View Full Version : Federal Judge Imposes Racial Quota on FDNY........
greenberetTFS
07-19-2012, 08:04
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/federal-judge-imposes-racial-quota-fdny-responding-minorities-who-failed-entrance-exams
Big Teddy :munchin
Surgicalcric
07-19-2012, 08:15
The ruling allows back pay -- totaling an estimated $128.7 million -- for minorities who failed written tests.
The court order is a response to a lawsuit alleging that two placement exams (Written Exams 7029 or 2043) for the FDNY were discriminatory against blacks and Hispanics, because fewer minorities passed the exam than whites. (See copies of the exams here.)
I fail to see how it is discrimination when the stupid fucks fail to pass the entrance exam.
I fail to see how it is discrimination when the stupid fucks fail to pass the entrance exam.
I agree with QP Surgicalcric.
Furthermore, is the judge saying that whoever wrote the exams wrote them purposefully in such a way that blacks and hispanics would find them impossible to pass? How is this possible? I can ALMOST sort of, kind of, slightly see how maybe you could write a test that included some weird facet of history that black students typically don't notice, or maybe on some nuance of the English language that isn't widely known, but how do you do this for two complete races of people? And beyond this, wouldn't ANY black or hispanic applicant passing the test negate the assertion that the test was purposefully written to filter blacks and hispanics?
:confused:
From the article:
“Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits not only intentional discrimination, but also employment practices that appear to be fair in form but are discriminatory in operation,” the Department states in a fact sheet on the FDNY case. “A facially neutral employment practice, such as a written examination, that disproportionately excludes individuals from employment opportunities on the basis of their membership in a protected group, such as a particular race or national origin, and cannot be shown to be related to job performance, violates Title VII.”
Judge Garanufis ruled that any black or Hispanic individual who failed either written exam with a score of 25 out of 100 or higher is eligible to receive place on the priority hiring list as well as damages, including “non-economic damages.”
Non-economic damages are intended to compensate for the “lost intangible benefits of being a firefighter.” The intangible benefits include “prestige, job satisfaction, camaraderie, unique excitement, enjoyment of flexible scheduling, unusual employment stability, feeling of security derived from retiring with a full pension and lifetime medical benefits, and the potential for career advancement.”
WTF?
I agree with QP Surgicalcric.
Furthermore, is the judge saying that whoever wrote the exams wrote them purposefully in such a way that blacks and hispanics would find them impossible to pass? How is this possible? I can ALMOST sort of, kind of, slightly see how maybe you could write a test that included some weird facet of history that black students typically don't notice, or maybe on some nuance of the English language that isn't widely known, but how do you do this for two complete races of people? And beyond this, wouldn't ANY black or hispanic applicant passing the test negate the assertion that the test was purposefully written to filter blacks and hispanics?
:confused:
From the article:
WTF?
Glad I don't own a house in New York City.
Surgicalcric
07-19-2012, 09:11
... I can ALMOST sort of, kind of, slightly see how maybe you could write a test that included some weird facet of history that black students typically don't notice, or maybe on some nuance of the English language that isn't widely known, but how do you do this for two complete races of people? And beyond this, wouldn't ANY black or hispanic applicant passing the test negate the assertion that the test was purposefully written to filter blacks and hispanics?
I can assure you that, at least on the test given in 1995, there aren't any of those type of questions. It is a straight forward test that is not too dissimilar to the ASVAB. Furthermore, having taken 4 civil service tests (Charleston and Greenville, SC; Boston, MA; and FDNY) I remember the FDNY test being the easiest.
This is nothing more than lazy people wanting someone else to blame for their own inadequacies.
Crip
Look at some of the exam questions - clearly racist.
http://documents.nytimes.com/new-york-city-firefighter-examinations
You didn't pass the exam by yourself, you had help (from the court).
It's Bush's fault!
"The Bush Justice Department filed suit against the FDNY in May 2007, challenging the exams that were first administered in 1999 and 2002. In July 2009, Judge Garaufis ruled that New York City had violated Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, and then in 2010 he found the city liable for “intentional discrimination against black applicants,” according to the DOJ.
In a previous ruling, Judge Garaufis accused the FDNY of being a “bastion of white male privilege.”
"While the City's other uniformed services and fire departments across the country have changed to reflect the communities they serve, employment as a New York City firefighter -- arguably 'the best job in the world' -- has remained a stubborn bastion of white male privilege," Garaufis wrote in October 2011."
"Give me the most CAPABLE firefighter. I don't care if it's a 4 foot elderly black lesbian who practices witchcraft with a stutter. If she scores highest on the test and can pass everything else better than the rest of the mob. Give her the job. If she can't, then give it to the next guy or gal, white, Hispanic, martian or other. This affirmative action crap is out of hand!"
And a great link for the new "test" from the comments section:
http://gyazo.com/51b76552471bd8ee4465b8db486f6335
Badger52
07-19-2012, 11:46
In a previous ruling, Judge Garaufis accused the FDNY of being a “bastion of white male privilege.”Future Supreme Court nominee.
I fail to see how it is discrimination when the stupid fucks fail to pass the entrance exam.
Are you saying that Blacks, Hispanics, and members other racial minority groups are stupid?
" Fewer than 10 percent of the 11,200 uniformed firefighters in the city are black or Hispanic even though more than half of the city's 8 million residents identify with a racial minority group."
"the department is about 3 percent black in a city where roughly a quarter of the population is black. "
"Evidence cited in the case showed that blacks made up about 14 percent of the Los Angeles Fire Department and about 11 percent of that city’s population; Chicago’s department was about 20 percent black, serving a population about 37 percent black. "
IMO...Somethings rotten in Denmark!
:munchin
Are you saying that Blacks, Hispanics, and members other racial minority groups are stupid?
" Fewer than 10 percent of the 11,200 uniformed firefighters in the city are black or Hispanic even though more than half of the city's 8 million residents identify with a racial minority group."
"the department is about 3 percent black in a city where roughly a quarter of the population is black. "
"Evidence cited in the case showed that blacks made up about 14 percent of the Los Angeles Fire Department and about 11 percent of that city’s population; Chicago’s department was about 20 percent black, serving a population about 37 percent black. "
IMO...Somethings rotten in Denmark!
:munchin
Maybe those who identify themselves as black in NY don't want to be firefighters. How does that make the test racist?
Women officers are underrepresented in the DOD (compared to their numbers in the civilian population) that doesn't mean DoD is mysogynist, it just means that "most" women have decided not to join the military, and if they do, they "chose" to enlist instead of become officers.
Correlation does not always mean causation.
I fail to see how it is discrimination when the stupid fucks fail to pass the entrance exam.
Very well said Crip!:munchin
Holly
Are you saying that Blacks, Hispanics, and members other racial minority groups are stupid?
:munchin
Equally as stupid as members of racial majorities who fail the test.
Maybe those who identify themselves as black in NY don't want to be firefighters. How does that make the test racist?
Women officers are underrepresented in the DOD (compared to their numbers in the civilian population) that doesn't mean DoD is mysogynist, it just means that "most" women have decided not to join the military, and if they do, they "chose" to enlist instead of become officers.
Correlation does not always mean causation.
Amen M'am. Furthermore, I imagine that you would be insulted if you were rewarded for failure, as is the case here:
Judge Garanufis ruled that any black or Hispanic individual who failed either written exam with a score of 25 out of 100 or higher is eligible to receive place on the priority hiring list as well as damages, including “non-economic damages.”
Non-economic damages are intended to compensate for the “lost intangible benefits of being a firefighter.” The intangible benefits include “prestige, job satisfaction, camaraderie, unique excitement, enjoyment of flexible scheduling, unusual employment stability, feeling of security derived from retiring with a full pension and lifetime medical benefits, and the potential for career advancement.”
Lets just stop training and testing folks for everything. No point in training since there will be no means to ascertain the effectiveness of training. Everyone can just do the job they want, liability be damned. Want to be a jumpmaster? Just buy yourself a badge and you is one.
MVP
Lets just stop training and testing folks for everything. No point in training since there will be no means to ascertain the effectiveness of training. Everyone can just do the job they want, liability be damned. Want to be a jumpmaster? Just buy yourself a badge and you is one.
MVP
lol That won't work in the NBA. :D
mark46th
07-19-2012, 14:46
Walter Williams wrote an article about an NYPD officer who was trying to change his ethnic/race designation to pass the Sergeant's exam. He was from Panama with a hispanic surname and a black father. He joined under a program to hire more hispanics but the Sergeant's exam given to black officer's was easier to pass....
Maybe those who identify themselves as black in NY don't want to be firefighters. How does that make the test racist?
Women officers are underrepresented in the DOD (compared to their numbers in the civilian population) that doesn't mean DoD is mysogynist, it just means that "most" women have decided not to join the military, and if they do, they "chose" to enlist instead of become officers.
Correlation does not always mean causation.
If you believe that...then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell to you.
Second IMHO this type of verdict is racist in itself. They are saying blacks and Hispanics are not intelligent enough to compete with whites so they have to change something and lower the standard.
Last but not least this type of action causes resentment and creates racial issues IMHO.
Spot on.
If you believe that...then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell to you.
Then please feel free to explain how the test is designed to ensure that blacks don't pass it? Either you know the material, or you don't. I am so sick and tired of people blaming other people for their failures, instead of doing what needs to be done to succeed.
Not every damn profession needs to be representative of the societal makeup of that given population. My dad's best friend is a fire fighter, and fought tooth and nail to get rid of the women in his house that couldn't do the job because they just weren'tt strong enough. Never happened. So now other peoples lives are at stake when these women go out on a call.
So for the QPS out there, are the tests you all have to go through racially biased, and that is why there are not as many minorities represented? How is this any different. Either you can do the job or you can't.
WCH, do you want to put your family's life in the hands of one of these guys that can't pass the exam?
Surgicalcric
07-19-2012, 17:49
Are you saying that Blacks, Hispanics, and members other racial minority groups are stupid?
As a whole no. I am saying, as a nationally certified firefighter who has taken and passed - without fail - quite a few firefighter exams, that anyone who fails a test such as the one in question, regardless of their racial or ethnic background, is stupid. The only other reason for failing such a test is being too lazy too study.
Regardless of the reason I dont want either fighting fire by my side...
Equally as stupid as members of racial majorities who fail the test.
EXACTLY!!!!!!
Crip
Surgicalcric
07-19-2012, 17:52
...Last but not least this type of action causes resentment and creates racial issues IMHO.
Not only that, it puts the lives of those dedicated to the profession at greater risk as well as the public they are there to serve.
Dumb, stupid, uneducated, ill informed ignorant or whatever you want to call it has no racial boundaries. If you can't pass a test to get into something that others have passed then you don't qualify.
It's pretty cut and dry to me. :munchin
Dumb, stupid, uneducated, ill informed ignorant or whatever you want to call it has no racial boundaries. If you can't pass a test to get into something that others have passed then you don't qualify.
It's pretty cut and dry to me. :munchin
We need more common sense like that in DC - now - and, that's pretty cut and dry to me.
:lifter
The Reaper
07-19-2012, 19:45
Are you saying that Blacks, Hispanics, and members other racial minority groups are stupid?
No he is saying that the ones who took the test and failed are stupid, or at least ignorant. The ones who passed would be fine.
Maybe we should just dispense with SFAS for minorities and give them green berets.
After all, our standards might be discriminatory as well.:rolleyes:
TR
FWIW, the Village Voice ran an article on this controversy back in 2010. That piece, and a supplemental article "The 10 [sic] Most Idiotic Questions from FDNY Entrance Exams," are available here (http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-12-15/news/fdny-extrance-exam-non-white-hiring/) and there (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2010/12/the_10_most_idi.php).
Brace yourselves. Members of this BB may find themselves agreeing with The Village Voice.:eek:
Then please feel free to explain how the test is designed to ensure that blacks don't pass it? Either you know the material, or you don't. I am so sick and tired of people blaming other people for their failures, instead of doing what needs to be done to succeed.
Not every damn profession needs to be representative of the societal makeup of that given population. My dad's best friend is a fire fighter, and fought tooth and nail to get rid of the women in his house that couldn't do the job because they just weren'tt strong enough. Never happened. So now other peoples lives are at stake when these women go out on a call.
So for the QPS out there, are the tests you all have to go through racially biased, and that is why there are not as many minorities represented? How is this any different. Either you can do the job or you can't.
WCH, do you want to put your family's life in the hands of one of these guys that can't pass the exam?
Yes. You had to rich, jump, navigate, shoot and swim. Oh you also had to read and write.....
............Brace yourselves. Members of this BB may find themselves agreeing with The Village Voice.:eek:
Agree? I'm not quite sure what their point was they kinda' flip flopped from one question to the other. But they picked what they thought was the ten dumbest questions - and I got them all right.
I'm not sure exactly where in the process the test is given. Is it before any firefighter schooling - or is it after training and you are applying for a position?
Either way - a test is a test - pass or fail - it used to be up to you. Now I guess pass is optional for minorities.
What was that Rush says about the left? The bigotry of low expectations?
1. Then please feel free to explain how the test is designed to ensure that blacks don't pass it? Either you know the material, or you don't. I am so sick and tired of people blaming other people for their failures, instead of doing what needs to be done to succeed.
2. Not every damn profession needs to be representative of the societal makeup of that given population. My dad's best friend is a fire fighter, and fought tooth and nail to get rid of the women in his house that couldn't do the job because they just weren'tt strong enough. Never happened. So now other peoples lives are at stake when these women go out on a call.
3. So for the QPS out there, are the tests you all have to go through racially biased, and that is why there are not as many minorities represented? How is this any different. Either you can do the job or you can't.
4. WCH, do you want to put your family's life in the hands of one of these guys that can't pass the exam?
1. I am not a qualified expert in the field of Testing and Measurement ( which I believe the court relied on) so, I'll leave that to those who are. Are you?.
2. Totally irrelevant to the issue here.
3. I'd say no, but again I'm not trained to make that determination.
4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "the exam" is not what qualifies the individual to be a firefighter. There's a little thing called the NYFD Academy that
stands in the way, just as the SFQC stands in the way of earning the Green Beret.
I lived in NY, and recall that if you weren't of Irish or Italian decent and come from a family of firefighters, your chances of getting "on the job" were slim to none.
I'm not a fan of "racial quotas" however in this case the City of NY and the NYFD have been fighting the issue, and ignoring the courts for years...so something needed to be done.
As the New York Post cited from Garaufis's opinion, though this battle has been going for some 42 years, in the past decade the fault is largely the Mayor's:
"The clear evidence of disparate impact that Mayor Bloomberg and his senior leadership chose to ignore was obvious to anyone else who looked. Instead of facing hard facts and asking hard questions about the City's abysmal track record of hiring black and Hispanic firefighters, the Bloomberg Administration dug in and fought back.
"The only reason that the court today considers how to end the City's discriminatory hiring practices and eliminate their lasting effects is that a coalition of black New York City firefighters and President George W. Bush's attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez, decided their only recourse was to sue the City of New York to make it stop."
:munchin
Surgicalcric
07-20-2012, 09:10
...so something needed to be done.
I concur there is discrimination in the hiring process of FDNY - the same is true of the promotion system. However changing the civil service test to allow less intelligent individuals to pass isn't going to fix the hiring issue.
IMHO, the test should stand and personnel then hired based on the individuals ranking on the test (as long as they are medically fit and have no derogatory background issues.)
Crip
Agree? I'm not quite sure what their point was they kinda' flip flopped from one question to the other. But they picked what they thought was the ten dumbest questions - and I got them all right.
I'm not sure exactly where in the process the test is given. Is it before any firefighter schooling - or is it after training and you are applying for a position?
Either way - a test is a test - pass or fail - it used to be up to you. Now I guess pass is optional for minorities.
What was that Rush says about the left? The bigotry of low expectations?Pete--
I believe it was Michael Gerson--not Mr. Limbaugh--who coined the phrase and that Bush the Younger brought it to the public consciousness.
By "agree," I mean, for example, the posts by WCH and Suricalcric.
MOO, the issues with the FDNY's hiring and promotion practices are not going to be addressed successfully by changing testing standards so that less qualified applicants can get in.
AngelsSix
07-20-2012, 16:18
I can assure you that, at least on the test given in 1995, there aren't any of those type of questions. It is a straight forward test that is not too dissimilar to the ASVAB. Furthermore, having taken 4 civil service tests (Charleston and Greenville, SC; Boston, MA; and FDNY) I remember the FDNY test being the easiest.
This is nothing more than lazy people wanting someone else to blame for their own inadequacies.
Crip
I agree. I have taken the test for the NYPD as well, same thing there. People are too lazy to do well in school and then want to join a fire department or police department with the mindset that all they have to do is carry a gun/hose and do what they are told. It may have been that way 50 years ago, but things have come a loing way since then, especially in NYC.
FDNY isn't anywhere near as diverse as the NYPD.
Minorities Gain in NYPD Ranks
By TAMER EL-GHOBASHY
At the end of 2010, the New York City Police Department had the most diverse force in its history, with a majority of rank-and-file police officers coming from minority communities, officials said.
Of the 22,199 officers on patrol, nearly 53% were black, Latino or Asian, marking the first time minorities outnumbered whites by any significant measure, according to police department statistics reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. Minorities had been in a dead-heat with white patrol officers since late 2006, and began inching toward a majority in 2008.
The trend has brought the department's racial breakdown closer to the overall ethnic makeup of the city.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576066302323002420.html
lol That won't work in the NBA. :D
Well there is one place we DEFINITELY need to lower the standards.
Surgicalcric
07-20-2012, 20:32
FDNY isn't anywhere near as diverse as the NYPD.
Cops aren't firefighters.
Cops aren't firefighters.
Obviously. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCeKGR9HX7M&feature=related
greenberetTFS
07-21-2012, 11:59
Recent test score of potential employee.........:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
If you believe that...then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell to you.
Bullshit. Ethnic minorities make up an extremely small percentage of Combat Arms MOS's in the Army. That isn't due to discrimination, its is due to desire to serve in those roles. There are no written tests for 11, 12, 14, and 19 series MOS's at MEPS when signing up. Yet minorities are highly under-represented there. Most jobs in the Army require a pulse and a winning smile at the entry level.
I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that the test is biased against minorities in this day and age, as any civil servant would risk spontaneous combustion for trying it.
Exactly how is the discrimination taking place? Please, give me an sampling of test questions that were designed exclude them.
1. Bullshit. Ethnic minorities make up an extremely small percentage of Combat Arms MOS's in the Army. That isn't due to discrimination, its is due to desire to serve in those roles. There are no written tests for 11, 12, 14, and 19 series MOS's at MEPS when signing up. Yet minorities are highly under-represented there. Most jobs in the Army require a pulse and a winning smile at the entry level.
2. I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that the test is biased against minorities in this day and age, as any civil servant would risk spontaneous combustion for trying it.
3. Exactly how is the discrimination taking place? Please, give me an sampling of test questions that were designed exclude them.
1. None of which has anything to do with FDNY, or the city of NY. Of the 61, 000 applicants for the up coming test (FDNY) 14,000+ are black, and 14,000+ are Hispanic, so it's pure ignorance to say that minorities don't want to be FDNY firefighters.
2. You seem a bit naive.
3. Unless you're educated (PhD) in Testing and Measurement, it's above your pay grade, as it is mine. If you are really interested in the case, I suggest you obtain a copy of the transcript from the court .
Surgicalcric
07-21-2012, 20:59
... Unless you educated (PhD) in Testing and Measurement, it's above your paygrade, as it is mine...
Yet you still seem to believe the test was in fact created and/or administered in such as fashion that it is difficult for minorities to pass it.
Furthermore, is the judge saying that whoever wrote the exams wrote them purposefully in such a way that blacks and hispanics would find them impossible to pass? How is this possible? I can ALMOST sort of, kind of, slightly see how maybe you could write a test that included some weird facet of history that black students typically don't notice, or maybe on some nuance of the English language that isn't widely known, but how do you do this for two complete races of people? And beyond this, wouldn't ANY black or hispanic applicant passing the test negate the assertion that the test was purposefully written to filter blacks and hispanics?
:confused:
<<SNIP>>
WTF?@Hand--
Responses to questions on standardized exams can hinge upon how members of different ethnic and socio-economic groups interpret a key word or phrase. Consider the two hypothetical examples.
Q1. You cut your hand while using a knife in the kitchen. What do you do?
Q2. In the course of preparing dinner for your parents' anniversary, your spouse tells you that she burned the meal. What do you do?
For some, a cut hand means nothing more than a quick excursion to the medicine cabinet to clean the wound and put on a band aid. For others, a cut hand means a trip to the emergency room.
For some, a burned meal means a ruined meal and indicates the need for Plan B. For others, a burned meal connotes a perfectly cooked meal and indicates that there will be no leftovers.
Now, put yourself in the position of someone evaluating the responses to the two questions and in both cases, you're expecting the answers to center around a band aid and Plan B. If, instead, you read answers about trips to the emergency room and eating burned food, you may well have a WTF moment that leads you to evaluating the rest of the exam with a much higher level of scrutiny because of the cultural and socio-economic disconnect.
Now, in this hypothetical, everyone involved is operating in good faith but, over time, it becomes clear that members of one cohort are doing better than members of other cohorts. How does one identify the disparity? How does one correct it? (Should it be corrected?)
Ideally, these types of issues are vetted through a quality assurance process to make sure that from a cultural and socio economic perspective (if not also from a gendered identity perspective--it is a satchel, not a murse nor a man bag, dammit--the questions are focused on measuring what really needs to be measured.
HTH.
@Hand--
Responses to questions on standardized exams can hinge upon how members of different ethnic and socio-economic groups interpret a key word or phrase. Consider the two hypothetical examples.
Q1. You cut your hand while using a knife in the kitchen. What do you do?
Q2. In the course of preparing dinner for your parents' anniversary, your spouse tells you that she burned the meal. What do you do?
For some, a cut hand means nothing more than a quick excursion to the medicine cabinet to clean the wound and put on a band aid. For others, a cut hand means a trip to the emergency room.
For some, a burned meal means a ruined meal and indicates the need for Plan B. For others, a burned meal connotes a perfectly cooked meal and indicates that there will be no leftovers.
Now, put yourself in the position of someone evaluating the responses to the two questions and in both cases, you're expecting the answers to center around a band aid and Plan B. If, instead, you read answers about trips to the emergency room and eating burned food, you may well have a WTF moment that leads you to evaluating the rest of the exam with a much higher level of scrutiny because of the cultural and socio-economic disconnect.
Now, in this hypothetical, everyone involved is operating in good faith but, over time, it becomes clear that members of one cohort are doing better than members of other cohorts. How does one identify the disparity? How does one correct it? (Should it be corrected?)
Ideally, these types of issues are vetted through a quality assurance process to make sure that from a cultural and socio economic perspective (if not also from a gendered identity perspective--it is a satchel, not a murse nor a man bag, dammit--the questions are focused on measuring what really needs to be measured.
HTH.
I understand that bias is possible if the questions are based upon an understanding of certain socioeconomic mores, or are of the "burned meal/cut hand" variety with answers geared towards certain ethnic preferances.
Can you name some example questions from this, or previous, FDNY exams that meet this criteria?
I have no problem believing that an institution such as the FDNY is racially biased or harbors a cabal of bigots in leadership positions. What I am having trouble with is the idea that a written, standardized test was structurally engineered with the specific goal of excluding minorities. Unless the answers are, as Sigaba suggested, solely grounded in "white" cultural lore, I challenge you to tell me HOW, SPECIFICALLY, the test was engineered in this way.
WCH.... the combat arms reference was a parallel to a smaller quantity of minorities not being synonymous with racism. As far as being naive, well, I have seen too many examples of substandard performance in the public sector explained away as bias, racism, or bigotry to think that none of that is present here.
Is there bias at FDNY? Don't know, its certainly possible. I'm questioning the idea that the written standardized test is to blame.
What I will say, TO YOU, is that your suggestion that my lack of a PhD in Testing and Measurement and not having a transcript disqualify me from commenting on this issue.
Do YOU have a transcript of the court case in question? You do seem to have an opinion. Lets keep our discussion to the issue and refrain from personal insults or barbs, what you do say?
I understand that bias is possible if the questions are based upon an understanding of certain socioeconomic mores, or are of the "burned meal/cut hand" variety with answers geared towards certain ethnic preferances.
Can you name some example questions from this, or previous, FDNY exams that meet this criteria?
I have no problem believing that an institution such as the FDNY is racially biased or harbors a cabal of bigots in leadership positions. What I am having trouble with is the idea that a written, standardized test was structurally engineered with the specific goal of excluding minorities. Unless the answers are, as Sigaba suggested, solely grounded in "white" cultural lore, I challenge you to tell me HOW, SPECIFICALLY, the test was engineered in this way.
WCH.... the combat arms reference was a parallel to a smaller quantity of minorities not being synonymous with racism. As far as being naive, well, I have seen too many examples of substandard performance in the public sector explained away as bias, racism, or bigotry to think that none of that is present here.
Is there bias at FDNY? Don't know, its certainly possible. I'm questioning the idea that the written standardized test is to blame.
What I will say, TO YOU, is that your suggestion that my lack of a PhD in Testing and Measurement and not having a transcript disqualify me from commenting on this issue.
Do YOU have a transcript of the court case in question? You do seem to have an opinion. Lets keep our discussion to the issue and refrain from personal insults or barbs, what you do say?scooter--
First, IIRC, the specific test in question remains sealed.
Second, my examples were offered hypothetically to explain to Hand, in a general way, how a standardized test could be biased.
Third, by my earlier posts, I believe I've positioned myself in agreement with those who feel that what ever the inequities of the FDNY's hiring and promotion processes, making the tests themselves the cause or the solution to the issue is a bit hard to take.
Fourth, I am pretty sure that you have misread one of your brother's posts as something that I have written. WCH authored post #41 in response to your post #40, not I.1. None of which has anything to do with FDNY, or the city of NY. Of the 61, 000 applicants for the up coming test (FDNY) 14,000+ are black, and 14,000+ are Hispanic, so it's pure ignorance to say that minorities don't want to be FDNY firefighters.
2. You seem a bit naive.
3. Unless you're educated (PhD) in Testing and Measurement, it's above your pay grade, as it is mine. If you are really interested in the case, I suggest you obtain a copy of the transcript from the court .
I guess DA needs to clean house in 10SFG and SF assignments branch as well, since minorities are grossly under-represented among the 18-series MOSs in all 4 10th Group battalions; must be a racial bias at the assignments desk, since it couldn't possibly be related to choice. :rolleyes:
scooter--
I am pretty sure that you have misread one of your brother's posts as something that I have written. WCH authored post #41 in response to your post #40, not I.
I was actually responding to WCH, sorry if that wasn't clear. I was making references to your post in passing while posting in a different direction.
For all of the disagreement that I and others have had with you on the issues here at PS.COM, you have never resorted to personal attacks or generic insults as far as I can recall, which is as it should be. Have a good one.
Dragbag036
07-23-2012, 19:45
I guess DA needs to clean house in 10SFG and SF assignments branch as well, since minorities are grossly under-represented among the 18-series MOSs in all 4 10th Group battalions; must be a racial bias at the assignments desk, since it couldn't possibly be related to choice. :rolleyes:
What could you possibly mean? I resemble that remark!
And by the way, I have been holding my typing finger on some of the comments. I have never, nor will I ever want to get preferential treatment for anything. So while you are looking at folks who may be a minority, if thats what they want to be called, I prefer American, dont put us all in the same boat. Many have worked hard to get rid of the idea that all "minorities" want a helping hand. Careful what you type, and think about your tone. The bottom line is, the idiot judge did nothing but cause more issues for the various individuals who will make it on their own ability. And enabled yet another underacheiver, to give closet bigots something else to f@$king complain about.
Done..and I'm not gonna comment any further, just keep lurking:eek:
I was actually responding to WCH, sorry if that wasn't clear. I was making references to your post in passing while posting in a different direction.
For all of the disagreement that I and others have had with you on the issues here at PS.COM, you have never resorted to personal attacks or generic insults as far as I can recall, which is as it should be. Have a good one.Well, to be fair I must say that I've been known to post from the Starbucks in Caerbannog from time to time.
The Reaper
07-26-2012, 16:36
Well, to be fair I must say that I've been known to post from the Starbucks in Caerbannog from time to time.
Doest thou haveth the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch? :D
TR
I guess DA needs to clean house in 10SFG and SF assignments branch as well, since minorities are grossly under-represented among the 18-series MOSs in all 4 10th Group battalions; must be a racial bias at the assignments desk, since it couldn't possibly be related to choice. :rolleyes:The cold weather ain't all that enticing either for most of us...LMMFAO!:eek::D
Dragbag036
07-26-2012, 20:12
The cold weather ain't all that enticing either for most of us...LMMFAO!:eek::D
Guy,
Yet another trait that I don't mind. I'll take the snow any day. I remember when I was in a "mountain school" in Mittenwald and when we had one of our daily climbs, as well as speaking German quite well, which surprised the instructors, they told me "i zink you are ze first black man to climb this summit", to which I replied, "leave the frosted colored negro alone :lifter
Doest thou haveth the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?Well...a while back, I thought I did.:cool:
As it turned out, it was just the four cups of coffee I had for lunch followed a few hours later by a sub with too many Jalapenos and too much pepperjack cheese.:confused::(:eek:
Of course, they don't call me stupid for nothing. So soon thereafter, I got back on the horse. Everything was going all right until...<<LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8cDfnQD0ws)>>.