View Full Version : Army’s Top NCO Talking Radical Reforms to Uniforms, Grooming
BMT (RIP)
03-14-2012, 14:52
http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/07/armys-top-nco-talking-radical-reforms-to-uniforms-grooming/
Comment's for this story are something else.
BMT
Well, at least your new dress and appearance regulation does not mandate that women shave their legs, like the new AF one does. :)
I understand the need to ensure we look like a professional force, but one comment struck me: The army has a epidemic of suicides, reduction in force into an shitty economy, issues with PTSD being overturned to save money etc, and this is what leadership is focused on?
The Army is not alone in this. Last time I was at Al Udied, the morale on that base was so low they were starting to dig. And it all came from inane things leadership saw as issues. There were CMSgts stationed there whose only purpose in life was to ensure airmen were following uniform policies. Better make sure you have your disco belt on, better make sure your backpack had it's disco belt on. No flip flops back and forth from tents to the shower, actually no flip flops allowed anywhere. ETC ETC. When SNCOs have nothing better to do during wartime than to site uniform infractions, it is time to pack up and go home, we have been there too long.
"Men can't wear makeup or nail polish."
I remember that being a particularly contentious subject back when I was on AD.
Not.
greenberetTFS
03-14-2012, 15:57
"Men can't wear makeup or nail polish."
I remember that being a particularly contentious subject back when I was on AD.
Not.
I don't know about that Dusty,if the guy is gay and wants to look feminized I thought the "New" Army would permit(allow?)it?.............:confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
cat in the hat
03-14-2012, 16:22
so we have a government slowly taking away our pay, allowances and earned benefits and the SMA's biggest concern is that I wear a belt in my civilian pants when off duty.
Dozer523
03-14-2012, 16:29
so we have a government slowly taking away our pay, allowances and earned benefits and the SMA's biggest concern is that I wear a belt in my civilian pants when off duty. He might add "no one can go off the FOB alone", now.
Tattoo's? Could have seen that one coming. We've talked about them for years.
But looking at the changes as a whole for the guys - I don't really see much difference from the old regs. Just some touchups and dusting here and there.
Hey - look at the bright side - they ain't proposing that the Army goes back to black boots you can spit shine - YET.
ECUPirate09
03-14-2012, 18:56
Sleeve, half-sleeve and quarter-sleeve tattoos “that are visible to the eye” when in the PT shorts and t-shirt are banned. Soldiers currently with the sleeve tattoos “will be allowed to retain them.”
Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/07/armys-top-nco-talking-radical-reforms-to-uniforms-grooming/#ixzz1p8tXvmN7
So if someone with these was trying to enlist, he/she would need to have those tattoo sleeves removed before signing a contract/shipping?
So if someone with these was trying to enlist, he/she would need to have those tattoo sleeves removed before signing a contract/shipping?
Sounds like it. What bothers me is, if SHTF and I get called back in to teach 'cruits how to load magazines, I'll have to get the portrait of Wes Studi burnt off my ass. :D
Oldrotorhead
03-14-2012, 19:29
Sounds like it. What bothers me is, if SHTF and I get called back in to teach 'cruits how to load magazines, I'll have to get the portrait of Wes Studi burnt off my ass. :D
Get that on video.:D
This happened in the 1970's and as far as I know every time there id a RIF.
Regardless of whether or not I agree, I understand where he is coming from with respect to most of these issues.
Break.
The civilian clothing ideas, saluting off duty at walmart, the back pack one strap/black only comeback, and punishment under UCMJ for uniform violations are.............interesting.
That will look good later in life.
Felony Conviction under the UCMJ
Crime: Didn't wear a belt with my jeans
John_Chrichton
03-14-2012, 19:47
The link seems to not be working. Every other blog out there links back to the nonworking site. Could someone repost the article?
So, sideburns no lower than the top of the ear.. I'm reading "no sideburns" here.
Males clean shaven on and off duty. I'm reading "no mustaches" here..
Yep.. that will clean up the army and make them shine in garrison..
Next thing you know we'll be starching our ACUs and having courtesy patrols for Sergeants Time.
Mr Furious
03-14-2012, 20:30
Prine's site appears to be down, so I can't view the article right at the moment.
It does look as if the SMA's facebook page has been getting some inquiries about the pending changes that are being staffed.
(a couple screen captures attached)
So, sideburns no lower than the top of the ear.. I'm reading "no sideburns" here.
Males clean shaven on and off duty. I'm reading "no mustaches" here..
Yep.. that will clean up the army and make them shine in garrison..
Next thing you know we'll be starching our ACUs and having courtesy patrols for Sergeants Time.
Yup, if you let the little violations go, bigger ones are sure to follow. I'll bet that family murdering SOB in Afghanistan was one of them fellas that used TWO STRAPS on his backpack. Wasn't a black one either, it was BROWN. I'm telling you, this tattoo'd belt-less rabble needs the whip!
Surgicalcric
03-14-2012, 21:06
So, sideburns no lower than the top of the ear.. I'm reading "no sideburns" here...
I am reading high and tight because thats the only haircut that looks worth a damn without sideburns.
Glad I will be back to M-day status shortly.
Glad I will be back to M-day status shortly.
Not sure how that saves you, technically.
Nevermind. I can see reasons to get exempted from some of the grooming stuff depending on one's civ job.
kingfish
03-14-2012, 21:14
Any mention of women not being allowed to wear a thong? :D
Well, put those of us deemed undisciplined and unprofessional back up on the shelf. Let us know when you need us again. We'll be ready.
1stindoor
03-15-2012, 00:23
I couldn't get the site to load either. Has anyone seen the new proposals or the slide show that was mentioined?
ETA: Site's back up again...interesting reading.
Badger52
03-15-2012, 06:50
Plus ca change...
:rolleyes:
Ripples of change, era to era, Joni Mitchell's Circle Game. I've nothing against standards & Soldiers having their stuff straight. But the continued and increasing emphasis on the visual rather than operational substance - and the human capital it takes to achieve that - will put us back into that "going with the Army you have" mode. There is no collective will to have that capability.
There is a very dear cost to not having a toolkit that makes the world take pause. There are historical benefits to having both the scalpel and the BFH, with or without starch.
Anybody ever read "Home To Nanette" in Robin Moore's The Green Berets? The more things change... ;)
And so it goes...
Richard :munchin
Any mention of women not being allowed to wear a thong? :D
That reg would have to apply the male soldier now, as well.
That reg would have to apply the male soldier now, as well.
Hey...I worked hard to earn my Thong, Man's, Wool, Rifle Green 297, DLA 100-85-C-0677. :rolleyes:
Richard :munchin
Streck-Fu
03-15-2012, 09:15
Any mention of women not being allowed to wear a thong? :D
Women considering the wearing of a thong must submit photographic justification for such authorization.
cat in the hat
03-15-2012, 13:16
Any mention of women not being allowed to wear a thong? :D
for the average woman in an Army uniform, wearing a thong should be a crime.
The Reaper
03-15-2012, 18:28
for the average woman in an Army uniform, wearing a thong should be a crime.
Absolutely true, on Ft. Bragg, anyway.
TR
TrapperFrank
03-15-2012, 19:40
Another under employed E9, what will that rascal think of next?
tom kelly
03-15-2012, 20:18
Another under employed E9, what will that rascal think of next?
It better not be what the 1st SMA thought & did.... That is how SMA George Dunaway (Decd.) became the 2nd SMA. TK
defense cuts...
...whats easier than making folks NOT want to serve?
If they leave, you dont have to give them bonus money or severence pay.
...then you can focus your attention on fucking over the ones that won't leave quietly.
BMT (RIP)
03-18-2012, 06:17
Check out the current SMA, Raymond F. Chandler II. Super leg. Tanker. And -- get this -- in an Army that is going on 11 years of war, he spent 2 six-month stints in one of the war zones.
BMT
Though I may share his last name....totally not a fan. Being one of "those guys with tattoos" I'm slightly concerned about what he is trying to accomplish. Why should a soldier be titled unprofessional just because he has tattoos? I have met some damn fine NCO's that have tattoos.
Though I may share his last name....totally not a fan. Being one of "those guys with tattoos" I'm slightly concerned about what he is trying to accomplish. Why should a soldier be titled unprofessional just because he has tattoos? I have met some damn fine NCO's that have tattoos.
If it's in the regs, you do it. If you've got the rank, you can change the regs. SOS.
If it's in the regs, you do it. If you've got the rank, you can change the regs. SOS.
That I understand and I would do what is needed to comply as I rather enjoy what I do. Just seems a little odd that they issued an ALARACT that allowed members to enter the service with tattoos because we needed them and now he (and I am using that in a general term as I understand that it is not just his decision) is trying to essentially force out good soldiers who joined based on that and sacrificed just like every other soldier.
Though I may share his last name....totally not a fan. Being one of "those guys with tattoos" I'm slightly concerned about what he is trying to accomplish. Why should a soldier be titled unprofessional just because he has tattoos? I have met some damn fine NCO's that have tattoos.
There are some civilian jobs who make the Army Reg's look like kiddie rules.
Badger52
03-21-2012, 12:51
Check out the current SMA, Raymond F. Chandler II. Super leg. Tanker. And -- get this -- in an Army that is going on 11 years of war, he spent 2 six-month stints in one of the war zones.
BMTThanks; daughter just got back this AM from 5th tour, having started her odyssey in Nov '01. Coulda gone all day without reading that.
Cobweb-infested hallowed halls.
Ret10Echo
03-21-2012, 17:36
.....and having courtesy patrols for Sergeants Time.
The horror.....
This week's Army Times has a run down on the changes.
Most appear to be a slight tightening of things that were but...............
A few of them has this FOG scratching his head going WTF?
Sideburns no lower than where the ear attaches to the head?
Clean shaven even on leave? Who's going to check up on you?
Tattoos? Yeah, you guys with them better put on the PT T-Shirt and look in the mirror.
"You chose to join the Army," Chandler said. "The Army didn't chose to join you."
The Reaper
04-09-2012, 16:56
These policies will last until they need soldiers to join up again.
In 2007, they didn't really care what tats you had, how much you weighed, or how long your sideburns were.
TR
Hey, I'm all for the 1/4 inch nails for females. It irritates me when I'm trying to get some clerk/county employee/government worker to get something done for me and they have those 4 inch claws with their paw wrapped around a pencil pecking away at a computer one letter at a time.
And no makeup for guys......
Once again I stand dumbfounded by beurocracy and its attempts to appear intelligent, all the while failing on such a monumental scale. :confused:
"Soldier will be clean shaven on and off duty."
When did having a baby face become the sign of professionalism?:munchin
.....and who exactly is going to find me on leave and make sure that I shave every day? Is it not enough that I shave daily when I report for duty?
Who's ready to see a dramatic spike in shaving profiles?
...and who exactly is going to find me on leave and make sure that I shave every day? Is it not enough that I shave daily when I report for duty?
You are right, that is kinda stupid isn't it. What we will need to fix THAT is more MILCON to build more housing so that EVERYONE can live on post and then once that's complete we'll require everyone to have a pass to leave post. That way if on post there will be plenty of people to make on the spot corrections and for those leaving post, they will have to stop by the CQ desk to get a pass before they can leave post. Then the CQ can check to make sure that you are clean shaven.
It's that simple.
What we need is more soldiers that are squared away and know how to shave.
...you dirty bunch of undisciplined hippies.
I think this is a step in the wrong direction. We are already treated like children and more rules aren't going to change anything. What we need to do is start putting responsibility on soldiers instead of handholding every step of the way. The best way I could think of would be to drop 1 or 2 of the don't rape or don't drink and drive classes we get every month and replace them with training on how to exercise properly. Then, get rid of organized PT and allow soldiers to work out on their own after morning accountability.
After a certain time period PT scores could be used as one of the criteria for reducing the force.
This would serve a couple purposes.
1. The people that are always skipping out on PT, on perma-profiles, and generally missing from work would be the same people that don't bother working out and would hopefully be removed from the Army instead of good soldiers that have made a mistake here and there.
2. It might help to put some balls back into the Army. I hope I don't offend anyone and I don't mean this in a sexist way, but I sincerely believe the inclusion of females in the military has reduced males to a female standard of physical fitness and general "manliness".
I hate to say it but looking back I am 100% certain that a HS wrestling camp I attended was more difficult than SFAS. Most of our regular practices at school were harder than log and rifle PT. On the all male wrestling teams I have been a part of, quitters and the weak were peer-pressured into performing at the same level as everyone else. This peer pressure is all but banned in the military and the results are plain for all to see.
I enlisted older than most and when I got to my first unit I started getting called things like "high speed" and "super soldier". The was I see it I am just a grownup that takes care of my own business without acting like a HS kid. I found it amazingly pathetic that my behaviour was exceptional instead of the standard.
This is turning into a bit of a ramble. The point I am trying to make is that we should be tightening the standards on acting like a grownup and a soldier instead of making more rules.
Good point in the response to the writers questions...
The SMA does not make policy decisions so these changes have been submitted for review and decision to the Army Staff.
These points amuse me...
Soldiers can’t “walk while engaged in activities that would interfere with the hand salute and greeting of the day or detract from a professional image
So, carrying groceries, moving boxes or furniture, loads of equipment and so on are out... sweet, ease the enlisteds work. Some of the married will be happy they don't have to carry the diaper bag any more.
Uniform pressing, how could anyone tell, laundry tags are easily removed.
Saluting, well I remember when certain leadership would begin a hard line on saluting in the past. Saluting became frequent and enthusiastic because after all, each salute rendered must be returned respectfully. So a group of one salute suddenly becomes an extended file of five, twelve individual salutes.
I can see right now some individual cutting the belt loops off their pants and getting some color significant suspenders, or other clownish design.
You are right, that is kinda stupid isn't it. What we will need to fix THAT is more MILCON to build more housing so that EVERYONE can live on post and then once that's complete we'll require everyone to have a pass to leave post. That way if on post there will be plenty of people to make on the spot corrections and for those leaving post, they will have to stop by the CQ desk to get a pass before they can leave post. Then the CQ can check to make sure that you are clean shaven.
It's that simple.
I like where you're going with this. That will open the housing oppurtunities off post for the civilians, thus strengthening the housing market right?
So if someone with these was trying to enlist, he/she would need to have those tattoo sleeves removed before signing a contract/shipping?
I was one of the people that this new regulation affected.
I have a sleeve on one arm. Nothing racist, sexist, ect. It was completely in regulation with standards before this new rule. I went to the ARMY AD recruiter's office in Dec '11 and was told they could not allow me to enlist or even start any paperwork because I had a sleeve. It did not matter that I was physically fit, had a bachelors degree, and no legals troubles that would hinder me from enlisting. They saw the sleeve and everything stopped right there.
So, I contacted a laser removal center and started having sessions to remove the tattoo from the elbow to the wrist. (I wanted to serve my country. I wanted an 18X contract. I wanted a shot at SFAS and I was not going to let anything stop me). It cost me $1500 per session and its very painful. I was going every six weeks or so to get another session done.
After a few sessions I was talking with a friend, who is in the ARNG, and he suggested I go talk to a ARNG recruiter because they have the 18X program and he was pretty sure they did not have the same tattoo policies as active ARMY. I never considered the ARNG before because I wanted a full time job in the military and really did not know they had an 18X program. But, after the Laser Removal Doc said there was no guarantee she could completely remove everything AND it would take at least 10 sessions to remove a lot of it I decided to go talk to the ARNG recruiter. After talking with the ARNG recruiter I decided to enlist with them.
I realize regulations are put in place for a reason but some of them are causing quality applicants to be turned away. An applicant can score very high on the ASVAB, have a bachelors degree, be in very good shape, want to serve his/her country but is turned away because they have a sleeve tattoo. A tattoo that cannot be seen in ACUs and has no effect on their performance as a soldier.
I apologize if I am out of my lane but I just wanted to share my experience. Also, the AD recruiter never told me I had to get my tattoo removed. He just said there was no way I could enlist if I had a sleeve. No work-arounds, no waivers, nothing. I made that choice to start the removal process. In the end, I got my contract so I really have no complaints. But, my recruiter has said there is talk about changing the policies for ARNG regarding tattoos. I imagine this is just for Non Prior Service applicants since so many PS guys have tattoos. I could be wrong.
I was one of the people that this new regulation affected.
Life is not fair. The Army is often less so.
Well, at least your new dress and appearance regulation does not mandate that women shave their legs, like the new AF one does. :)
Ma'am, no one want's to see inch worms thru a ladies stockings. :D
I think this is a step in the wrong direction. We are already treated like children and more rules aren't going to change anything. What we need to do is start putting responsibility on soldiers instead of handholding every step of the way. The best way I could think of would be to drop 1 or 2 of the don't rape or don't drink and drive classes we get every month and replace them with training on how to exercise properly. Then, get rid of organized PT and allow soldiers to work out on their own after morning accountability.
After a certain time period PT scores could be used as one of the criteria for reducing the force.
This would serve a couple purposes.
1. The people that are always skipping out on PT, on perma-profiles, and generally missing from work would be the same people that don't bother working out and would hopefully be removed from the Army instead of good soldiers that have made a mistake here and there.
2. It might help to put some balls back into the Army. I hope I don't offend anyone and I don't mean this in a sexist way, but I sincerely believe the inclusion of females in the military has reduced males to a female standard of physical fitness and general "manliness".
I hate to say it but looking back I am 100% certain that a HS wrestling camp I attended was more difficult than SFAS. Most of our regular practices at school were harder than log and rifle PT. On the all male wrestling teams I have been a part of, quitters and the weak were peer-pressured into performing at the same level as everyone else. This peer pressure is all but banned in the military and the results are plain for all to see.
I enlisted older than most and when I got to my first unit I started getting called things like "high speed" and "super soldier". The was I see it I am just a grownup that takes care of my own business without acting like a HS kid. I found it amazingly pathetic that my behaviour was exceptional instead of the standard.
This is turning into a bit of a ramble. The point I am trying to make is that we should be tightening the standards on acting like a grownup and a soldier instead of making more rules.
I work with a lot of young kids. They were given participation trophies and ribbons their entire life. Why is anyone surprised.
The Reaper
08-14-2012, 16:46
I think we might have mentioned this before here.
Actions have consequences.
Predictably, things that were prohibited before the war started became waiverable during the lean recruiting years, and became enforced again when the war wound down and we had more people serving than we needed.
News flash!
Planning to join the military?
Dont get all tatted up.
TR
Life is not fair. The Army is often less so.
Roger that Sir.
Ma'am, no one want's to see inch worms thru a ladies stockings. :D
Come on now :)
Dreadnought
08-14-2012, 21:24
Some of these are just silly.
"No tinted or opaque lenses unless medically authorized."
What!
And the sideburn proposal sounds absolutely stupid looking. I doubt this/these will happen.