stamp" didn't change one thing on the physical except give a "new stamp"
FWIW - in my time, our UWO physicals were signed off by the Group Surgeon but our MFF physicals required a Flight Surgeon's approval - it was a USAF FS in Europe where I went through MFF training while at Tölz and an Army FS over at the TMC servicing the Corps aviation assets while at Bragg for those attending the SFS course and our updates.
Richard
bravo22b
06-11-2013, 09:31
My apologies if this question has already been covered, but I didn't see it when I searched. Also, if this is sensitive, I can be contacted by .mil account.
It's looking like there is a possibility that we will be fielded the MFFARAPS, presumably as a substitute for the MFF capability that is specified in the LRSC MTOE but that will never be attained, at least not by a NG LRS company.
I've been asked to provide some sort of information on our needs, and one question that I'm having a hard time answering is what type of training will be required for someone who is already SL qualified to utilize the MFFARAPS in a static line employment? Is there already a course designed to award qualification, or is the qualification initially achieved through NET fielding? If anyone has any information on how this would work, it is greatly appreciated. PM me if you need my .mil email address.
Thanks in advance.
Papa Zero Three
06-11-2013, 11:09
My apologies if this question has already been covered, but I didn't see it when I searched. Also, if this is sensitive, I can be contacted by .mil account.
It's looking like there is a possibility that we will be fielded the MFFARAPS, presumably as a substitute for the MFF capability that is specified in the LRSC MTOE but that will never be attained, at least not by a NG LRS company.
I've been asked to provide some sort of information on our needs, and one question that I'm having a hard time answering is what type of training will be required for someone who is already SL qualified to utilize the MFFARAPS in a static line employment? Is there already a course designed to award qualification, or is the qualification initially achieved through NET fielding? If anyone has any information on how this would work, it is greatly appreciated. PM me if you need my .mil email address.
Thanks in advance.
The short answer is yes...with some "buts". The transition train up is something that can/could be done at the unit once you have a core of qualified people in the unit to train those transitioning to the system, much like a JM course is run in house. We did this with the MC-5 system years ago and not too long ago myself and a co worker ran a double bag static line transition course for several non halo qualified teams on a similar but different system than the new RA-1.
Without getting into the weeds, a training concept for this was identified and written into the echelons above reality paperwork that is part of the fielding process and getting this capability added to the system. Now for the "Buts". There isn't a solidified POI (that I am aware of yet) along with other C2 issues that i wont get into here. There are several ways to conduct the course, the shortest being 10 days with no O2 and not over 10k MSL that will give you a day/night combat equipment qualification. You will have to have HALO JMs receive DBSL training and conduct the jumps until you can run a DBSL JM course and qualify existing SL JM's internally(one exists but this is another C2/POI issue). If you plan on going above 10kMSL your people will need to be chambered to conduct O2 operations. There are other logistical issues but these are most that concern the jumpers/JMs. I don't know how non SOF units will be directed to go about transitioning their people so take what I've said as possibly how it will happen (and highly likely to change from what I've described here) until you hear otherwise, but that should give you an idea of what lies ahead.
bravo22b
06-11-2013, 19:12
The short answer is yes...with some "buts". The transition train up is something that can/could be done at the unit once you have a core of qualified people in the unit to train those transitioning to the system, much like a JM course is run in house. We did this with the MC-5 system years ago and not too long ago myself and a co worker ran a double bag static line transition course for several non halo qualified teams on a similar but different system than the new RA-1.
Without getting into the weeds, a training concept for this was identified and written into the echelons above reality paperwork that is part of the fielding process and getting this capability added to the system. Now for the "Buts". There isn't a solidified POI (that I am aware of yet) along with other C2 issues that i wont get into here. There are several ways to conduct the course, the shortest being 10 days with no O2 and not over 10k MSL that will give you a day/night combat equipment qualification. You will have to have HALO JMs receive DBSL training and conduct the jumps until you can run a DBSL JM course and qualify existing SL JM's internally(one exists but this is another C2/POI issue). If you plan on going above 10kMSL your people will need to be chambered to conduct O2 operations. There are other logistical issues but these are most that concern the jumpers/JMs. I don't know how non SOF units will be directed to go about transitioning their people so take what I've said as possibly how it will happen (and highly likely to change from what I've described here) until you hear otherwise, but that should give you an idea of what lies ahead.
Papa Zero Three, thanks for the quick response and the information, it's very helpful. It's hard to articulate much to my higher without a concept of how something like this would be implemented, so this at least gives me an idea of how it could happen.