NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire

[BMT (RIP)]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/

Mayor probably does not allow range time as it's too violent!! :D

BMT

[Dusty]

Doomberg lets his cops have guns?

[PRB]

WE, the US Army, thru JTF6 built a great range complex for the NY cops when Guiliani was Mayor.
Prior to that they had to qualify on a 15 meter target range once a year...I believe it was 50 rounds, offhand, standing straight up with a two hand grip...no time limit.....no stress...
I don't know it they use the shoot house we built (their equipment and material...we provided the 12B's)...nice deal with city streets, stop lights and 3 story buildings.
That 'train like you fight' MTT may have to redo it's POI.

[mojaveman]

If New York is anything like California those folks who were wounded are going to be padding their bank accounts pretty soon.

[Richard]

NYPD Training Bureau | Police Academy l Firearms and Tactics Training

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/training_nypd/firearm_tatics.shtml

Evaluation of the New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge Review Process
Rand Center On Quality Policing, 2008

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG717.pdf

Richard :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

Inexcusable and gross criminal negligence.

I'm sure their actions will be defended by the idiot mayor. As a former bodyguard to the American Ambassador and a Senator I can say without a doubt you don't shoot into the crowd and pray you hit the bad man. You close with the badman to a distance you know you will hit him without hitting bystanders.

I see some very major lawsuits coming from this shooting.

Inexcusable and gross criminal negligence.

[Ape Man]

For those without the time to read Richard's links the following quote from the Rand report captures the basic problem...

NYPD officers are required to requalify on their firearms twice a year. While
the requalification course meets the standards required by New York and is consistent with national norms, shooting at paper targets on a known-distance range does not demonstrate that the officer has mastered his or her firearm and is ready for a shooting confrontation on the streets. While the NYPD has several advanced ranges that better prepare officers for confrontations that may involve firearms, the size of the department and logistical considerations prevent them from being used as part of the semiannual requalification program for the vast majority of officers.

[Dusty]

NY's come a long way since the Cirillo days.

[Team Sergeant]

For those without the time to read Richard's links the following quote from the Rand report captures the basic problem...

NYPD officers are required to requalify on their firearms twice a year. While
the requalification course meets the standards required by New York and is consistent with national norms, shooting at paper targets on a known-distance range does not demonstrate that the officer has mastered his or her firearm and is ready for a shooting confrontation on the streets. While the NYPD has several advanced ranges that better prepare officers for confrontations that may involve firearms, the size of the department and logistical considerations prevent them from being used as part of the semiannual requalification program for the vast majority of officers.


Rand, what a wonderful think tank, they need to get their heads our of their collective arses. Sorry, but guess who else qualifies only twice a year? Yup the entire military as far as I know.

Qualifying only twice a year is not the reason those NYPD officers fired into a crowd of people, they did so because they were scared shitless and they were incompetent.

From a city run by morons I expect no less.

So now if you are in an active shooter situation you sure as hell don't want to be in NYC cause the cops will kill you also.

I wonder if they got their training from Blackwater?

[blue02hd]

I love how you all jump on the cops for this, when it is clearly evident to me that they were using crooked bullets. Consider ALL the angles, is all I ask.

:lifter

[PSM]

NYPD vs. Pitbull video: http://gothamist.com/2012/08/14/graphic_video_dog_shot_in_east_vill.php I'm surprised that the dog was the only one hit. :eek:

Pat

[mark46th]

I think NYPD should turn in their firearms, issued entrenching tools then sent Giduck's Spetznatz ET training class.

[Leozinho]

Here's CCTV footage of the shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W8cHwNuqH4

The officer on our right shooting appears to be shooting one handed? :confused:

[BMT (RIP)]

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/08/it-only-takes-one-awsht-to-erase-dozen.html

BMT

[Team Sergeant]

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/08/it-only-takes-one-awsht-to-erase-dozen.html

BMT

This ain't one ahh-shite.... there's been a buttload of NYPD shootings that when more than one officer was involved they fired an incredible amount of rounds at one target.

See the story below, they shot and killed an unarmed guy, 50 bullets were fired. I'd say without a doubt they have a long long history of gross weapons incompetence.


NYPD Shooting That Claimed Groom on Wedding Day Stemmed From Undercover Operation
Published November 26, 2006
FoxNews.com


The case of NYPD officers opening fire on an unarmed bachelor party outside a Queens strip club — killing the groom on his wedding day and injuring two — was sent to the local district attorney for review Saturday.


The incident began when a car full of three men rammed into an undercover officer as the group left a bachelor party at the Kalua Cabaret at roughly 4:14 a.m. ET Saturday. Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun, and opened fire, unloading 50 rounds and killing Sean Bell, 23.


However, a search of the car uncovered no weapons and details were still unclear.Cont:

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,231946,00.html#ixzz24fGRHQG0

[Richard]

These are the Rand study's recommendations from 4 years ago:

Recommendations - Based on these findings, we recommend that the NYPD modify training to include reflexive-shooting scenarios in which a stimulus, such as the cry, “He’s got a gun!” or the sounds of guns going off, are included to sensitize officers to cues that may not be reliable and to teach them that such cues may generate unwanted responses. In addition, the NYPD should have officers practice with the correct decisionmaking process to reduce the use of inappropriate decisionmaking shortcuts. Finally, the NYPD should make sure that all officers involved in a shooting undergo the mandatory, one-day refresher course at the range.

Seems pretty reasonable to me for a metropolitan police force operating in an environment like the NYPD - also seems to me as if these recommendations are yet to be put into action.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[AntMan]

If New York is anything like California those folks who were wounded are going to be padding their bank accounts pretty soon.

And at the expense of the tax payer to boot. This is one time, I don't blame them for sewing the city. There is absolutely no excuse for this.

[Team Sergeant]

These are the Rand study's recommendations from 4 years ago:

Recommendations - Based on these findings, we recommend that the NYPD modify training to include reflexive-shooting scenarios in which a stimulus, such as the cry, “He’s got a gun!” or the sounds of guns going off, are included to sensitize officers to cues that may not be reliable and to teach them that such cues may generate unwanted responses. In addition, the NYPD should have officers practice with the correct decisionmaking process to reduce the use of inappropriate decisionmaking shortcuts. Finally, the NYPD should make sure that all officers involved in a shooting undergo the mandatory, one-day refresher course at the range.

Seems pretty reasonable to me for a metropolitan police force operating in an environment like the NYPD - also seems to me as if these recommendations are yet to be put into action.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Rand is out of their league on their recommendations. After reading Rand's recommendations it seems they took their guidance from the local gunstore owner on how to make the NYPD shoot better.

IMO and having worked with and trained many cops, half of them should never be carrying a loaded firearm period. That goes 75-90% for all the "feds" carrying weapons.

Shooting 50 rounds at an unarmed individual, by that poses no threat is not from lack of training it's a systemic problem of the NYPD. This is what happens when you lower standards both mental and physical of a police force to meet "hiring" requirements.

No think tank recommendation is going to fix what has been broken for a century. And no one is going to point to the incompetent leadership of the NYPD for allowing this to happen in the first place.

I would not purchase and train a beagle to be a protection dog. Now there's nothing wrong with being a beagle, they are great dogs, but I would not want to bet my life on one protecting me.

The NYPD needs to hire the proper individuals to do the job or stand and be sued for gross incompetence.

Shooting nine people is gross incompetence. The chief of the NYPD should resign ASAP, as should most of the senior staff of that department.

[The Reaper]

As soon as this happened, I told my coworker that there would be a plethora of rounds fired, due to the apparent tendency of NYPD officers to shoot till slide lock before assessing the effect of the rounds fired.

Who should law-abiding citizens fear more, the sheepdog, or the wolf? If both bite and kill sheep, is there a practical difference?

At one time, I was involved in offering tactical training to LE agencies.

After two years of frustration, I became convinced that the typical LE agency would rather deal with multiple lives wrongfully lost and millions of dollars in lawsuits every year than to spend the thousands of dollars it would take to properly gain AND MAINTAIN relevant and realistic tactical firearms training.

Departments know they are hiring people without competence and then failing to properly select and assess the ones who should not be carrying a firearm, much less using it. Everybody is a winner these days. Doing this should be criminal.

A realistic firearms training environment would employ a crawl, walk, run methodology built around initial use of force proficiency, followed by scenarios of increasing difficulty and skills required, conducted by veteran personnel with tactical proficiency AND the demonstrated ability to transfer those skills to the students. The instructors would need to be experienced and well-trained themselves. I would say that a graduation exercise would be a scored, high stress, escalating force, multiple distraction, all-weather, bright to dark (and vice versa) transitioning, indoor and outdoor, shoot-no shoot Simunitions scenario with multiple role players of unknown intent. This would be initially run as an individual, and upon successful completion, a team event. Application of lethal force against a non-hostile role player would result in a debriefing, followed by a retest, followed, if necessary by ONE retraining recycle. Other issues, such as use of force policy deviations, marksmanship issues (not involving shooting non-hostiles), tactical deficiencies, etc. could be dealt with by retraining, recycling, etc. Students failing to meet the standards in a reasonable number of recycles and retraining would be released from the program and forbidden to carry a firearm as part of their duties. No quotas, no preferences. Pass or fail. Retraining and requalification would be required at regular intervals to address time-based atrophy of learned skills. A impartial review board of experienced officers with proper lethal force resumes could adjudicate failures and handle appeals. All lethal force encounters resulting in firearms discharges would also be boarded. Feedback from the latest encounters would be incorporated into the training curriculum at regular intervals. Equipment/policy changes or added weapons like shotguns, carbines, etc. would require requalification as well.

Of course, this would take time and require expenditure of ammunition in training. In return, you would get a much more effective training program, and officers who shot less and hit what they were aiming. In my humble experience, most departments would prefer to spend the funds and time addressing wrongful death lawsuits than properly selecting, equipping, and training their officers. There are some exceptions, but far too few, IMHO.

NYPD has a a FireArms Training Simulator building at Rodman's Neck, IIRC. I wager that neither of these two officers have been inside it for quality lethal force training lately.

I believe that the ranges at Rodman's Neck are also restricted from firing during nightime hours because of noise complaints.

So much for a well-trained armed security force to protect and serve.:rolleyes:

Mayor Bloomberg should resign.

TR

[Peregrino]

Mayor Bloomberg should resign.

TR

Personally I think Mayor Bloomberg should be a co-defendant in the deserved lawsuits. It's his police department and he's done as much (or more) than his predecesors to create/perpetuate the current status quo. He certainly hasn't tried to fix it.