Permit to Kill Bald Eagles

[cbtengr]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/wyoming-native-american-tribe-gets-rare-permit-to-kill-bald-eagles/

I have some very mixed emotions about this subject, on one hand I am totally repulsed by the thought of anyone deliberately killing our national symbol. On the other hand I believe strongly in religious freedom. The article brings out some good points, ones that I were not aware of.

"William Downes, then a federal judge in Wyoming......... Downes said the federal government generally refuses to grant permits to tribal members to kill eagles even though federal regulations say such permits should be available.

"Although the government professes respect and accommodation of the religious practices of Native Americans, its own actions show callous indifference to such practices," Downes wrote."

Since this is a Native American issue and I believe that Native Americans truly respect our national symbol I guess I can supprt this decision on a very limited basis. Should the powers to be get too liberal in the issuance of permits I would rethink my position. I do find it hard to believe though "that the birds American Indians receive from a federal depository were rotten, or otherwise unfit for use in religious ceremonies."
This had better not be the case.

[Dusty]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/wyoming-native-american-tribe-gets-rare-permit-to-kill-bald-eagles/

I have some very mixed emotions about this subject, on one hand I am totally repulsed by the thought of anyone deliberately killing our national symbol. On the other hand I believe strongly in religious freedom. The article brings out some good points, ones that I were not aware of.

"William Downes, then a federal judge in Wyoming......... Downes said the federal government generally refuses to grant permits to tribal members to kill eagles even though federal regulations say such permits should be available.

"Although the government professes respect and accommodation of the religious practices of Native Americans, its own actions show callous indifference to such practices," Downes wrote."

Since this is a Native American issue and I believe that Native Americans truly respect our national symbol I guess I can supprt this decision on a very limited basis. Should the powers to be get too liberal in the issuance of permits I would rethink my position. I do find it hard to believe though "that the birds American Indians receive from a federal depository were rotten, or otherwise unfit for use in religious ceremonies."
This had better not be the case.

Well, the Northern Arapaho vote is salted down.

[SLVGW360]

I don't really have an opinion on the giving of permits for taking Bald Eagles. I am not that familiar with the provisions of the Eagle Act which is still in effect for both Bald and Golden Eagles. Here is a link for additional information: http://www.fws.gov/midwest/MidwestBird/EaglePermits/index.html

I do know that the US Fish and Wildlife Service can and will issue permits for protected species in specific instances.

I have personally delivered or shipped eagles and other raptors to the USF&WS repository in Denver. I can say that many are not in the greatest condition. We tend to acquire them from being hit while scavenging along roadways, electrocutions, collisions, etc. From these types of sources they might be on the ground for quite sometime before we even know about them. Unless they are way beyond salvage, we still send them. That doesn't mean that they are pristine. Some poaching does occur, but we don't get many that way. Sometimes one will pick up lead and we'll find them sick. Those we can deliver quite fresh.

FWIW

RB

[The Reaper]

Well, it was either a couple of eagles, or a couple more casino permits.

TR

[TOMAHAWK9521]

The tribes should simply wait beneath those eye-sore windmills that are cluttering up the western landscapes. Those suckers whack eagles and all other types of birds out of the sky all the time. And since the windmills are part of the green energy industry, it's all natural. So, in a way, the tribes don't even need to ask, they can let the government's program kill the birds for them.

[PSM]

The tribes should simply wait beneath those eye-sore windmills that are cluttering up the western landscapes. Those suckers whack eagles and all other types of birds out of the sky all the time. And since the windmills are part of the green energy industry, it's all natural. So, in a way, the tribes don't even need to ask, they can let the government's program kill the birds for them.

Yep, twenty or thirty years from now they will be rusted remnants of another failed leftist policy!

My sister's father-in-law, in Snyder, TX, was invited to a meeting with an "alternative energy" provider. They offered $13,000 a windmill to the land owners. My sister asked what would happen if they went tits up. Who would remove the windmills? They ignored her question. Her FIL declined the offer and encouraged his neighbors to do the same.

My sister was a "Land Man" for a law office in Amarillo, TX, that handled oil and gas leases in TX, NM, OK, CO, and KS. She knows things. ;)

Pat

[Team Sergeant]

I've submitted a few requests to take "radical politicians" based on my religious beliefs and have been denied every time.


Yeah, I'm sure the indians need to kill Eagles for their religious services. Just like they need to kill whales once a year with a modern .50 cal rifle. I'm sure that's how they did it in the old days. Tradition is a wonderful thing. I'd be interested in how they take the eagles, 5 bucks say they do it with "modern weapons".

You know I find the killing of our national symbol very offensive. But I had to change the name of my little league team from the Fighting Arapaho's to the "Dead Eagles" because "they" found it offensive.

[Dusty]

You know I find the killing of our national symbol very offensive. But I had to change the name of my little league team from the Fighting Arapaho's to the "Dead Eagles" because "they" found it offensive.

lololol Send me a pic of the jersey, Team Sergeant. My avatar needs updating. Still looks alive.:D

[Papa Zero Three]

I don't want this conversation to degrade into a Race/religion card stereo type argument but I would like to shed some light on this topic and hopefully people can walk away a little bit more enlightened and knowledgable on this subject.

This is one of those things that I don't expect many non Native people to understand or accept as it is contrary to what we as Americans identify with as our identity as a country. As much as Americans hold the Eagle in high regard as a symbol, Native Americans hold it in even higher regard as it is intrinsically tied to who we are, not only as a people/society but spiritually as well. Like any religion and or culture, if you are not familiar with it or it's practices, it may not make sense to you and may seem offensive.

What is being discussed in the article is not about your average hunting permit, where Joe goes out and shoots a deer/elk/bear/turkey, poses and takes pictures with it, has it stuffed and hangs it on the wall like most people are familiar with when they think hunting permit. This is not done for sport nor is it taken lightly by Native Americans that an Eagle is being killed, it is part of a very sacred religious practice and isn't done on a whim or by just anyone whenever they feel like it.

Every part of the Eagle is considered sacred and is treated as such. As the article mentions, typically the Eagle has to be requested from the Government and there is a list, much like an organ donor waiting list, to have one of the Eagles provided. Most of the Eagles are ones that have been discovered after they have died be it natural or otherwise and can be in very rough shape sometimes. When you consider every piece of the Eagle to be sacred and it shows up in a nondescript styrofoam box on dry ice and in some cases the Eagle is mangled or in stages of decomposition, it isn't suitable for use in what is considered a sacred event nor is it the proper way to handle a most sacred and revered animal after it has died. Lets not overlook the fact that in order to even hold this sacred religious event, Native Americans have to literally stand in line and ask the Government permission for these Eagles to do it legally.....in the Governments eyes. Does that sound right to anyone or what anyone should have to go through to practice their religion? This IS America right?


Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with and or understand this, especially given the way people in the world view most religious organizations today and or religions different than their own. However, there are people out there, Americans, Native Americans who see the Eagle as more than just our countries symbolic representation and hold it in higher regard,both as a symbol and spiritually than the average American does. Ones lack of understanding of this religious practice may lead one to believe that it is disrespectful when the fact of the matter is the exact opposite.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

If they're allowed to do it, it should only be one way: Up in the mountains, bare handed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XafAdkZIYKA

Bet there wouldn't be too many takers. ;) Or maybe there would. I'd respect a man with guts enough to go hand to hand with an eagle.



Yeah, I'm sure the indians need to kill Eagles for their religious services. Just like they need to kill whales once a year with a modern .50 cal rifle. I'm sure that's how they did it in the old days. Tradition is a wonderful thing. I'd be interested in how they take the eagles, 5 bucks say they do it with "modern weapons".

[PedOncoDoc]

Yeah, I'm sure the indians need to kill Eagles for their religious services. Just like they need to kill whales once a year with a modern .50 cal rifle. I'm sure that's how they did it in the old days. Tradition is a wonderful thing. I'd be interested in how they take the eagles, 5 bucks say they do it with "modern weapons".

This argument would seem silly if applied to the making of communion wafers using modern ovens (discussions of ritualistic symbolic cannibalism aside), the sewing of religious vestments with modern sewing machines, the mass production of religious texts with modern printing technology and the "Rock n' Roll services" using electric guitars.

IMHO, the use of modern technology in the practicing of one's faith does not cheapen it.

[afchic]

I don't want this conversation to degrade into a Race/religion card stereo type argument but I would like to shed some light on this topic and hopefully people can walk away a little bit more enlightened and knowledgable on this subject.

This is one of those things that I don't expect many non Native people to understand or accept as it is contrary to what we as Americans identify with as our identity as a country. As much as Americans hold the Eagle in high regard as a symbol, Native Americans hold it in even higher regard as it is intrinsically tied to who we are, not only as a people/society but spiritually as well. Like any religion and or culture, if you are not familiar with it or it's practices, it may not make sense to you and may seem offensive.

What is being discussed in the article is not about your average hunting permit, where Joe goes out and shoots a deer/elk/bear/turkey, poses and takes pictures with it, has it stuffed and hangs it on the wall like most people are familiar with when they think hunting permit. This is not done for sport nor is it taken lightly by Native Americans that an Eagle is being killed, it is part of a very sacred religious practice and isn't done on a whim or by just anyone whenever they feel like it.

Every part of the Eagle is considered sacred and is treated as such. As the article mentions, typically the Eagle has to be requested from the Government and there is a list, much like an organ donor waiting list, to have one of the Eagles provided. Most of the Eagles are ones that have been discovered after they have died be it natural or otherwise and can be in very rough shape sometimes. When you consider every piece of the Eagle to be sacred and it shows up in a nondescript styrofoam box on dry ice and in some cases the Eagle is mangled or in stages of decomposition, it isn't suitable for use in what is considered a sacred event nor is it the proper way to handle a most sacred and revered animal after it has died. Lets not overlook the fact that in order to even hold this sacred religious event, Native Americans have to literally stand in line and ask the Government permission for these Eagles to do it legally.....in the Governments eyes. Does that sound right to anyone or what anyone should have to go through to practice their religion? This IS America right?


Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with and or understand this, especially given the way people in the world view most religious organizations today and or religions different than their own. However, there are people out there, Americans, Native Americans who see the Eagle as more than just our countries symbolic representation and hold it in higher regard,both as a symbol and spiritually than the average American does. Ones lack of understanding of this religious practice may lead one to believe that it is disrespectful when the fact of the matter is the exact opposite.

I for one am thankful for your post. As a Catholic who is outraged by the audacity of this administration to try and insert itself into my religion, I find the same to be true of any religion that is treated this way by a government with a First Ammendment that states our ability to practice our religion freely, without intrusion by the government.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

I think those are completely different things. How can you compare killing a living creature to printing a book, baking bread, or playing music?

The Catholic church tortured and murdered thousands in the name of religion. Does that make it right? What about jihadists blowing up innocent people? I mean, they're fighting against the infidel, right? They're just practicing their religion as well. Tell me where you draw the line.







This argument would seem silly if applied to the making of communion wafers using modern ovens (discussions of ritualistic symbolic cannibalism aside), the sewing of religious vestments with modern sewing machines, the mass production of religious texts with modern printing technology and the "Rock n' Roll services" using electric guitars.

IMHO, the use of modern technology in the practicing of one's faith does not cheapen it.

[PedOncoDoc]

I think those are completely different things. How can you compare killing a living creature to printing a book, baking bread, or playing music?

The Catholic church tortured and murdered thousands in the name of religion. Does that make it right? What about jihadists blowing up innocent people? I mean, they're fighting against the infidel, right? They're just practicing their religion as well. Tell me where you draw the line.

TS's argument was not whether to allow the killing of a sacred animal for spiritual practices - it was whether it was okay to use modern techonologies to do so. Several religions have spiritual practices for the killing of animals - I was not debating whether or not to agree with it.

Also I eat animals that have been killed on a regular basis - whether an animal is killed for food or for spiritual beliefs shouldn't make one right and the other wrong, as long as it isn't senseless killing. Comparing the killing of an eagle to the torturing/killing of a person is not a valid argument in my eyes.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

While it's probably not clear from my post (although it is from the one that immediately precedes yours), I'm trying to say the same thing as TS. I feel that technology cheapens and disconnects one from the sacred act of taking life. If all it takes to kill a whale or an eagle is the push of a button, it becomes a video game. There is nothing spiritual about that.

And I eat animals too, but I like and respect them a lot more than I do a lot of people.

I do not agree with killing animals for religious ceremonies, any more than I agree with factory farming. That's my opinion. I don't care if it's a chicken or an eagle. And I do not agree with killing for the sake of killing. Which is what killing an animal for a religious ceremony feels like to me. If it isn't a threat to you, you kill it, you better eat it.






TS's argument was not whether to allow the killing of a sacred animal for spiritual practices - it was whether it was okay to use modern techonologies to do so. Several religions have spiritual practices for the killing of animals - I was not debating whether or not to agree with it.

Also I eat animals that have been killed on a regular basis - whether an animal is killed for food or for spiritual beliefs shouldn't make one right and the other wrong, as long as it isn't senseless killing. Comparing the killing of an eagle to the torturing/killing of a person is not a valid argument in my eyes.

[Team Sergeant]

I feel that technology cheapens and disconnects one from the sacred act of taking life. If all it takes to kill a whale or an eagle is the push of a button, it becomes a video game. There is nothing spiritual about that.


Bingo.......

I'm all for the people to practice their religion.

What I'm against, in all religions is the practice of drawing blood or killing to satisfy or appease their respective gods.

I have no problem killing and eating what you kill. But killing or drawing blood from any animal in the name of any god, IMO, is beyond rational thought.

If I recall correctly just about every religion still has some sort of connection to bloodletting, amazing isn't it.......:munchin

[PedOncoDoc]

While it's probably not clear from my post (although it is from the one that immediately precedes yours), I'm trying to say the same thing as TS. I feel that technology cheapens and disconnects one from the sacred act of taking life. If all it takes to kill a whale or an eagle is the push of a button, it becomes a video game. There is nothing spiritual about that.

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with the statement above. I suspect many hunters who use firearms and bows or other forms of technology more advanced than their "bare hands" to make a kill would too.

And I eat animals too, but I like and respect them a lot more than I do a lot of people.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :)

And I do not agree with killing for the sake of killing. Which is what killing an animal for a religious ceremony feels like to me. If it isn't a threat to you, you kill it, you better eat it.

Again, I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you. Killing an animal to use it (or it's body or parts of its body) for a specific purpose is not senseless in my book - whether or not I agree with said purpose is another matter.

Edited to respond to TS:
What I'm against, in all religions is the practice of drawing blood or killing to satisfy or appease their respective gods.

I have no problem killing and eating what you kill. But killing or drawing blood from any animal in the name of any god, IMO, is beyond rational thought.

The article in the OP suggests the killing of the eagle is not the ceremony itself, but is a means to procure the necessary parts for their ceremony, although I would be surprised to hear that there wasn't a spiritual component of the killing of the eagle from my interactions with Native Americans who observe their traditional spiritual practices. The article also reports of earlier legal action against a tribe member for killing an eagle in order to obtain its body for the annual Sun Dance due to a lack of available resources.

[afchic]

Bingo.......

I'm all for the people to practice their religion.

What I'm against, in all religions is the practice of drawing blood or killing to satisfy or appease their respective gods.

I have no problem killing and eating what you kill. But killing or drawing blood from any animal in the name of any god, IMO, is beyond rational thought.

If I recall correctly just about every religion still has some sort of connection to bloodletting, amazing isn't it.......:munchin

TS, with all due respect, Those of us who are Christians believe Christ gave his body and blood for our salvation. Does that not classify as killing or drawing blood in the name of any god.

I am Catholic and take the body and blood of Christ every Sunday during Communion, is that beyond rational thought?

[Team Sergeant]

TS, with all due respect, Those of us who are Christians believe Christ gave his body and blood for our salvation. Does that not classify as killing or drawing blood in the name of any god.

I am Catholic and take the body and blood of Christ every Sunday during Communion, is that beyond rational thought?

You tell me............:munchin

That might be a gray area....;) as it isn't really bloodletting in the name of a god....;)

Let me ask my Rabbi, the same guy that is not a doctor or even a medical person yet he circumcised me.......

Kidding, I'm not Jewish.....

[Richard]

Bet those Native Americans sure wish they would've done a better job with their immigration control issues back when...

Richard :munchin

[Pete]

Who is a Native American?

Is it based on when your people got here?

Europe was a swarm of cultures moving back and forth - mixing - slaughtering - absorbing. Are there "native" cultures in Europe?

Are who we consider "Native Americans" just cultures that followed other cultures and replaced them?

So to be "native" must suggest a time for being here. Your culture has been here the longest and so is considered "native".

If that's the case then should I have more rights than English speakers since my ancestors - the Vikings - were here in the 10th century?

Interesting concept.

[Dusty]

Bet those Native Americans sure wish they would've done a better job with their immigration control issues back when...

Richard :munchin

lol You could say the same for the race of people from whom the NA's took the land , as well. Ad infinitum.

[badshot]

But killing or drawing blood from any animal in the name of any god, IMO, is beyond rational thought.

dido...

As most here are aware, some folks perspective on their god is anything but rational. This includes some in my family tree dating back to Saint Andrew.

[PSM]

Bet those Native Americans sure wish they would've done a better job with their immigration control issues back when...

Richard :munchin

Then again:



Radical theory of first Americans places Stone Age Europeans in Delmarva 20,000 years ago

By Brian Vastag, Published: February 29

When the crew of the Virginia scallop trawler Cinmar hauled a mastodon tusk onto the deck in 1970, another oddity dropped out of the net: a dark, tapered stone blade, nearly eight inches long and still sharp.

Forty years later, this rediscovered prehistoric slasher has reopened debate on a radical theory about who the first Americans were and when they got here.

Archaeologists have long held that North America remained unpopulated until about 15,000 years ago, when Siberian people walked or boated into Alaska and then moved down the West Coast.

But the mastodon relic found near the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay turned out to be 22,000 years old, suggesting that the blade was just as ancient.

Whoever fashioned that blade was not supposed to be here.

Its makers probably paddled from Europe and arrived in America thousands of years ahead of the western migration, making them the first Americans, argues Smithsonian Institution anthropologist Dennis Stanford.

“I think it’s feasible,” said Tom Dillehay, a prominent archaeologist at Vanderbilt University. “The evidence is building up, and it certainly warrants discussion.”

At the height of the last ice age, Stanford says, mysterious Stone Age European people known as the Solutreans paddled along an ice cap jutting into the North Atlantic. They lived like Inuits, harvesting seals and seabirds.

The Solutreans eventually spread across North America, Stanford says, hauling their distinctive blades with them and giving birth to the later Clovis culture, which emerged some 13,000 years ago.


Full Story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-first-americans-places-stone-age-europeans-in-delmarva-20000-years-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html)

Pat

[Bill Harsey]

PSM,
Doc Stanford, Director of Archeology at the Smithsonian, is a friend of mine.
The Spartan Blades guys and I visited him in his offices last December.
Stanford took a couple hours to take us through the evidence that is the basis for his book, "Across Atlantic Ice".
From a tool making technology point of view it is a very strong theory he is framing in.

Of course some of my native American friends don't think much of this.

[Richard]

Of course some of my native American friends don't think much of this.

Neither do some more recent genetics studies on the matter.

Mitochondrial haplogroup C4c: a rare lineage entering America through the ice-free corridor?
American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 2012 Jan;147(1):35-9. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21614. Epub 2011 Oct 24.

Abstract

Recent analyses of mitochondrial genomes from Native Americans have brought the overall number of recognized maternal founding lineages from just four to a current count of 15. However, because of their relative low frequency, almost nothing is known for some of these lineages. This leaves a considerable void in understanding the events that led to the colonization of the Americas following the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). In this study, we identified and completely sequenced 14 mitochondrial DNAs belonging to one extremely rare Native American lineage known as haplogroup C4c. Its age and geographical distribution raise the possibility that C4c marked the Paleo-Indian group(s) that entered North America from Beringia through the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets. The similarities in ages andgeographical distributions for C4c and the previously analyzed X2a lineage provide support to the scenario of a dual origin for Paleo-Indians. Taking into account that C4c is deeply rooted in the Asian portion of the mtDNA phylogeny and is indubitably of Asian origin, the finding that C4c and X2a are characterized by parallel genetic histories definitively dismisses the controversial hypothesis of an Atlantic glacial entry route into North America.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22024980

Native American Origins Special Section

For many years, anthropologists have asked who the first Americans were, and how they were able to settle the last major habitat open to humans. Now, a special section of the American Journal of Physical Anthropology features seven new papers that use genetics to answer these questions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1002/(ISSN)1096-8644/homepage/native_american_origins_special_section.htm

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

[Bill Harsey]

Richard,
keep watching, this DNA question is far from answered.

[mark46th]

Originally Posted by Richard
Bet those Native Americans sure wish they would've done a better job with their immigration control issues back when...

Richard

If the Native Americans really want to get back to their roots, they should give up horses. The horse didn't get here until the Europeans arrived. Unless they saddled up Eohippus...

FWIW- I don't have any troubles with Native Americans killing Bald Eagles. They taste somewhere between a Spotted Owl and a California Condor.

[Richard]

If the Native Americans really want to get back to their roots, they should give up horses. The horse didn't get here until the Europeans arrived. Unless they saddled up Eohippus...

Not quite - in a Back To The Future sense...:cool:

http://www.discoverseaz.com/History/Horse.html

http://www.livescience.com/9589-surprising-history-america-wild-horses.html

Richard :munchin

[mark46th]

I mentioned Eohippus! He was prehistoric!!

[Richard]

I mentioned Eohippus! He was prehistoric!!

Did you read the articles? Eohippus lived before humans - but there were later forms of Equus in North America which co-existed with the earliest known humans here until the horses disappeared and were later reintroduced by the spanish. ;)

Richard :munchin

[mark46th]

Prehistoric, pre human. Semantics again....