View Full Version : Old timers thoughts on the new generations
Ok, I know I may be asking for an execution here, but, I want to know what the older generations think of the young guys...and gals coming into the military these days. Me personally, the new soldiers coming in have a very poor attitude and a "you owe me something" perspective. I may not be as old as some people here but I've been in long enough to see a dramatic shift in the quality of soldiers. So, any opinions here?
Dozer523
12-28-2011, 08:56
I have been privledged.
I grew up in an Army family and lived on posts all over the world.
I joined the Army in 1979 and served on AD for 11 years.
During my break in service I observed my son's early career.
I was able to join the National Guard in 2004 and have served for 7 more and I will continue to mandatory retirement age, so I hope I have another 7 years in me.
I am blessed with a job teaching ROTC cadets.
In my experience young people who come into the Service have not changed a bit. They always join for the same reasons: patriotism, adventure, advancement.
The only thing that has changed over time is what the Army requires to join and what the Army does with them once they are in -- how they are trained, led, and treated.
I think my issue is that they have a serious lack of respect. For anyone. I had a soldier walk in my office and address me with "what's up man?". When I, and you I would presume, came in that would result in a serious face stomping. He tattled on me for being mean.:mad: Then I got an ass chewing for it.
"What's up man?" Isn't that the same as "pvt. so and so reporting as ordered"?
What's up? How about some extra duty, KP, or guard duty! They still have those, right?
Oh, and there are kids out there being brought up with some respect. Don't loose hope.
Dozer523
12-28-2011, 09:39
I think my issue is that they have a serious lack of respect. For anyone. I had a soldier walk in my office and address me with "what's up man?". When I, and you I would presume, came in that would result in a serious face stomping. He tattled on me for being mean.:mad: Then I got an ass chewing for it. Oh I'm sorry.:(
I thought you asked for my opinion. What you wanted was me to agree with you. Sorry, again.
This sounds like it really has less to do with him and a lot to do with you. You presumed wrong . . . again. And no they never addresss me that way (I'll wonder about that). So . . . you recieved an admonishment? . . . Details? Perhaps in your haste to get what you deserve you missed an opportunity to lead and train?
Consider the words of retiring Lieutenant General Fridovich.
“When you invest in people and underwrite their mistakes and you earn everyday their loyalty as best as you possibly can with your sincerity and your genuine nature when you do that you can’t but help make the organization better,” said Fridovich. “We are absolutely at our best when we understand and get the vision of the mission and are not interested in who gets the credit.”
Your situation seems to have presented you with an opportunity to prove your leadership skills. The military is a microcosm of society. There are many great individuals within the ranks of the US military and there are also some that are "not-so-great". However, they are trainable. I understand that some are deemend "unteachable" but that is because of their choices, it doesn't have to be because of yours.
Some people were never brought up to be accountable for their words or deeds. That's where it is incumbant upon you -- the leader -- to step up to the plate, recognize the opportunity to teach them -- and then do it. Make the most of the situation. You don't have to condone or allow their lack of respect, but be consistent in your discipline and make it a teaching -- leading -- experience. Some of your "worst cases" can often times bring out your "best leadership" opportunities. Be the leader you know you are to be and do your best with leading.
My apologies for not elaborating on the event. I did correct the soldier tactfully. I informed him that he needed to address me as Sgt or Staff Sgt as I had earned the rank and it is the proper and respectful way to address an NCO, especially when you have never met them prior to that. He responded with, " I didn't know you were a Staff Sgt and I don't just give respect. You have to earn it." <--Exact quote. I asked if he had ever heard of mutual respect or military customs and courtesies, by this time I was getting irritated. He told me that he went to college and has real life experience, and that in the real world that shit wouldn't fly....I may or may not have lost it at that point. I attempted to put him at parade pretty when his 1SG came by my door and saw the incident and that's when my ass chewing commenced. I was informed that I have no right to lecture the SPC as he is not my soldier and that I was out of line for assuming so. (Reason #1 I hate MI)........I may have lost my temper a bit but I don't think I was wrong in my actions.
On a side note, all the advice given is worthy of a book by itself.
Back around 1976ish we had a young SP4 who stepped in a pile of Shit and was told to report to the SGM.
This was in the old two story wood barracks on Smoke Bomb Hill and out team room door was just about across from the SGM's door.
As he entered the SGM's office the SGM started chewing ass until the lad piped up with "SGM if you'd just be at ease a minute............" The next sound we heard was the door slamming followed by some very, very ugly sounds. :D
blue02hd
12-28-2011, 15:21
Sorry guy, but when I read about a SSG who refers to himself as "long timer", the brakes lock up, the red flags fly, and I turn the volume down.
This is not a new or unique issue, well maybe to you but not to the Army. Blaming MI for this environment worked against your credibility. Your describing an issue that seems to be prevalent throughout your work space, and not limited to your cubicle. It's NOT unique to MI, as just about every unit has it's own issues.
The Army allows for multiple levels of corrective actions, counseling, training, and if need be discipline. How do you think the 1SG would view you if you incorrectly reprimanded the SPC? You lost your temper correct? Is that professional? From what I have read, I can see his/ her point. Lead by example?
Are you part of the solution, or part of the problem?
Thanks Blue, all points taken. I probably could have maintained my senses longer than I did.
Yes the issues do exist across the Army. I do feel that these types of issues are rather prevalent in my particular unit due to the fact that it is a joint environment and we essentially work for the NSA. I'm not blaming MI for this or NSA for that matter. Obviously the leadership plays the biggest factor here. I do think that a good majority of the soldiers here view themselves more as corporate employees than as soldiers. This has been slowly changing since I arrived through the efforts of some good NCO's and I would like to think myself.
As far as this situation goes, I wouldn't say I was a part of the problem but at the same time I didn't help matters.
And I apologize, I didn't mean to refer to myself as a "long timer". I'm not that old.
My apologies for not elaborating on the event. I did correct the soldier tactfully. I informed him that he needed to address me as Sgt or Staff Sgt as I had earned the rank and it is the proper and respectful way to address an NCO, especially when you have never met them prior to that. He responded with, " I didn't know you were a Staff Sgt and I don't just give respect. You have to earn it." <--Exact quote. I asked if he had ever heard of mutual respect or military customs and courtesies, by this time I was getting irritated. He told me that he went to college and has real life experience, and that in the real world that shit wouldn't fly....I may or may not have lost it at that point. I attempted to put him at parade pretty when his 1SG came by my door and saw the incident and that's when my ass chewing commenced. I was informed that I have no right to lecture the SPC as he is not my soldier and that I was out of line for assuming so. (Reason #1 I hate MI)........I may have lost my temper a bit but I don't think I was wrong in my actions.
On a side note, all the advice given is worthy of a book by itself.
Ft. Gordon isn't representative off all MI units and that agency doesn't understand leadership at all. The key, IMO, is to be a professional NCO: PT, uniform, tact (I suck at it still), knowledge of the regs, and the way you act as a soldier. The best way to command respect is to give it...especially when it's the most difficult (like getting your butt chewed).
Granted, I've had a few "Zup dude" from new guys in our Spt Co but after a short "teaching, coaching, and mentoring session" they usually get the picture.
Surgicalcric
12-28-2011, 17:15
A lil wall-to-wall with his team/squad leader would fix his shitty attitude.
Some people just need their ass beat.
Crip
The Reaper
12-28-2011, 17:28
A lil wall-to-wall with his team/squad leader would fix his shitty attitude.
Some people just need their ass beat.
Crip
Concur.
A wake up call is sometimes in order.
Maybe just asking him to close and lock the door would be enough.
Better be sure you can win first though.
TR
Better be sure you can win first though.
No issue there, guy looked like a strong wind could knock him over.
cat in the hat
12-28-2011, 20:40
This link hit most of the high points about many younger Americans including some soldiers.
http://takimag.com/article/bursting_gen_ys_bubble#axzz1hnNHjZvC
Personally I think that's what's wrong with the military these days. Everyone has to worry about being "politically correct". Screw that BS, chew his ass and let him know that disrespecting a superior will not be tolerated followed by some remedial training/extra duty. Personally I would have asked to talk to the 1SG in private and explain the same thing to him. If he tolerates that shit he's no better than the kid that approached you that way.
Again, too much political BULL SHIT in my opinion. Stop pussyfooting around the troops and LEAD.
One more reason why I NEVER wanted to make SGM. Too much politics for me.
This link hit most of the high points about many younger Americans including some soldiers.
http://takimag.com/article/bursting_gen_ys_bubble#axzz1hnNHjZvC
I disagree. We hear about the OWS crowd, but what about the ones like my oldest son. The one who joined the Marines in 2003 to serve his country? If there is a problem with this generation it is based on how we raised them to be.
If you as a parent raise your child to be self suffcient, they will be self sufficient. If you raise them to overcome adversity, they will. If you raise them to respect authority, they will.
Gen Y is raised for the most part by helicopter parents who were latchkey kids. If you as a latchkey kid learned that things don't come easy, you went outside to play with your friends instead of your parents setting up playdates, if you learned playing dodgeball built character, even if it hurt once in a while, then you will pass that on to your kids. If on the other hand you felt you were 'wronged' by being a latchkey kid, you will pass that on as well.
It is time we stop blaming 'society' for the pussification of this generation, and take a long hard look in the mirror and figure out what roll we played.
This generation is no different than the others that came before. We bitch about them just like our elders bitched about us.
Entire post
afchic,
You raise a very valid point, however, there is IMHO something to consider with regards to this generation that is coming of service age: They have grown up with this vast resource of information at their fingertips, a medium of cold impersonal communication which has led to a what some like to call the "disposable generation", from smart phones to relationships, dinnerware to respect, everything is disposable when convenient.
I am probably not much older than your son, I did not have Facebook, Myspace etc. during my formative teenage years; IRC, AIM, email and web based chat were in their infancy, and my parents instilled in me the understanding that it takes hard work to build something, and if it breaks, you fix it.
Granted many in my "generation" have embraced these technologies, and some have just never grown up. The point is: that short 7-12 year gap is like a lifetime in this frenzied age of information, and while one could argue that it is all relative, from Commodore64 to PS3 and Atari to Wii, the rapid rise in the availability of people and information has had a major impact on how this generation views people and the world in general.
My .002
Utah Bob
12-28-2011, 23:44
This generation is no different than the others that came before. We bitch about them just like our elders bitched about us.
And I believe Richard might say "And so it goes".;)
I agree afchic, this generation is the same for the most part. I do find it amusing that members of the same generation are calling the weaklings out. I joined in '03 as well. (I know, still a youngen) When I came in we had BS sessions about being locked out of the house and forced to play outside. Some people said that they never had that done to them.....and in general, they did not do that well.
Ok, since its going in that direction anyway. Lets make this discussion more about leadership in today's Army. I'll leave it open ended to keep it interesting and not push the conversation. :munchin
blue02hd
12-29-2011, 09:51
Ok, since its going in that direction anyway. Lets make this discussion more about leadership in today's Army. I'll leave it open ended to keep it interesting and not push the conversation. :munchin
Now your trolling, and trolling is not very well received in this house. Remember your audience young Jedi. If you have a question, ask. If you have a point then make it. Do not stir up the pot in an effort to latch onto a 30 second sound bite which most likely will be taken out of context.
Not only will the ADMINS not allow it, you might encourage others not familiar with our house rules to do the same.
Guymullins
12-29-2011, 10:44
In my country, we only relatively recently , adopted TV (mid 70s). This has enabled us to closely examine the differences between the non-TV generations and the with-TV generations. To qualify as an airborne soldier, one of the steps was to complete a two week PT course, which was the usual cement-block PT , running with telephone poles etc. for 12 hrs per day. A battery of individual tests were given at the beginning, midway and at the end of the 2 week period. The results of these tests were kept over the years and could be compared between the TV and non-TV troops. The difference was drastic and marked. In fact, the whole PT Course was eventually downgraded to cater for troops who had neither the stamina nor strength to complete the tests that came fairly easy to the non-TV troops. The first signs were that ambulances started following the troops on PT Course because so many suffered from heat exhaustion and other serious maladies. I spoke to the officer who had been in charge of airborne training for 30 years after the transition period and he said that the young troops simply didnt have the legs of the older troops. This, even though we remained a very sporting nation and every troop had participated in hard contact team sports before recruitment. One plus was that the younger troops had much better fine motor contol skills which aided them in operating some of the newer electronic equipment. The PT Course is now down to 3 Days and we are told that this is a scientific course and does not break the soldiers down like the old course.
Roger Blue. Warning shot acknowledged. Sincere apologies. Rucking up and moving out.
So...
Did you ever meet up with the 1SG one-on-one and have a civil chat over all this? If not, you could be missing out on the chance to learn some leadership techniques (both good and bad ones).
Negative Lindy, said 1SG was at sick call all day.
alright4u
12-29-2011, 18:22
Oh I'm sorry.:(
I thought you asked for my opinion. What you wanted was me to agree with you. Sorry, again.
This sounds like it really has less to do with him and a lot to do with you. You presumed wrong . . . again. And no they never addresss me that way (I'll wonder about that). So . . . you recieved an admonishment? . . . Details? Perhaps in your haste to get what you deserve you missed an opportunity to lead and train?
Consider the words of retiring Lieutenant General Fridovich.
“When you invest in people and underwrite their mistakes and you earn everyday their loyalty as best as you possibly can with your sincerity and your genuine nature when you do that you can’t but help make the organization better,” said Fridovich. “We are absolutely at our best when we understand and get the vision of the mission and are not interested in who gets the credit.”
I do not deal with junkies. What was the Gen hooked on? Were the pain killers oxycontin? Real men sweat that crap out even if an MD hooked them.
New generation? Generally speaking, of course, they're pretty much as maligned and underrated as my generation was by our elders.
However, with the right leadership and mentoring... ;)
And so it goes... **
Richard :munchin
** In honor of Utah Bob
alright4u
12-29-2011, 18:42
During one 24hour period our hero consumes dozens of them. He was a damn junkie.
Bob Howard was picking shrapnel out until he died. Roy Benavedes was about the same. Sorry, this Gen is not any real SF type to me.
Dozer523
12-29-2011, 20:53
I do not deal with junkies. What was the Gen hooked on? Were the pain killers oxycontin? Real men sweat that crap out even if an MD hooked them. Interesting. I was unaware he had a drug/dependency problem. The quote was from an article referring to his retirement. His statement seemed appropriate to this discussion. Not too many can stand in the shadows of Col Howard and MSG Benavedes much less beside them.
ref the dependency issue: http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2011-01-27-1Adruggeneral27_CV_N.htm
Scimitar
12-29-2011, 21:01
During one 24hour period our hero consumes dozens of them. He was a damn junkie.
Bob Howard was picking shrapnel out until he died. Roy Benavedes was about the same. Sorry, this Gen is not any real SF type to me.
I don't know,
Perhaps this speaks more to poor medical policy and procedures then the general character of those afflicted. It's VERY easy to become addicted to pain medication if you are not educated by medical personnel and not managed closely getting on them and then getting off them.
Many medical professionals are not well educated on pain management at all.
Just my $0.02 worth
S
You can lead a horse to water but sometimes they are to ignorant to get the hint so you have to put them down. I have had hard case soldiers that took a few "counseling" sessions but eventually got it. I have also had a soldier or two that just didn't/couldn't grasp the concept. Counseling, mentoring, extra duty, physical training, border line wall to wall counseling and they still didn't get it. One was lost in the sauce to the point that he actually CALLED the INSCOM CSM and filed a complaint against his chain of command.....the entire chain. Granted this individual is no longer in the Army but he is an example of the handfuls of street scum that have managed to fake the funk. On the other hand, I have had the fortune of encountering some soldiers that make putting up with the idiots worth while.
You can lead a horse to water but sometimes they are to ignorant to get the hint so you have to put them down. I have had hard case soldiers that took a few "counseling" sessions but eventually got it. I have also had a soldier or two that just didn't/couldn't grasp the concept. Counseling, mentoring, extra duty, physical training, border line wall to wall counseling and they still didn't get it. One was lost in the sauce to the point that he actually CALLED the INSCOM CSM and filed a complaint against his chain of command.....the entire chain. Granted this individual is no longer in the Army but he is an example of the handfuls of street scum that have managed to fake the funk. On the other hand, I have had the fortune of encountering some soldiers that make putting up with the idiots worth while.
Now THAT sounds like MI! :p I had similar experiences at San Angelo but I can say it's been a very different experience in units where MI soldiers are the minority.
Dozer523
12-29-2011, 21:32
You can lead a horse to water but sometimes they are to ignorant to get the hint so you have to put them down. I have had hard case soldiers that took a few "counseling" sessions but eventually got it. I have also had a soldier or two that just didn't/couldn't grasp the concept. Counseling, mentoring, extra duty, physical training, border line wall to wall counseling and they still didn't get it. One was lost in the sauce to the point that he actually CALLED the INSCOM CSM and filed a complaint against his chain of command.....the entire chain. Granted this individual is no longer in the Army but he is an example of the handfuls of street scum that have managed to fake the funk. On the other hand, I have had the fortune of encountering some soldiers that make putting up with the idiots worth while. I simply can't imagine how you put up with all this. ALL this in just eight years -- less actually, just NCO time. It must just be wearing you down. No wonder you might have lost your cool. But thank goodness for that last sentence, I retain some faith/hope.
You need to get your SF packet in right away.
MTN Medic
12-29-2011, 21:54
I do not deal with junkies. What was the Gen hooked on? Were the pain killers oxycontin? Real men sweat that crap out even if an MD hooked them.
Disagree completely. This seems like some last hard class hogwash. If you want to put ANYONE next to Benevides or the like, they are going to pale in comparison.
You can lead a horse to water but sometimes they are to ignorant to get the hint so you have to put them down. I have had hard case soldiers that took a few "counseling" sessions but eventually got it. I have also had a soldier or two that just didn't/couldn't grasp the concept. Counseling, mentoring, extra duty, physical training, border line wall to wall counseling and they still didn't get it. One was lost in the sauce to the point that he actually CALLED the INSCOM CSM and filed a complaint against his chain of command.....the entire chain. Granted this individual is no longer in the Army but he is an example of the handfuls of street scum that have managed to fake the funk. On the other hand, I have had the fortune of encountering some soldiers that make putting up with the idiots worth while.
Have you seen the thread available here (http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15663)?
Second, are you aware that following the Civil War certain elements within the Army became so adept at heaping criticism on both rank and file soldiers as well as American society that many civilians started to lose confidence in all soldiers? Navalists capitalized on this growing sensibility to promote the expansion of the American navy at the army's expense.
Third, did you know that this strife within the army undermined its ability to respond to the navalist's arguments,* or to prepare for its next war as effectively as possible?**
Then again, does history repeat itself?#
__________________________________________________ ________
* E.L. Zalinski, "The Future of Warfare," North American Review, 151:409 (December 1890): 688-700; Thomas F. Edwards, "Is Our Nation Defenseless?" North American Review 152:413 (March 1891): 381-384; John Gibbon, "Needed Reforms in the Army," North American Review 156 (1893): 212-227.
** William T. Sherman, "Military Law," Journal of the Military Service Institution, 1:2 (April 1880): 130-132; A.A. Woodhull, "The Enlisted Soldier," Journal of the Military Service Institution, 8:29 (1887): 18-68; Russell Gilmore, "'The New Courage': Rifles and Soldier Individualism, 1876-1918," Military Affairs 40:3 (October 1976): 97-99.
# IMO/FWIW, the answer is clearly "no." This time around, it will be the USAF that benefits.
I was unaware of that thread. My search prior to posting was obviously not thorough enough. Very good thread and I now have both FM's concerning leadership in my possession. I'm going to hide in a hole and read for a while.
alright4u
12-30-2011, 11:36
Disagree completely. This seems like some last hard class hogwash. If you want to put ANYONE next to Benevides or the like, they are going to pale in comparison.
I know just regular SOG 10's who were SSG's and SFC's in 67-69 who have refused to take pain meds. One has a back as bad as the Gen, and; he refuses to take pain pills anymore. Try a recon Company CO who was shot through his WP grenade that burned for hours. He still lives in pain. None of us in Vietnam were given morphine or talwin for more then a day or two following GSW's and initial debridgement. Add the delayed closure some two weeks later or so and again no pain pills. I can tell you I had clotted bandages ripped off every day. That did not justify pain meds. I am no hard ass nor do I like pain.
I know all about a bad frigging back. Try marked severe right and marked severe left sided lumbar stenosis. Five doxen oxycontin pills in 24 hours is attempted suicide. The SOB is mental, too.
33, I'm surprised the command did not stand behind you, and surprised that other NCO's did not handle this at level, between you and his NCO. Work something out, or discuss and solve the problem. Would this have been possible? Or if a similar situation arises in the future would it be possible then? Seems there was a lot of ass chewing going on that may have not been needed?
ZonieDiver
12-30-2011, 19:42
I have limited experience with current soldiers, though those I have seen seem to be great. (Granted, they are all SF or SF Support.)
However, if the current generation of HS students who will fill the ranks of the military are any indication, from those I have seen, all will be okay. Sure there are "slackers" - but there is a large number at the "high end" who seem to be those interested in serving in the military and they are great.
Sometimes, from my experience as an NCO in airborne infantry, leg infantry support, and MI reserve units, the reaction you get from the troopies is directly proportional to the image you present to them - all the time.