PDA

View Full Version : SMA wants 4-mile run, 12-mile march for PT test


BMT (RIP)
02-15-2012, 18:12
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/army-chandler-proposes-4-mile-run-12-mile-march-pt-test-021312w/

Mo PT!!


BMT

JJ_BPK
02-15-2012, 18:27
If this is implemented as suggested,, Mother has a new way of reducing headcount that can not be considered PC weighted or prejudicial..

:lifter

May work...:munchin

John_Chrichton
02-15-2012, 18:29
:eek:

I think this is a very good thing. It will force people to meet actual standards. I wonder what percentage of the force actually successfully completed a 12 mile ruck march in the last 12 months?

The only issue, of course, is that both the run and the ruck are conducted at a very slow pace. I don't understand why the Army tolerates soldiers within its ranks who cannot meet the 8 min mile/15 min mile for the both events. I don't think being in a support MOS is an excuse for lessening the standard, especially in the current conflict, where there is no defined front line.

Peregrino
02-15-2012, 19:15
Physical fitness is just ONE indicator of quality. Whenever I see leadership (or anyone else) fixated on ONE aspect of the "whole man", I start to wonder if that's their pet peeve because it's the only competence they have.

tom kelly
02-15-2012, 19:29
What are the current requirements for the Basic Airborne Course? Do females get a different testing standard than males?...TK

Last hard class
02-15-2012, 20:39
:eek:


The only issue, of course, is that both the run and the ruck are conducted at a very slow pace. I don't understand why the Army tolerates soldiers within its ranks who cannot meet the 8 min mile/15 min mile for the both events.

Maybe my math is off. Regardless, I don't consider a 15 minute pace slow for a 12 mile ruck with the appropriate weight.



LHC

SF_BHT
02-15-2012, 20:42
They need to add a swim test to better round out the troops.......:eek:

The Reaper
02-15-2012, 20:45
If this is the new standard, how can you lawfully put out a male who does four miles in 30:00, but keep the female who does it in 36:00?

TR

Brush Okie
02-15-2012, 21:01
This is my favorite part.

Chandler said he was not sure whether the ruck march would reach the air assault or expert infantry badge standard. The air assault ruck march is done with full gear, a 30-pound ruck and rifle. The EIB march, largely considered the tougher of the two, has a 35-pound ruck and typically tougher terrain. Both have a three-hour limit.



He is not sure what some of the current standards are but by god he is going to set some new ones.

IMHO they need to concentrate on leadership and skills more than pt

alelks
02-15-2012, 21:26
Maybe my math is off. Regardless, I don't consider a 15 minute pace slow for a 12 mile ruck with the appropriate weight.



LHC

I think that would be a 20 minute per mile pace. :D

That's one way of cutting the number of troops quickly. My only question is what happens when a HUGE number of support troops get thrown out, who's going to support the guys on the front lines?

CloseDanger
02-15-2012, 22:11
It's what guys end up doing in Afghanistan 3 times a week. But ohhh, my knees!

MR2
02-15-2012, 22:18
They need to add a swim test to better round out the troops.......:eek:

That has certainly been a major weeding out factor.

PRB
02-15-2012, 22:29
I always thought a ruck march with an appropriate flesh wound would weed out the snivelers!
You can get carried away with rucking, I know we remember the old '80's yearly stress/qual testing experiments. That sweet ruckmarch from Bragg to Mackall and back with 50lb rucks and equipment.
I suspect a combo of the old test with a dif run would be fine.

mojaveman
02-15-2012, 22:38
I always thought a ruck march with an appropriate flesh wound would weed out the snivelers!
You can get carried away with rucking, I know we remember the old '80's yearly stress/qual testing experiments. That sweet ruckmarch from Bragg to Mackall and back with 50lb rucks and equipment.
I suspect a combo of the old test with a dif run would be fine.

I remember the 50 meter swim test, the standard PT test and then the 12 mile ruck march all back to back.

It amazes me that I could actually do all that at one time in my life, but then I got old...

Box
02-16-2012, 06:19
so...
we have not even instituted the last "new PT test" and now we need another one?

Didn't the US Army just expend a shit ton of time and effort money proving that we needed "burst" fitness and that the new PT was going to be "great"

A shuttle run and a four mile run are at opposite ends of the spectrum if my observations are correct...

TOMAHAWK9521
02-16-2012, 07:11
They need to add a swim test to better round out the troops.......:eek:

Wouldn't that be considered insensitive or discrimination against folks who never learned how to swim or whose body composition makes them either great shark bait or boat anchors? :D

Dozer523
02-16-2012, 08:40
Whenever I see leadership (or anyone else) fixated on ONE aspect of the "whole man", I start to wonder if that's their pet peeve because it's the only competence they have. Sometimes I just log on to see what Peregrino has to say.
If this is the new standard, how can you lawfully put out a male who does four miles in 30:00, but keep the female who does it in 36:00? TR well it would be okay if it was based on in-seem. I know my 30 inch takes a beating compared to Richards 42. I remember the 50 meter swim test, ... that's not physical fitness, that's drown-proofing. Endurance (and skill) won't show til you swim about 500 meters. IMHO

Isshin2
02-16-2012, 09:36
I like the idea of a 4 mile run and a 12 mile ruck. Unfortunately, we would lose more than half of our unit. Most of them are good guys, it’s just World of Warcraft or something similar takes precedence over PT.

I also think there should be a leadership competency evaluation thrown in the mix as well. Maybe with some MOUT or Lanes Training Exercise.

Badger52
02-16-2012, 12:29
I also think there should be a leadership competency evaluation thrown in the mix as well. Maybe with some MOUT or Lanes Training Exercise.Just an observation, if your post-count is correct. You may want to re-read your introductory emails and post an intro in the appropriate thread.

bluenote
02-16-2012, 14:36
Holy Crap. I am all for adding a ruckmarch, but wouldn't this be a nightmare for large units? How many water points and how many medics would a unit have to get set up for a 12 mile route at say, Ft. Benning or Ft. Jackson in the summertime? And the size of just a platoon at some of those BCT and AIT sites can be as many as 140+ knuckleheads. It would be an all day or multi-day event. And besides, if they blocked off the roads I would never make it to Popeyes at the PX for lunch in time.

Streck-Fu
02-16-2012, 15:00
Would the Reserves and Guard be forced to adopt these standards as well? If so, that could open a can of worms when it comes to health and injury claims.
Knowing that part timers have to maintain the fitness standards, adding a longer run and ruck to the requirement increases the likelihood of injury. Currently, when not on drill or duty, the part timers are not covered for injuries. What happens when SSGT Smith pops a knee doing a ruck on his own time to train for the required test?

VAKEMP
02-16-2012, 15:34
The longer run would be a better test of endurance and a “gut check,” Chandler said.

...

Chandler said the Army is about 33 percent fatter than it was 10 years ago. He said some soldiers look like “stuffed sausages” and it’s not because uniform sizes have shrunk. The problem, he said, is that the Army’s body-fat allowance is the most lenient among the services. In fact, the Army allows a level of body fat the American Health Association labels as “obese.”

...

“We are not going to accept obesity as a standard in our Army anymore,” Chandler said.


So, is it a "gut check" or a "gut" check?

If the goal is to weed out the "stuffed sausages", can't you just raise the body-fat allowance standards so those bordering on morbidly obese are administratively separated for failing to meet the standards?

VAKEMP
02-16-2012, 16:08
Gut checks are good, but making them mandatory annual "gut checks" for every soldier?

It reminds me of the leadership of the Mongolian Armed Forces when I was embedded with them. The senior officers had the junior officers and enlisted troops do a 30km ruck with 30kg (66#) packs. The straps for these packs were ropes, not the big comfy padded straps we are used to on ALICE packs and MOLLE gear. It was effective at improving morale; everyone felt great for completing the ruck, especially since the 30kg in those crappy packs sucked but everyone suffered together.

Then again, this was one of their infantry units that also completes 10km boots and utes runs every other day up and over the mountains surrounding the training area, and they run everywhere with full combat loads. I doubt their admin counterparts would be able to perform the same "gut checks", and honestly their jobs do not require the same "gut checks".

John_Chrichton
02-16-2012, 21:29
Gut checks are good, but making them mandatory annual "gut checks" for every soldier?

It reminds me of the leadership of the Mongolian Armed Forces when I was embedded with them. The senior officers had the junior officers and enlisted troops do a 30km ruck with 30kg (66#) packs. The straps for these packs were ropes, not the big comfy padded straps we are used to on ALICE packs and MOLLE gear. It was effective at improving morale; everyone felt great for completing the ruck, especially since the 30kg in those crappy packs sucked but everyone suffered together.

Then again, this was one of their infantry units that also completes 10km boots and utes runs every other day up and over the mountains surrounding the training area, and they run everywhere with full combat loads. I doubt their admin counterparts would be able to perform the same "gut checks", and honestly their jobs do not require the same "gut checks".


I hardly think a 12 mile ruck march and a 4 mile run are "gut checks" compared to what you're describing. Regardless of MOS, are we not Soldiers first? We are and that is why we should be held to the same, tough, basic standard.

Brush Okie
02-16-2012, 22:10
Honestly if they are wanting a ruck march why not use the US forest service standard. 3 miles in 45 min with 45 lb pack wearing all your gear. Man or woman young or old. Seems realistic to me and a good standard.

As has been said before PT stud does not make somebody a good soldier. BTW the way the Army does ht/wt standards does not always reflect true body fat. In fact if a guy is fat as a hog but can pass a PT test why should he be put out. He passed the PT test for christ sake. I remember a black hat in Jump school who was a body builder. He was well over the Ht/Wt standard but I bet his body fat was well below the average soldiers in the Army at the time.

Box
02-16-2012, 22:39
The more I think about it, the more I realize that venting is futile...
...this is just more of the same.

Good soldiers are going to get railroaded out of the Army because of defense cuts.
This is just another way of helping the process along.

At least with a 35 pound ruck I only have about half the weight to carry...

Don't forget to wear your dog tags.

Badger52
02-17-2012, 09:37
Good soldiers are going to get railroaded out of the Army because of defense cuts.
This is just another way of helping the process along.
I think you're in the X-ring sir. Not disputing the benefits of having a fit Army, discriminators of one kind or another have always been used post-conflict era to drawdown and there will be some hemorrhage of experience. At some point we will again "go to war with the Army you have, not what you'd want." Plus ca change...

I've heard experience is what you get right after you needed it.

Dozer523
02-17-2012, 17:47
Carl Prine's take at Line of Departure.com "Now that it slumps back into garrison mentality after more than a decade of war, an increasingly chubby Big Army is mulling reforms to its physical fitness training. “Big Army” might be apt because it’s more than 30 percent flabbier than it was before 9/11. So the new Sergeant Major of the Army, Raymond Chandler – no, that’s really his name – wants the service to go on a diet and get in shape. To make those points, however, he did what all career senior NCOs are prone to do if they’re not closely watched: He opened his vast lifer maw and stupid fell out. Read the hilarious rest here >>> http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/02/15/alpha-papa-foxtrot-tango/#ixzz1mgYARt00

Be sure to read all the way to these suggestions:D 7. Others suggest that we “train the way we fight” and the APFT should reflect that. Fair enough. If you’re a mortar man your PT shall consist of sleeping in the shade of the gun all morning, scratching yourself inappropriately for an hour, and then bitching for the rest of the afternoon about napping too long and how itchy you get in the field. You’ll be tested not only on how well you play cards for hours on end but also the dexterity involved in smuggling iPhones, drink coolers, creepy German midget porn, hammocks, Doritos and other essential gear into the field. Laughing at 11Bs running around while you await a fire mission you know is never going to come is mandatory. Supply bubbas can max 300 by finding the best gear in the world and then lounging around the warehouse looking like a freakin’ SEAL. Bonus points for telling the grunt at the window that you don’t have anything for him so, yeah, he has to suck it up. Additional points if he can see the gear he wants on the pallet behind you. The angrier he gets the better your score. The possibilities are endless!

JTC
02-17-2012, 18:20
Physical fitness is just ONE indicator of quality. Whenever I see leadership (or anyone else) fixated on ONE aspect of the "whole man", I start to wonder if that's their pet peeve because it's the only competence they have.


Well said. Not to downplay the importance of Physical fitness, but usually the guy that puts PT ahead of all other aspects, is a PT stud, but lacking in other significant areas. PT is important, but so is maturity, technical & tactical proficiency, "Be, Know, Do".

Mills
02-19-2012, 09:34
If this is implemented as suggested,, Mother has a new way of reducing headcount that can not be considered PC weighted or prejudicial..

:lifter

May work...:munchin

I agree. The little amount of time that I spend doing PT on FTCKY proper.........is minimal, however whenever I do..........I see way too many soldiers in a sad state of physical fitness. Either walking, or just giving up and stopping.

But at least they all have PT belts on so that they won't get hit by a car on a street that is closed and has road guards........haha.

ShamrockSix
02-23-2012, 18:31
He added that the shuttle run is far more difficult for older soldiers who are not as agile as they once were.

It's interesting that the 49-year-old Sergeant Major seems to be sympathetic to the interests of the older Soldier as he makes his case for tougher PT.

greenberetTFS
02-25-2012, 17:26
It's interesting that the 49-year-old Sergeant Major seems to be sympathetic to the interests of the older Soldier as he makes his case for tougher PT.

I don't know about that,but seriously I personally know a QP whose in his mid-50's,who not only is in excellent(not just in good shape)but also smart enough to have been an "O" on active duty and because he loves what he's doing requested to become an NCO leader to be with his men when they go beyond the wire.........;) Now that's the kind of soldier (leader)we need,too bad there aren't that many left........:D Don't ask me who he is,my lips are sealed......:eek:

Big Teddy :munchin

NoRoadtrippin
02-25-2012, 22:48
I don't think being in a support MOS is an excuse for lessening the standard, especially in the current conflict, where there is no defined front line.

and. . .

I hardly think a 12 mile ruck march and a 4 mile run are "gut checks" compared to what you're describing. Regardless of MOS, are we not Soldiers first? We are and that is why we should be held to the same, tough, basic standard.

If I may, you are incorrect here IMHO. I spent many a year feeling this way as a young ROTC cadet and hard-charging LT. But you know what, no, we aren't all the same Soldier first. No organization, whether Fortune 500 company, janitorial service, or the US Army will ever be able to staff itself with people who will be the ideal candidate willing and able to meet the highest standards of the organization. This is how some people get ahead and some people do not. It's how folks like you strive for SF tabs, and others are fine chilling in the 1st Cav or 3ID for 20 years.

There are plenty of "good" men and women out there that are willing to serve our country and wear the uniform if given the chance. They may like the chance to serve, or the pay, the travel, or job training they can get on Uncle Sam's dime. Good on them. Many of them will never see a 12 mile ruck in 3 hours or a 5 mile run in 40:00. Being willing to do their less glamorous, less demanding job frees up men like you (and I, if I may be so bold) to serve in the positions that do require us to meet the "tough standard." This is why the Army says anything from, what like a 180? (not sure because--probably like yourself--I have never considered the bare minimum I would need to pass) up to a 300 is all GTG for an APFT. That is your "same, tough, basic standard." Instead of saying we ought to all meet the Infantry standard, maybe look at the Infantry standard as really being more like extra credit. They could just do it like places like Ranger School...you do your 54 pushups and get up. If there were to be a change in how the standard is handled that's what it would be. My S1 guys need to be able to do 54 pushups as a basic standard. They don't need to do 75 just because some Infantry or other HSLD unit says that's their standard.

Same thing with this "new" APFT.

frostfire
02-26-2012, 13:44
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/army-chandler-proposes-4-mile-run-12-mile-march-pt-test-021312w/

Mo PT!!


BMT

when/if this takes places, the AMEDD/medcom might cease to exist :D

tom kelly
03-10-2012, 18:49
This is my favorite part.



He is not sure what some of the current standards are but by god he is going to set some new ones.

IMHO they need to concentrate on leadership and skills more than pt

IN the April 2012 issue of Men's Health there is an article on page 110, Title "ARE YOU SPECIAL FORCES FIT ? On a Mission to Save You: America's Warrior Elite Train for Psychological Resistence, Total-Body Fitness, Calm UNDER FIRE, AND BETTER DECISION MAKING WHEN IT COUNTS, HERE'S HOW YOU CAN USE THEIR CUTTING-EDGE TECHNIQUES TO BECOME BETTER AT EVERYTHING YOU DO. Of course there is a 2 page picture of you guessed it 3 Navy Seals walking in knee deep water with the caption "ANSWERING THE CALL" Navy Seals on a training exercise near CORONADO, CA. On page 113 there is another picture of another special operator with a side bar "TACTICS" 1.Build A COMBAT BODY: Army Green Berets, Fort Bragg, NC. 2.EXCEL AS THE ULTIMATE TEAM PLAYER: Air Force Combat Controllers, HULBURT Field, FL. 3. WIN THE MENTAL BATTLE: Marine Corps Critical Skills Operators, Camp Lejeune,NC. 4. PERFORM UNDER FIRE Navy Seals, Naval Base Coronodo,CA. TK.
PS. What happened to the Good Looking Girl Advatars?

robert60446
03-12-2012, 10:49
I'm absolutely amazed by this yet another idea for PT improvements. Tons of money were spend already, and numerous revisions and updates were written to the manuals covering previous "improved PT" idea. I don't get it. One has to remember that this is very time and money consuming process. When you combine this with all the talks about new PT uniform tryouts and upcoming changes, you have to really wonder what is going on here?

33army
03-13-2012, 12:12
IN the April 2012 issue of Men's Health there is an article on page 110, Title "ARE YOU SPECIAL FORCES FIT ? On a Mission to Save You: America's Warrior Elite Train for Psychological Resistence, Total-Body Fitness, Calm UNDER FIRE, AND BETTER DECISION MAKING WHEN IT COUNTS, HERE'S HOW YOU CAN USE THEIR CUTTING-EDGE TECHNIQUES TO BECOME BETTER AT EVERYTHING YOU DO. Of course there is a 2 page picture of you guessed it 3 Navy Seals walking in knee deep water with the caption "ANSWERING THE CALL" Navy Seals on a training exercise near CORONADO, CA. On page 113 there is another picture of another special operator with a side bar "TACTICS" 1.Build A COMBAT BODY: Army Green Berets, Fort Bragg, NC. 2.EXCEL AS THE ULTIMATE TEAM PLAYER: Air Force Combat Controllers, HULBURT Field, FL. 3. WIN THE MENTAL BATTLE: Marine Corps Critical Skills Operators, Camp Lejeune,NC. 4. PERFORM UNDER FIRE Navy Seals, Naval Base Coronodo,CA. TK.
PS. What happened to the Good Looking Girl Advatars?

I'm glad I searched before posting about this article. My question is, does anyone here have experience with the THOR3 program, and if so, is there a workout program that they follow daily that we might be able to acquire?

MtnGoat
03-13-2012, 12:31
Looking at a Army Times I take that SMA wish never made it pass the dream states?

So 4 miler nor the 12 miler are apart of the PT test now?

Dusty
03-13-2012, 12:45
IN the April 2012 issue of Men's Health there is an article on page 110, Title "ARE YOU SPECIAL FORCES FIT ? On a Mission to Save You: America's Warrior Elite Train for Psychological Resistence, Total-Body Fitness, Calm UNDER FIRE, AND BETTER DECISION MAKING WHEN IT COUNTS, HERE'S HOW YOU CAN USE THEIR CUTTING-EDGE TECHNIQUES TO BECOME BETTER AT EVERYTHING YOU DO. Of course there is a 2 page picture of you guessed it 3 Navy Seals walking in knee deep water with the caption "ANSWERING THE CALL" Navy Seals on a training exercise near CORONADO, CA. On page 113 there is another picture of another special operator with a side bar "TACTICS" 1.Build A COMBAT BODY: Army Green Berets, Fort Bragg, NC. 2.EXCEL AS THE ULTIMATE TEAM PLAYER: Air Force Combat Controllers, HULBURT Field, FL. 3. WIN THE MENTAL BATTLE: Marine Corps Critical Skills Operators, Camp Lejeune,NC. 4. PERFORM UNDER FIRE Navy Seals, Naval Base Coronodo,CA. TK.
PS. What happened to the Good Looking Girl Advatars?

Everybody's special now. :rolleyes:

scooter
03-13-2012, 18:47
I'm glad I searched before posting about this article. My question is, does anyone here have experience with the THOR3 program, and if so, is there a workout program that they follow daily that we might be able to acquire?

Our Detachment utilizes the THOR3 program exclusively. There is no set workout I could give you, and the strength and conditioning staff are the key to making the program work. You tell them your fitness goals or mission METL tasks, and they build a program based on that tailored to your individual or team's needs. It's surprisingly good; all of their training methodology comes from the professional athletic world.

After going through six months of the program and seeing its results transfer to Combat/training, I'll never go back. The experience has convinced me that the Army's approach to PT is fundamentally flawed. The 4 mile run that the CSM tossed out there is going the wrong direction for combat fitness. I probably can't run 4 miles all that well anymore, but the other day I IMT'd in full kit while shooting for 800 meters up and back for five cycles, and never got winded. Tired, yes, but never got smoked or had to slow down, or had my shooting effected.

The Army needs to decide what it wants it's soldiers to be able to do in combat, and reverse engineer its PT plan and test from those requirements. That's not what the majority of the Army is doing now, and that's not what the CSM is proposing either. My .02.

Dusty
03-13-2012, 19:01
The Army needs to decide what it wants it's soldiers to be able to do in combat, and reverse engineer its PT plan and test from those requirements. My .02.

Pure logic. :cool:

ZonieDiver
03-13-2012, 22:15
I think part of his problem was that SGM's (or warrants) would spill coffee from their ever-present coffee cups while completing the shuttle run! :D

scooter
03-13-2012, 22:24
I think part of his problem was that SGM's (or warrants) would spill coffee from their ever-present coffee cups while completing the shuttle run! :D

Hey, I have an ever present coffee cup. Don't spill a drop. :lifter

33army
03-14-2012, 08:23
PM inbound Scooter