View Full Version : Arizona pastor arrested for holding Bible study at home
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11/arizona-pastor-arrested-jailed-for-holding-bible-study-in-home-his-wife-says-it-defies-logic/ :eek:
Yes, you read that right. Make of it what you want, but I have a not-too-subtle feeling that we could soon be turning the corner when it comes to freedom of religion in this country. It sounds eeringly like what has gone on for decades in the People's Republic of China and other certain other places (including in Europe). These "zoning laws" are exactly the kind of BS propaganda they use to justify their oppression of religious people...
greenberetTFS
07-11-2012, 11:49
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11/arizona-pastor-arrested-jailed-for-holding-bible-study-in-home-his-wife-says-it-defies-logic/
Yes, you read that right. Make of it what you want, but I have a not-too-subtle feeling that we could soon be turning the corner when it comes to freedom of religion in this country. It sounds eeringly like what has gone on for decades in the People's Republic of China and other certain other places (including in Europe). These "zoning laws" are exactly the kind of BS propaganda they use to justify their oppression of religious people...
It's is just starting.........:( :( :(
Big Teddy :munchin
Well f*** me to tears :mad:. I guess Mary Kay reps, Avon, etc. need to be "zoned" now? I'm sure the city has absolutely nothing else to worry about other than this. So much for the separation of church and state. I realize articles/news like this shouldn't get to me, but it seems I picked a hell of a time to quit smoking :boohoo
How does enforcement of municipal building codes come anywhere close to being like the PRC?:rolleyes:
How does enforcement of municipal building codes come anywhere close to being like the PRC?:rolleyes:
The comparison I was attempting to draw is that the PRC constantly tries to rationalize their persecution of Christian house churches by saying they are somehow breaking municipal and/or federal laws...
I notice the story does not say how many was at his "Bible Study".
From the zoning guy it sounds like a lot - and pretty regular.
So if it's a lot and regular does that make his "Bible Study" a church?
They have zoning requirements in subdivisions for a reason.
All you complainers? You're cool with your next door neighbor holding Koran studies every Friday night and about 50 guys praying in his front yard - and two or three cars parked in front of your house and more on down the street?
Pete - Who don't like HOA's but does agree with zoning.
The comparison I was attempting to draw is that the PRC constantly tries to rationalize their persecution of Christian house churches by saying they are somehow breaking municipal and/or federal laws...
What is your evidence that Mr. Salman was not in violation of the municipal code? (By her own statement, Mrs. Salman basically admits that she and her husband were in non compliance.)
What is your evidence that the PRC and "other certain other places" use municipal code violations to practice religious discrimination?
This has come up all over the country. People thinking they can start Churches or businesses or schools in/at their homes, without consulting building codes and zoning codes.
Salman was sentenced to 60 days in jail, three years probation and received a $12,180 fine for “the crime.”
I think Mr Salman has had more than one run in with the locals..
:munchin
What is your evidence that Mr. Salman was not in violation of the municipal code? (By her own statement, Mrs. Salman basically admits that she and her husband were in non compliance.)
What is your evidence that the PRC and "other certain other places" use municipal code violations to practice religious discrimination?
From what is stated in the article, there is certainly not enough evidence to indicate one way or other if the Salmans were in violation of the municipal code (depending on what exactly the code states). The city has obviously determined that they were, but that will likely be up for a jury to decide.
As for my initial post on the matter, I perhaps worded it a bit wrong because what I meant to insinuate was that the People's Republic of China, which has been on record ever since the Cultural Revolution as routinely arresting and imprisoning religious groups, has used laws as a cover for their obvious contempt for religion. As for Europe, Christians have been persecuted for speaking out against homosexuality and refusing to accomodate homosexuals for certain services, therefore violating "human rights" laws. Thus, any type of law can be used to justify oppression and conceal underlying discrimination. I have read of instances in China, though I cannot attest as to where I did so and therefore do not have the "evidence" on me, where zoning laws have been used in cases of discrimination.
miclo18d
07-11-2012, 12:54
The first amendment trumps zoning laws in my book.
My neighbors have a party at their house every other weekend and my other neighbor has his 10 grand kids in the pool yelling and screaming just about everyday. It's not against the HOA.
This guys HOA didn't complain. It was a city/munic ordinance that he was creating a fire hazard. he Owns 4.5 acres of land, shouldn't be a parking problem. With only 15-20 people meeting.
"It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."
I'll bet it ends up in front of the SCOTUS.
From what is stated in the article, there is certainly not enough evidence to indicate one way or other if the Salmans were in violation of the municipal code (depending on what exactly the code states). The city has obviously determined that they were, but that will likely be up for a jury to decide.
Google is not broken. <<LINK (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants-to-build-a-church-in-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/)>> <<LINK2 (http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/arizona/azdce/2:2012cv01219/707005/36/)>>
A better article that states about 15 people are there weekly, and they consist of family and friends (article here.) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170007/Father-faces-60-days-bars-hosting-Bible-study-OWN-home-city-rules.html?ICO=most_read_module). I was also peruzing other articles and found two youtube videos (http://global.christianpost.com/news/arizona-pastor-goes-to-jail-holding-home-bible-study-religious-freedom-77909/) the Salmans' posted on the matter. The amount of personnel who participated in this raid was insane. Tax dollars funded that?
I watched the video at the bottom of the story.
1. It looks like a typical residential neighborhood to me. The clip of the agents coming up the driveway shows little room out at the street.
2. The room where they are holding the "Bible Study" sure looks like a church to me. Looks like that room was special built for the "Bible Study".
Yeah, it's a church.
And the zoning guys didn't pop up from nowhere. Somebody on his street complained and after looking at Sigaba's links I can see why.
A 4,200 sf building could hold a lot of folks.
He has big plans for his lot and I can see why the neighbors are not happy.
Google is not broken. <<LINK (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-01-17/news/michael-salman-wants-to-build-a-church-in-his-backyard-his-neighbors-aren-t-buying-it/)>> <<LINK2 (http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/arizona/azdce/2:2012cv01219/707005/36/)>>
Thank you for the links. They have provided additional information that was not present in the initial article. However, I would still prefer to wait until a subsequent hearing is had on the matter before commenting further.
Salman et al v. Phoenix, City of et al - Document 36 seems to point in the direction of the Salmans having indeed committed a violation of the municipal code, but that is to be decided in a court of law.
Thank you for the links. They have provided additional information that was not present in the initial article. However, I would still prefer to wait until a subsequent hearing is had on the matter before commenting further.
Salman et al v. Phoenix, City of et al - Document 36 seems to point in the direction of the Salmans having indeed committed a violation of the municipal code, but that is to be decided in a court of law.Did you read the article that you yourself provided in the OP?
Salman was sentenced to 60 days in jail, three years probation and received a $12,180 fine for “the crime.”
Or, if you prefer, there's an article (http://www.christianpost.com/news/ariz-preacher-sentenced-to-jail-after-building-private-church-in-backyard-76946/print.html)from the Christian Post.Ariz. Preacher Sentenced to Jail After Building 'Private' Church in Backyard
Thu, Jun. 21, 2012 Posted: 09:52 AM EDT
Arizona preacher Michael Salman was sentenced to jail for building what the City of Phoenix claims he has been representing as a church on his home property without securing the proper permits. Salman claims the building is not a church and is simply for private Bible study gatherings.
Salman's case, which started in 2007, reached its conclusion this week when a Phoenix court ruled that he was guilty of more than five dozen violations in constructing the building and sentenced him to 60 days in jail and three years of probation.
The preacher, whose ministry is called Harvest Christian Fellowship, claims he was exercising his religious liberty by worshiping at home on his private property, and that his gatherings were no different than when people hold Super Bowl or Christmas parties.
"You're taking a man out of society and sticking him in jail for worshiping at his home," he told a local news station.
The issue with Salman's case was a building in his backyard, which the City said he constructed without abiding by legal codes and safety standards. The building, reportedly used for weekly gatherings of about 30 to 40 people, has a pulpit and chairs. The building, located on his 1.5-acre property, is about 2,000 square feet and was previously labeled a "game room" by Salman but organized on the inside for worship services.
Salman, who describes himself as a "Pastor of the Christian faith" and was ordained in 1996 by Church of God in Christ elders, has spoken out on the case in several videos published to his YouTube Channel.
In the most recent video, uploaded on June 17, Salman appears with his wife, Suzanne Salman, explaining the history of the case, claiming that the City of Phoenix has been "harassing" him since 2007.
Salman reveals in the video that he had to report to the county jail this past Sunday to begin serving his 60-day sentence.
"To the City of Phoenix, I am a criminal and I deserve to go to jail. So we are fighting, we are fighting folks not only for us, but for you," Salman says in the video.
He adds, "I'm glad that I'm not going to jail because I'm a criminal like a thief or a murderer, but that I'm a criminal because I'm a Christian. ... And I am blessed and honored to do this for Christ because my heart is right and because my wife's heart is right."
A California couple experienced a similar situation last year when the City of San Juan Capistrano fined them for holding Bible studies and religious gatherings in their home. Neighbors had complained that the meetings often attracted dozens of people, dozens of vehicles and too much noise. Chuck and Stephanie Fromm were fined $300 for what city officials said was a violation of a municipal code that makes it illegal for religious, fraternal or nonprofit" organizations in residential neighborhoods to hold such gatherings without a conditional-use permit.
Salman says his Harvest Christian Fellowship is "dedicated in preaching the Gospel in the streets, helping the needy and strengthening the saints."
In an effort to shore up support, the Salmans have launched an online petition on Change.org directed to the "Mayor and City Council" of Phoenix. So far, only 93 visitors have signed the petition, which needs 100,000 supporters.
"This is a message that religious practice and the right to assemble for such is a protected right," reads the description accompanying the petition. "Michael Salman should not be in jail for worshiping on his private property with family and friends. FREE MICHAEL SALMAN!!"
miclo18d
07-11-2012, 14:00
:confused:
... Possible, but likely not. See JJ_BPK's post.
So the First Amendment of free speech and freedom of religion should be overridden by a local city ordinance? :confused:
So the First Amendment of free speech and freedom of religion should be overridden by a local city ordinance? :confused:How does the City of Phoenix's municipal code prevent Mr. Salman from practicing his religion or exercising his free speech? Did the Phoenix PD pull the plug on his internet connection and take down his YouTube posts?
Did you read the article that you yourself provided in the OP?
Or, if you prefer, there's an article (http://www.christianpost.com/news/ariz-preacher-sentenced-to-jail-after-building-private-church-in-backyard-76946/print.html)from the Christian Post.
I honestly have no preference whatsoever as to the source of information concerning the case, provided that it is accurate to the best of the news agency's ability as well as being unbiased (which, as we all know, can be difficult to ascertain). As the Christian Post article points out information that I was not aware of, the only plausible scenario left for me as an outsider to the proceedings (or in the event of a Court of Appeals electing to hear the case) is criticism of the court's decision. I choose to refrain from doing so, barring further information emerging that would alter my decision...
Again, thanks for another link.
I honestly have no preference whatsoever as to the source of information concerning the case, provided that is accurate to the best of the news agency's ability as well as being unbiased (which, as we all know, can be difficult to ascertain). As the Christian Post article points out information that I was not aware of, the only plausible scenario left for me as an outsider to the proceedings (or in the event of a Court of Appeals electing to hear the case) is criticism of the court's decision. I choose to refrain from doing so, barring further information emerging that would alter my decision...
Again, thanks for another link.Clear this up for me. The less information you have, the more willing you are to make broad pronouncements about religious persecution in the United States, Asia, and Europe?
http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/pastor-michael-salman-not-going-to-jail-for-preaching-but-for-failing-to-obey-the-law/
mark46th
07-11-2012, 14:21
He can practice freedom of religion, just not in his back yard.
miclo18d
07-11-2012, 14:30
How does the City of Phoenix's municipal code prevent Mr. Salman from practicing his religion or exercising his free speech? Did the Phoenix PD pull the plug on his internet connection and take down his YouTube posts?
What did he do wrong Sigaba? He had a gathering at his house. Is that unlawful in AZ? If he had drank some Margaritas would that have been okay?
Isn't it his right to be able to worship his God? At his home? With other people present? Or does he need to build and establish a church to do that? Does the 1st Amend say freedom of religion OR freedom from religion? If
I could care less if this guy is off his rockers, he has been afforded protections by our Constitution that AZ signed on for on February 14, 1912. Perhaps we were too far gone as a country even back then to understand our 1ST Amendment rights?
Clear this up for me. The less information you have, the more willing you are to make broad pronouncements about religious persecution in the United States, Asia, and Europe?
The more information I have, the more I am willing to alter/adjust my perspective. In the case of the Salmans, the initial article from Fox News Insider did not mention the information that you provided in the Christian Post article. The subsequent information that you provided (and, admittedly, I should have looked up on my own) shed more light on the matter. Thus, I concede to having been mistaken to initally compare their predicament with documented instances of religious persecution, though we cannot know if that were an underlying motive on the part of some of those involved in the investigation, but such an idea is speculation.
As for making "broad pronouncements about religious persecution in the United States, Asia, and Europe", I can provide you with examples of such persecution taking place. As heretofore mentioned, there have been cases in the United Kingdom of religious persons losing employment and being discriminated against because of their opposition to homosexuality. In Asia (China and North Korea), religious persecution has occurred because of an aggressive hostility towards religion on the part of atheistic governments, who perceive it as a threat to the well-being of the State. In the United States, as we have witnessed in these past few months, organizations affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church have sued the government over the Health mandate because they perceive it as a violation of Canonical social teaching.
These are all documented instances of religious persecution. I would gladly make pronouncements on the actions of those involved in these cases...
He can practice freedom of religion, just not in his back yard.
Oh, he's free to practice his religion in his back yard all he wants to........
............it's just the few dozen or more that plan on doing it with him that's the problem.
So the First Amendment and Freedom of Religion Trumps all laws? Some of you seem to imply that?
So some Wiccan who loves the trees is free to wander into your back yard with a few of her friends and dance around your mother tree? Her right to practice her religion trumps your property rights?
What did he do wrong Sigaba? He had a gathering at his house. Is that unlawful in AZ? If he had drank some Margaritas would that have been okay?
Isn't it his right to be able to worship his God? At his home? With other people present? Or does he need to build and establish a church to do that? Does the 1st Amend say freedom of religion OR freedom from religion? If
I could care less if this guy is off his rockers, he has been afforded protections by our Constitution that AZ signed on for on February 14, 1912. Perhaps we were too far gone as a country even back then to understand our 1ST Amendment rights?
miclo 18d - I suggest you go and read all the links that have been posted in this thread. There is more to this than some guy having a few friends over for a Bible Study in his living room.
More like the rec room he built that he is using as a church and the 4,200 sf building he is trying to finish in his back yard. Not to mention all the other stuff he has stated he wants to build. More like a church complex.
[T]hough we cannot know if that were an underlying motive on the part of some of those involved in the investigation, but such an idea is speculation.
In other words, the absence of proof is the proof. Or, as you put it.
Make of it what you want[.]
As for making "broad pronouncements about religious persecution in the United States, Asia, and Europe", I can provide you with examples of such persecution taking place.Your initial argument is not just about religious persecution, about "zoning laws" serving as a mechanism of persecution.These "zoning laws" are exactly the kind of BS propaganda they use to justify their oppression of religious people... So, what is your evidence?
In other words, the absence of proof is the proof. Or, as you put it.
Your initial argument is not just about religious persecution, about "zoning laws" serving as a mechanism of persecution. So, what is your evidence?
The absence of proof is not proof, and I have not insinuated otherwise. If it is your desire that I provide you with explicit evidence of the Chinese government using zoning laws to discriminate against religious groups....I can attempt to do so, but seeing as I have only read about it and did not make note of the source at the time (and did not think I would be asked to cite it at a later date), the onus is automatically on me to convince you that it has occurred.
However, I have already stated that my intention in the original post was instead to draw a comparison between laws being used for discrimination both here and abroad. I provided you with examples of this in the United States, Europe, and Asia.
miclo18d
07-11-2012, 15:03
miclo 18d - I suggest you go and read all the links that have been posted in this thread. There is more to this than some guy having a few friends over for a Bible Study in his living room.
More like the rec room he built that he is using as a church and the 4,200 sf building he is trying to finish in his back yard. Not to mention all the other stuff he has stated he wants to build. More like a church complex.
Like I said in my previous post, if the guy is a nut job that has violence issues or he's a hermit, you can't deny him his rights. If he wants to pray to the goddess of the willow tree or blow gopher dicks to mecca that's his constitutional right, que no?
He built the building in his back yard as a "game room" with all permits valid. The City said he was using it as a church which requires a different zoning, handicap access, emergency exits, fire extinguishers, etc.
Let me ask you this... say we live in AZ and I invite you and some other team members over for some burgers and before we get to drinking some beers and eating we have a prayer and maybe a quick biblical contextual lesson about our brothers that died in combat...imagine we do this weekly... do you think you or I should go to jail because I didn't zone my house as a restaurant...a bar... or a church or because I don't have an ABC fire extinguisher in my 4000 sf out building?
It's not a far stretch from what is happening to this guy.
.....Let me ask you this... say we live in AZ and I invite you and some other team members over for some burgers and before we get to drinking some beers and eating we have a prayer and maybe a quick biblical contextual lesson about our brothers that died in combat...imagine we do this weekly... do you think you or I should go to jail because I didn't zone my house as a restaurant...a bar... or a church or because I don't have an ABC fire extinguisher in my 4000 sf out building?
It's not a far stretch from what is happening to this guy.
Build that 4,200 sf Team House and we'll all come and have a big party.
But if you turn it into a Bar you might have some zoning issues.
What did he do wrong Sigaba?He did not provide adequate parking for his game room.
So some Wiccan who loves the trees is free to wander into your back yard with a few of her friends and dance around your mother tree?
"Is she hot?"
(Dusty seems to be AWOL) ;)
Pat
Badger52
07-11-2012, 15:57
Build that 4,200 sf Team House and we'll all come and have a big party.Hell, I'll even bring the cheese and some micro brews just for a temp straphanger's pass. (1x ODA, which should take the care of the first 17 cases.)
I don't agree that a wiccan's affection for what she perceives as the "mother" tree trumps my property rights, concept of private property being a bedrock as well. However, she could take a sapling and raise her own.
Now, about that 4200sf Team House... first, promise, don't let the Corps design it, it will kill your beer fund.
:D
Build it and they will come.
greenberetTFS
07-11-2012, 16:25
"Is she hot?"
(Dusty seems to be AWOL) ;)
Pat
Hmmmmmmm.........:eek: Can you possibly conceive Dusty with a "no comment"......:rolleyes:
Big Teddy :munchin
Utah Bob
07-11-2012, 16:39
"Is she hot?"
(Dusty seems to be AWOL) ;)
Pat
Now we're getting somewhere!:D
Build it and they will come.
Just inherited a house on a private residential street, and I can tell you straight off the bat, the next door neighboors have six cars...two of which are parked in front of my property ever day/night. This is on weekday nights. Weekends? It is a clusterfu*K. Party's/Gatherings/Get-Togethers...really???
Am sure my mom dealt with it in her own way, but I am disgusted that some people think it is okay to fill up an entire block with their own cars! Especially when they know they are crowding out their neighboors who own their own homes.:munchin
Holly
Utah Bob
07-11-2012, 16:46
Just inherited a house on a private residential street, and I can tell you straight off the bat, the next door neighboors have six cars...two of which are parked in front of my property ever day/night. This is on weekday nights. Weekends? It is a clusterfu*K.
Am sure my mom dealt with it in her own way, but I am disgusted that some people think it is okay to fill up an entire block with their own cars! Especially when they know they are crowding out their neighboors who own their own homes.:munchin
Holly
Residential zoning has a valid purpose. I wouldn't want someone holding constant "Bible study classes" next door to me, or running his plumbing or car repair business out of his house either.
Well............ if I lived in a neighborhood anyway.;)
Personally I think he knows he's in the wrong. One news report states that he has even tried erecting a sign for his "CHURCH" and tried to get non-profit status.
Now imagine what would happen if all these people were attending church and a disaster such as a fire broke out. Does his building meet all the codes to include doors that swing the correct way, or proper fire resistant construction, or even fire extinguishers to name a few?
Now who do you think everyone is going to blame. Well first it will be the man who built the church and held services thee. Then everyone will be crying to the city saying, "Why didn't you make him meet building code"? Someone should have done something.
Just my .02 worth.
miclo18d
07-11-2012, 17:13
I guess it boils down to whether or not he was having an open "church" service for everyone to come and donate tax free funds or just a get together with a bible lesson with some friends.
I think the implication later goes that what happens when you now have to be zoned for a gun store and have a FFL to have a gun on your property.
I wish I had the land to put a 4000sf team hooch on my property as it is, that's bigger than my house, however, if I ever get rich I'll make it happen and you are all invited.
BTW my wife will NOT allow Cartagena Hookers in the house so your dates would have to be legit. She doesn't want the Secret Service turds hanging around mucking up SFs reputation. :cool:
I guess it boils down to whether or not he was having an open "church" service for everyone to come and donate tax free funds or just a get together with a bible lesson with some friends.
JMHO,
This made headlines b/c it involved a "church." So Freedom of Religion," was brought in to the story.
Albeit, the video does seem a bit overkill, showing seven or eight Officers enforcing the violation, it appears to be a story about parking on a residential strret...which I would never have given two cents about....until now.
It really is a big deal being crowded out of your space, or at least, that which you deem yours by way of property rights.
Edit to Add: I thought about this last night and had an idea...
A. The Pastor could designate a meeting area, such as a large parking lot of a nearby Lowe's or Home Depot etc...
B. Have all who wish to attend bible study meet at a pre-set time and park their vehicles.
C. Have a rental bus or simalar standing by to transport all to the residence.
D. While at the residence, have tools and pre-set plans for bringing it up to fire code.
E. Have the attendees complete the work needed, in a timely fashion, and bus them back to their vehicles. (Repeat as many times as neccessary A-E.)
F. When it is complete, have inspections and get proper permits. Find out the maximum allowed occupancey and adjust future meetings accordingly.
1. Here, it might be a good idea to make a flyer of somekind to give to your neighboors detailing your intent to right what was wrong.
G. Have the meeting scheduled, and have the pre-approved number of attendees park and ride, (See A-C)
H. Load up the bus, and have a safe and productive meeting.
Holly:munchin
Just inherited a house on a private residential street, and I can tell you straight off the bat, the next door neighboors have six cars...two of which are parked in front of my property ever day/night. This is on weekday nights. Weekends? It is a clusterfu*K. Party's/Gatherings/Get-Togethers...really???
Am sure my mom dealt with it in her own way, but I am disgusted that some people think it is okay to fill up an entire block with their own cars! Especially when they know they are crowding out their neighboors who own their own homes.:munchin
Holly
I know what you are feeling, as I have had the same problem in the past. But at least where I live, my property ends at the end of my driveway. If someone wants to park in the street in front of my home (as long as they are not blocking my driveway) that is their right, as the street is city property, not private property.
To prove the point: An icy day a few years ago, my son hits a patch of ice, and plows into a truck sitting in the street. My son was ticketed for the accident, but the owners of the car got into much more trouble, as they didn't have insurance for that vehicle. The cops told them that since the car was parked on city property, it was required to have insurance. Had it been sitting in their driveway, no such condition needed to be met.
And as far people filling up the street with their own cars, well it happens. I have 3 drivers in my family, and four vehicles, which means 1 is in the street. When my friends come over they park in the street, which happens on a routine basis. Where else should they park?
When out neighbors have problems (mailbox being blocked) they come and ask us to move the vehicle in question, No biggie. Have you talked to your neighbors yet?
I know what you are feeling, as I have had the same problem in the past. But at least where I live, my property ends at the end of my driveway. If someone wants to park in the street in front of my home (as long as they are not blocking my driveway) that is their right, as the street is city property, not private property.
To prove the point: An icy day a few years ago, my son hits a patch of ice, and plows into a truck sitting in the street. My son was ticketed for the accident, but the owners of the car got into much more trouble, as they didn't have insurance for that vehicle. The cops told them that since the car was parked on city property, it was required to have insurance. Had it been sitting in their driveway, no such condition needed to be met.
And as far people filling up the street with their own cars, well it happens. I have 3 drivers in my family, and four vehicles, which means 1 is in the street. When my friends come over they park in the street, which happens on a routine basis. Where else should they park?
When out neighbors have problems (mailbox being blocked) they come and ask us to move the vehicle in question, No biggie. Have you talked to your neighbors yet?
My first encounter with my neighboors was back in March. Had just pulled in to my mom's house and parked behind her vehicle in the driveway, as she had passed the day before.
Upon my initial exit out of my door, I heard a loud crunch from the street, where one of the vehicles exiting their driveway, backed right into the front of one of their cars parked in the street.
My confidence level at this point dropped, but there were other tasks to attend to and a short timeline to complete them before leaving town.
Jump to this month. I returned to town and made contact with my neighboor as he was exiting his vehicle in his driveway. We exchanged introductions, and he told me about his kids and grandkids that lived there and that I would probobly be seeing lots of folks around. No problem with that or the 1970's dilapidated motor home he owns that at least is always in front of his house.
He parks two of his vehicles in front of my yard, with just enough space for me to get in and out of my driveway.
I have since learned that this particular neighboor has had problems with law enforcement in the past. The house directly across from him even installed a camera over their garage which faces his house, and monitors "activity"?
There is a considerable amount of trash and debris strewn around his yard, which stands out on the block of nicely maintained homes and yards.
My goal is to be as amicable as possible with him, as my house is vacant, and I do not want him to think I have a problem with him.
Right now, am in Hide and Watch/Wait and See mode:munchin...as I am fixing up my house.
Holly
Destrier
07-12-2012, 07:04
My Western neighbor is a pastor in Rochester, NY. He has owned his 94 acres now for a few decades compared to my 5 years here. He has sectioned off 35 acres of it on the North end, with a right of way down his Eastern edge / my Western edge all the way to it.
He has indicated he wished to start a 'fresh start' program complex for guys getting out of prison.
I guess I just need to keep moving farther North to find a quiet place to retire.
My first encounter with my neighboors was back in March. Had just pulled in to my mom's house and parked behind her vehicle in the driveway, as she had passed the day before.
Upon my initial exit out of my door, I heard a loud crunch from the street, where one of the vehicles exiting their driveway, backed right into the front of one of their cars parked in the street.
My confidence level at this point dropped, but there were other tasks to attend to and a short timeline to complete them before leaving town.
Jump to this month. I returned to town and made contact with my neighboor as he was exiting his vehicle in his driveway. We exchanged introductions, and he told me about his kids and grandkids that lived there and that I would probobly be seeing lots of folks around. No problem with that or the 1970's dilapidated motor home he owns that at least is always in front of his house.
He parks two of his vehicles in front of my yard, with just enough space for me to get in and out of my driveway.
I have since learned that this particular neighboor has had problems with law enforcement in the past. The house directly across from him even installed a camera over their garage which faces his house, and monitors "activity"?
There is a considerable amount of trash and debris strewn around his yard, which stands out on the block of nicely maintained homes and yards.
My goal is to be as amicable as possible with him, as my house is vacant, and I do not want him to think I have a problem with him.
Right now, am in Hide and Watch/Wait and See mode:munchin...as I am fixing up my house.
Holly
Yikes!
AngelsSix
07-13-2012, 14:45
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/michael_salman_is_not_in_jail.php
Despite what's being said by Fox News and Christian news outlets about Phoenix pastor Michael Salman, he's not in jail for hosting bible studies at his place.
The former gang member is in jail for breaking the law -- again.
Salman told the City of Phoenix twice that he wasn't building a church in his backyard, then went ahead and built a church that was found responsible for 96 civil code violations, most of them related to how much of a fire hazard the building was.
There's been so much B.S. from Salman and his supporters about how he's being persecuted for his religion that the city has actually put out a fact sheet explaining Salman's disregard for city ordinances, his decision to ignore the repeated warnings from the city, and how this whole mess has absolutely nothing to do with Salman's religion.
Salman told the city in 2007 that he was building a garage in his backyard. He did not build a garage in his backyard.
"Mr. Salman had regular gatherings of up to 80 people," the city says. "He held services twice a week and collected a tithe at the services. The building that he held services in had a dais and chairs were aligned in a pew formation. He held himself out as a being a church through the media (Harvest Christian Church) and claimed a church status for tax exemption purposes on his property."
That's a church.
I wouldn't want one of my neighbors building a "church" in my backyard either. I was in the works to buy a ten acre lot well off the road out in the boonies until I looked up who my "neighbors" were. One side was a paper company, who used the acreage to grow trees (fine by me), the back of the lot was a defunct set of RR tracks, the lot closer to the road than me belonged to a "church" which hadn't been built. Needless to say, the deal was promptly cancelled.
Just following up. Source is here (https://www.azag.gov/press-release/horne-fines-restitution-phoenix-pastor-and-his-family-who-defrauded-arizona-government).Horne: Fines, Restitution For Phoenix "Pastor" And His Family Who Defrauded Arizona Government Agencies
PHOENIX (Monday, February 04, 2013) -- A self-styled Phoenix pastor and his wife who gained notoriety in 2012 for a well-publicized zoning battle involving the home-based location for their religious services, have been sentenced along with the man’s brother for offenses related to AHCCCS fraud, Attorney General Tom Horne announced today.
39 year-old Michael Salman, his 34 year-old wife, Suzanne Salman, and his 37 year-old brother, Frank Salman, were sentenced to probation in Maricopa County Superior Court last week. They will also pay fines and restitution.
“I am pleased with the outcome of this case,” Horne said. “When people commit fraud against a state agency that is designed to provide assistance to those who are truly in need, it is those taxpayers and people who really need the aid that get ripped off. These kinds of schemes will not be tolerated.”
Michael and Suzanne Salman lied about their household income to the Arizona Department of Economic Security (DES) and received health insurance benefits through the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCCS) for themselves and their children.
Between 2008 and 2012 the Salmans submitted false information regarding their household income on applications for AHCCCS benefits and also submitted false statements about their employment with Bureau of Merchant Services – an entity whose initial board of directors consisted only of Michael and Suzanne Salman.
Between May 2007 and March 2012, Frank Salman misrepresented his income to DES in order receive AHCCCS health insurance benefits for himself, his spouse and his children. He also reported to AHCCCS that he was employed by NBMS.
Prior to sentencing Michael and Suzanne Salman paid AHCCCS full restitution of $73,808.92. Michael Salman pled guilty to one count of Theft, and one count of Forgery, both class 4 felonies, and was sentenced to three years probation for each count. Salman was also ordered to pay a fine of $9,200.00 and complete 40 hours of community service. Suzanne Salman was sentenced to six months probation and ordered to perform 40 hours of community service.
Frank Salman, paid AHCCCS full restitution of $45,304.16 prior to sentencing. Frank Salman pled guilty to one count of Theft, a class 6 felony and was sentenced to one year of probation and ordered to perform 20 hours of community service.
This matter was handled by Assistant Attorney General Beverly Rudnick. This case was investigated by the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System’s Office of the Inspector General.